This episode is from the WNYC archives. It may contain language which is no longer politically or socially appropriate.
Note to producers: audio does contain some language that could be offensive out of context.
From card catalog: Leroi Jones, Negro playwright, reads a statement of what the Negro revolutionary theater is. He considers it a political, sociological and psychological weapon. Questions and answers.
McGurn introduces Jones with a quote from Time magazine, advertises an event at St. Marks Theater to benefit the creation of the first repertory theater in Harlem.
Jones reads from a paper commissioned (and returned unpublished) by the New York Times by Lewis Funke called "The Revolutionary Theater." Should force change, should be change. Must accuse and attack because it is a theater of victims. Must take dreams and give them reality. "Popular white man's theater shows tired white lives and the problems of eating white sugar." Most white artists don't need to be political because they are in complete sympathy with social repressive forces.
Full text of article can be accessed here: http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai3/protest/text12/barakatheatre.pdf (Last accessed 05-17-2011.)
Joe Newman hosts Q&A: Comment on the plot to blow up the Statue of Liberty? Someone told him people were planning it because television was so boring. What would happen to his movement if whites were to withdraw their support for the cause? Baraka responds by asking if he can call Negroes just black, because it's a better delineation. It would probably change a lot of black people who are skating with the idea that there is a benevolent program outlined for them by the white man. It would be a much more honest situation because most of the help is extended through a pathological guilt feeling. Fascism and Americanism are synonymous? Americanism is worse because it's stronger; they beat the fascists. What are Americans dedicated to? Luxury, having people do things for you. From his own experience? Yes. There are two Americas: a white America and a black America. The black man wants to be, first of all, a human being. White society is set up so they must oppress. Greatest satisfaction as artist or propagandist? There's no difference. "Aesthetics and ethics are one." Art is in the method in which he can propagandize. European Marxists tried the same thing in the theater, and it failed - how to keep revolutionary ideals and a good play in tact? The questioner thinks that the two are mutually exclusive; art can be anything.
Host sign off, concluding remarks: Jones is using poetic symbols in what he's saying, his aim is to shock (crowd reacts negatively to these ideas), his language choice is unfortunate.
Questions continue: An argument between Jones and an audience member who suggests he is the exact same as a white man. Jones calls him a well-fed bourgeoisie, that they are definitely not alike. Asks the man if God made him more qualified for his job than a black man without a job. Why was the NY Times piece rejected? Ask the man next to you. Fascism and Americanism question. That answer is edited out. Another question is edited out. He says he's always been faced with white faces telling him what he's thinking, why he's incorrect. He says an audience member "looks like the principal of my high school." How does he feel about the black Muslims? He is not a religious man. They're no more racist than the Methodist church of America. Their version of social history of America is correct, but perhaps their solution to contemporary social frictions is unrealistic. Is it his feeling that there is no possibility of "live and let live" arrangement between the black and white man? Cites US involvement in China, Vietnam, and Congo; suggests US involvement abroad will cause the white man to be hated. The more tokens extended to the black man, the worse the situation gets. People think of MLK and sit-ins as being the most articulate demonstration of Negro dissent; they represent middle class Negro aspirations. Most Negros in the US are neither middle class, nor college students. Cops in Harlem, what kind of context is that for a rational discussion for ways to end oppression. Do most Negroes feel the way he does about MLK? He doesn't reflect the wishes of the majority of Negroes, and most would agree with that. They can't get out of jail by asking LBJ for help. Does he agree with the statement that the white man should stop kidding himself that he is any better than a member of the KKK? A fair paraphrase. If he were a social counselor, how would you suggest a person save his neck? "I'd say, give me all your money and get out of the country." Among white men, do you distinguish between a fascist and an anti-fascist? Anti-fascists won WW2; US organized Filipinos in to anti-fascist group. Once the fascists were beaten, the anti-fascists re-established the same kind of fascist policies that had existed previously. Fascism has been made obsolete by Americanism. America is the cancer on the world. Question off-mic. He believes his mother is better-equipped to tell about the world than the woman who asked the question. How does he feel toward the middle class black man? An argument breaks out and he says, "see what happens when you integrate these luncheons, lady?" Most of them are traitors. How does he feel that not a single black member of the OPC has come to see him speak? He asks how many they are, and the woman in the audience (Adele Nathan) says she doesn't know, she's colorblind, to which Jones responds, Oh really? That's too bad. He says he doesn't know why they didn't come. He says they secretly hate themselves as they associate with her. Does he consider every successful black man a member of the middle class? Usually a black man who has made his way in to the mainstream of American society is somehow a traitor and hates himself. He asks the audience what they think about the Congo. Suggests the statue of liberty should be melted down and sold to pay for razing buildings uptown. What do they think about the girls killed in Birmingham.
For more on Leroi Jones (Amiri Baraka) and this broadcast please see:
Audio courtesy of the NYC Municipal Archives WNYC Collection
WNYC archives id: 5770
Municipal archives id: T674
This is a machine-generated transcript. Text is unformatted and may contain errors.
It's our great pleasure today here at the Overseas Press Club to. Welcome a young man who has been described as the most impressive American playwright of recent years this was the comment made recently by Time magazine. The Herald Tribune comment was that here we meet a fierce and blazing talent before presenting Le Roy Jones I would like to introduce those of us here at the head table and George Green of our club committee Joe Norman program director thank you Al Peterson also of the club committee and Charles Patterson a playwright who was. First produced work it will be produced on March first at the St Mark's theater in a combined bill with the works of Lee Roy Jones as a twenty dollar a ticket benefit to create the first Repertory Theater in Harlem Thank you Roy Jones needs no introduction of the Dutchman the toilet the slave his works of poetry. A volume which he has now ready for publication on the negro intellectual his forthright and dramatically expressed opinions about the inevitability of a black white clash a clash of frightening proportions and consequences has all too dramatically been presented to the play going and poetry reading public of America. The force with which a young man of thirty years of age a graduate a native of New York. A graduate of the Beringia high school in New York. A veteran of the American air force the force with which he has appeared on the of American horizon as one of the powerful no writing stars is all too well known to need further introduction it is my pleasure to produce to present to you Roy Jones. I'm going to read a short paper. That was written for The New York Times and was commissioned by New York Times by men in Louis Funk who subsequently returned I want to read a piece that was commissioned. By. The New York Times and. Subsequently returned. Unpublished by New York Times it's called The Revolutionary theatre. The revolutionary theatre should force change it should be change all their faces turned into the lights and you work on them black nigger magic and cleanse them and having seen the ugliness and if the Beautiful see themselves they will love themselves we are preaching virtue again but by that to mean now what seems the most constructive uses of the world the revolutionary theatre must expose show up the insides of these humans look into black skulls white men will cower before this theater because it hates them because they have been trained to hate the revolutionary theatre must hate them for hating for presuming with their technology to deny the supremacy of the spirit. They will all die because of this the revolutionary theatre must teach them their deaths it must crack their faces open to the mad cries of the poor it must teach them about silence and the truths lodged there it must kill any god anyone names except common sense the revolutionary theatre should flush the fangs and murders out of Lincoln's face it should stagger through our universe correcting insulting preaching spitting craziness but a craziness taught to us in our most rational moments people must be taught to trust true scientists know words diggers' oddballs and that the holiness of life is the constant possibility of widening the consciousness and they must be incited to strike back against any agency that attempts to prevent the swine the revolutionary theatre must accuse and attack anything that can be accused an attack it must accuse and attack because it is a theater of victims it looks at the sky with the victims ons and moves the victims to look at the strength in their minds and their bodies Calais in Dutchman Ray in the toilet rock or in the slave are all victims in the Western sense they could be heroes but the revolutionary theatre even if it is western must be anti western It must show horrible coming attractions of the crumbling of the West even as our toe designed the conquest of Mexico so we must design the conquest of white eye and show the missionaries and wiggly liberals dying under blast of concrete for sound effects while screams of joy from all the peoples of the world. The revolutionary theater must take dreams and give them a reality it must isolate the ritual and historical cycles of reality but it must be food for all those who need food and daring propaganda for the beauty of the human mind but it is a political theatre a weapon to help in the slaughter of these dimwitted fat belly white guys who somehow believe that the rest of the world is here for them to slobber on this should be a theatre of world spirit where the spirit can be shown to be the most competent force in the world force spirit feeling the language will be anybody's but tightened by the poet's backbone and even the language must show what the facts are in this consciousness epic what's happening we will talk about the world and the preciseness with which we are able to summon the world will be our art art is method an art like any ashtray or a senator remains in the world that can stand said ethics and I and as that acts are one I believe this so the Broadway Theater is a theater of reaction whose ethics like it as that acts reflects the spiritual values of this on holy society which sends young crackers all over the world blowing off colored people's heads in some of these flippy southern towns they even shoot up the immigrants favorite son be it Michael Schwerner or J.F. Kennedy the revolutionary theatre is shaped by the world and moved to reshape the world using as its force the natural force and perpetual vibrations of the mind in the world we are history and desire what we are and what any experience can make us it is a social theater but only a theater or social theatre. But we will change the drawing rooms into places where real things can be said about a real world or into smoky rooms where the destruction of Washington can be plotted the revolutionary theatre must function like an incendiary pencil planted in Curtis Lamaze cap so that when the final curtain goes down brains are splattered over the seats on the floor and bleeding nuns must wire S.O.S.'s to Belgians with gold teeth are theater will show victims so that their brothers in the audience will be better able to understand that they are the brothers of victims and that they themselves are victims if they are blood brothers and what we show must cause the blood to rush so that pre-revolutionary temperaments will be bathed in the blood and it will cause their deepest souls to move when they find themselves tensed and clenched even ready to die at what the soul has been taught we will scream and cry murder run through the streets in agony if it means some so will be moved to move to actual life understanding of what the world is and what it ought to be we are preaching virtue and feeling and a natural sense of the self in the world or men live in the world in the world ought to be a place for them to live what is called the imagination from Image magic magic magician etc is a practical vector from the soul it stores all data and can be called on to solve all our quote problems unquote the imagination is the projection of ourselves past our sense of ourselves as things imagination image is all possibility because from the image the initial circumscribe energy any use idea is possible and so begins that image is used in the world possibility as what moves us. The popular white man's theater like the popular white man's novel shows tired white lives and the problems of eating white sugar or else that herds big boost blondes on to huge stages and rhinestones and makes believe they are dancing or singing white businessmen of the world you want to see people really dancing and singing all of you go up in Harlem and get yourself killed there will be dancing and singing then for real in the slave rocker vessels the black revolutionary wears an armband which is the insignia of the attacking on army a big red lipped minstrel grinning like crazy the liberal white man's objection to the theatre of the revolution if he is hip enough will be an aesthetic grounds most right Western artist do not need to be political science usually whether they know it or not they are in complete sympathy with the most repressive social forces in the world today there are more junior birdmen fascist running around the West today discussed as artists than there are discuss this fascist but then that word fascist and with it fascism has been made obsolete by the word America and American ism the American artist usually turns out to just be a super Bush while because finally all he has to show for his sojourn through the world is quote better taste unquote than the Bush while many times not even that Americans will hate the revolutionary theatre because it will be out to destroy them and whatever they believe is real American cops will try to close the theaters where such nakedness of the human spirit is paraded American producers will say the revolutionary plays are filth usually because they will treat human life as if it was actually happening American directors will say that the white guys in the plays are too abstract and cowardly quote Don't get me wrong I mean aesthetically unquote and they will be a right. The force we want is of twenty million spooks storming America with serious cries and unstoppable weapons we want actual explosions and actual brutality an epic is crumbling and we must give it the space and hugeness of its actual demise the revolutionary theater which is now peopled with victims will soon begin to be peopled with new kinds of heroes not the weak Hamlets debating whether or not they are ready to die for what's on their minds but men and women and minds digging out from under a thousand years of quote Hajar unquote and week face down in us we must make an art that will function as to call down the actual wrath of World Spirit we are which doctors and assassins but we will open a place for the true scientists to expand our consciousness this is a theatre of a song the play that will split the heavens for us will be called the destruction of America the heroes will be Crazy Horse Denmark Vesey Patrice Lumumba but not history not memory not sad sentimental groping for warmth in our despair these will be new men new heroes and their enemies most of you who are listening to this THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. My last job to take the question. And we start with questions from the press table so if there are any there would you please identify yourself with your question Mr Sherrod of these at eighteen. What would Mr Jones please comment on the alleged plot reported in the morning papers to blow up the Statue of Liberty and other statues it's well somebody somebody told me that people were planning to do that because the television was getting so dull and people were losing interest in America so that was sort of done so that people would you know be interested in America again sort of like a publicity stunt. I think was good but. It's pretty good I mean I know a lot of people who are going to use it all over the world you know to. Say that somebody want to blow up these monuments there are a lot of better things are going to blow up you know than those monuments but I think it's you know it's an interesting idea you know. What do you think what happened to your movement if. All the lights were to withdraw themselves and their financial support because. Gee what would happen you know first like think that. You don't have any objection to calling Negroes black just black people rather than a group no you know will I be it's a ditz a better delineation you know but anyway what would happen I would probably change a lot of people's minds would change a lot of. Black people who are still skating with the idea that somehow there is a benevolent program outlined for them by the white man. Like give suddenly everyone most of the white people in America were to be quite honest let's say as honest as most of the crackers are in the South you know. Probably we could get something going you know would be be a much more honest situation you know because most of the help. That is extended is either from some kind of pathological guilt feelings which are somehow never resolved. Or tax you know the duction Zora image value or something like that but there are very very few white people in this country that want the system changed with the suddenness of reality I mean abracadabra you know very very few understand from your paper that fascism and American ism are synonymous is that your view you want my SO I'm not quite synonymous Americanism it was a little worse because it's stronger because they beat the fascists you see they beat the Nancys to see which people would have the final say of running the store so the Americans finally are worse because they're stronger and also because they are dedicated to liberty and freedom and justice and equal rights you know which is a lie as any person on the earth can tell you as most of the people on the earth can tell you it's a lot. Of luxury but this woman want to know what are Americans dedicated to luxury having people do things for you assuming. A position in the world that you don't really deserve in terms of your relationship with the world not working having people do your work for you unreality you know things like that. Part of. US is from my own experience yes being an American that's right that's right being a black man it's a different thing there are two Americas there's a white America and a black America the black man wants to be first of all a human being. Most of the people in the world want to be human beings they want to live out their lives the way they see fit to live out their lives they want to expand their minds and they want to live in a way that will be beneficial to them and beneficial to the rest of the world most white people in the world their society is set up so they must oppressed most of the people in the world and this is not some kind of emotional assertion this is fact these are facts yes but. Not. Which which gives you more satisfaction. Being an artist or being a propagandist no artist or there's no difference I said in that paper about that can stand it was a European white man who said aesthetics and ethics are one that is if I if you think of me as a propagandist in my art will be in the method in the position with which I can propaganda as art is method you know. What. You mean European Marxists really Merican learnt you know all I'm not a Marxist at all he said the Marxist tried the same thing in the theater and it failed. Well by playing on how do you keep a revolutionary play and good ideals compatible. Revolutionary ideals and a good play compatible you don't think that's possible do you think that a play by the very definition of play has to be anti revolution or not have anything to do with revolution that is your own kind of social fix on what art is or can be anything. But just trying to tell it exactly the way it is I think we've come to the end of of this period I would just like to make my own remarks on this I would prefer to think that Mr Jones is using poetic symbols in a great deal of what he's saying that. That. I think his aim is to shock I think he's succeeded I think he has good reason for shocking I think it's unfortunate that he's used the language that he has used on many occasions I think most of us would agree and I think there are a good number of black as well as white Americans who would feel that. His technique and device may really defeat themselves however well he may he may me I think it's also unfortunate that some of the members have. Been provoked into using some of the language and he himself is used and with that we thank him and we say goodbye. Pardon. Is a poll that shows a No I've made a poll in my life I've talked to a lot of white people in my life. Was I what. Yes I did I had. I had. I mean let me let me just know I am not the president my my friend my friend which one try talking to you oh this man says that I'm exactly like a white man now aside from the obvious physical fallacy of that and also perhaps a psychological fallacy in that my friend you are a well fed white blue Joie Don't you ever tell me I'm like you don't ever tell me I'm like you. But we met not by trampling the faces of the poor let me just interrupt to say that we'll try to keep some order here because I think any question that you have to put you can put an orderly way and if you don't I'll have to ask you not to put it well let me ask you a question let me ask you why do you think what kind of job do you have sir this is just an honest question and not need to get you angry you don't have any job how do you support yourself let's let's not forget it let's not conduct because I just want to know why he thought he was better qualified to have the job he has than say some other black man walking the street without a job I just want to know you specially qualified did God make you better qualified. Could we go on could we go on now to another question Is there any other. Yes but. Why why was your piece turned down by the New York Times writes that it isn't that. He says ask the gentleman next to you he can tell you. Same reaction Lewis funky probably had the same. Reaction that this gentleman here had you got excited and started saying never mind and things like that same thing you know now well. Another question. Is playing. Worth is worth just one second let me repeat the question. No no that would probably be you know up to you to explain I have some ideas about it you know of some ideas like you know well like the gesture in the direction of. Capital G. good or something like that or expanding your consciousness and I kind of casual backhanded way like availing yourself of the easiest way into what you think of as some kind of change but not quite understanding what the changes are just being as you said good men of good will and men of good will would do that go to here in the in the ME You know it's. It's a kind of corny point you know. No no no this is America no this is America in the sense that we're all grown up you know it's always been you saying we are a minority I've always been faced with this kind of thing like a lot of like white faces who are ready to tell you what you were thinking and why you're incorrect in your assumptions always all my life I've been faced with that friend you look like the principal on high school. Yes. What did what is your feeling about the Black Muslims. I took their religion I'm not a religious man. You know I thought they were religious organization you know they I don't think there are any more. If you don't like raciest I don't think they're any more racist in the Methodist Church of America in that sense I mean the white matter a white Presbyterian or possible to you know the Muslims version of social history of America is quite correct but I think perhaps their solution to. You know contemporary American. Social frictions as. Maybe unrealistic I don't think is going to give them any land they would put them in the Grand Canyon before they gave in to the three states I believe. Are part and preserving it for them probably. Any other. I just want to put a question Mr Jones you take the what we might call the extermination this position on this matter. Then. You quoted yourself then incorrectly but I think that's pretty much in your paper. The sense of it at any rate and if that is so is it really your feeling that there is no possibility or you see none of some modus vivendi a live and let live arrangement between the black and the right man well it's not just an American you know like I don't want America I don't but what we know when Let's talk about the whole world and let's talk about America you will not let the people in the Congo live you will not let the people in Vietnam live you will not let the people in Latin America live OK We talk about America now the majority of the people in the world are Chinese number one you know and you say the world opinion is against the Atomic the Chinese having atomic bomb when the Chinese are you know one out of every four people is Chinese what he what kind of the reasoning is that the Americans go in and bomb North Vietnam and give you some story about retaliation when they're not even supposed to be there and one of your own congressmen our senators what's name from Wayne Morse says repeatedly that if you continue with this war. That the white man will be hated throughout the world for two three hundred years and things like that this is coming from Wayne Morse not from what you think of as some kind of emotionally emotional assertion by some young Black Riders came from Wayne Morse and said that we talk about America now wait a minute let me talk about the Congo and then you drop people out of the heavens and kill these people and throw them in rivers and chop off their heads and then bring back that old story about nuns who would rape a nun now wait a minute that's really absurd and to try to claim a humanitarian. You know how America Terry in point of view behind that that's taxes anybody's you know reasoning America in one OK No The only thing it's getting worse in America rather than better more tokens the more tokens that you try to extend to some black man setting up a kind of special CONDRA kind of goal of middle class Negroes to protect the power structure from say the rage of the poor Nick row the worse the situation gets people think about Martin Luther King and citizens as being the most. Articulate articulate demonstration of negro dissent when you don't understand him or Luther King and those college students represent middle class Negro aspirations and the most most Negroes the United States are neither middle class nor are they college students and and the great majority of black men in this country and this is Signy are not being dealt with even in that way they're being dealt with more. More harshly. You know and there is no real kind of choice for them because you force it on them every day if you go in Harlem you go in Harlem walk down hundred twenty fifth street you see like a hundred cops standing on a corner and you tell me what kind of context that is for a rational discussion about ways to end oppression you tell me that. Do you think that. Most of this mass of Negroes whom you just referred feel the way you do about Martin Luther King. Well you know the only thing I said about Martin Luther King is he doesn't you know reflect the wishes of the majority of negroes and I think that you know I think the average black man in the street would tell you pretty much that you know because he knows if he goes to jail he can't be calling up from a cell and he can't be talking to Lyndon Johnson and he can be getting out the next day you know they realize that. There's just the gentleman in the back who hasn't put a question yet yes or. No that's that's that's a fair you know paraphrase of it the paraphrase was that the white man is no better than a cuckoo clocks are and Mr Jones agreed that that pretty well describe his feeling worse are actually he thinks the white man is even worse yes oh. You're like you were. Mr Charlie. And I say. Well you know. If you were a society counselor and someone came to you ask you how to write save my neck What would you tell them say give me all your money and get out of the country. As well but here's a chance come right up here not. Just one minute you haven't been recognized I have someone behind lead and put a question here next to tell. You here. Nothing wrong with that yes go ahead. Among white men and you distinguish between a fascist and an anti-fascist Well I'll tell you no the anti fascist beat the fascists and second world war correct. Is that right now for instance in the Philippines the Americans organized or took over a Filipino Liberation Front called say the Hawks to organize him as an anti fascist guerrilla group now the minute the Says fascist The Japanese were beaten. Then the anti fascists reestablish the same kind of colonial policies in the Philippines that the Japanese would have put it in the same kind and fact it's worse because the Filipinos are much less interested in having a white man tell them what to do than having a Japanese tell them what to do much less. Or they're probably all kinds of anti fascist but I'm saying fascism has been made obsolete by America that's what I said before fascism there's no fascism it's American ism America is the bright on the world the cancer on the world is America. All right ask it. No I said America made fascist fascist and fascism obsolete America and America American ism is the word not fascism American ism made fascism obsolete anti Americanism is much better. Really great beautiful beautiful yes great go at your own Put your question. Why. Do we be doing become the one. If the blacks defeat the whites will whites then become colonized I suppose by the blacks. I mean that's a kind you know that's a kind of adolescent question you mean you think that people who have been subjected dollar laws in three hundred years have been subjected to. Kind of ask and I question like that do you think that we don't know enough. All right OK Do you think somehow you are better equipped to run the world you lady all right but I know my mother is better equipped even to tell about the world than you are. Yesterday. Mr Jones how do you feel toward the middle class black man. Well I wish you first would we please repeat that that ladies answer to me she said go to hell over there I want her to hear that but. Gentlemen hear something about you when I hear middle class black man. I think you see what happens when you integrate these luncheons life. When you said about the middle class black man well most of them are traitors in a sense you know. They are the class that the white man really tries to present as his version of Utopia as his tiny version of Utopia a handful of black people who somehow identify with the white men who somehow think of themselves as white men. Who somehow think of themselves as separated from their brothers and sisters and most of them are traitors. You know. Well I'd say the sickest ones are about almost like the white man because if they really knew the extent of horror that they have put on the world they would have no other choice but to murder themselves if they really could if you really did believe you were evil if you really could understand that there are people all over the world who think of you no matter whether you're sitting on a beach you know wiggling your toes or watching television or patting some colored girl on the head that there are people all over the world who think of you as evil if you could really accept that and really see here into your brain you might have to knock yourself off in the same way with these black middle class people they might have to do the same thing you know they'll make them. How do you feel that not a single Like member of the Overseas Press Club has come to hear you but only the white numbers on how many of them are diverse. Really that's too bad that's today. I don't know I don't know anything about why they didn't come I can't say. You think so. You mean it because they have to walk around like associating with you and like secretly hating themselves and hating their blackness that they still haven't made well no I was just asking you my way you know. Yeah. You colorblind That's right. Yes place. You consider every successful Negro businessman writer author. A member of the middle class and therefore should suffer the kind of fate that you would condemn them to know what are you putting it look different way you know what I said is usually a black man who was made his way into the mainstream of American society. Is somehow a traitor and somehow hates himself maybe down in the core of his psyche for having become a strange from the majority of his brothers now when there is a black man who has made it somehow and continues to say this E.G. Paul Robeson you know for instance. They have razor taking care of them just like they'll have ways of taking care of me I mean it's not you know I know what's happened you know I've seen I've seen what's happened to these people either you're going to come in and be you know Sammy you know something already going to take care of the one way or another. Are you or. Because you lend your support let me you you tell me there's not do you what do you think of the Congo I mean you tell me about the Congo What do you think about the you talking about the De Lillo up those statues and all like crap you know the Statue of Liberty the Statue of Liberty should be melted down and sold in the money given to raise buildings uptown but nobody's you know what is the big stink made about those four little girls that were shot and killed in Birmingham they made more stink about Schwerner and Goodman because they were right and they had sacrificed themselves as white martyrs for the black cause then they made for those four kids or Medgar Evers' or emit till even my grandfather I mean there are a lot of black people dying every day and in the more all of this society that go on noticed but these two write poems go down there and get themselves not often right away it's a gray thing you know I mean no disrespect intended. You know if you don't you don't see the problem or you don't have that problem what problem a problem of the difference between making a political point and producing when you consider to be art or play no if you describe the life of average black man in America you have made a political point. You know rolling logs all you have to do is describe it with some amount of perception and you've made a political point there's no great. Bring in the bring in the propaganda from outside the world or anything like that know it exists that the context that this that this the situation exists and is sufficient to provide a political paraphrase of it you know are a socio economic paraphrase of it if you look you know you not know I'm not rolling logs the thing is there the situation is there all you have to do is write it exactly as it is and then people accuse you of being this or that but they don't accuse themselves of living in a society where this thing goes on you see and if you are trying to reflect exactly and with a great deal of precision the life of the world as it's going on as you see it then that's sufficient. Yes but. How do you explain this phenomenon the white people who even come here to pay to hear you speak about eliminating them.