How the Trump Administration's New 'Public Charge' Rule May Affect Immigrants

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're going to turn now to a new rule from the Trump administration that's set to take effect this Friday, which could make it harder for a lot of people in our area, particularly immigrants who are applying for green cards. It changes something called the public charge rule, meaning immigration officials will be able to take a harder line on whether a green card applicant is receiving public benefits when deciding whether to approve their application.

It's going to force a lot of people who are vying for green card status to ask themselves questions like, will getting Medicaid health insurance for me and my children hurt my chances of getting my green card application approved? Will accepting food assistance like SNAP benefits be held against me in my immigration case, even though I've been eligible for them? The rule says that officials can take into account what they're calling means-tested public benefits, but it doesn't spell out a specific list of programs, which is part of what's creating so much uncertainty and anxiety.

Just to be clear, the rule only applies to some immigrants seeking green cards. Undocumented immigrants, it's worth saying out loud, are not included in that pool because they're already not entitled to public benefits, despite Trump's frequent claims to the contrary. There are exemptions for people seeking certain forms of humanitarian relief, including asylum. New York State Attorney General Letitia James and Mayor Zohran Mamdani are now leading two separate lawsuits challenging the rule. New York and 21 other states, plus Washington, DC, are part of this lawsuit, while New York City is leading a coalition of cities and counties in a separate case.

Both lawsuits were filed Monday, just days before the rule is scheduled to take effect on Friday. My guest is Catherine Chen, CEO of the Asian American Federation. She'll talk about how this could affect New York's Asian American immigrant community in particular, because that's who she mainly works with, but she's also going to unpack how this rule will change things for immigrants here from all over the world. Catherine, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Catherine Chen: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Can you give a little background on the public charge provision? How has it historically been used?

Catherine Chen: Yes, absolutely. You did a fabulous job of introducing it, but I think the simple way to understand the public charge rule is it's a rule that's been on the books for a long time, more than a century, but since 1999, the public charge rule has largely focused on two areas of benefits, and it allows immigration officers to decide whether or not if you've taken certain benefits, you might become somebody who relies primarily on government support if they let you into the United States. Those two benefits used to be whether or not you were primarily dependent on cash assistance like Social Security payments, or if you needed long-term institutional care that was funded by the government.

For example, if you were going to get long-term hospitalization. It used to be the case that the rules were very clear, as you indicated. The new rule, which is set to go into effect on Friday, unless a court responds to the two lawsuits that you just mentioned. The new rule that's supposed to go into effect on Friday gives those immigration officers much broader power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether or not they think someone might rely on the government if they're allowed into the United States.

Brian Lehrer: Now, listeners, we want to invite you in on this to help us report the story, in particular, if this affects you personally or someone you know. Other people may call as well. 212-433-WNYC, call or text. Are you going to be affected potentially by the changes to the public charge rule? Are you or is anyone in your family or among your friends, neighbors, employees, employers, worried that using public benefits could affect your green card eligibility or theirs? 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you're in a mixed-status family. Very relevant to you, I know.

If you've had to think about whether to enroll in programs like Medicaid or SNAP, or even enroll your children in one of these programs, or even in Head Start, say for pre-K. 212-433-WNYC, call us and tell us your situation or ask a question. 212-433-9692. Maybe you're part of the Asian American community that Catherine works with in particular, and you want to share a story, or anyone else. 212-433-WNYC. Your stories, your questions, advice, or anything else related. 212-433-9692.

Under this new rule, immigration officers, as I understand it, will have much more discretion to consider whether green card applicants are using what the Trump administration is calling means-tested public benefits, but the rule does not give them a specific list of programs that they need to consider. What kinds of benefits could potentially come into play here? What does means-tested public benefits mean? How broad is that net?

Catherine Chen: I think this is exactly why this lawsuit is so important. This language right now gives so much arbitrary power to an individual immigration officer to decide. The language that DHS has put out is that they are allowed to look at "any and all government benefits." That includes Medicaid, food stamps like SNAP, housing assistance, and even financial aid for college. Right now, we are anticipating that Temporary Assistance for Needy Families is likely going to account as well.

We don't think that things like unemployment insurance, Medicare, or workers' compensation are going to be included, but because the list does not define which benefits are included, that is the primary issue that we see right now in terms of sowing a level of confusion and fear on top of what this administration has already been doing to immigrant communities with arbitrary ICE raids.

Brian Lehrer: On this uncertainty, I'm going to play a clip here of Mayor Mamdani from the press conference that he participated in with Attorney General Letitia James on Monday, where they announced their respective lawsuits.

Mayor Zohran Mamdani: Families, including those with children who are US citizens, have already begun to forgo essential services like SNAP, Medicaid, and affordable housing out of the fear that if they use these programs, immigration officers could use it as justification to deny them a future in our country. The toll of this new rule cannot be overstated. It is estimated that up to 4 million people from across the country could unenroll from their health care alone, including 1.8 million children. None of this is abstract. People could die.

Brian Lehrer: "People could die." That's because of the implications for health care benefits that people may now avoid if they want permanent residency status.

Catherine Chen: Yes, exactly. I think it's really a key thing here. To quote DHS themselves. The Department of Homeland Security has said that they expect to see higher rates of communicable diseases that will affect both immigrants and the communities that immigrants live in, because they anticipate that immigrants are going to forgo preventative health care, including vaccines. This is going to drive up health care costs for all of us. It's going to put more people into the emergency room. It's going to have higher rates of untreated illnesses.

We've already been hearing in our own community, the Asian American community here in New York, where about two-thirds of the community is immigrants, people are forgoing the emergency room because they're afraid of ICE. We had a case in our own community where someone had a broken arm, and they did not go to the emergency room because they were afraid of deportation. When you add to that, so many immigrants come to the United States to give their families, to give their children a better future.

Now we're talking about the possibility that if you did the work to get here, following the rules, and you're doing that hard work to build a better future for your children, now the question becomes, if you use benefits, are you going to lose the possibility of you yourself being able to be here legally? I think that that is such a cynical and devastating way to try to roll out this program.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT Trenton, WNJP Sussex, WNJY Netcong, and WNJO Toms River. Our new, more efficient top-of-the-hour legal ID. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio, at 11:01 right now, talking about the new rules that will take effect on Friday from the Trump administration that will sweep in more green card applicants as violating the public charge rule or falling under the public charge rule, which might get their green card applications denied because they're receiving taxpayer benefits.

You mentioned DHS. I want to read something in contrast to your position that DHS, Department of Homeland Security, posted when it announced the rule. The agency said, "Under President Trump, DHS is restoring the basic principle that immigrants must be able to support themselves. We are reaffirming the requirement of self-reliance, protecting public resources, and ending policies that encourage dependency on hardworking American taxpayers." What do you say to what might be many Americans who support that premise, if people are given permanent residency status in this country, they should be able to support themselves, not rely on the taxpayers?

Catherine Chen: I think that when people make the calculation to uproot their entire lives and their children's lives to come to the United States as an immigrant following every rule, we need to give them an equal shot. The benefits that we're talking about here, like housing assistance in one of the most expensive cities in the world, is not about a drain on taxpayers. It's about giving people an equal shot. I often think about-- I mean, it's maybe a corny way of thinking about it these days, but I think about what's inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Give us your tired, your poor, and your huddled masses yearning to be free.

That's the spirit of who we are in New York. That's the spirit of how New York has been built into the greatest city on earth. I think this law is not really about whether or not someone is eligible for benefits. The problem with this law is about the fact that immigration officers now get an arbitrary case-by-case determination of who gets to come in and who doesn't. I think we can all agree that that is unfair, and that is not--

As somebody who's worked in government for a very long time, I think one of the other elements of this is when you take something that was so black and white before, there were these two benefits, and you needed to check whether or not they used those benefits, and if they didn't use those benefits, they were in the clear. When you take that, and you now give an immigration officer wide discretion to make that decision, not only is it completely arbitrary, but it also gums up the works, and it entirely slows down the process for anyone who is going to try and come into the United States.

For us, the issue that we see with how this administration is rolling out something like this is really about how much freewheeling arbitrariness they are allowing. Not only that, but also just the dramatic impact that it has at the same time that ICE is doing what it's doing to terrorize communities. I think at the end of the day, what is so unfortunate and so cynical about a rule like this, when coupled with what the administration is doing, is that they are actively trying to make sure that they protect a demographic that is majority white in the United States and slow down the eventual diversification of the United States.

They're using whatever policies they can to scare people, to intimidate people, and to really sow a level of confusion into the community.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a pushback text. Listener writes, "The Statue of Liberty no longer applies. Meaning the inscription you cited, 'Give me your poor, your huddled masses,' no longer applies to people now. This is earth, not heaven. Can't afford the world. Wake up." Your response to that, and what's the limit, if you have a limit, to how many poor people who would have to rely on the government the United States should take in?

Catherine Chen: I don't agree. I think that the thing that makes New York an amazing place is our diversity. I don't think that the public charge rule, as it is rolled out right now, is really about what your listener is referring to. I think that this issue that we're fighting is the way that the administration has rolled out the law. In 2019, when the president tried to do this, we and a coalition of other organizations sued the federal government, and courts overturned the public charge rule that they tried to implement in 2019.

We expect that the courts are going to find that the implementation of this rule, the way that they've done it, similarly is unlawful and is so incredibly unjust for people who are in the middle of proceedings right now.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a question about one category of immigrants who this may or may not apply to. Maybe you can answer the question and clear it up. From Fritz Karl in Miami, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Fritz Karl: Brian, I love your show. I listen to it religiously. You are my Hebrew pastor. Anyway, yes, I'm worried about my mom. She came here as a young, spunky, kick-butt immigrant and did her thing, had kids. All the kids are American and stuff like that. She neglected to become an American citizen during that whole time. Now she's elderly. She's still a green card holder. I keep seeing in the news how they're treating people who are green card holders, let alone, unfortunately, people who are undocumented. I'm just worried about that. I want to do whatever I can to stop these mad people, madmen.

Brian Lehrer: Are you asking, in part, will this affect green card holders who want to take the next step and apply for citizenship?

Fritz Karl: That, and also just the randomness of people who are green card holders, like seemingly being harassed. Her time is coming up. She'll have to renew. I'm so worried about that. I'm hoping it's after the election. Hopefully, Trump is out of here, and better days will come; who knows. The bad news is every day is some madness. What are they trying to do? America is what it is because of immigrants. I don't even understand it.

Brian Lehrer: Fritz Karl, thank you so much for your call. I'll remind you that we have a three-city special tomorrow night since you're in Miami. That's also going to be on WLRN down there. That's on the related topic of Haitians losing their TPS status under a Trump administration order. That's Haiti on the line. The TPS emergency tomorrow night at 7:00 here on WNYC. I will be co-hosting with colleagues from WLRN Miami and GBH Boston tomorrow night at 7:00 on all three of those stations.

Catherine, to the caller's-- it's really two questions. One, for someone like his mom who's a green card holder but has to go for renewal at a certain point, will she be reevaluated under these new standards, or has a green card?

Catherine Chen: I think one of the things that's really important is they're looking, if the rule goes into effect, this is benefits beginning on September 18th going forward. I think that's one thing for listeners to really understand. Benefits that you received before September 18th do not fall under the new rule if it goes into effect on Friday. If it does, in fact, go into effect, then it is benefits that you receive after September 18th.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's why people are so concerned that folks will give up the Medicaid that they currently qualify for or the SNAP food assistance that they currently qualify for to duck under what might be that line, but then impoverish themselves or make themselves sick.

Catherine Chen: That's right. You mentioned this also in the conversation with Speaker Menin when we're talking about the census, for example, and I sit on her census task force. What we know right now is that the Asian community here in New York, now I'm just talking about New York City, has the highest poverty rate in the city, in part because 42% of Asian Americans in New York have limited English proficiency. When we're talking about rule changes like this that are, again, let me reinforce, arbitrary and on a case-by-case basis, it is extraordinarily difficult for folks who are already law-abiding and have every intention of following the rules to understand what it is that will actually disqualify them or won't.

One of the most important things that I do really hope that your listeners will do is do not disenroll from benefits. Absolutely do not disenroll from your benefits. Have a conversation with a legal service provider. If you're here in New York and you are part of the large diaspora of the Asian community, more than 40 languages and 50 countries of origin, you can reach out to us at aafederation.org. We work with more than 70 community-based trusted partners working in different languages in different communities in different boroughs across the city and the state.

Have a conversation with a legal services provider about what your benefits mean for you if you're in the process of a green card renewal, or the processes for a visa, or a green card right now.

Brian Lehrer: That's clarifying, but maybe risky advice you're giving to people. Don't give up your SNAP. Don't give up your Medicaid. You sure about that?

Catherine Chen: I am. Yes. I want to also just say what we saw in 2019, as the new rule was threatened into being, because it is not yet in effect. I think that is also why Attorney General James' lawsuit, along with the 21 other states and the District of Columbia, as well as Mayor Mamdani's lawsuits, why those matter. Because it was a New York court that ruled last time around that the public charge rule was unlawful. We are waiting to find out whether or not there will be a judge assigned to the case. We are waiting, obviously, for what's going to happen before Friday, but I really want to appeal to those of you who are potentially on benefits to not disenroll from your benefits without talking to a legal services provider.

I'll repeat these resources again before we wrap up our call, Brian, but I do want to mention a handful of resources for your listeners. The Mayor's Office of Immigrant Affairs--

Brian Lehrer: We're just about out of time, so this is going to be the last reference. Listeners, if you think this applies to you, take notes now. Go ahead, Catherine.

Catherine Chen: Number one, come visit us at aafederation.org. We have resources in 14 different languages, if you need an explainer of what to do about public charge, about SNAP, about any of the other things that are going on right now with respect to immigrants and benefits. Number two, if you're here in New York City, the Mayor's Office of Immigrant Affairs has a confidential hotline. That number is 1-800-354-0365. Again, that's 1-800-354-0365. That's the Mayor's Office of Immigrant Affairs. It's a confidential hotline.

If you're in New York State, outside of the city, the New York State Office for New Americans also has a free and confidential hotline. That is 1-800-566-7636. Again, 1-800-566-7636. Again, visit us at aafederation.org. We have resources in 14 Asian languages about public charge, about SNAP, about family safety planning guides, and more. If you need resources in Spanish, The Legal Aid Society is a great place to look for that as well.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for all of that. Just to clarify the additional question that I thought the caller from Miami was asking, a number of people are asking it in texts. This new public charge rule, if it takes effect on Friday, if the lawsuits don't at least delay it, applies to people applying for green cards. It does not apply to green card holders applying for citizenship? That public charge standard will not be applied at that point? Is that accurate to say?

Catherine Chen: That is what we understand right now. I think part of the challenge that we see in the rule is that it's very, very vague. That's why we're saying we still really want to encourage folks to go and have a conversation one-on-one--

Brian Lehrer: All of those resources, yes.

Catherine Chen: Yes. One-on-one with a legal service provider if they can.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine Chen, CEO of the Asian American Federation, thank you so much for coming on today.

Catherine Chen: Thank you so much, Brian.

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