Manoush Zomorodi: Hello, friend. This is an episode of Note to Self, but from when we used to be called New Tech City. Same good content, just the old name. Enjoy.

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Manoush Zomorodi: This is WNYC's New Tech City, the podcast where digital gets personal. I'm your host, Manoush Zomorodi.

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Daniel Brooks: What do you want?

Ashlynn: I want my iPad [cries].

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Manoush Zomorodi: That's two-year-old, Ashlynn.

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Ashlynn: I want my iPad [cries].

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Manoush Zomorodi: Her dad, Daniel Brooks posted her iPad temper tantrum on YouTube.

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Ashlynn: I want my iPad [cries].

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Manoush Zomorodi: He got a lot of nasty comments for giving the toddler an iPad in the first place, and a few more nasty comments for filming the tantrum with his iPhone, and then showing it to all of us on the internet. When technology and parenting meet, it can be more like a collision. We're figuring it out as we go along, but hopefully, this week's episode will help just a little bit.

It's an inside look into how the techies parent, how those people who are making all the iPads the gadgets, the ones writing all the code for these addictive games, designing the must-have app that we tap all day long, how do they deal with technology at home with their families? Do they know something that we regular folks don't? Maybe they've discovered the secret-just-right-balance.

On today's show, our friend, New York Times Tech Columnist, Nick Bilton gives us a roundup of how Silicon Valley folks manage screens and their kids.

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Nick Bilton: I said, "How do you kids like the iPad?" He barked at me, "They don't. We limit tech in our house".

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Manoush Zomorodi: Before we get to Nick, I want to tell you about my own chat with some techie parents, not in Silicon Valley, but the other smug self-anointed center of the hip and creative universe, Brooklyn. I wanted to see a techie parent in action for myself. A friend put me in touch with Sameer Ajmani. Sameer has a Ph.D. in Computer Science from MIT. He's been a software engineer at Google for over a decade. Consider him the logical thinker of the family.

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Sameer Ajmani: You need to iterate and keep trying and think about, "What went wrong and how do I fix it?" I think those are basic skills.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Sameer has three kids, baby Cole, four-year-old Olivia, and seven-year-old Nolan. How's this for a twist? His wife, Mandi, she's a child psychologist. She's cornered the market on emotional intelligence.

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Mandi: There's just a lot of self-doubt, a lot of questioning, a lot of insecurity about what's good and what's not good.

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Manoush Zomorodi: A techie and a child psychologist under one roof, double whammy. Text marts plus psychological know-how, come on, if these people don't have the answer to smart parenting, who does? Before I could uncover Mandi and Sameer's secrets, I needed to ingratiate myself with their kids.

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Nolan: Hi?

Manoush Zomorodi: Hi. What's your name?

Nolan: Nolan.

Manoush Zomorodi: How old are you?

Nolan: Seven.

Manoush Zomorodi: Seven. You're in-- [crosstalk]

Nolan: Almost seven.

Manoush Zomorodi: Almost seven. What grade are you in, Nolan?

Nolan: Second.

Manoush Zomorodi: Second grade. My son is in second grade, too.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Nolan gave me the grand tour. Books crammed into his shelves, stacks of board games in his room.

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Manoush Zomorodi: That is a lot of books.

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Manoush Zomorodi: So far, no screens to be found, just a really sweet kid who loves reading. Is that because gadgets are banned here? Not quite. I'd heard that Sameer and Mandi had done an extreme experiment on Nolan last summer. They wanted to test out the effects of technology for themselves. Call it evidence-based parenting.

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Sameer Ajmani: We were checking whether this whole idea of screen limits was really necessary or important.

Mandi: [laughs] This guy had said that he had seen the technology as the forbidden fruit, and by putting a lot of limits on it, made it more attractive and wanting them to play with it all they all the time.

Sameer Ajmani: I think this is some summer vacation week where Nolan was off. We said, "Do you know what? No limits. Watch as much shows, play as many games, do whatever you want. Go for it, enjoy yourself".

Mandi: This guy had said that when he did this with his kids, they self-regulated.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Self-regulating kids, yes? I'm sure that went really well.

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Mandi: He basically played screens all day long.

Sameer Ajmani: Our hope was that he would find his own balance and not overdo it. This did not exactly come to pass. He played long enough to give himself headaches and he would come out-- He'd put it down eventually and he'd be in the worst mood.

Mandi: Anyway, the experiment did not go well.

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Manoush Zomorodi: The week of no limits on screens was a total failure. All screens all the time turned Nolan into a zombie. After that, Sameer and Mandi decided to try some rules, but only on games and gadgets that were purely for fun. You know those games, parents; Minion Rush, Turbo Fast. The educational games and videos, still no limits.

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Manoush Zomorodi: You have like a folder on your iPad that says Nolan's fun games?

Sameer Ajmani: Yes, fun games and learning games in two different folders.

Manoush Zomorodi: Got you.

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Manoush Zomorodi: No limits on educational games didn't totally work out either.

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Mandi: You can see it in his body when he's been playing screens for too long. He is tired, he is cranky, his blood sugar is probably low, he is much more moody.

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Manoush Zomorodi: That's when they came up with the current rule, the kids get 30 minutes of fun screen time on weekdays, two hours on weekends. Sameer and Mandi are less rigid about educational stuff still, but now they watch the clock.

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Sameer Ajmani: We used to let him play Minecraft to his heart's content, now we do limit it because when I see him repeating the same thing over and over again, even within a game that's learning, I see he's not really gaining any new skills, he's just doing it to pass the time. That's where I said, "Enough of that. Let's try something fresh, something new".

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Manoush Zomorodi: During my visit, four-year-old Olivia used her half-hour by playing with a PBS app. She really liked that tiger that replaced Fred Rogers. As for Nolan, he built a virtual road on the family iPad with the Minecraft app.

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Nolan: I made a giant Minecart and then truck that went around the whole edges of the whole world.

Manoush Zomorodi: Of the whole world?

Nolan: Yes.

Manoush Zomorodi: That's fun.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Okay, confession, I don't know how to play Minecraft and I feel kind of bad because my son has been bugging me to install it on my iPad. I'm just wondering, is he really missing some vital 21st-century skill by not playing Minecraft or other learning so-called learning games? These are the ones that Sameer likes so much because the way he sees it, some screen time, and certain games can actually be healthy.

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Sameer Ajmani: Cut the Rope is another good one. Where there's usually some simple goal, like get the water to the alligator, or get the candy to the little guy, but they just get very rude goal [unintelligible 00:07:28] in their complexity and the kids are forced to reason about it and think about, "Okay, if I do this, then this will happen." We try and find games where we can play them with the kids. That's true for the games on the Wii, that's true for the games on the iPad.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Here's the problem, it's not just about fun time or setting limits. It's about making sure that your kids get the right skills that they need to get a job in the future, right? Because eventually all these jobs are going to require technological know-how.

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Manoush Zomorodi: What about later, do you think programming is going to be an important part of his childhood?

Sameer Ajmani: I think programming is an important skill to learn, but I don't think it's about learning any particular technology or making an app or anything specific like that. When my kids are doing something where I think they could use a computer to help them along, I might show them how, and say, "Look, here's a way that you can use this to avoid this repetitive task or this calculation, or look up this word." It's as simple as showing him that he can look up a word on the Kindle by long-pressing it. This is just saying, "Oh, look, this is a tool I can leverage." It isn't this mystery.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Like many of us, Sameer and Mandi are looking for balance. Does a Google engineer know something I don't about the dangers of screen time? Not really, but because he lives, breathes, and loves technology so much, he can integrate it into his family life in a different way. Technology isn't demonized or turned into a special reward for good behavior. I felt kind of jealous of this comfort level when I left Sameer's house. Then a few days later, he emailed me. He'd clearly been thinking about our discussion. Here's what he wrote me.

"Addiction--" He didn't say, "Dear Manoush", or anything, he just launched right into this in his email. "Addiction in the 1960s was about sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The response in the '80s was safe sex education, say no to drugs, and the commoditization of popular music. This generation, the addictions are games, social media, and up-buzz click bait-worthy articles. What's the response?" He wondered.

The official response from the American Academy of Pediatrics is this, "It's to limit entertainment, screen time to less than one or two hours per day, and absolutely no screens for kids under two years old." After spending time with Sameer and his family, I'm really interested that they say limit entertainment screen time, that they specify entertainment. Like there's a difference. We don't really know yet. Coming up on New Tech City, the techie response from the other side of the country, New York Times Columnist, Nick Bilton, and parenting lessons from Silicon Valley.

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Nick Bilton: The reality was that they actually have a better understanding of where tech can go wrong than most non-tech parents do.

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Manoush Zomorodi: We're back, it's New Tech City. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and on this episode, we're talking about techies and their families, what their rules are about screens and video games. I'd like to introduce a very special guest for this show, Nick Bilton, tech Columnist for The New York Times, author of Hatching Twitter. Hey, Nick.

Nick Bilton: Hi, how are you doing?

Manoush Zomorodi: I am good. Nick, a few weeks back, you had a story in The Times that just stayed and stayed at the top of the most emailed list of articles, and it was called Steve Jobs Was a Low-Tech Parent. The title is pretty obvious, but tell us about the conversation that you had with Steve Jobs.

Nick Bilton: Well, there's this little secret that people in journalism know, but people in the public don't that Steve Jobs used to call people all the time and yell at them about their articles, what they had written, and so on. I was on the receiving end of one of those calls, and I tried to change the subject at one point and said, "Hey", this is in 2010, I said, "Do your kids like the iPad"? and he's barked at me, "Well, they don't. We limit tech in our house." I was completely shocked. He would talk a little bit about how he tells his kids how much they can use technology and so on.

What I found over the years is that I have bumped into more and more people in tech that have said that, executives at Facebook and Twitter and Apple and all of these companies, and I found that really interesting and finally I started to ask people why. The reality was that they actually have a better understanding of where tech can go wrong than most non-tech parents do.

Manoush Zomorodi: Why did you think it was time to resurface it now? What did you feel was going on around your world that made you think, "You know what? I'm going to write a piece about this".

Nick Bilton: I have a niece and nephew and their names are Luca and Willow. Luca is nine and he loves Minecraft, and my niece is also heavily addicted to it. I was over at my sister's place, and she was arguing once again with Luca a few weeks ago about his time limits during the week. She said that there's no iPad during the week and he said, "Well, Friday is not during the week, it's the beginning of the weekend." It was this big debate. My sister asked my advice, and I didn't really know the answer. I decided I would start calling around to some of the people I know.

One of the people that I came across that was really interesting was Chris Anderson, who used to run WIRED and now runs a drone company, and he was talking about how he has five kids and he is incredibly strict with his kid's use of technology, there is absolutely no screen time during the week, there is an adamant rule that there's no gadgets allowed in the bedroom, it doesn't matter if you are two years old or 96.

Manoush Zomorodi: Here's what I have an issue with, is I find this idea that a person like Steve Jobs, who has made something, the iPhone, the iPad, that has so infiltrated my life, that he doesn't use it with his children. This makes me think like, what does he know that I don't know? Like a drug dealer who doesn't touch the stuff that he deals.

Nick Bilton: Well, that's probably the best drug dealer, right? There were rules like absolutely no gadgets at the dinner table, dinnertime was devoted to talking about history and art and books and things like that. If you look at that, and you ask that question of what Steve Jobs know that we don't, I think that it's not just what Steve Jobs knows, I think it's what anyone that works in these industries knows, and that is that anything that you do in excess is probably not good for you.

Manoush Zomorodi: You did talk to other tech parents who have found ways of balancing, who think that they've figured it out without having to go to extremes. I think one of the people you talk to was Ali Partovi, and he's the founder of iLike, he's an advisor to Facebook, Dropbox, Zappos, and actually, we have a clip we can play for you of how he manages it.

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Ali Partovi: The rules for them are zero TV on school nights. My kids don't surf the web or watch YouTube. However, they get unlimited computer time if it's for creativity. They love to take photos and make videos, and all three kids enjoy computer programming.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Okay, so that's how Alli does it. There's a difference he says between consuming and creating.

Nick Bilton: Yes. Ali runs a website called Code.org, which teaches kids how to code. He eats his own dog food, as they say in Silicon Valley. He lets his kids use these different products, these technologies to make things.

Manoush Zomorodi: That's a beautiful thing, but let's admit that Ali Partovi, he's acting as an adviser to Facebook, this is a company that makes a lot of money off of advertising. That's how a lot of these techie parents pay their bills, right? I've spoken in the past on New Tech City to Susan Lin. She's the founder of the Campaign for Commercial-Free Childhood. She's also a psychologist at Harvard Medical School. To me, she really put the digital age in a very stark perspective.

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Susan Lin: No parents in history have ever had to cope with the unprecedented convergence of a ubiquitous, sophisticated, alluring habit-forming screen technology, and unfettered, unregulated advertisement. That combination is really, I think, what the major problem is.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Okay, a combination, addiction and advertising, bring them together, you've got a toxic cocktail. That's what Susan Lin is worried about. How many of these parents that you spoke to talked about not wanting their kids to be infiltrated by advertising?

Nick Bilton: Exactly, none. No one said anything about that. I thought that was shocking. I spoke to people from Facebook, I spoke to people from Twitter, and so on. I think that they understand the problems that come with that, but at the same time, they see bigger issues to worry about with the addiction problems. One thing that I did learn about when I was interviewing people for the story was, there's a piece of software called OpenDNS, you can get it at opendns.org. What it does is you can install it on the router in your home for Wi-Fi access, and then you can set up a bunch of rules.

You can say there's certain things that people can't see, the router won't work at certain times. There's all these different things that you can do, and there are very strict rules. You can say, "Literally, no one in this house can go to youtube.com or watch any videos from that website".

Manoush Zomorodi: Nick, there's this other New York Times article that gets mentioned alongside your Steve Jobs article. It's kind of gone down as legend. This is one by Matt Richtel from a few years ago about parents who work in Silicon Valley and they send their kids to Waldorf schools. Now, if you aren't familiar with Waldorf, here's a description of their policy on tech and kids.

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Wendy Kelly: Waldorf schools actually see society's emphasis on electronics and screen time as quite detrimental. The Rudolf Steiner School and other Waldorf schools strongly subscribe to a no-tech approach to education in the early childhood through the lower grades.

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Manoush Zomorodi: That was Wendy Kelly. She's from the Waldorf Rudolf Steiner School, actually here in New York. As far as you can tell, is no-tech in families a big thing in Silicon Valley?

Nick Bilton: It's interesting, I just moved down to Los Angeles, and all the Hollywood execs that make all these movies also send their kids to Waldorf schools.

Manoush Zomorodi: That's interesting.

Nick Bilton: It's funny, one venture capitalist reached out to me after I read this article and said, "I completely ban my kids from any technology, with the exception of like an hour window on Sunday mornings." Then this guy said to me, "They're perfectly capable of living in the 15th century".

Manoush Zomorodi: Nick Bilton is columnist for The New York Times. You can now find him on Thursdays in the Style Section. Thanks, Nick.

Nick Bilton: Thanks for having me.

Manoush Zomorodi: All right. So go on. Tell us your parenting and tech rules. No screens during the week? Only use a computer for homework? Maybe you have a more laissez-faire attitude. Record yourself using the voice memo app on your phone and email it to us at newtechcity.org. You just might be on next week's show. If you know a parent trying to figure this all out, send them this episode or post it on Facebook and tag them. You're doing me a favor, them too.

I forgot to tell you my family rules. I got to say this is a little controversial. I am not crazy about the games, any of them. I would rather that my kids watch a show, get immersed in a story. Right now, our favorite is this wacky BBC comedy called Grandpa in My Pocket. Or should I say Grandpa in My Pocket? It's funny. There's a narrative act, there's a little less than at the end. There's no swiping, swiping across the screen. My children are calm, not agitated when we turn it off, but then maybe this is how a journalist parents. Coming up next week, an episode that will make you think differently about space and the universe, and life on our planet. I'm making big promises, but I think I can come through for you. We've got two women absolutely obsessed with space travel. One who actually went.

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Participant: Once I felt the rocket engines going and the rumbling and the vibrations, I knew it was real.

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Manoush Zomorodi: The other woman with a ticket to go.

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Participant 2: I'm one of the first people who actually purchased a ticket on Virgin Galactic. It took a second mortgage on my house to pay for my tickets.

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Manoush Zomorodi: This is one of my favorite episodes ever. It almost made me want to overcome my claustrophobia and get my own ticket to space. Really, seriously, don't miss it. Subscribe on iTunes, or wherever you like to listen to on-demand audio, and at newtechcity.org, there's a handy little subscribe button on the right. You can also always leave your comments there. We love to hear from you. Or you can tweet us @NewTechCity or me directly @manoushz. Thanks so much for me and the team. This is New Tech City from WNYC.

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Manoush Zomorodi: Not the shrinking cap grandpa [laughs]. I thought it was a joke. We found it I was like, "Oh, it's like fake show or something." No, it's just British humor, so good. Grandpa in my pocket? Of course, you're recording that. I should know that.

 

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