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You persist in whitewashes Hamas & rationalizing terrorism against Israeli civilians
When Israel erected a security fence and imposed a blockade on Gaza following its withdrawal from the territory in 2005, Palestinian terrorists had to find other means of killing Jews. Hamas chose rockets, which, while occasionally injuring and even killing Israeli civilians, were not nearly as lethal as men detonating themselves in crowded shopping malls.
Lamenting the greater number of Palestinian civilian casualties (due almost entirely to the Hamas practice of using women and children as human shields) is a perennial tactic of Israel's critics like you.
The logic of your position dictates that Israel should wait until some critical mass of its own civilians is killed before eventually fighting back.
Fortunately, for thousands of Israeli women children & men, Israel is not relying on you for it's security.
fair minded readersdoes this look like a "viable state" http://djiin.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/21-oslo-ii.gif
A terrorist is always a terrorist. The specific targeting of women and children is terrorism. Holding Jews to a different standard, suggesting that Jews do not have the right to self defense, is just more of your hate.
i come here to have debate and discussion on various topics and gain a better understanding, you come here to spread hate and stop free thinking.
In the future, I suggest that you gain a better understanding of basic facts before spreading your hate and then having to take it all back. Your first research should be about the last few months of the B. Clinton's administration. You will find that Israel offered the Palestinians a viable state and the Palestinians responded with suicide killers. You must get through your Jewish hate fog to find the truth.
Kelly just remember one man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter"
peterFYIIsrael is a nation in the middle east
Judaism (jew) is a religion found through out the world.
you may see them as the same i don't
any one would cares to read the posts above knows that you can twist anything to make it anti-Semitic. you do your case a disservice, any fair minded person can see what u are doing and i do not seek your approval. you show yourself as one of the extremist who stand in the way of moving forward. i come here to have debate and discussion on various topics and gain a better understanding, you come here to spread hate and stop free thinking. i see replying to you has always been a waste of my time.good luck with your jehad.
i never said i agreed with the PAL's strategy (I don't) nor would I say the PAL have had good leaders, who could. a handful of extremist with homemade rockets have killed about 15 Israelis, so Israel kills about 1300 PAL. OK so now what. oh the rockets are still continuing by the way. but the pre-election january attacks did nothing for peace. I'm am sorry for the death of 15 Israelis, I'm 90 times as sorry for the poorly government staving palestinians who seem to be trapped in the middle ages. so my question continues to be what is Israel a modern state, a democracy, doing to help peace, to support moderates and to move forward in history. seems to me after january more orphans = more terrorist tomorrow. war without end is good for business.
The lesson of Gaza to Israelis is identical to the lesson of south Lebanon, and a cautionary tale regarding withdrawal from the West Bank: "Land for peace" concessions have failed and become "land for terrorism." Until there is far better security in the West Bank, few Israelis would risk withdrawing the IDF from operating there.
The Israeli-Arab conflict is now part of a broader struggle in the region over Iranian extremism and power. Israeli withdrawals now risk opening the door not only to Palestinian terrorists but to Iranian proxies.
As I have explained many times, many people (I dare say most), make no distinction between Israel and Jews. When you spread lies about Israel, you are spreading lies about Jews. It is funny that YOUR argument is that you are uneducated and make untrue statements about Israel, not Jews. I wouldn’t be proud of either.
What have the Arabs done in the last 20 years to exhibit any interest in peace?? Just a couple of "intifadas" - i.e. terror wars against Israeli civilians. Perhpas you don't care about Israeli civilians, and prefer Israel sucks it up after 8 years of rocket attacks in the South against civilians, but Israel does care about it's civilians, thankfully, and they finally responded - yes before the elections and yes with planes and missiles and American taxpayer money. And when Hamas cynically uses civilians as human shields ((i.e. those Gazan civilians they haven't already butchered becuase they were Fatah members or "collabarators") then the tragic consequence of Hamas's actions is that when they provoke Israel - civilians will die. No Hamas rockets, no Israeli retaliation.
So actually, for 20 years, the most Israel offer the Palestinians is quite evidently less than any Palestinian politician is prepared to accept. Those who say "the outlines of an 2 state solution agreement are well known" are wrong: To the extent that such outlines are "well known," they are unacceptable to both sides or they would have led to a deal long ago. Meanwhile, Fatah as a party is moribund. Its reputation for incompetence and corruption remains what it was when Arafat was alive, for there has been no party reform despite endless promises. If democracy is impossible without democratic parties, the collapse of Fatah suggests that a future independent Palestine would either be run by Hamas and other extremists and terrorists or become a one-party "republic" on the model of Tunisia or Egypt.
kellythat's an opinion based on observation of the last 20 years. opinions can not be lies as they are just a personal beliefthanks for agreeing i never said anything about "jews." you seem reasonable.my opinion is based on any lack of constructive actions by israel to support peace (ie working with moderate PAL groups so there is some opposition to islamic extremists) and fetish bombing of PAL ruble into smaller ruble following the actions of a handful of islamic extremists.if we are ready for an adult discussion u could explain how the actions of israel before their elections (bombing and killing of PAL civilians) will lead to a 2 state solution and peace in between the palestinians and isreal?
I'll let Peter respond regarding lying about Jewsyou certainly lied about Israel, aka the Jewish State, when you said:
"israel also seems to enjoy war without end."
peter"Lying about Jews" please point out where i did that.
Peter - you seem right on
Lying about Jews is not the same thing as defending Palestinian human rights. You should be able to support the Palestinians (or any group of people) without spewing lies about Jews. Is the Palestinian cause and argument so weak that you have to make stuff up? There is a Palestinian case to be made, but it should be done honestly, without denying history and being anti-Jewish. The bottom line is that you do little for human rights by ranting on topics you admitted knowing little about.
no hjs - you pov is quite evident...
but nice attempt at obfuscation, lol
kellyi think u're misrepresenting my POV (as others here also do)i have not called for the ethnic cleansing of any group.i'm not the issue and i'm unsure how beating me helps your issue. guess the goal is to silence free thought, i get it. kelly, u win tooi won't defend the human rights of the palestinians, here, anymore.
Thanks peter. You are right and I'm sure you will condem the Europeans and America who have killed more people in the past fer centuries than anybody.
#51 - HJS
You lose Have a good war - one day you will run out of Jews and Israelis, people with disabilities, GLBT, religious minorities, and other kuffars.
And then there will be more war.
The world will be better without genocide and supporters of genocide.
That's right. America will be better without racists.
peteryou winhave a good war. one day you run out of arabs and then there will be peace.
you can't debate with us people because you weigh in on topics with very limited knowledge. For example, you wrote, "israel also seems to enjoy war without end." But then you admit you don't understand basic facts about the conflict. So, I agree with you, you really shouldn't be debating areas when you hold limited knowledge, and the knowledge you do hold is based on hate of Jews.
the truthno hard time, i enjoy it!they love me, they relly love me!
I give you credit for admitting that you did not know history, recorded by B. Clinton, D. Ross, M. Albright and many others that the Palestinians were offered a deal for statehood that was so good that most of the EU and many Arab and Muslim states begged them to accept. You get credit for admitting this. But you have some pretty strong, ugly and hateful views about Israel. You should know a lot more before forming and expressing such views. There is a reason that the King of Jordan and the King of Saudi Arabia wouldn’t come to the phone when Arafat called. Arafat responded to peace offers with suicide killers and other Arab states knew it and hated what it meant for Arabs and Muslims. Blaiming Jews for the sins of Palestinians makes no sense.
I wasnt sure at first, I know we are usually "in-sync"...I've moved on, ur getting a hard enough time here today. Hang on to your hat enjoy your day ALL.
kellypeter and hammagaadj brought up israel, for the record.peter never said a word about jews. "Egypt, Saudi Arabia and many other Arab and Muslim countries begged the Palestinians to accept" i DID not know that, thanks for the info BUT PAL is not required to take the advice of the other arab despots in the region
i can't debate with u people if your going to be nasty and personal (as well a lie and twist the truth)
truth it was a joke for the record, as i assume ur comments were, email is firstname.lastname@example.org
hjs: you never did- a fellow traveler of yours did. I was hoping you could find some type of argument to come back at me with. Alas, you still haven't or cannot. The reason I note those stats in particular is that they are kind of important. Except to lefties, apparently.Latly, I'll debate anyone, especially the snarky!
longstrtpicking a few stats out of a hat is not a succinct argument. i could pick stats to make my point. but there's no point to that. guess u are not here to debate, just want to shout louder than everyone else.when did i wish for your death?
Peter- Here's a new equation I just came up with:Doctrinaire Marxism + inability to argue facts = Snarkiness
HJS- back with his anti-Israel venom - no matter what the segment is about
can you offer any shred of factual evidence to your smear that "israel also seems to enjoy war without end."?
Cleary they have a problem with me addressing that "uppity" comment here, no surprise there so HJS maybe you can shoot me your email address.
The moderator is doing a good job deleting my comments.
President Obama is not doing a good job so far.
of course you know that Oslo was such a good offer that Egypt, Saudi Arabia and many other Arab and Muslim countries begged the Palestinians to accept. Of course you know that, but the company line says, "Palestinians should kill their own children by using them as human shields and people from the West should pretend that Palestinians have never been offered a viable state."
Hjs – Jews and Israelis are synonymous because people like you make them so by your denial of history.
hjs, your rewriting of history is a personal attack against Jews. Please stop hating Jews.
hjs is fueled by snark. The snark handbook says, and I quote, "Liberal thought should be presented briefly, in ten words or less, in a way that shows a total lack of disrespect for other points of view." The snark handbook goes on to say, “Never answer a question. Answering a question is a form of dialogue. Snark is about have a view and holding it without ever considering the other.”
peterjews and israel are not synonymsI don't hate anyone. please try to stick with fact not personal attacksnow to your question of course u know Oslo was not viable, no nation can exist as bantustans dependant on their neighbors good willas for the palestinians i don't know what they have offered if they offered anything. the people of palestine have had very poor leadership that fact does not justify ethnic cleansing. both sides are held hostage by extremists
President Obama is doing a good job so far.
President Obama is not doing a good job so far.
Oh wait, I should add some substance to that.
Most democrats (not in the House or Senate) are appalled by the port package, I mean stimulus package.
I think Americans should vote for Joe Lieberman. His slogan could be: “A vote for Lieberman is a vote against pork.” Word up.
hjs: Many do; more and more all the time. Many don't, though. Look at the choices the successful make, and you'll find your answers. BTW- I lay out my thoughts succinctly, whilst you always resort to questions and changing the subject. Maybe you can start giving some answers? I trust you can do better than merely hoping people like me die.
President Obama is doing a good job so far.
Israel has offered the Palestinians statehood numerous times, can you name a single time the Palestinians have offered a plan to Israel?
Of course, you will ignore the question and come back with snark. Israel haters never are able to answer this one, so they just go on hating Jews.
Frankly, I agree with you. I think Obama just happened to be in the right place at the right time. W. Bush (who I voted for the second time) was so bad, that the media and many people could just ignore Obama's sordid past. The first black president tolerated racism for 20 years. That should have signaled us, that should have been a red flag, but instead, my voice and others were shouted down. The mods at WNYC routinely deleted my posts on this topic. And now, the guy overseeing the IRS didn’t pay his own taxes. Poor Obama, he is held to such a low standard by the media that of course he allows himself to make such bad decisions.
I give Obama credit for apologizing about his nominees, but that doesn’t make up for the fact that Obama has already proven himself to be run of the mill. Civil Servants are no longer expected to pay their taxes is the message coming out of the White House. A sick state of affairs. At least now though democrats feel better about hiring illegal immigrants to clean their houses.
Will the mods cut this? They love their internet muscles here at WNYC.
longstreet yesterday when you posted the same selected facts I asked and got no answer from you. I'll ask again as you seem more talkative. why african americans are unable to break the cycle of poverty.
peterisrael also seems to enjoy war without end.
as for BHO, no one thought a 50 year war would end 30 days after the start of his term.
[[BL Moderator Writes: We haven't removed any comments yet, but please remember the WNYC posting policy, which asks you to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks.
Is there something in the water today? Everyone grumpy for some reason? It's an interesting conversation, but please, try to be more respectful of one another. It will make for more productive conversation, we promise.
HJS maybe you should speak when spoken to..hmmm?
Peter-I found it funny that Obama comes from the cess- pool of Chicago politics, has an angry wife who is only now proud of her country, has a racist pastor, yet is somehow seen as above the fray and untainted by any of it. Sounds like proof of the government-media complex, to me.a hammagaadji- And again, you can't refute the facts so you resort to childish nonsense. The future of the country you describe sounds great with folks like you leading the way. You are a true voice of tolerance, my friend.
It sounds like you feel genocide is a just form of revenge. It is because of views like yours that Obama has to step up and deal with Iran and people like you who support state sponsored genocide.
I am not sure what Mitchell has to do with domestic concerns. He should be able to make a splash in Israel while Obama splashes at home. Or perhaps Mitchell has no real power at all. Bottom line – Obama promises change, but doesn’t seem able to begin the process in a timely manner. Maybe he won’t begin it at all. Or perhaps Obama finally figured out what B. Clinton and W. Bush figured out, Palestinians have to want peace more then anyone else. Right now, they want war.
Whatever happened to the first hundred days? You people are unbelievable -- both pro and con. Institutional change is a lot harder to pull off than an inauguration. Let the man govern!
#21 Spot on
No Peter, I guess it's a semantic distinction because promoting genocide is different from the genocide that Europeans and Americans practiced in their conquest of the world peoples and theft of their resources.
Should Mitchel have acted on the day he was appointed? Or the next day? If you say three months from now, then isn't his nomination enough for now?
Longstreet, being smug in your falsehoods and hate for black people is not the answer. The rise of President Obama and the changing demographic in this country which will soon be minority white is something you can't stop and the source of the angst and fear and insecurities from people like yourself who will have to expire for this country to move on and be better.
I agree with you, however it makes me sad. I didn't vote for Obama, but now that he is president, I really wanted him to do well. But he has proven himself to be just another politician. When the head of the IRS is no longer expected to pay taxes, it is safe to say that Obama is not who most people think he is. The Obama that ran for president made himself out to be a guy who would never accept such crap. But the Obama who is president doesn’t have the guts to stand up for what is right.
For a year or more I reminded folks on this board that Obama prayed in a racist church for 20 years and that such tacit support of racism said something about Obama the man. Now Obama is nominating these run of the mill immoral politicians who can’t even pay their own taxes. Frankly, none of this should come as a surprise. Obama’s moral compass was always in question.
Will the WNYC moderators delete this post? We shall see. The WNYC mods don’t care much to be reminded that Obama prayed in a racist church for 20 years. By deleting posts, the WNYC mods convince themselves they must be correct.
the truththen maybe u should write to him directly in a less public forum!
My Opinion: Gwen was NOT a good moderator.
about three years agao the harvard biz review had a special issue "decision making"to paraphrase one great article.... to make a decision or plan "perfect" over making it timely... greatly diminishes it s effectivness or in fact makes it a failure. i think this is informing obama's behavior.
Peter: Good to know. The Obama champagne is still bubbling but will soon be flat.
the man is so much more powerful than the color of his skin. seriously, think about it. his demeanor is so much bigger.
It's interesting to listen to you both, journalists, talk on this subject without using spin. Have journalists reached a point where whatever you say is spin?! We need a REAL "ON THE MEDIA" that isn't produced BY THE MEDIA be it public radio or commercial radio. A civilian review board on the media.
If you don't recall the Israel conversation during the election, it is because you just weren't listening. Obama said numerous times that he would re-engage Israel and the Palestinians. Obama said the negotiations road would be tough, but it would have to be traveled. Obama has only been president a month, isn’t it a bit soon for you to be forgetting campaign promises?
Naming an envoy like Mitchell is not enough, at some point, Mitchell has to act. Otherwise, Obama will just continue on his role as being Bush #2.
Iran having a nuclear bomb doesn’t even things out. England does not promote a policy of genocide, Iran does.
I have been challenging Obama on these boards for well over a year. Just for the record. The Obama bubble has burst, most people just haven't heard the pop yet.
a. hammagaadji: I stated facts. Ad hominem attacks, like yours, are the best that can be done to refute them. At least the other posters here choose to remain silent rather than descend into the gutter and accuse me of racism. It's obvious that my posts can't be refuted, pal.
Longstreet, Holder called for honest talk not recycling and regurgitating racist hate. If you are a con and not a "NY lib", why aren't you listening to your leader limbow? In an case, I disagree with Holder when he says that we are more segregated on the weekends. Did it occur to him that I make that choice as white people also do and that there is nothing wrong with that?
yes HJS we can.....be sunny about that. But I was talking to BL
truththe amerikan people have committed to change AT LOOK LAST. can webe sunny about that?
Tell me exactly what is there to be "sunny" about BL?
Just to follow up with my comment about renters, I sometimes get the feeling from all Pres. Obama's rhetoric about Wall Street greed and his constant statements about income in excess of $250,000 making one "rich" (which is of course not the case in NYC) that he is mostly playing to other parts of the country and is not friendly at all to NYC. Could it be because New York supported Hilary in the primary? Am I just paranoid?
a hammagaadji: Well, then, maybe Obama can invite his illegal alien aunt to live with them to even things out? She gets to defy the law year after year so why not let her live in style, too?As Peter is beginning realize, the rules don't apply to our "elites" or the politically connected. Perhaps the buyer's remorse with the shooting star known as Obama will set in earlier than I thought.In any event, Leona Helmsley was right.
Sort of off topic here, but I would like to know from Ms. Ifill and Mr. Alter why the media (and Washington) are not talking about renters. Many renters are facing increasing rents, job losses, reduced incomes, possible eviction, etc. All I ever hear about in the media, though, are the plight of homeowners.
Is there a media bias against reporting about renters? I feel like a second class citizen!
Peter:I don't recall him saying much about Israel at all in the campaign. It seemed to be too risky a subject for everyone.
longstreet:I appreciate you pointing out all the problems that are not going away. I think too many people are in the "Yes We Did" head and think their work is done now.
Does Gwen's book look into the causes of these abhorrent facts? That blacks are 7 times more likely to be incarcerated than whites;that nearly half of city blacks don't graduate from high school;that 65% of blacks are born out of wedlock; that black women are having 35% of all abortions annually? When we fast-forward to the end of Obama's presidency in 8 years and these stats haven't changed, I guess we'll be told that we have to spend even more money, as if that hasn't been the plan for the past 40 years.Just trying to follow Eric Holder's advice and bring up some racial issues that the good libs in the WNYC audience couldn't care less about.
1] Who said President Obama "invited" his mother-in-law? It could be that his WIFE asked her MOTHER.
2] He screwed up and said so. On global teevee.
3] Since London has nuclear weapons that can reach Teheran, it evens things out and cancels any idea of war.
4] That's a lie. The Secretary of State has employed an envoy; George Mitchell, who is being hands on with the problem this very minute. That's a great change.
A few thoughts.
1. I love that President Obama invited his mother in-law to live with the first family at the White House. That is a great role model for the US. My mother, a huge Obama supporter, assumed that the grandmother would watch the children giving the First Lady cover for having a political role and agenda. Is this really the case? Am I naïve to think that the Obama’s just wanted to take care of an elderly relative?
2. What was Obama thinking? How do you nominate person after person to serve without even checking to see if they paid taxes? Avoiding your own taxes and telling others to pay up was supposed to be old policy, not Obama policy. What happened?
3. Recession, recession, recession…but what happens six months from now when Iran wakes up with a nuclear bomb that can hit London? Where is the Obama foreign policy juggernaut we were promised?
4. Obama was very critical of the Bush administration for being hands off in Israel. But nothing has changed with President Obama…lots of rhetoric but the same policies. I actually support hands off when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians, but I thought Obama wanted something different? What happened?
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