Democratic Primary Forum: Adriano Espaillat and Darializa Avila Chevalier

Brian Lehrer: Next Tuesday night, WNYC's Bridget Bergin and NY1's Errol Louis and I will co-moderate a debate among the five Democrats running for Jerrold Nadler's seat as he retires from that Manhattan district. We'll play excerpts here the next morning if you can't tune in Tuesday night. Now, we turn to New York's 13th congressional district in Upper Manhattan in the Bronx, where the incumbent, Adriano Espaillat is being challenged by activist Darializa Avila Chevalier, who has the backing of Mayor Mamdani and the Democratic Socialists of America. Chevalier had previously worked on Mamdani's mayoral campaign. Espaillat had endorsed Andrew Cuomo in the mayoral primary.

Avila Chevalier attended Columbia undergrad and is now studying for a doctorate in sociology at the CUNY Graduate center, for a little bit of bio, and working as an investigator for the group Neighborhood Defender Services of Harlem. Congressman Espaillat has represented the district since 2017. He served in the state legislature before that. He is chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, and was the first formerly undocumented immigrant elected to the House of Representatives. I imagine they'll talk more about each of their respective bios and records as we go.

The 13th congressional district covers East Harlem and the northernmost parts of the Upper West side, then up through the rest of northern Manhattan and the adjacent area of the Bronx, including Morris Heights, University Heights, Kingsbridge Heights, Bedford Park and Fordham. According to Data USA, the population of the district is about 50% Latino, about a quarter Black, about 15% white, and a third foreign born. Within those categories, we will use Mr. Ms. as we do in these formats, not people's titles. Mr. Espaillat, Ms. Avila Chevalier, welcome and thanks very much for engaging in this forum and in our electoral process. Hello.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Hi. Thanks so much for having us, Brian.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having us, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, the format for this forum will be like last week's for the 10th and 17th congressional district primaries. It'll be informal and conversational, not a formal debate. I'll post questions and try to moderate in good faith. Listeners, you can pose some questions too by calling in or texting 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We do have some guidelines. First priority will to to undecided voters in the district. If you're undecided and plan to vote in this primary, we encourage you to call in with a question, 212-433-WNYC. Whoever calls or texts, we ask that you come with questions, not speeches or endorsements, the candidates can argue their positions for themselves.

Our screeners will ask you to identify if you support one or the other or are undecided. We know some of you fake that. Whether you're from, in or out of the district, whatever you are is okay. We just want to be as transparent as we can about who we're putting on. Undecided's first priority from those parts of Manhattan and the Bronx, but anyone else, too. 212-433-WNYC. If you have a question for these candidates, 212-433-9692, call or text.

As we've all agreed, we will have no opening statements. We will have closing statements at the end. Ms. Avila Chevalier, Mr. Espaillat is the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. He was the first formerly undocumented immigrant member of Congress. Kind of a household name in the district. Why challenge a sitting incumbent with community credentials like those?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: First of all, thanks again, Brian, for having us. When you grow up as the daughter of Dominican immigrants and you watch your parents work multiple jobs and still struggle to make ends meet, you watch your neighbors get pushed out of their homes, watch politicians blame our communities instead of the corporations that are robbing us blind, all the while continuing to send our tax dollars to drop bombs on babies. You organize and you fight back. That's what I've been doing my entire adult life.

I'm running because this community deserves a representative who actually shows up for them. Not for the wealthy, the well connected, but for all of us. I'm a teacher. I'm an Afro Latina organizer who's tired of the establishment politics that has always looked at this community and seen statistics instead of people. I've been fighting for immigration justice my entire adult life. I've been fighting for our community my entire adult life. I'm tired of a politics that has always seen us as problems to be managed instead of as people worth fighting for. That ends on June 23rd.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, your response?

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me. Thank you to your listeners for being in. Look, I'm a progressive who brings results. I'm a progressive who gets it. I'm in the top 5% of the most progressive members of Congress. I've been endorsed by Planned Parenthood, by the League of Conservation Voters, by Stonewall. I bring results. I brought in the Second Avenue Subway, $7.7 billion, to connect Harlem and East Harlem to the rest of the world. I finally deliver the Kingsbridge Armory, which was sitting there idle while people waited for broken promises. I defend immigrants because I am an immigrant.

It was in my house that they came knocking looking for my sister. It was me that had to go back to the Dominican Republic to get my green card. Had I not gotten my green card, I would have been stuck over there. I know firsthand what it is to be undocumented, to be afraid. My grandmother used to tell me as a kid, "Watch out when you go outside and you see somebody coming towards you, because that may be the migra."

No one could tell me about this. I know this firsthand. I've gotten results for my district. I continue to fight for my district. I'm a new voice. I'm an undocumented member of a formerly undocumented member of Congress and the first elected Dominican American in the nation. I will continue to fight for that seat at the table.

Brian Lehrer: I think what we're hearing here already is a basic debate about who's going to be most effective to do a lot of things that, for the most part, the two of you agree on. I think effectiveness is a main issue here between you. Ms. Avila Chevalier, would you like to continue on that? You heard some of the things that Mr. Espaillat said he has accomplished. Continue to make the case that you would be more effective with for these constituents over the next two years than he would.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I don't think it's even only about effectiveness. I think it's also about what are we calling a progressive? To me, it doesn't make sense to call oneself a progressive, but refuse to sign on to the Block the Bombs Act, to refuse to sign on to the Homes Act, the Tenants Right to Organize Act, the Raise the Wage Act, the Social Security Expansion Act, the Ultra Millionaire Tax Act.

I'm running because my community deserves a representative of who will fight tooth and nail on all of these issues, who will make sure that we are protecting our community from ICE by abolishing it, and who isn't shying away from that term. Who will sign on to the Melt ICE act, who actually has been successful in getting folks out of ICE detention, and who actually shows up for our community when they need them.

When my friend Mahmoud Khalil was kidnapped off the streets of our district, the incumbent had nothing but two sentences about DOJ following rule of law, which they actively were not doing by taking him to begin with. When his Family and our friends went to his office to ask for his support, they were turned away. It matters to me that when we have people calling themselves progressives, that they're actually fighting for progressive policies, that they're actually signing on to these acts that better the lives of our community. That when our people in our district need their support, that they show up for them, that they're present, that they do everything they can to make sure that they are with them on the hardest days of their lives so that they can support them into something better.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, your opponent is saying it's not just about effectiveness. It is about what it means to call yourself a progressive. She listed a number of bills there that she said you would not have voted for. How do you respond to that? There's a number of things in there. I know you can't cite each one, but maybe cite a couple. Why weren't you on some of those bills?

Adriano Espaillat: Look, Brian, my district is not a one-issue district. Many issues are important to my constituents. Just last night, late last night, we were working until 12:00 midnight, I passed an amendment in the Appropriations Committee that protected mixed status families who are in NYCHA, in Section 8, housing that were going to be split apart. The Republicans were pushing to split a mixed status family apart and deny them basic services, basic benefits.

I passed an amendment in a Republican-controlled committee to prevent that. That's results. When I went to court and I sued Donald Trump to have members of Congress have access to detention centers as is stated in the Constitution, we won. As a result, I was able to go to the detention center in Newark, the Delaney Hall, and supervise and hold them accountable. Finally--

Brian Lehrer: I want to get to the specific charge here. Ms. Avila Chevalier, I'll go back to you for a minute. Do you want to maybe focus on one or two of those bills that you cited before, maybe some of the domestic ones? We'll get to foreign policy and the Middle east as a separate topic and make him defend.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Thank you. The thing is that the incumbent is saying that I'm focusing on one issue. I cited bills on numerous issues on immigration, on labor, on affordability, on housing, on health care that he hasn't signed on to. the Prescription Drug Relief Act, for example, the Homes Act, the Tenants Rights to Organize Act, the Raise the Wage Act, the Social Security Expansion Act, the Ultra Millionaire Tax Act.

Brian Lehrer: Let's stop right there. Mr. Espaillat, if she's accurately characterizing that you did not sign on to those proposals, why not in some of those cases?

Adriano Espaillat: Brian, I have been the leading voice to get rid of ICE. I think, unfortunately, my opponent gets caught up in the semantics of abolish versus dismantle.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I didn't even mention [unintelligible 00:11:03].

Adriano Espaillat: [crosstalk] allow abolish versus--

Brian Lehrer: We'll go one at a time. You'll both get plenty of time. Go ahead, Mr. Espaillat.

Adriano Espaillat: We're going to get rid of ICE. That begins by clawing back the money that Trump allocated for them. I have been the leading voice as chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus in getting rid of ICE, and I faced them head on. I've introduced legislation to get rid of ICE for years, and I will continue to do that to try to dismantle them. I went to Georgia and we shut down a privately-owned detention center right in the middle of the pandemic in Irwin, Georgia, and we're going to shut down Delaney Hall. That's what I do. I bring results to my district. I am in most of the progressive, if not all the progressive, legislation that is important to my constituency, and I will continue to fight for that seat at the table.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Avila Chevalier, you were trying to get in there. Go ahead.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think it's not lost on me that I mentioned bills on all these other issues that were unrelated to immigration, and those were not. There was no response to that. To the question of abolishing ICE, he has still not signed on to the Melt ICE Act. I find it really concerning that he would characterize himself as someone who's leading the charge on this when it wasn't until I saw a mailer recently where he said abolish for the first time. These are not semantics. These words matter. What we're fighting for matters.

For someone who is claiming to be leading the charge on this issue, but has voted for over $7 billion to fund ICE, I think that is really concerning. It's a really concerning claim. To say that, "Oh, you're going to Delaney," that is the job of the incumbent. That is literally his role as a congressman. I am someone who has been organizing around immigration justice my entire adult life. I've been at these detention centers. Not when there was a camera, not when I was being challenged, not when people thought it was popular to do that, but because communities needed me. Families wanted folks who knew how to organize to be able to reunite them.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take a phone call that's ICE-related. Here's Erica in El Barrio, as she identifies it, East Harlem. Erica, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Erica: Hi. I'm a longtime voter in East Harlem and El Barrio where we have a Puerto Rican Black and heavily immigrant population. I do remember when the congressman was an assembly member that he worked to undo the vestiges of The Rockefeller Drug Laws, and I really appreciate that. I do want to know, should Trump push an assault on our community on New York City, what are the steps that you're going to take to make sure that this doesn't turn to Minneapolis or what's happening presently in Jersey?

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, you can go first because your opponent had the last word.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you. I do remember, The Rockefeller Drug Laws [unintelligible 00:14:15] to get rid of mandatory minimums that were incarcerating people for over 50 years. That was disastrous, for me to say the least. [unintelligible 00:14:25]--

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, let me just say that your line is breaking up there. We may need to call you back or I don't know if it's about positioning where you are, but suddenly you're breaking up pretty badly. My producer is going to see if we can reconnect more effectively. Ms. Avila Chevalier, you'll get to answer Erica's question first.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think there are all levels of government that we need to be working with on this issue. At the city level, the stance has been made very clear. This is a sanctuary city and we will be fighting back. It also requires federal partners to be able to actually hold the line on where we are standing on these issues. If we are not being bold in our stance against ICE, how can we trust that our federal partners and the people who represent us in Washington are going to work effectively with people in the city and state level who are also trying to protect our immigrant communities?

I'll say also, there's an issue of accountability here. When you are taking donations from the very institutions that also fund President Trump and Republicans and far right anti immigrant politicians, it is concerning to think that that is someone who is accountable to the communities in New York who care deeply about their immigrant neighbors, who are themselves immigrants, who are people who have been subjected to the violence of ICE. I think there is a real issue here around consistency and willingness to fight.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, I see we have you back now. Remember, the caller's question was, what if there is an ICE surge, sort of Minneapolis style? Why would you be more effective in dealing with that?

Adriano Espaillat: Because this is very personal to me. They came for my sister, Brian, in my apartment not once, but twice. I know what this is about. I went to Minneapolis, I went to Chicago and developed a 10 point preparation plan for communities, including safety corridors for people to be able to be protected if they got harassed by ICE. Soft lockdown in schools where ICE agents were patrolling in their grounds. Legal services, of course, and ICE watch. Many issues that will respond to how a community must react. I know this firsthand because I lived it, and I have been the leading voice on immigration issues across the country.

I will continue to fight like I did last night to stop the Trump administration from denying basic benefits to mixed status family. I went to court and got the court to allow us to go into detention center. I will present tomorrow legislation that would allow all governors to go into privately-owned detention centers. Immigration is joined at the hip to Congressman Espaillat. That's why the Progressive Caucus endorsed me. Many of the leading progressive entities across the nation have also endorsed my re-election. I will continue to fight for immigrants.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take another immigration-related question. Let me just keep this moving. [unintelligible 00:17:52] had a lot of say on that. You may get an opportunity in response to this question as well from Sami in Central Harlem. Sami, you're on WNYC with Adriano Espaillat and his opponent, Darializa Avila Chevalier, running for the nomination for Congress from the 13th congressional district. Hi, Sami.

Sami: Hey, Brian. Thanks so much for having me. I'm a longtime listener, first time caller. I've volunteered with asylum seekers for over 10 years. My question is for you, Adriano. According to FEC filings, you've taken over $130,000 in donations from different ICE contractors. I'm wondering why people who work with migrants, why we should trust you to be able to fight against Trump's weaponization of immigration enforcement?

Adriano Espaillat: Mr. Espaillat.

Adriano Espaillat: I have a proven record to fight ICE, and I have a proven record to fight Donald Trump. I'm only accountable to the people that I represent. That has been my record throughout the years. Again, I have a constituency that needs those services. My office has helped over 700 cases a year, sensitive cases of deportations. People that are about to be deported go to my office and we fight on a daily basis and we win.

I took Trump to court, not just to get access to the detention center, we stopped the IRS from getting and sharing sensitive tax information of ITIN tax-- people that we do their taxes through The ITIN number. We stopped the airlines from selling sensitive and confidential passenger information twice. We've fought and we won, and we're going to continue to fight.

Brian Lehrer: I hear what you're saying, all those things about your record. To the caller specific claim that you took $130,000 from ICE contractors. Is that true or is that false?

Adriano Espaillat: There's no record of me having votes attached to any of the folks that have contributed to my campaign. My opponent just took a ton of money from a millionaire in Texas, and I only respond to the constituents that I service. That's my primary objective in being in Congress, and they recognize that. That's why I get the support of people like NARAL, Stonewall, and other progressive organizations.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Avila Chevalier, you want to respond to that? That's a lot of things in his record when it comes to ICE.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think the fact that the caller pointed out that over $130,000 in donations from ICE contractors, that is reflected in policy. The fact that he has voted for over $7 billion in ICE funding is a reflection of that. When I talk about money accountability, that is what I'm talking about. It's how the money you take from these PACs, from these contractors, from these corporations, how that is reflected in the policy that we're enacting.

To say, again, that he has been showing up for communities when in the most high profile case in the country of my friend Mahmoud, he refused to meet with his family, refused to meet with our friends, in a time where Trump was saying that he would be used as the blueprint for how ICE would be weaponized against immigrants across this country. That to me, speaks volumes.

If Espaillat can say he understands because it was his sister situation, why was he not empathetic to Mahmoud's situation? Why was he not empathetic of the fact that eight days after Mahmoud was taken, 200 Venezuelan migrants were shipped off to a concentration camp in El Salvador? To me, it behooves me to think, like, why do we have a representative who holds this title as the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus and yet does not have the foresight or the empathy to understand the impact of a case like someone like Mahmoud, who was his constituent, on immigrants across the country.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, do you have any difference? She's saying you refuse to meet with them. Do you have any difference with your opponent on the Mahmoud Khalil case?

Adriano Espaillat: That's false, Brian. I met with Mr. Khalil and his attorneys. In fact, records show that my opponent has taken money from Palantir.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: This is patently false.

Adriano Espaillat: Palantir is the--

Darializa Avila Chevalier: This is patently false.

Adriano Espaillat: Palantir is a-

Darializa Avila Chevalier: This is a blatant lie.

Adriano Espaillat: -collaborator in importing thousands of immigrants, and she has taken money from Palantir.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: This is a blatant lie.

Adriano Espaillat: I fight every single day--

Brian Lehrer: One at a time.

Adriano Espaillat: I fight every single day on behalf of the immigrant. I'm an immigrant myself. I'm the first formerly undocumented member of Congress, and I continue to be that voice, every single day.

Brian Lehrer: She denies that she took money from Palantir. Where is there evidence?

Adriano Espaillat: Reports show that in fact she took that money. I went to Mexico, Brian, to meet a family.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Can we cite the source?

Adriano Espaillat: I went to Mexico to meet a family that was deported with four immigrant kids-- four US-citizen kids.

Brian Lehrer: I did ask you a specific question about your allegation about her and Palantir.

Adriano Espaillat: She's taking money from Palantir. I went to Mexico to defend-

Darializa Avila Chevalier: This is a blatant lie.

Adriano Espaillat: -four US-born children that were deported as a family.

Brian Lehrer: I think you're just going to have a factual dispute on this right now. Ms. Avila Chevalier, briefly on this one more time.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: This is a blatant lie. I do not take money from corporations. I only take money from individual donors. The average contribution to our campaign has been $55. People donate to our campaign because they believe in the vision that we've put forth. Typical of my opponent, he is lying, straight up lying to use divide and conquer tactics to distract us from the truth. The truth that he is scared that he won't be able to profit from the very corporations and the corporate donors that have been funding him his entire time in office. If he no longer holds power because they're funding him that they-- people are now recognizing that that is where his loyalties lie. He's worried about that.

Brian Lehrer: Now, may I ask you to back up that allegation? What do you mean he's carrying the water for corporate donors? Like how?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: The very contractors that we just discussed, that caller brought in to note that over $130,000 in contractors that support ICE, and the real estate--

Brian Lehrer: Where's the policy that supports them?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: The fact that he has voted to fund over $7 billion towards ICE. We can talk about real estate, and the way that he takes money from real estate corporations that are pricing people out of the city in a time when, in the second poorest congressional district in the state and by some measures of the country, it costs $4,000 for a two bedroom in Harlem, Washington Heights. That is considered affordable. That is not affordable to anybody here. That's reflected in policy--

Brian Lehrer: I'll ask you one follow up. What could you do more on housing that he hasn't done as a member of Congress.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: For one, we could sign on to the Homes Act to make sure that we are actually fighting for dignified housing. We can sign to the--

Brian Lehrer: What does that do?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: The Homes Act was introduced by AOC. It will expand access to public housing across the country and make it so that people can actually live in affordable dignified housing. We would also sign on to the Tenants Right to Organize Act, because currently, only NYCHA residents have the federally protected right to organize. We would also make sure that we're actually bringing in the funding necessary to support NYCHA residents so that they can actually get the repairs necessary to live in dignified home.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, she's mentioned those two things a few times now, the Homes Act and the Tenants Right to Organize Act and says that you did not support those or sign on to those in some ways. Do you support those two bills?

Adriano Espaillat: Yes, I am on the Tenants to Right to Organize. She's lying. I'm on that bill. Let me tell you something else. She continues to get money from corporate sources. She got over a million dollars. Anybody can check the recent infusion of over a million dollars into her campaign coming from a millionaire in Texas. NYCHA, we're fighting for NYCHA funding every single day. We're fighting to make sure the roofs are fixed, that elevators are repaired, that boilers are repaired, that capital projects are addressed in each and every one of the NYCHA complexes in my district. We will continue to-- I met just recently with a group of leaders for NYCHA. We'll continue to meet with them on the ground to ensure that their needs are met.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Avila Chevalier, just one more thing on an allegation that you made a few times that he voted for many billions of dollars for ICE funding. His response in the past has been, I believe, that he's voted for broad spending bills, or I've seen it described in the press this way, that those items were in broad spending bills that include money for ICE, but many other things. Are you saying that you would always vote no on all broad congressional spending bills that might include many things you do support if ICE funding is also in them?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I'd be in coordination, obviously, with my community around these types of bills. Many people have also voted against these bills on the basis of the ICE funding that was in them. You don't have to vote yes just because you're in Congress. It's your duty as a representative to think about the consequences that these bills have on the people in your district and people across the country.

Also, I just would like to know, I have no idea what he's talking about with this million dollar contribution. I only take contributions from individuals where the max donation is $3,500. I do not know where this claim is coming from. The fact that we have a sitting member of Congress who is repeatedly lying about a constituent of his, which is what I am, a constituent of his whom he's refused to meet with. This is the first time that we've had a substantive conversation in the over 14 years I've been organizing in this district. I think is reflective of the type of divisive leadership that we've had for far too long.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to take a break. Then we'll continue with more with these two candidates.

Adriano Espaillat: Brian, there was a recent New York Times article--

Brian Lehrer: Very briefly, Mr. Espaillat.

Adriano Espaillat: There was a recent New York Times article that says that she's taking dark money. Now, I am for having a robust discussion about campaign finance reform. I was endorsed by ending Citizens United. If anybody goes into the New York Times page, they will see that recently they reported that she's taking dark money from a millionaire in Texas.

Brian Lehrer: You have a factual dispute on that, as with some of your donations. We're going to take a break and continue this New York 13 Democratic congressional primary debate. Stay with us.

[music]

Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with our candidates forum with the two competitors for the Democratic nomination for Congress in New York's 13th congressional district in upper Manhattan and the Bronx, where the incumbent, Adriano Espaillat is being challenged by activist Darializa Avila Chevalier, who has the backing of Mayor Mamdani and the Democratic Socialists of America, among other things. Congressman Espaillat has the Congressional Progressive Caucus and others.

We're talking through a number of issues. Just Ms. Avila Chevalier, to close the loop on what Mr. Espaillat had brought up before the break, that New York Times story that he referred to, we looked it up and it says a super PAC created as a counterweight to powerful pro-Israel advocacy groups, has pledged to spend $2 million in New York to support a pair of candidates challenging Democratic House incumbents from the left and a third progressive Democrat running for an open seat. I guess you're one of those challengers, and that's the super PAC he was referring to, which sounds like it's not money from an individual, as you were saying before. One more explanation on that?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Again, you would have to ask them. I learned about this spending in the New York Times along with the rest of the country. I think that it makes sense after seeing the hundreds of millions of dollars that AIPAC has sent corrupting our elections, last year, when they were the single largest source of Republican donor spending in Democratic primaries, it makes sense that there are Democratic donors out there who, just like Democratic voters, want to fight back against AIPAC and its influence over our democracy.

I want to be very clear that unlike my opponent, I don't take a dime of corporate PAC money, unlike him, who has raked it in from real estate developers raising the prices here in New York, and from AIPAC, which is an Israel lobby that is sending our country to war, a war that is costing us a billion dollars a day in Iran and slaughtering schoolgirls while our own children here are hungry, while they are facing homelessness at an incredible rate.

We have a poverty rate in this district of 26%. The childhood poverty rate here is 40%. That is such a deeply, deeply depressing statistic. The fact that our resources keep going towards bombing communities abroad instead of investing in our babies here should be deeply shameful to every single person who has enacted the policies that make that our reality. Our campaign, it's powered by grassroots donors. We have outraised him with an average contribution of $55. Last quarter, we outraised him because people see his politics has [unintelligible 00:32:10].

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to end this part of it here and go on. You raised the Middle East. You said, spending money on the war, including activities that bomb children, rather than spending on the district. I'm going to take another caller who wants to go further into the Middle east policy question. I'll note that so far we've taken a caller who appeared genuinely undecided. We took one who was critical of Espaillat. I think this one's going to be critical of Avila Chevalier. It's Alicia in West Harlem. You're on WNYC. Hello, Alicia.

Alicia: Yes, good morning. I have a question for Darializa. Why hasn't she condemned hammers at previous-- at a forum early this year? Why would she tweet F Kamala Harris when you're supposed to support people, especially your own, and women?

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Avila Chevalier.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I believe, again, in the right of all people to live in safety and dignity. What I will not do is let a question be used to distract us from the documented reality that over hundreds of thousands of people, Palestinians specifically, have been killed. That our country is sending money towards a country and weapons that is being used to kill people indiscriminately, and that my opponent takes money from that lobby.

As far as I know, the US does not send a single dime to Hamas. What we fund is the Israeli military. While, yes, I do condemn Hamas, the problem is that our country, the thing that we can control, is where our money and our tax dollars are going. Right now, it is going towards indiscriminate slaughter. There is no safety for anybody in the region so long as we continue to fund that kind of slaughter, so long as we continue to fund apartheid, so long as we continue to accept a system that sees the human life of one person as less worthy than the human life of another.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, would you distinguish yourself from her on the issue of funding for Israel's military in your past record or going forward from this point?

Adriano Espaillat: Look, Brian, I stand by my record because I have a record. The fact of the matter is that her records are her tweets. Why would she erase her tweets? This was not 20 years ago, 15 years ago.

Brian Lehrer: I will ask about her tweets in a minute.

Adriano Espaillat: This is just a couple of years ago.

Brian Lehrer: I know the caller brought it up too. I'm asking you if you are different today on funding, with US Dollars, military aid to Israel, either offensive or even defensive weapons. I know there's an array of positions on that now within the Democrats in Congress. What's yours?

Adriano Espaillat: I am for peace in the region. I am for supporting humanitarian aid to Gaza. I am for not expansion of the settlements. I am for bringing peace to the region, and that begins through a robust diplomatic effort.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, but the question was US military aid to Israel yes, no, or sometimes.

Adriano Espaillat: I will not give one additional, Brian-

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Sorry, Brian, I'm having a hard time hearing. I'm not hearing any [unintelligible 00:35:39].

Adriano Espaillat: -to an ill-fated war. There needs to be peace in the region. We start by supporting to ensure that there's humanitarian aid to Gaza and that we have a peace for both sides in the region, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, but is that to say you would also continue to support both offensive as well as defensive weapons for Israel?

Adriano Espaillat: I will continue to ensure that there is no expansion of the settlements. I will continue to ensure that victims on both sides get humanitarian aid. I will continue to ensure that not one penny goes to the ill-fated Iran war that's being perpetrated by Trump. I will continue to fight for peace in the region.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Avila Chevalier, were you able to hear that answer? We have a problem with her line? Are we getting her reconnected? Okay, so we're going to need a second on that.

Adriano Espaillat: Brian, this is an opportunity to state that my record stands on its own.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Adriano Espaillat: My record stands its own, I have accomplished many things, including the expansion of the Second Avenue Subway for East Harlem and Harlem. The Kingsbridge Armory stood idle there, forgotten, broken promises for people in the Bronx. We were able to get millions of dollars to make that the potential of the economic engine for the northwest Bronx, funding for a future first class cultural center for northern Manhattan.

I have gotten the ecologically friendly development of the waterfront both in the Hudson side and in the Harlem Riverside. These are real accomplishments. These are my results that I run on and that the people understand that they've been working with me to accomplish these things. She has no record. Her record are her tweets. Yes, that's part of the debate. This did not happen 10 years ago. This didn't happen 15 years ago. This happened a year or two ago.

Brian Lehrer: When we reconnect her line, I'm going to ask her about these past posts that have been in the news. However, we are having a problem with Ms. Avila Chevalier's line. We're going to take a very short break while we try to rectify that, and then she'll get the next words. Stay with us.

[music]

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. I think we've rectified our audio problem. Apologies, listeners, for that. Apologies to Darializa Avila Chevalier, the challenger of Congressman Adriano Espaillat in the upper Manhattan and Bronx 13th congressional district Democratic primary. Ms. Chevalier, he was starting to raise your past posts, and there's been some reporting about past social media posts. The caller who we had on a few minutes ago brought up one of them as well.

According to CNN, for example, during a three-day period in September 2021, you reposted, now deleted messages, declaring, "Yes, literally abolish the border," and that, "All deportation is wrong." The one the caller referenced, F using the full word, Kamala Harris after she told Guatemalans not to come to the US illegally in 2021. On policing in 2020, that abolishing the police, "Means ending the police full stop, period. No more police at all, ever." I know you've said you've grown considerably in the years since these tweets. What's your position now, for example, on how much to abolish the border or when deportation is right?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: As you've noted, I've grown considerably since that. I'm not interested in relitigating the politics of my tweets, which are politics of the past. I'm interested in representing this district on the issues that they face day in and day out, and the fact that we've seen so much, quite frankly, obsession with these tweets, as opposed to the substance of what we're fighting for and the substance of this campaign and what the working people of this district deserve, I think is more of the same type of politic that refuses to actually engage with us, that refuses to actually acknowledge the needs of our communities.

Brian Lehrer: You can both be judged partly on your records, and I'm acknowledging that you said you've grown considerably since those tweets, which were 2020 and 2021. What is your new position, therefore, on how much to, "Abolish the border," or, "All deportation is wrong."

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I'm someone who has studied, as a PhD candidate, immigration. This is something that I have been spending years taking a deep dive into and to try to fully understand on a policy level, on a social theory level, from a sociological perspective. I do believe that deportation is wrong. I believe that because it is about punishing people on the basis of where they were born. That is not something that we do--

Brian Lehrer: All deportation, including of people who came here illegally and committed violent acts? Just trying to see where the line is, based on your previous position.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: We have a criminal justice system that exists. It is imperfect, but it exists. The fact that we subject people who are both born here and those who aren't to that, and then differentiate when it comes to after they've faced that criminal system and place them into immigration detention and subject them to deportation on the basis of where they were born, is deeply discriminatory.

Folks who have already gone through a criminal system, who have paid their debt to society, who, for so many, are just trying to restabilize themselves and be back in their communities, that they are subjected to a form of punishment that people who are born here are not subjected to is a violation of a principle of equality for everyone, regardless of where they were born.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Espaillat, any difference on that position from you?

Adriano Espaillat: Brian, again, I have a record that I run on, a record of accomplishments, and the tweets that she's referring to were her record. Now, getting results in Congress is not--

Brian Lehrer: People are allowed to grow. I'm trying to compare you on your positions as of today.

Adriano Espaillat: Getting results in Congress is not a PhD program. It is getting consensus. It is building a coalition. It is finally getting results. It is hard work, coalition work across the board with members from all over the country. That's what it takes to be very effective in Congress. I've done that. I've been successful, and I will continue to do that. I bring resources to the district. At the end of the day, Brain--

Brian Lehrer: Do you believe in any more deportation than she does, including people who have come illegally and committed violent crimes? That's the question.

Adriano Espaillat: I'm fighting deportations every single day. Over 700 cases a year. Go to my office of people that are on line to get deported. I visited Delaney Hall and spoke to men and women there that are on their way to get deported. I've gone to 26 Federal Plaza, to the courtroom where ICE is waiting outside to deport people. I've gone to visit people that are being held in jail, people that actually have been deported. I flew to Monterrey, Mexico, to meet with a family with four US-born kids that were deported with their parents. We're trying to save a little girl's life that has a cancerous tumor and needs to go back to Houston, Texas, to her hospital to [unintelligible 00:43:43].

Brian Lehrer: We are just about out of time.

Adriano Espaillat: I've held them accountable.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to go now to closing statements. We tossed a coin on this. Mr. Espaillat, you'll go first. Ms. Avila Chevalier, second. Mr. Espaillat, about a minute for a closing argument in favor of your renomination.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian. For me, this fight has always been personal. I know that it feels like to live in the shadows. I know that firsthand. I know what it means to worry about whether your family will be safe, whether you will be able to afford rent, or whether your children will have opportunities they never had. That's why I spent my career fighting for the people of northern Manhattan and the Bronx, including Harlem and East Harlem.

Together, we have secured critical investments in housing, transit, health care, and our schools. We stood up to attacks on immigrants, protected access to health care, and fought to make our communities more affordable for working New Yorkers. This election is about much more than politics. It's about who has the experience, relationship, record to deliver when our communities are under pressure.

I will be honored to continue to serve you and earning your trust. I will continue to fight for Washington Heights and Inwood. I will continue to fight for the Bronx. I will continue to fight for East Harlem and Harlem. They are iconic neighborhoods in our city. I love those neighborhoods. I fought to get a seat at the table and we will fight to keep that seat.

Brian Lehrer: All right, you went about a minute and a quarter. Ms. Avila Chevalier, you'll get that, too.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Thank you so much, Brian. To your listeners, you will never hear divide and conquer politics from me, because I'm not interested in distracting you, in making excuses or in lording any power over you. I'm interested in doing the work, because that's what I do as an organizer, is build coalition to do the work, to deliver. I want to represent every single one of you. I want to tear down every barrier that has ever been put between you and the life that you deserve. I want us to do it together, because we're strongest when we're united, not as a slogan but as a strategy.

The people who benefit from us being divided are the same people funding my opponent's campaign, pushing us out of our communities, and terrorizing us in our neighborhoods. I don't want power over you. I want power with you. I want every single person in this district, in Harlem, in Washington Heights and Kingsbridge to come together. That is what I'm fighting for. I'm asking for your vote because our community deserves a leader who will fight for us every single day, a leader who rejects the politics of cynicism and abandonment. I'm asking you to vote for a politics of hope and life. That is what June 23rd is about.

Brian Lehrer: I want to thank you both again for engaging with each other and our listeners and in our electoral process. Thank you both very much.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Thank you so much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Early voting in the primary begins next Saturday, June 13th. Primary day itself is Tuesday, June 23rd. Coming up on Monday, our candidate forums continue as we'll have the three Democrats vying to succeed retiring Member of Congress Nydia Velázquez from parts of Brooklyn and Queens. Then next Tuesday night, WNYC's Bridget Bergin and NY1's Errol Louis and I will co-moderate a debate among the five Democrats running for Jerrold Nadler's seat as he retires from that Manhattan district. That'll be Tuesday night at 7:00 here on the station and on NY1. We will re-air parts of that the next morning, next Wednesday morning.

Up next, excerpts from and your reactions to last night's Ask Governor Sherrill here on WNYC, considering the situation at Delaney Hall and much more. That should be interesting and meaningful. Stay with us.

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