What Would Luke Skywalker Do?

Kurt Andersen and Cass Sunstein go way back. They were classmate in college, where Kurt remembers Sunstein as a “very seriously impressive 20-year-old.” So Kurt wasn't surprised that after graduation, Sunstein became one of America's preeminent legal scholars and public policy thinkers. Sunstein recently had a job advising President Obama at the White House, and he’s appeared on lists of potential candidates for the Supreme Court.

Sunstein’s new book, "The World According to Star Wars," came as a shock to many people who expected him to produce yet another scholarly tome. But the book isn't really all that different from his other work — it explores social, legal and political philosophy. The revelation for Sunstein was that the "Star Wars" universe contained so many of the moral quandaries that fascinate him.

Kurt Andersen: The first "Star Wars" film came out when we were young, when you were in law school. Had you been a consistent "Stars Wars" nerd since then?

Cass Sunstein: Not really. I liked "Star Wars." I liked “A New Hope” plenty. I liked “The Empire Strikes Back” even better. And I liked “The Return of the Jedi.” But my becoming a Star-Wars-focused person is extremely recent and was prompted by my now seven-year-old son who, improbably at the age of five, became very focused on "Star Wars." And that got me very curious about the whole phenomenon.

This book is not so unlike your other work — it is about social and legal and political philosophy, but placed in the context of this pop cultural drag.

You’re right. There is a connection between "Star Wars" and law. And that’s the first thing that drew me in. “I am your father” is a way of making everyone go “whoa,” because what they thought before is completely in a new light. That’s both shocking and also can produce a sense of immediate recognition: “That’s it. That’s right.” And law’s like that, too. When the Supreme Court struck down racial segregation in 1954? That was an “I am your father” moment of the best kind.

The "Star Wars universe" is pretty black and white. The good guys are totally good and the bad guys are totally bad. And your work is so much about nuance and ambiguity. There is no Cass Sunstein equivalent in the "Star Wars" universe, is there?

I see things a little differently. The way I see "Star Wars" is that the person who restores balance to the Force, the chosen one, the person who commits the most heroic act ever, is Darth Vader. He is the one who sacrifices everything — not just his life, but his life’s cause — in order to do one thing: save his child. So, I think the movie looks a lot simpler in terms of good versus evil than it actually is. It’s saying that, in the worst of us there is good, which can lead to redemptive acts of the highest order. And if you don’t go dark, you’re not human.

You’re somebody who obviously cares about the nature and survival of democracy and the rule of law. I can imagine another thing that interested you in the movies was the Republic turning into a fascist empire.

Yeah, that’s grown on me. When I first saw the prequels, I reacted like a lot of people. Which was “why don’t we get to something interesting?” But it holds up really well. And not just because we live in a time when strong men are having appeal in both Europe and the United States.

You mean the Republicans have just nominated Emperor Palpatine?

Well, I wouldn’t say that. But I would say that Mr. Trump, some of his appeal is, he’s gonna knock some heads. The niceties don’t matter to him. The idea that we have a broken, paralyzed legislative process and we need someone who can set things right. And in Europe we’re seeing that as well. I think Lucas did get that dynamic right. And it’s not a coincidence or a prophesy on his part. He studied history, particularly Nazi Germany and Napoleon’s France, and saw how a broken or blocked legislature can often breed a real challenge — a serious challenge — to democratic forms.

[Americans] like to think of ourselves as part of the Rebel Alliance, of course. Are we the Empire or the Rebel Alliance, in 2016?

We’re a republic. The question “who is what” is something that the "Star Wars" movies provocatively and deliberately pose. Lucas, when he did the original ones, [went] on record saying he saw the Empire as the United States. It’s not a didactic thing. My view of the United States is… Benjamin Franklin said after the Constitution was drafted, in response to a question on the spot — “What have you given us?” He said, “a Republic, if you can keep it.”