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In 1972, I was in the 7th grade in a small town in Kansas. One day in English, the class started talking about how Chris wanted to try out for basketball. Everyone knew she was one of the best athletes in the school and really good at shooting baskets, but there was only a boys basket ball team. Girls weren't allowed to play on the team. As we talked, we hatched a protest. Soon our teacher (Miss D) was leading Chris and all of the girls from the class down the hall to the principal’s office. We surged into the office and laid out our request to let Chris try out for the team. We said that it was only fair.
Mr. R, our principal, nodded, smiled and then replied, “Chris may try out for the team if she is willing to use the same shower room with the rest of the team and at the same time.”
Chris didn't try out for the team, and the next year Miss D no longer taught at the school. Women who vote for Palin because she is a woman just want to get into the game. After 232 years, it is time.
I read in a NYT article that 60% of the members of the democratic party are women. And it takes a Republican to put a woman on the ticket in this century. Go figure.
Ramatu,It just occurred to me after my yoga class that if we had picked Hilary as the vp candidate, or if she had the Dem nomination, there would still be a movement of white women to Palin. It is quite possible that those particular white women (not white women in general) relate to Palin better than to HRC. To them, HRC is a career politician; Palin is a woman who stumbled into political success while being a "hockey mom." Much more "relatable." And clearly, they're voting on personality, not issues. Sigh.Well, after yoga, it's time to liquor up. (Just kidding, but I am signing off.) Hope you had a good day off.
this may all be over but i like the idea of answering when i'm spoken to, so....
@truth.. yes i'm a woman and i'll take handsome too.
@mc... thanks for the encouragement. and i don't think i am caught in the talking points. i believe that obama's analysis (or his approach to the world) will be beneficial to the country. i am a late comer to the obama bandwagon and did not become convinced until after the philadelphia speech. i remember thinking that anyone that is willing to challenge the american public to own up to race is someone i have to give a chance.
mc,On your assessment of Obama using "strong arm" tactics in his state senate race. Would you like to explain what you mean, and what your reference/source is?
Kelly & Ramatu,I'm afraid that our getting caught in the campaigns' talking points is what gets us into trouble. Yes, if you look at the Obama record it does not hold up to the idea of "change" or "new politics." He used the same old strong arm tactics as anyone else to get into his State Senate seat. Also if you look at the McCain record of "maverick," you find that he only was when it suited him. Experience also, I think is a red herring. So I try to look at the actual legislative records (as long or short as they may be), listen to what they want to do and - important - how they plan to do it and pay for it (both weak here), and decide on that basis.
Ramatu #133,Keep fighting the good fight.
truth #136,Fair enough.
Handsome usually indicates some strong features in females.
LOLLLL sorry that was my was of asking w/o asking, I am female also,formerlyl of Bklyn....*aaawwwkward* LOL
Yes Ramatu...but I fear all Obama's talk of change and new politics is as empty as his campaign trail promises.
Obama's record of bucking his party and reaching across the aisle simply doesn't exist - so his promises of change etc.. I really *can't* believe in.
@truth... not at all offended. ticked, actually.
handsome has an interesting connotation for women, no?
Ramatu - cute was for the comment, no offense intended...Handsome?
Ok MC then we agree to disagree.
we see what "experience" has gotten us thus far...
i will admit that experience is not Obama's strongest point. however, he advocates policies that are in my best interest and those in my community. his environmental, foreign, economic, and social policies make better sense to me than anything mccain offers. and, he has the temperament and judgment, that if nothing else, is the antithesis of the current administration. and i still believe that these are dire times and that the world needs a leader with a vision beyond whats in front of his nose. we aren't going to get out of the trouble we are in without a vision of something better, something different. the same old rubbish isn't working.
As your doctor starts to perform open heart surgery, he tells you he has been doing this for 143 days.
As your plane pulls away from the terminal, the pilot comes on the public address system and announces he has been flying 747s for 143 days.
Would you hire a lawyer to defend you 143 days out of law school?
Interesting when it's put into perspective, isn't it? Just think how great a professional of any kind you could be with only 143 days of experience!
People want change so badly . . . . Maybe we should lower the experience requirement for doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, etc. That would cause some change!
Obama's 143 Days of Senate Experience - Just how much Senate experience does Barack Obama have in terms of actual work days? Not much. From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United States Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory Committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the Senate. That's how many days the Senate was actually in session and working.
The one single Senate committee that he headed never even met once. After 143 days of work experience, Obama believed he was ready to be Commander In Chief, Leader of the Free World.
I don't think so.
Our children spend more time in pre-school getting ready for kindergarten.
lets just say people tend to know not to let me hear those adjectives but i do catch the occasional mumblings under the breath. so, no, its not that often. but i do try on a regular basis to challenge folks on race and gender so i get what i get.
truth #131,I guess that is a chance I'll have to take. I do not fear infinity.
Yep MC that is what I am saying b/c you can go into infinity w/speculation. I guess I feel that way b/c I am a realist.
Ramatu,Don't want to speculate on what you find yourself called most days. Do you find that you pick up unpleasant adjectives when you oppose the views of those around you or does it just happen randomly?
truth #127,Having trouble understanding your syntax. Why is speculation dangerous? Or are you saying that?
@ the truth...
although cute isn't my favorite descriptor, if its the worst thing i'm called all day then its been a damn good day.
#114 MC - that is my point, but if I am reading your posts correctly, you are the Black voter will not even jump parties but, that they won't vote at all?? You why speculation is dangerous? You gotta see.
Cute Ramatu..lol the non-everyone can go to the previous episodes of the BL show...warning..there are a lot of posts...but heck it's your day off!!! Have fun! LOL
eva,Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I would hope that women and all voters would vote on the issues and not on hurt feelings, however, bitter experience teaches me the opposite for most voters. This could be evidence that democracy is a flawed system. A friend of mine once said that he would rather live in a dictatorship controled by the Dalai Lama than a democracy under GWB. Food for thought.
I understand your wanting to hold women to a higher standard when they evaluate a candidate. Maybe they will yet.
truth #118,Glad you're not mad. I did not mean to insinuate that blacks would jump to the Repub side, only that if this alternative reality had happened the Dems would be in a similar pickle. I think that if this had happened, black voters would possibly not turn out at all in Nov, which is what I am worried might happen with women. This is too likely to throw it to McCain. I have not real opinion on this because I cannot know what people are thinking, it is just speculation.
just reread your response... "everyone knows"? where does the non-everyone go for a quick primer?
RE: the ABC/WaPo polling data: the Palin EffectSource:http://abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1070a1AftertheConventions.pdfUnless I am reading this incorrectly, the "white women" shift cited is among those women already identified as McCain supporters:
"Moreover, 46 percent of McCain’s supporters now are “very” enthusiastic about hiscandidacy, a striking improvement from 28 percent late last month, with women showingthe most movement. Among white women who support McCain, 51 percent now say they’re very enthusiastic about his campaign, up from 30 percent in late August. Highlevelenthusiasm rose by a more sedate 10 points among men, to 39 percent."
The total shift in women shows that a 1% drop in Obama support becomes a 3% gain for McCain, so do the numbers suggest that the Obama-McCain split of women voters is 3:1 Obama?
Also notable is that this poll was taken in closer time-frame to the GOP convention than to the Dem convention.
I obviously misunderstood comment #107... my inexperience on this board (its my day off treat) is apparent. I apologize for the confusion.
mc,I respectfully disagree. Women either vote on the issues like women's rights, the environment, sane foreign policy, sane fiscal policy, or they vote on wounded feelings. The first makes us look good. The second makes us look like idiots. If any jerk wanted "evidence" that women don't deserve the vote... he could just look to these women.
Thank you for the info Puck from Brooklyn. I attended a John Kerry fundraiser at the Chicago Civic Opera House in 2003 just to hear Bill Clinton speak. I was at a liberal Chicago university and witnessed the Obama Senate race media frenzy first hand in Chicago. I think since moving to Ohio, I have found that myself becoming brainwashed by the gun-toting, homophobic, country music-loving neighbors of mine. I will always be socially liberal. Creationism is the final straw.
MC...I am not "mad" about anything, this is a forum for discussion which I am mature enough to particpate in without taking anything personal.
I think your speculation is invalid b/c it is not the reality period. To insinuate that Black Americans would jump parties to self identify is absurd. My opinion.
After reading the comment of J from Brooklyn and thinking about this segment, I agree with J. It is time to discuss her politicsand her understanding or lack thereof of the world today. She lives in a different world than I do. To me she is a "man in women's clothing" since she does not support any real issues for women such as:1.equal pay2.freedom to make choices3.equal rights4.etc, etc,
Eva you are spot on! They now have bobble head dolls of her that are not, well let's say "professionally dressed".
sexy, babe, looker all those weird comments..where's the substance?
Please, Brian, the next time one of your guests or call-in commenters says, as one said just today,"I just don't know enough about Obama," would you please ask something to the effect of, "Whose fault is that?" There are many detailed policy statements on his Web site, www.barackobama.com, for starters. Thank you.
eva,I think it goes deeper than just ego. If the Dems want to think of themselves as the good guys then they should call sexism, racism and any other bigotry when they see it. Instead they gave it a pass because it came from people like Ed Schultz.
truth, Not sure if you are mad about my J.C. Watts reference. What I was trying to say is that if the shoe had been on the other foot in the primaries I have no confidence that the Dems would have handled the race issue any better, and McCain would have cynically taken advantage of that.
Ramatu,I think it is fine to talk both. Particularly if you have both to deal with.
RAMATU: What part of my comment said that it was NOT ok to talk about race??
I think everyone on this board KNOWS that I dominate and welcome a conversation on race.
We can talk about black feminists and white feminists if you want.
I am NOT feminist period so I tend not to speak out on subjects that I am not familiar.
Truth,I do agree with you that lipstick is more an issue here than gender or race. Palin is a phenom because, as Rush insists, she's a "babe." The fact that she's wrong on every issue that matters to women's rights is irrelevant to women who want to vote for a beauty queen.I admit I don't get it. It's the ultimate stockholm syndrome effect.
JC:I left for a couple minutes and you all swung this to a racial slant?? JC @92 seems like you got the ball rolling. Truth is...it did NOT go the other way, mccain picked a woman, white and race is not the issue..lipstick is!
Truth,I didn't write #92, I wrote #93. That whole JC Watts thing came from mc.
@the truth from ATL...
why is it okay to take gender and feminism and not to talk race? again, as a black feminist its not possible to separate the two.
Nelson #81,Mayabe some people are questioning Feminism 101 as the definition that works. Palin surely seems to have found her own way. Not saying I agree with her policies, quite the opposite, but I think people are tired of knee-jerk definitions.
I left for a couple minutes and you all swung this to a racial slant?? Eva @92 seems like you got the ball rolling. Truth is...it did NOT go the other way, mccain picked a woman, white and race is not the issue..lipstick is!
I have observed one overriding theme in the support of Palin. That is a desire to return to a more simplistic era. I think she identifies with this in 2 major ways:1. She is Wild West Annie who lives in the west as it existed years ago (gun-toting aggressiveness).Alaska represents it.2.She believes in simplistic, religious mythological answers to all problems. She has no interest in logical, scientic answers; they are too complex. This to me is part and parcel of the Christian Crusade taking place in this country which is the most frightening part of US history starting with President Reagan.
how can hillary have been betrayed by the media and the party? she wasn't owed anything, this isn't an aristocracy...but its true that the party is divided, and the choice of palin was pretty smart. its unfortunate but if mccain wins, i'm sure america will get all that it deserves. and i hope its devastating! we're getting what we deserve for electing bush... twice...
@Gabriel: nice, very polite
so this is the "big tent" that the Democrats have created?
post-Clinton, extreme left nutjobs have pushed all reasonable moderates out of the party
...it will cost us democrats this election too.
mc,I see your point, and I am SERIOUSLY (I'm serious) all for the DNC doing whatever it has to do to cater to these women who have been offended. I personally don't get why they've been offended, but what's the Shakespeare quote, no fury like a woman scorned or spurned, or something like that.If you want these guys to clean the toilet with a toothbrush, I will also endorse that. I know you think I'm being sarcastic, but whatever it takes, I want them to do it. But what I will not endorse is the failure to ALSO tell these women something along the lines of "look, you gotta grow up. There are issues at stake that are bigger than your ego."
I don't think that Palin as a woman would win for McCain and the Repubs if America had elected a woman to head (or vice head) the executive branch before.
Just as I expect a huge number of moderate black voters to vote for Obama to be the first black president, I fully expect a huge number of moderate women to vote for McCain because that would give us our first female VP. Too bad for America that there are more of those female moderates than black moderates.
I'm sorry, America Wins, but I reread my comments and saw nothing about white women and their rights...
America Wins with Palin from NYorkistan you idiot. I didn't say you don't have the right to post your ridiculous opinion. I asked you to leave the state and go somewhere that lines up with your world view. There is no hypocrisy coming from me.
i'm also with this current caller. Hillary Clinton has gone to bat for Obama... to suggest that she wants McCain to win so she can win again is just more of the same woman-hating crap... this Thomas Frank guy may be "left" of the Democrats, but he's also finding it way too easy to invent arguments that are pure fantasy.
and that makes me think that he wants to further divide the Democratic party. at least, that's what his words are doing.
THANK YOU for making that point! Ever since Obama clinched the nomination, I have listened to women (and men) whine and complain about the 'demonization' of Clinton, seen them suddenly shift from a progressive stance to a conservative one over the gender issues, now bolstered by the Palin choice. But at every step, if you flipped the script, if Clinton won the nomination and Obama was left behind, and all this was cast in racial terms, I wonder what the reaction would be.
@93 eva: if that is not sexist and offensive, I don't know what is
the racism, sexism, classism and every other "ism" on this page is shocking!
...maybe that is why people are flocking to Palin?
#94 - It's people like you who are going to destroy this country.
Racial Preferences right.
What about Bill Clinton? Does he disprove the guest's thesis?
And if Obama went to his private school on scholarship, does that undermine some of his argument?
Gabriel: It's called the 2nd Amendment RKBA ...read about it; start with the briefs in the recent Heller vs. DC case
Michael W: both Barack and Michelle are the products of RACIAL PREFERENCES
Ramatu: "white women" have rights (and votes) too!
the hypocrisy is incredible on this page
Ramatu,You are so right. It is a white lady tantrum (and trust me, given my rants, I should know from tantrums). But there is a difference between a rant, and voting against all of your interests because of gender.
This is terrifying, not only because it may lose the election for the Dems, but because of what it says about a percentage of American women. Scary. Scary. Scary.
eva, Here is another thought. If the outcome of the primaries had gone the other way and there had been the same kind of treatment of Obama, I think that McCain would have picked J.C. Watts or Colin Powell or someone like that and we would be in much the same predicament. And I would still feel like quitting the party.
that kind of comment's just not productive... it's insulting and it's snarky misogynist crap like that which is encouraging women to vote for someone who's against their interests - because there are leftist men who are willing to attack women because they're female...
it's too bad that the left can't be more progressive in terms of treating women like they're actually human, regardless of their policy points.
eva,Here is the problem for the Dems with respect to some of these women. The last caller exhibited it somewhat, although she was not all that articulate. Many people feel that Hillary was treated very badly by many in the media both on the right and the left and that the leadership in the Dem party gave it a pass. Not to say that they should try to shut anyone up, but that they could have said something about how ugly it was and that it does not represent the views of the party. Someone like Tom Daschle was well placed to make a statement like that; well known Obama supporter, not holding office right now. Instead we got an anemic statement from Howard Dean after it was all over and it was left to Michelle Obama to articulate very eloquently how hurtful it was, not to HRC but to many of us who supported her. I now question that the Dems automatically have my interests at heart - it is no longer a given. I support Obama on workers' rights issues and the Supreme Court.
The McCain camp has played this brilliantly. A populist working mom who looks like a hero to a disgruntled woman but at the same time embraces policies that are right down the hard right Repub party line. Now the Dems are tied up in knots. If they had handled the end of the primaries better - not changing the outcome, just acknowledging the ugliness - they might not be in this predicament. Unknowable, of course, but that is what I suspect.
I urge Americans to watch, or read, if you have not already done so"Michael T. Klare "Blood and Oil'America's Foreign Policy of Oil dependency must continue,since its beginning 60 years ago. That means the Fear tactics will soon be appearing,and Americans will Vote for McCaine..it's not about feminism. "It's about the Oil-Stupid"
I am a black American feminist woman and am infuriated by this placating to white women. I get that its a practical thing, the Obama/Biden campaign needs their votes. I get it. But it doesn't make it any less infuriating. Its like one big tantrum with the entire world running to them with a kleenex. I watched Michelle Obama, a brilliant woman, have to spend her speech reminding the world that she is a human being (reminds me of Sojourner Truth asking, "Ain't I a Woman?"), an American and woman (wow, she can have children!). No one ran to her aid, no one defended her. Instead, she got kudos for playing her position (which I agree that she had to do).
Anyone who is going to vote for McCain / Palin needs to have their head checked.
Palin is barely educated. How many lousy colleges did she go to before she graduated????
How can you compare the education credentials of McCain/Palin to that of an Ivy League educated Lawyer / Senator?
Yes Bush was Ivy League educated however he never would have been admitted into Yale had it not been for his father. Bush would not have been president if it wasn't for his father.
Obama has earned everything he has.
Palin has nothing and will bring nothing to the table.
How can anyone in their right mind vote for this idiot????!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t even try to compare Palin’s lack of education to Lincoln who was a self taught practicing lawyer.
I promise you it is not all about "deeds" words count plenty!
America Wins with Palin from NYorkistan please leave NY. You're a feaking looney. Guns. Are you serious? Alaska's got plenty of room for you, go. Please go.
dana,"I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative"
Palin is socially conservative and fiscally liberal. Check out these numbers:
Palin is a creationist... She cut funding for schools and programs for poor and working mothers... yet she still saddled the town of which she was a mayor with $20M of debt. She supported two bridges to nowhere.
This woman is definitely not fiscally conservative, but she is staunchly conservative on social issues.
Please, the information is out there, so check out what this woman's policy history is.
More than the fact that she's a woman, I fear that the tipping point becomes the fundamentalist views of Palin, and her acceptance speech reminder of Obama's highly accurate assessment of small town folk clinging to bibles and guns. What percentage of white women claim to be Christian? I bet it goes even higher when you add children. I believe the reluctance of my progressive candidates to take the bullet and begin the inevitable discourse to wean intelligent and aware voters off religion and towards secular humanism only delays a painful but necessary paradigm shift for the good of the nation and the world.
Mc Are you serious?...women's studies 101. Feminism is about women's choice and freedom to decide for THEMSELVES, not for another woman, speaking for old white men, to tell THEM what is right for them and their bodies.
I completely understand the appeal of Palin. She's well educated(5 different colleges to get a bachelors degree-and what fine colleges they were). She puts America first as evidenced by her lack of passport stamps. She addresses the foreign policy shortcomings of recent administrations. Think of how much better off the country would be if we had better rapport with the moose hunting nations of the middle east. She's a feminist-women can do whatever they want with their bodies as long as it's what she believes god would want. What's not to like? I think it's shameful that the press would want to ask her questions. They only want to know her opinions to complex issues because they think she's stupid and inexperienced. As a stupid, inexperienced, hard working American myself I'm going to vote against my economic and foreign policy interests so that I can feel better about myself. Electoral politics aren't about exercising democracy to make a better America. It's about addressing the insular xenophobic paranoia of insecure uneducated god fearing types. Until you elitist, cappuccino sipping, New Yorker reading, educated types realize that, you don't stand a chance. If you really wanted to make America a better place, you wouldn't vote for the most intelligent qualified candidate, you'd get a bowling ball and a camouflage John Deere hat and cut your own lawn.
So Dana from Columbus, if you're socially liberal and fiscally conservative, which pair of candidates is likely to put in place programs and policies most aligned with your own stances? That's the only question you should be asking. And don't just answer that, for example, Republicans are more fiscally so McCain must be best on that. A careful look at the handling of the economy by Bush vs. Clinton is revealing. DO NOT VOTE EMOTIONS.
With the important exception of someone who genuinely believes that John McCain's policy positions are superior to Obama's- Any former Clinton supporter who is now going to vote for McCain because Sarah Palin is on the ticket is a complete idiot. If enough of the voting public willfully chooses to believe those who have repeatedly proven themselves to be bald faced liars, then they deserve what they get. It's just too bad they will drag the rest of the nation down with them.
You know what these women who used to support Hilary but are now voting for Palin/McCain remind me of?The whole absurdity of the 1990's political correctness. The whole, as the title of the show suggests, "identity politics" bit. I used to care whether white people called Asians as Asians or as Orientals. But at a certain point, I realized that John McCain, who continues to use the word "gook", had actually done more for Asians (by opening up trade relations with Vietnam - and that after he'd been tortured) than most of my pc friends who would NEVER use the word "Oriental".In short, it was deeds, not words. So while I'm voting for Obama based on isseus (and yes, deeds) I don't have antipathy toward McCain because it's about what you do, not your identity politics. Sigh. I just have to say I'm disgusted by women who vote XX instead of issues/deeds. It's the biggest argument against feminism ever.
If women are so taken with Palin, what do they thiknks about her husband Todd's unofficial role in her Executive Office? He has been copied on Executive e-mails and frequently sits in on official meetings. Why?
This whole converstion is silly. If HRC had won the nomination and McCain picked Michael Steele as his Vp pick and blacks decided to back the republicans they would be call all kind of names.
Clearly women are responding with their hormones. Sarah Palin is against abortion rights, preaches abstinence as opposed to birth control, went as far as to try to censor books in a public lbrary. Does this represent the best interests of women? I don't think so. But this shift by so many women indicates that they can not be trusted to vote rationally and will vote against their own best interests.
One of the things I haven't heard is that all the hubbub about Sarah Palin stems from one speech. One. She has said absolutely nothing new since. So everyone who has suddenly shifted their votes due to one speech, one scripted moment in time should feel a little shame. Get to know the person who you are voting for. Especially you ladies who jump into relationships at the drop of hat because of some smooth talker only to find yourselves barefoot and pregnant and abandoned. Look all I'm asking is that you listen, understand and think before you leap.
What can be said to convince these people that Republican policies only benefit corporations and the extremely rich. This is not hard to understand if people would just take a look around. Bigger government, inflation, failure of infrastructure, it goes on and on. This makes me sick. You can't legislate morals so stop voting on them. The Dem's aren't perfect but they care more about the average American than the Republicans ever will.
@ Layla #48 - that is why women are not taken seriously, at least state one issue you agree with her on to show that you are using your brain when you make such comments.
This is why we CANNOT be trusted to run the country, always acting on "emotion" and NOT "logic"!
Sarah Palin is simply yet another grand master move by Karl Rove, and as usual, the media falls for it, including you, Brian! Instead of talking about Sarah Palin's POLITICS (which are horrifying), you are talking about her as a women, a mother, a feminist. Karl Rove is the master of identity politics. Bring it back to the issues PLEASE.
It seems to me that there is a sense of suprise and obsession with Sarah Palin because she is a powerful and new female face. She is not Hilary she has her own opinions and is an individual. It's as if it's an anomoly that there are powerful women other than Hilary Clinton in the country. The fact of the matter is that she is a tow the line republican and I hope that once people get over their amazement of a woman in power that they will look at her policies and vote in an intellegent and informed way.
We are talking about the future of our country -- which affects women and men -- and are we to believe that the best women can do is respond to this as if it were a new product that was being branded? How is it possible for people to be so easily duped? What do they really know about Palin? Why are Americans so ready to fall for this shallow level of discourse? This is NOT "American Idol". Palin is against choice, against the environment -- are these not issues that women care about? Please people (and this includes you, the journalists, and all women): takes some responsibility for your choices, think the issues through. This is the future of the country at stake, not what television show to watch tonight.
Palin - a fighter for what?
The "Palin bounce" illustrates what a bunch of un-educated fools the American electorate is. There has been a 20% bouce based on her nomination and all signs seem to point to the fact that she is a woman is the reason for the bounce...
Layla, you do understand that Palin will be the VICE president, not the top spot, don't you?
How is Palin a fighter?
Palin seems like quite the tough cookie, as comment number one said, but watch... as soon as someone really hits her with a hard question, she will collapse and claim that all the mean boys are ganging up on her. Just like Clinton did way back when she said that all the other candidates were ganging up on her (because she is a woman of course, not because she was the front-runner).
As a result, I suspect moderate feminists will flock to her. I think McCain's choice of Palin was brilliant strategy-wise... but as for the country... god help us.
This caller, Deanna, talking about her conservative background and how much Obama's speeches appealed to her emotionally makes it easy to understand this phenomenon. When people vote for "change" without examining what that means. Someone like her is going to be triggered by appearances. This is the riddle we find ourselves grappling with.
I am a 25 year-old white woman in the midwest who has been very supportive of the emotionality of Obama's message. I'm still undecided because Palin has brought a "muscular feminism" to the election. While Obama sings change, she barks it. I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative and have problems with both camps. I want change, but who has the clout? Who can change policy?
Mr. Frank's expectation that someone will vote for a Democrat because he's got better "programs" is like expecting someone to buy a car because it has more cup holders.
The promises aren't that big to begin with -- a tax credit for a few thousand dollars won't change the structure of someone's life. And they're heavily discounted as unlikely to happen, and if they happen they might be taken away. They just aren't that big a deal.
Grrr. White woman with kids here.
If McCain picked a highly educated, accomplished running mate, CEO/corporate lawyer type, the red state women wouldn't have reacted as strongly. They like Palin because they feel she is not "above" them. Women don't mind feeling that their male leaders are superior to them, but they are not going to stand for it in their women leaders. It is reverse sexism and it is working to Palin's advantage.
Palin represents the truly elitist, racist attitudes of the republican/religious right. Have her speak to creating an educational system and daycare system in this country that helps ALL women - not just rich, white women raise their teenage chilren's children and their disabled children while holing down a job!!! Come to Harlem, NYC or El Barrio,NYC and tell me who Palin represents???Naybe if all the religious right evangelical churchs had a "let's adopt a child of color drive" so many of these kids would not be languishing in the system! They are not as cute as little chinese girls are they though?!!!
Has there ever been a conservative candidate that didn't win on the reptile brain?
having fight...toughness...guns...no helmets...no negotiating with terrorists...mavericks...bold...stay the course...steadfast...
seems like the Repubs own this talk, no matter how much of a hash they make of the country.
No, "small town" is a fantasy world that Americans can identify with and yearn for. It's an idealistic view that looks a lot like Norman Rockwell pictures and like Norman Rockwell pictures, exists only in the imagination.
This would be a great chance for Brian to explain a little bit about how to read polls.
The so-called margin of error on polls really means that there is a 95% chance that real answer is within that margin of error. Or, that there is a 5% that it does not.
Take enough polls, and some of them (i.e. 5%) will fall outside the margin of error. And the more you take, the worse some of them will be. (An analogy: The more people you randomly, the more likely it will be that some of them really really tall.)
Moreover, the margin of error of subpopulations is a lot greater than that of the whole poll. So, while the margin of error for the whole poll might be 3.5%, the margin of error for women might be 5%.
And last, when you compare polls, you need to add the margins of error.
So, the margin of error on this 20-point swing might be HUGE, and latest poll could be one of the outliers/crazy results. Keep in mind that only one poll has shown this result.
The first question that this poll really raises is: Is this the kind of swing that we should question?
I think the Repubs are getting away with labeling Obama elitist based on 1) the decades long campaign to paint Dems as liberal elitists and 2) the physical stance Obama often takes of holding his head slightly back, chin raised, and actually looking down his nose at someone he's with.
It's captured in many of the photos used for his campaign literature as well.
I remember being amazed that he did this when a former primary opponent came out for Obama and was giving his endorsement speech. Obama held his head in such a way that he literally was looking down his nose at the man (Richardson, iirc). I felt extremely uncomfortable; it looked as if Obama held the man in disdain, as well as being bored by him.
Now, the phrase, "looking down his nose," is a familiary one, used to denote someone who feels he or she is superior to the person beging "looked down on" in that way.
I think it is unfortunate that no one in the Obama camp has been able to get the candidate to adjust that particular body position. It's a stance which fits all too unfortunately into the Repub stereotype of Big Dems as elitists.
What good is having a female vice president if women still won't have equal pay. This is silly.
I'm sorry that these so called "red state feminists (and presumably men as well)" feel looked down upon by the popular culture, that is their right. However, why is it their exclusive right? How many times does the term "latte liberal" fly around? Apparently, only small, rural areas represent America, while the majority of Americans who live in cities represent some kind of alien influence or worse. Americans are a diverse crowd, and our elected officials are supposed to represent all of us...
I grew up in Texas in a very conservative church, which I'm still close to. It's not an economic issue, but people feel left out, blame it on culture wars, feel disrespected and angry. A close friend, white working class woman who supports Obama, was nonetheless THRILLED by Sarah Palin. She won't change her vote, though others will, because she thinks about the issues. But she identifies strongly with Palin as admirable, tough, hard-working, spirited, and intelligent.
And now it looks like, under Palin, Wasilla charged victims for their own rape kits! Mavericky! http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2008/9/9/221240/2117/Diary/Charging-Rape-Victims-Sarah-Palin
I have to admit, I'm stumped by any women who are voting for Palin, but used to support Obama.It is the ultimate sexism to vote for someone just because they are XX and not XY.In this case, it is also the ultimate act of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. I'm embarrassed by these women. It is deeply overpersonalizing the election, and I have to say, I always thought women were smarter. I mean, for me that's the bottom line. I expect men to get all riled up over Limbaugh and vote red. Women I always thought more of...and mc, with all due respect, and I do respect you, but the idea that the Dems somehow brought this on themselves is, I think, absurd. I mean, maybe you're right, but that just insults women more than any real or imagined slights against Hilary.
I've flipped from Hillary to Palin - I want a woman in a top spot, period.
I, for one, don't want someone "like me". I want someone smarter, stronger, and more cool-headed---that doesn't make them "better than me", just "better at being President than me".
I'd like to see a woman in the White House or the Naval Observatory, but not a self-righteous authoritarian who seems not to understand where legitimate use of authority ends and misuse of power begins.
Incidentally:Camille Paglia insults men by claiming that we are controlled by our erections, and that women just have to "deal with it". That's incredibly demeaning, and unpleasantly proscriptive given that _she_ doesn't go out with men....
I think, the crux of the matter is that most American voters are lazy. They don't want to try to figure out the real issues and their potential solutions. So they go with shite like "character" and "trust." They're too lazy/stupid to ask themselves, for example, "what's the deal with the budget deficit? Should I worry about it? If so, what's the best way to address it? and which candidate will do that the best?"
"The gun-toting Sarah Palin is like Annie Oakley, a brash ambassador from America's pioneer past. She immediately reminded me of the frontier women of the Western states, which first granted women the right to vote after the Civil War -- long before the federal amendment guaranteeing universal woman suffrage was passed in 1919. Frontier women faced the same harsh challenges and had to tackle the same chores as men did -- which is why men could regard them as equals, unlike the genteel, corseted ladies of the Eastern seaboard, which fought granting women the vote right to the bitter end." - Paglia
I am an educated, professional white woman, and mother. I was originally supportive of Obama. When Sarah Palin was placed on the ticket I had to rethink my allegiances. Now I am leaning toward voting for McCain because of Palin (though I haven't reconciled all the issues, yet.) I don't think women in my position are admitting to this shift.
I am amused by the guests' use of the verb "diss".
This is a terrifying conversation because it seems that the Conservatives never allow facts to confuse their opinions.
There still is no mention of RACE! They are not acknowledging the fact they are supporting a woman over a BLACK MALE LEADER!
A very sad state of affairs.
Why does small town America dominate our political discussion? Why are these people more authentically American than urban dwellers. Why are their opinions more important than any other American's. Is small town some sort of catch word for suburban?
How could any woman vote for McCain only because he may die and therefore there will be a woman president? Palin is so frighteningly conservative that it will be an extremely dark day for women, mothers, children, and all Americans, should Sarah Palin or anyone like her become president. Please just think this through women!
I am a white woman, who grew up in the country, and I would rather slam my hand in a car door than vote in McCain/Palin. I work full-time and barely make rent. I have health insurance and can't afford to see a doctor. I decided not to continue schooling this semester in part because of money. How can people think that voting in this crew, after the last 8 years, will improve their lives in ANY way? This is not about gender. This is about sensibility.
Oh, wait, I forgot, SP is "folksy" and Barack Obama is "intelligent", and that's just too intimidating in a world leader. My mistake.
I will probably switch because my Democrat teenaged son became angered at the way Hillary was treated by our party. He kept pointing out things that would never have happened to a man and I began to watch and realize he was right.
Who is dissing Middle America? Please. The political machine, especially the republicans, has been pandering to them for years!
Rose #22As someone who breastfed on breaks, walked around the conference table when I had my son in a snugli during board meetings and who white-knuckled through traffic to make the deadline for picking up my four-year-old after work, good point! What would she do indeed!
Most voter opinions aren't rooted in deep analysis and information in the first place. Obama was popular because people were disgusted with Republican incompetence and self-dealing, not because they thought he would do much for them. The switchers do like Palin a lot, but the key effect is to look closely at McCain and discover he isn't George Bush.
Well there you go! Listen at the logic of that callers' mother - vote for mccain b/c he is gonna die soon and we will have a woman president!
Ha ha!!! Americans get the government they deserve. Truer words are seldom spoken.
Condescension? Why, I wonder? Could it be that a red state feminist is, in my view, a fake feminist who would like me to hand over the keys to my own body? Could it because a woman who would vote a president in on the sole virtue of her gender does not seem like an intelligent woman, any more than a feminist?
To me, a red state feminist is an Uncle Tom feminist.
I may be wrong, I may be right, but this is where my disdain for red state feminism comes from:
I have no time for a woman who thinks I should not have dominion over my own body.
Funny that so many Republicans resent being 'dissed' or ridiculed by Dems, but it's OK for Gov Palin to ridicule Obama
Palin is a great opportunity for the Democrats to play the 'elitist' card.
After years of the Republicans blocking day-care aid, the Family Values types scolding working women for not staying home with their kids, and the conservatives' general disgust with anything Feminist...Now, when the right-wing needs women to win, they prop up a former Ms. Beauty Contest whose only career has been in politics, meaning the tax payer has effectively paid for her 5 kids while Palin was off hunting and fishing...The Republicans are telling true hard-working women everywhere that this pampered mouth piece for big oil is One Of You -even though all of the gov't assistance she has received is OK for one of their own, but not for you.
I don't understand why stay-at-home mothers feel as if a mother who left her family for her career represents them... Can you explain?
Ever since Palin was introduced to the race - the discussion has shifted from the poor economy, failing mortgage markets, rising gas prices and foreign policy issues (to name a few) to a discussion on family values and now republican feminism? doesn't that signify that the republican ticket isn't prepared to handle the real issues and are resorting to their campaign platforms of 2000? and do americans suffer from amnesia - have they forgotten what's at stake here?...
Palin is a post partum, pre menopausal woman.All women who have given birth know what this means, all women over 40 know what this means..
Why can't these physical changes in the psychology and function of women be discussed in relation to the Vice Pres. or Pres. position? This is not sexism it is function.
Nelson #11How do you know?
Middle America feels "dissed". Well, if they feel that strongly, maybe they should do something about it...maybe they should vote for change, real change. But, alas, they won't. They will vote for the Republicans again and bitch and moan about how they are getting the short end of the stick.
OMG MichaelW - @ #16 I am literally LMAO!
Bitter! Didn't someone whose name begins with O just have to apologize for remarking that some people are bitter. How does this work for one party and not for another? Frame, Frame, Frame!
How many working mothers can return to work and take their baby (ies) along with them including all the accoutrements, let the children remain with them during the day while they do their jobs, have them play in the hallways and generally remain with them all day? If Sarah Palin represents working mothers will she provide the same kind of work environment for them that she had if she gets into office?
Please address the racial overtones!
I agree that Red State Feminism is an Oxymoron. I am offended that the term feminist should be adopted by the very minds that vilified it in the first place. A pro-life feminist is someone who deeply misunderstand the entire CONCEPT of choice, let alone women's liberation and the history of the cause.
Is it possible that McCain's post convention bump among white women be attributed to religous right wing women who were undecided about McCain before he chose Palin?
Could it be that they are afraid of the big black guy that their daddy told them about when they were younger.
the abc poll shows that white women have become a lot more supportive of mccain. the data say that former clinton supporters still preferobama overwhelmingly, though. the breakdown among them is 72% for obama, 23% per mccain (rest undecided). this is essentially the sameas before palin. so it's the white women who were not actively supporting clinton that have gone toward mccain. think of it thisway: there were three types of white women before the conventions: (1) active clinton supporters, (2) undecided, and (3) republican supporters.
the (1) clinton supporters have mostly gone toward obama, the (2) undecided used to slightly favor obama, now they favor mccain,and the (3) republican supporters are still supporting mccain. when you add this up, the trend among the (2) undecided has contributed alot to mccain's advance in the polls. now, it is possible that clinton could have eventually won these undecided women over had shebeen the nominee. so palin may have drawn "would-be" clinton voters to mccain, even though she has not drawn those who were actively supporting clinton to mccain. in that way, the combination of clinton not being the dem nominee and palin being on the republican ticket may account for a lot of the mess the dems are in now.
this poll numbers are based on "registered voters", not "likely voters", so it's actually more reliable than most.
Obama said it beautifully.
You can put lip stick on a Palin and it's still a PIG.
There's a big backlash afoot--emails are flying around the web amongst American women who are furious over the Palin nomination:
The polling data cited on this show is widely reported to be skewed towards the Republican voters. The ABC poll had 34% Republicans answering in the previous poll, but 41% Republicans answering in the current poll - with a negative 6% shift in Democratic responders : a total shift of 13% favoring John McCain. This alone explains the 10% shift in women voters.
Could Ms. Kymowitz please discuss Governor Palin's membership in the 'feminist' organization, Feminists for Life? Is pro-life not somewhat antithetical to the feminist's agenda?
Is it true that only red state people love their families?
Red State Feminism = Oxymoron
in the spirit of "Chuck Norris facts", there is palinfacts.com, with gems like these:
"When Sarah Palin booked a flight to Europe, the French immediately surrendered.""Sarah Palin doesn’t need a gun to hunt. She has been known to throw a bullet through an adult bull elk."
and, video of Palin firing an M4 carbine -- competently, I add -- in Kuwaithttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFjqZ_vvLNc
this is a shocking contrast with that photo of Obama on a bike -- with helmet, of course.
The Dems walked right into this trap.
Okay Camille Paglia, what about the rest of us that don't fit in with your neat definitions? You are part of the problem!
"Now that's the Sarah Palin brand of can-do, no-excuses, moose-hunting feminism -- a world away from the whining, sniping, wearily ironic mode of the establishment feminism represented by Gloria Steinem, a Hillary Clinton supporter whose shameless Democratic partisanship over the past four decades has severely limited American feminism and not allowed it to become the big tent it can and should be."Paglia, again
I think Sarah Palin is Bush on steroids - and i disagree with Camille Paglia that feminism is about using "male qualities" - or becoming bullies
Palin: wrong woman, wrong messageSarah Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Hillary Clinton. Sheis Phyllis Schlafly, only younger.By Gloria SteinhemSeptember 4, 2008
Here's the good news: Women have become so politically powerful thateven the anti-feminist right wing -- the folks with a headlock on theRepublican Party -- are trying to appease the gender gap with afirst-ever female vice president. We owe this to women -- and to manymen too -- who have picketed, gone on hunger strikes or confrontedviolence at the polls so women can vote. We owe it to ShirleyChisholm, who first took the "white-male-only" sign off the WhiteHouse, and to Hillary Rodham Clinton, who hung in there throughridicule and misogyny to win 18 million votes.
But here is even better news: It won't work. This isn't the first timea boss has picked an unqualified woman just because she agrees withhim and opposes everything most other women want and need. Feminismhas never been about getting a job for one woman. It's about makinglife more fair for women everywhere. It's not about a piece of theexisting pie; there are too many of us for that. It's about baking anew pie.
this article continues - but is too big to post - read on http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-steinem4-2008sep04,0,7915118.story
"Feminism, which should be about equal rights and equal opportunity, should not be a closed club requiring an ideological litmus test for membership.Here's another example of the physical fortitude and indomitable spirit that Palin as an Alaskan sportswoman seems to represent right now. ......Frontier women were far bolder and hardier than today's pampered, petulant bourgeois feminists, always looking to blame their complaints about life on someone else."
Paglia, again, in the Slate articlehttp://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/index2.html
r.d.How can you know that? Isn't it possible to be attracted to someone while still disagreeing with him/her? And since we know that people generally don't vote with their heads doesn't it follow that it is possible to vote for someone you disagree with? It seems to happen all the time.
I would have to concur with R.D. A lot of my conservative friends that like Palin, never liked Obama or Hilary Clinton to begin with.
The thing is, The white women who are attracted to Palin were NEVER going to vote for Barack. The ideology is too far apart.
"...Palin represented an explosion of a brand new style of muscular American feminism. At her startling debut on that day, she was combining male and female qualities in ways that I have never seen before. And she was somehow able to seem simultaneously reassuringly traditional and gung-ho futurist. In terms of redefining the persona for female authority and leadership, Palin has made the biggest step forward in feminism since Madonna channeled the dominatrix persona of high-glam Marlene Dietrich and rammed pro-sex, pro-beauty feminism down the throats of the prissy, victim-mongering, philistine feminist establishment."- Camille Paglia, Slate
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