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--The Leonard Lopate Show
You may not have time to look at this but, the comment about the hudaibiya treaty was incorrect. Rather than waste your time I refer you to the Koran sura 9 v 7 where the story begins. The exact rendering is in the same sura v13. The treaty was in Feb. 628 or A.H. 6 and states that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: For God doth love the righteous. I must state that this is an english translation of the Koran by A. Yusuf Ali and published by the Islamic Foundation, which I understand to be, a highly praised translation with extensive footnotes and references. Publishers address is 223 London road, Leicester LE2 1ZE, UK. Copyright is 1975. It would seem that your guest may have inadvertantly misused the treaty's facts in the Koran or not have fully researched the information. I have no axe or adze to grind, but was ever so slightly appalled (sp?) by a lack of challenge to her factual certainty. Best Wishes and carry on. James.
I think Ms. Gabriel is an extremist herself. If we want to really stand against extremism of any type, we should do it by embracing diversity, not suppressing our opponents and further radicalizing them. If we buy into Ms. Gabriel's plan we would turn the U.S. into one giant Guantanamo.
i agree wholeheartedly, something needs to be said about why after all these comments
I think Leonard owes us all an apology for this guest.
THANK YOU. HOW BRAVE.
This was the most biggoted and prejudiced presentation I have heard on NPR. Gabrielle is no journalist, but a propagandist sponsored and supported by the most right-wing and, dare I say, fascist elements in Israel and their proxies in Lebanon. Despite distorting Lebanese and world history, her sole purpose is to demonize and dehumanize anyone who is a Muslim and or Arab who disagrees with right-wing Israeli policies in the Middle East. After all, if the whole problem is because Palestinians are Muslims, why would anyone ever have to question the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories and Lebanon, the violence of land expopriation policies for such "democratic ideals" as "god gave the land to the Jews?"
Israel E-News provides a very revealing history behind the so-called reporter: http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=1481.
I am deeply saddened by WNYC for allowing such a hate-monger. But, of course, if you are maligning Muslims and Arabs, it's perfectly justifiable. Imagine if someone wrote a book by the same title about Jews. Would Leonard have the author of such a book on his program?
so we can confirm --
if there's anything the bubble of NYC Republican-bashers who comment on this page can't stand more than Bush is those who have the courage to speak out about Radical Islam.
and the attacks on Leonard - wow!
Please check out:
www.TheReligionofPeace.com - Islam: Making a True Difference in the World
and feel free to comment on the daily list of atrocities ---
not everything can be blamed on the Republicans - lol
Just because 99.9% of muslims are peace loving doesn't mean radical islam is NOT a grave threat.
I would be inclined to give Ms. Gabriel a half of chance if I believed she was being true to her purported agenda of having those within islam speaking out against the fundamentalism within the religion. However, because Ms. Gabriel seems only capable of spreading such disinformation I can't give her any credibility.
For those who believe Ms. Gabriel's harrowing experience as a child gives her latitude for her shrill presence....I wonder if you are equally 'lenient' with young inner city youth who experience violence daily as children and grow up believing violence is an acceptable way to express oneself.
Thanks JAR. Good points.
Ms. Gabriel has a right to her opinion. Mr. Lopate and other media personalities have the right to have her on their shows and air those beliefs. But, it seems obvious that if Ms. Gabriel made such sweeping statements about Christians or Jews, Blacks or Asians, she would be shunned. Yet, since she is disparaging Muslims, she gets a platform to speak, joining the list of other critics such as Irshad Manji, Hirsi Ali, and Wafa Sultan, whose knowledge of Islam and Muslims is informed either via willful ignorance or deceit. Seems that all one has to do to get a hearing is to be a "native" informant - ideally, a woman - who spreads the party line about how awful Muslims are. END
Gabriel mentions the lack of women's rights in "Islam," talking about disenfranchisement in Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc. Yet, she only cites examples in Saudi Arabia. While it would be ludicrous to say that women enjoy equality in any of these countries (just as it would be ludicrous to claim the same in most parts of the world, including the United States), it is disingenuous to expand the Saudi experience to other countries. In fact, women are able to vote in every country she cites (even serving in parliaments and holding government ministries), except for Saudi Arabia and a couple of Gulf states (all of which enjoy intimate relations with the US). Women drive, are educated, work out of the home, are entitled to property and resources apart from their husbands (which in fact is guaranteed in the Qu'ran), to divorce, etc. Are things perfect? Far from it. Is there discrimination? Absolutely. Do women, despite rights guaranteed them in civil and religious law sometimes get the short end of things? Yes. But to say that women in the Islamic world have no agency is as ridiculous as saying the same about women in Judaism by simply observing the lives of ultra-Orthodox Jewish women. Continued...
Ms. Gabriel spews nothing but ignorance and hate. It is disappointing that Leonard Lopate would give her a forum to spread her grotesque exaggerations about Muslims and Islam. Are their horrible Muslims? Of course. Are there things in in the Qu'ran that are troubling to the sensibilities of free-thinkers in the 21st century? Certainly. Yet, one finds those in abundance in Christianity and Judaism too. Gabriel reduces the acts of some "Islamic" radicals (in quotes since most Muslims do not recognize their activities as adhering to any Islam that they recognize) as essential to Islam. She ignores the context in which violence is committed, as a reaction to decades of violent repression, political disenfranchisement, torture, "ethnic cleansing," etc. suffered by hundreds of millions, in much of the "Islamic" world, aided, encouraged, and abetted, by the US and Europe. directly or via proxies, including many "Muslims" themselves. This doesn't justify every (or maybe, any) act of violence. But, violent reactions to terrible circumstances are not unique to Muslims. Witness US military actions all over the world. Continued...
No religion is a fixed thing but is a cultural element which evolves...so to refer to Islam as a peacefull religion should beg the question which Islam?, from what time period or country?
All religions operate by giving believers a "specialness" identity on some level, creating categories of believers and non-believers, "saved" or "chosen" people. And textual examination of of these ancient books will provide ample justification for genocide and conquest to propagate the faith. No question.
Some of the books are also a source of wisdom and spirituality, even principles of justice. But we shouldn't deny the other insidious tendencies of all major religions.
The discussion which focuses on which religion is worse in this respect is pointless. The following awareness needs more emphasis in the media: social desperation/anger plus a bronze age religious ideology (take your pick which)equals danger to all.
I thought the Lebanon example was fascinating, a democratic country totally subverted through their own leniency and tolerance. She was shrill, but then she is pushing her book. Besides it sounds like she's been through a horrific life experience. Who wouldn't be shrill?
Everyone is going off on how radical and out of control the speaker is. Granted she is passionate about her cause and not all the facts a straight but I am still most concerned about that percentage of radical Islamic extremists who use religion to justify mass murder and seem to hold moderate Islam at bay. I am equally concerned about the fundamentalist Christians in this country and their agendas such as the erosion of the separation of church and state. We have more than one organized bully to worry about these days.
"1. The moderate Muslim is doing nothing to reduce radicals."
First of all why do they have to? I don't have to go out and attack anyone on the extreme side of my faith.
How are Muslims in say Iraq supposed to stay "moderate" when we decimate their ENTIRE lives. I don't understand how oppressed people can progress when things just keep getting worse.
"2. This country's public institutions can at no time cater to religious groups. Example teaching religion in public schools or public pools catering to hasic women. Harvard is a private institution and can do whatever they want. "
I totally agree but we need to level the playing field. Take away all religious reference in government docs. Strip religious marriage rights, ban religious lobbying efforts such as AIPAC.
69,How is this different than a Muslim in Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan or Egypt or Lebanon saying: "Extreme Christians are out to get us, make no mistake. They occupy our lands by force. We see all the atrocities they committed in history..."
You just assert it and then that is to be the organizing principle of our society?
"Those who perpetrated the Holocaust were Christians? Let me not count myself among your listeners. The historical comparisons of these comments is at about a Fourth Grade level. The Left is as irrational as FOX"
I was using hyperbole in response to her blanket generalizations about Islam and radical Islam. In my defense I will go on record saying that those who perpetuated and ignored the Holocaust were mostly church going Christians and look up the origins of anti-Semitism and you will find a common thread.
This woman made some excellent points despite her crazy presentation.
1. The moderate Muslim is doing nothing to reduce radicals.
2. This country's public institutions can at no time cater to religious groups. Example teaching religion in public schools or public pools catering to hasic women. Harvard is a private institution and can do whatever they want.
Extreme Muslims are out to get us, make no mistake. All the atrocities that the west (and the rest of the non-Muslim world) have committed down through the ages are irrelevant.
Dislike the messenger here, if you like. She certainly is shrill. Criticize her facts, as she doesn't seem to worry about backing them up too well. But don't presume that she is wrong about the general trends about Islam and Islamofaschists.
"Are there ever any free thinking people on this board?"
By free thinking do you mean people that are willing to listen to anything? Hasn't this past 8 years proved enough that dumb objectivity does NOTHING for democracy.
"You accuse this speaker of fear mongering and espousing biased rhetoric."
She is supposed to be a journalist. The title of her book is enough to offended every group ever. "They"?
"This woman makes a lot of valid points even if you don't agree with everything she says. "
There are valid points and there are facts. She needs to speak facts as a journalist not valid points peppered with speculation.
"And please remember that this is 2008! Not 1968. Times they have and are a changin."
Uh... with people like this nothing will change.
#65 "karen" - lol
"Even if you don't like her, it is OK to have people like this on the show. She has a book and a constituency so let us hear (and debunk)."
Please let's us have a follow-up. I'm still trying to decode those shrieks currently ringing in my head.
I have never EVER heard anyone go off like that. It's absolutely incredible. I would love to have her back on but in a timed debate.
Those who perpetrated the Holocaust were Christians? Let me not count myself among your listeners. The historical comparisons of these comments is at about a Fourth Grade level. The Left is as irrational as FOX
I can't believe how simplistic this guest's views are, please refrain from the national habit of dumming issues down
Are there ever any free thinking people on this board? You accuse this speaker of fear mongering and espousing biased rhetoric. However, I see the same posters on this message board day after day espousing the same knee jerk liberal positions regardless of the topic. This woman makes a lot of valid points even if you don't agree with everything she says. Wake up people and stop pretending that violence, hate, prejudice, and oppression is only doled out by the West! I recommend reading Iyaan Hirsi Alli's book "Infidel" for another perspective. And please remember that this is 2008! Not 1968. Times they have and are a changin.
"I agree with her to great degree as a firm atheist with a strong opposition to religion, but she needs to hold all examples of fundamentalist strains of all religions accountable, "
I don't know how any self-respecting atheist can agree with someone that thinks Israel should be a "Jewish State." Judaism is a religion a faith and Israel is a theocracy.
I draw the line with Bill Maher there, he is staunch atheist but a staunch supporter of Israel. The hypocrisy is just too much.
I can't stand to hear this woman ranting on like a maniac anymore! Let her express her cause with more calm, or let her shut up and stop badgering our ears off. She is not serving her cause by turning people off to her person.
Advocating racial profiling here in America and other hateful programs. This speaker has absolutely no rationality and if we follow her prescription for fighting radical Islam, we will surely have a war of civilization. We will turn the entire Muslim population against us.
To echo some of the above: who is the "us," the "them," your guest so insistently identifies? I have no idea what this person is doing on this show, unless it tells me more about this show than I ever wanted to know. It's not that I don't want to hear from guests whose views I disagree with, but this guest gives every indication of having zero credibility. (Plus, rapid-fire, groundless fear-mongering hysteria makes for lousy radio.)
She is extremely ignorant and loud. She thinks it is about "political correctness" to understand such a large community and its history. She is blinded by bombs and assasinations and cannot comprehend complexities of faith and culture. We do not need one more contribution to the ongoing mob spirit that creates cardboard version of cultures. Arrogence of ignorance, that is what she is.
I agree with her to great degree as a firm atheist with a strong opposition to religion, but she needs to hold all examples of fundamentalist strains of all religions accountable, esp. the example of Baruch Goldstein still being regarded as a hero by many in Israel after walking in to a mosque and machine-gunning worshipers.
I agree with her to great degree as a firm atheist with a strong opposition to religion, but she needs to hold all examples of fundamentalist strains of all religions accountable, esp. the example of Baruch Goldstein still being regarded as a hero by many in Israel after walking in to a mosque and machine-gunning worshippers.
Hey Folks .. Bravo to all of you ! You see through her tragic hysteria clearly. I feel embarrassed for LL and all of us. Wahamdillah (thank god... and I am not muslim) the interview is over . THIS is the reason why the Middle east is not the "Holy Land" but remains the unholy land of eternal conflict and hate.
Even if you don't like her, it is OK to have people like this on the show. She has a book and a constituency so let us hear (and debunk).
"They Must Be Stopped"? SHE must be stopped.
While the speaker has legitimate concerns about radicalism in the world, she should take a closer look at herself. Her own fears about radicalism have radicalized herself.
Heck the 10 Commandments actually endorse slavery!
Leonard , please, I beg you, say "that's all the time we have"
Ok, the racial profiling comment was too much. End this soon, please!
Your comment that women in Judaism are looked down upon women because men thank G-d for not making them a woman shows a deep ignorance about traditional Judaism. This blessing has deep meanings that goes beyond your liberal non-religious point of view. I suggest you understand how the religion explains its own convtoversial verses before speaking out of ignorance.
Leonard I can not believe you would have this woman on your show!
i'm white. i've never been profiled.
The 9/11 bombers were mostly Saudis and that was a political attack.
This guest is another in a long line of right wing crazies that the western media seems to have no limit of fascination for.
Ask her about Iraq, who was threatened by Iraq?
Ask her about Georgia, who started the conflict?
Ask her about the NeoCons, maybe that's why there aren't any Jewish suicide bombers, they hold America in a Zionist paranoid illusion.
As long as you keep calling one religion better than another, you are heading for trouble. You are making culturally based value judgments about the rights of women. Instead I would advise that instead you talk about a level of international discourse that is separate and apart from religion and that goes back to an international law rather than scripturally based attitudes.
She reminds me a lot of Meir Kahane.
Those were the days my friends, now I am not stupid anymore.
She jumps all over the place - I am sorry but I can not follow her logic, even with her anglican name.
Why she calls herself a westerner? does she hate her background? as an Arab?
orthodox jews do get preferential treatment at gyms! we have women only time at our local pool for just this demographic. granted, any woman can go, but the time is there for them. and i think that makes sense in a community with a lot of orthodox jewish women.
this is worse than the takeaway...
Are YOU KIDDING ME? If Jewish people at Harvard wanted their own gym hours they could get them.
She is NUTS!
Does this woman even live in America.
Oh great get involved and monitor your suspicious Arab neighbors! What!?! What the f*&@ is she talking about!
OMG. Her solution is the best part. Spy/ fear the Islamic citizens in the USA. Great spread the hate/fear.
This woman is horrible. People like her are the problem.I can't believe you have given her a voice on your show.Shame on all of you at the show.
It says in Quran that if you kill one human, it's like you killed the whole humanity.
Please Calm down ladyIm switching off
Your guest backs up her points with specific peices of information that are leading to suicide bombings and terrorists. I can't believe leonard and some guests respond with comments like some jews thanking god they aren't women. Are you kidding. This is pseudo liberal equivalence. does a prayer equate to 9/11 and suicide bombers?
If I may add.. the "facist" tendency of Islam is common to most of the popular religions that have branched off from Judaism. NO one can argue that Christians represent pure peace and open minded utopia. All of the "people of the book" inherited these evils. Not just the Koran. OK now she stepped over the line, when she just said that Christians, Jews and Bhuddists see people as equals. She is pandering to us when she states something that is just factually false. As a Native American I am well aware of the cruelty and genocide that Christians are capable of. I have to officially declare her as a dangerous "nut".
An Imam I know explained the to me.
"1400+ years ago, the Prophet Muhammad told his followers that there would one day be a "great evil" arsing from Najd (central Arabia). In the 18th century a man named Muhammad Abdel Wahab was born. He was dissatisfied with the way in which Tassawuf (Sufi) groups held an influence over the Muslim world. He devised his own school of thought that would "return" Islam to a "pure" state. Thus was born the Wahabbi sect."
Does the speaker differentiate among muslim sects?
wait, women don't have equal rights in america, and we are, supposedly, a secular country. i'd bet that countries with official christian and jewish religions, also don't have equal rights for women. it's not the religions that are causing inequality for women. that is just ridiculous.
i can find you a lot of torah and bible verses that rationalize injustice.
where are the demonstrations in the street when innocent iraqi civilians are killed by the machinations of the US government?
Good GOD, Please, give this woman the hook!She has the most irritating voice I think I've ever heard.I have no idea what she's saying, because I cant hear her ideas over the fingernails on a blackboard voice.
This woman is bigot and a shrill angry person.
I am so upset right now. All the major "faiths" including Buddhism have radical terrorist groups that kill people they don't agree with.
Christians have enslaved and killed thousands. The Holocaust? They were were Christians.
Please don't ask her back without another view.
I wonder about the judgment of having this woman on your show during the month of Ramadan.
Shari'a is incompatible with Western style Democracy. I don't care what anyone wants to pray to, but if Muslims want to live under Shari'a let them live in a country where Shari'a is law.
Please drop this guest.
I am listening to Rush Limbaugh or the Laura Ingraham show?
This woman is hate-filled and ignorant. Yeah, there are not many individual Jewish suicide bombers; the Israelies just bomb entire villages. She is just using womens' rights as a veil for her hatemongering speech. I want to know who she talked to for her book.
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
She does seem full of hate. It is really easy to find the fault in others, a lot harder to look in the mirror.
I have to say that your speaker is does not have all her facts straight. The horrors that she sites are terrible, but the facts must be accurate.Example no 1:That treaties do not matter. It is in the Quran in surah Bakarah that says that you must have things in writing.Example no 2: She said that it states in the Quran that 9 year old girls can marry when it does not.
I'm all for having a discussion on Islam, but please be accurate.
They all want to kill atheist anyway so what do i care.
I am also a Middle Eastern Christian but unlike Ms. Gabriel, who likes the term "Islamo-fascism," I think it's a must to talk justice -her ranting on your show was atrocious - and she never addressed the injustices over the last century imposed by colonial/western powers.
i was glad to hear you (Leonard) stand up to her.
SHE must be stopped .....shame she used her time on your show to rant and rave. Did you KNOW she was so SHRILL..... good grief!
How can she call herself a "journalist" when she writes a book entitled "They Must Be Stopped?"
Does she understand the HISTORY or the CONTEXT of the religion in those lands? Political oppression have suppressed democracies in all those countries including Iran.
WHAT EXACTLY MAKES THIS WOMAN AN AUTHORITY ON HER SUBJECT? SOUNDS LIKE SHE IS FULL OF HATE.
We were not brought to our knees on Sept. 11th. Yes we were sucker punched, or took one to the gut, but we were not threatened, we can only destroy ourselves, and we've been doing a good job of that these last 7 years.
This woman speaks half truths convincingly - yet at the end of the day she is a fear monger. Ask her where she gets her facts from please. Ask her to look at the 2007 Pew Study on the majority of Muslims being moderate.
Brigitte BRAVO BRAVO!
About time people started talking about the issue of the moderates not doing there part to confront the radical Muslims.
No religion in public schools!!!
"The Muslims are out-reproducing us 7 to 1."Did I hear this right? Really, all the muslims in the world? Who is us? Monks?
This guest does not care about the truth. I urge all to read her wiki page. She has interesting opinions on the totality of Arabs.
Would the Deity throw to Hell all these Fundies and haters, this guest included.
"...because we're Republicans...uh...er...Christians."
Freud bumped her right off the cliff.
She's talking so fast, I like it but I can hardly keep up.
Agreed. This woman is taking things out of context. Pure fear mongering. Send her back to Fox News or the other 24 hour Cable networks. She even talks like she is picking a fight her tone and speed. Please get her off the air. Our war with Islamic Fundamentalism is not the main threat to the USA.
I am sure Leonard is only too happy to have this fear mongering guest.
Keep it up Lenny. Mask the Real Issues as NPR syndicated hosts always do.
Great job. Really...
Islamo fascism? Nazism? Why don't we call them child molesters, it does not matter if the slur fits, as long as it is a bad slur, right?
Nazis, fascists? I don't think so, why not call them theocrats? Fundamentalists? Dangerous extremists, etc? These seem to be more apt.
The problem with using Islam to describe them is that the 99.999% of normal Muslims do not like being associated with terrorists.
McVeigh was not called a Christian extremist, same with the Atlanta/abortion clinic bomber, etc.
So the author believes that only Islamic radicals are capable of these political problems?Her urgency, rather than convincing me of the "rightness" of her cause, instead reminds me of the atrocities committed by Christians against Muslims in Lebanon (which she conveniently left out), and the west in the middle east in general. The longer she rants the more this degrades into an anti Islamic tirade. Oblivious of the horror of the Shah's Iran and the fact that the first terrorists were Christian whites in this country in the south, this person is obsessed with their world view. Objectiveness be damned.
It sounds like the religous right and radical islam have a lot of common ground with each other.
I understand what the speaker is trying to say, however, when you use words like "nazi" and "facists" just turns people against each other. Most people will listen to only half of what is said and associate Islam, which is a beautiful religion of peace, as a terrorist organization. I am disgusted with the hijacking of my religion by these hateful terms. Islam gave all people, including women, rights of freedom 635A.D. Islam is not the enemy, people who have extreme ideas, whether calling themselves Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc are the enemy.
We should be vigilant against all forms of religio-fascism.
i APPRECIATE HER POINT OF VIEW BUT i DON'T THINK WE NEED THIS FEAR MONGERING PARANOIA INDUCING CHATTER RIGHT NOW
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