Streams

Is This the End?

Tuesday, June 03, 2008

Ben Smith, blogger and columnist at politico.com, discusses the status of Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.

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Ben Smith
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Comments [58]

Chris O from New York City

the Clintons' surrogates public push for the VP slot are quite obnoxious, quite unprecedented

Jun. 04 2008 09:32 AM
hjs from 11211

eva
is know you are in OR.
pill bottle is refering to comment taken down earlier today "robert" said of me, "manic depresent," who should climb back into his pill bottle (inside joke i guess since it was removed quickly.)
and ur 'concerns' have been addressed over and over. i wish we could move on. but some people don't want to. so, u made ur yourself the issue. i don't want to talk about HRC for the next 4 years. i'm sure u do.

Jun. 03 2008 10:08 PM
eva

I just can't see how he could pick Clinton - separate all the other issues, it would NOT win him the general election to have such a polarizing person on his ticket. Conventional wisdom is that he needs a white male. (The "too much change" factor.)

Jun. 03 2008 08:29 PM
seth from Long Island

Eva #54,

I know which lever I'm not pulling if the ticket is Obama/Clinton, but I hear where you're coming from. I hope you don't have to face this decision. There are many qualified VP candidates out there whose last name is not Clinton.

Jun. 03 2008 08:21 PM
eva

Seth, #53,
Hopefully I will NEVER have to answer that question... because it is so unlikely that he will pick her. Know what I mean?

Jun. 03 2008 08:11 PM
seth from Long Island

Eva #45,

Will you vote for Obama if he chooses Hillary as his running mate?

Jun. 03 2008 08:06 PM
seth from Long Island

Hillary has a Sen seat for life because NY's Republican party exists in name only. I don't like the idea that Obama is obligated to make Hillary VP, cabinet secy, or Sup Ct justice.

Jun. 03 2008 08:04 PM
Chris O from New York City

thanks eva - i think HRC is a realist but probably a lot more progressive and intellectual than politics allows; on the court, she would be able to let her full intellect, and hopefully her more youthful progressive ways come to the fore

i don't like the idea of the national primary because it is too much like a national election, i support the rotating regional primaries that Seth promoted

Jun. 03 2008 07:26 PM
eva

a further argument in favor of HRC as a supreme court justice:
today on Jim Lehrer, they were discussing her missteps on the campaign trail, and one of her problems was that she learned the campaign ropes from Bill, which severely limited her view of the playing field because the playing field is no longer 1992 or 1996.
Bill has no experience as a justice, so she would be learning the role all on her own. She could really excel.

Jun. 03 2008 07:16 PM
eva

#47, Chris O, an excellent idea, and a role she would love and be GREAT at.
It's actually a much cooler job than either vp or pres, when you think about it.
Obama has the slippery people skills that Bill had, back when he was a rock star president and a rock-star expresident. Hillary doesn't. But a supreme court justice? Perfect. She loves detail, she's brilliant - just not a natural leader. Most of us aint!

Jun. 03 2008 07:09 PM
eva

Seth, #46,
In a quest for "unity" I will gladly work with Hillary supporters to fix our nominating process. I want a one-day national primary after a long series of debates and meetandgreets. Is that so wrong?

Jun. 03 2008 07:02 PM
Chris O from New York City

hey hjs - i am one of the 10, i feel special

i don't think HRC is the best choice for VP; she would be great in helping unify the party, that is true, but it would not help unify the country or balance the ticket or appeal to moderates and independents - it is a tough call on which is more important

but a promise to be his 1st Supreme Court nominee would probably get her enthusiastic support and campaigning, and she is eminently qualified for that position and might actually be a great Justice

Jun. 03 2008 06:59 PM
seth from Long Island

I hope Hillary's most loyal supporters use their disppointment/anger to push for fixing our nominating process. While I'm glad Obama won, I want a better system. I hope we can take IA and NH off Mt Olympus and go with rotating regional primaries. I'd love it if the popular vote became the metric for choosing future nominees and presidents.

Jun. 03 2008 06:56 PM
eva

mc,
re: Seth's #44 comment
Look how Hillary builds "unity"! Don't say I didn't try to (passionately and repeatedly) warn you....

Jun. 03 2008 06:41 PM
seth from Long Island

hjs and mc,

My desire for unity ends if Hillary is the VP nominee. She has many great surrogates and I'll gladly for vote for any one of them.

Jun. 03 2008 06:37 PM
eva

mc,
I agree with you to the extent that it will be an uphill climb. I disagree with anyone who claims he HAS to have her on the ticket.
I respect your choice, but I disagree with it, sometimes passionately, and as long as Hillary had any proximity to the WH, it is unreasonable to think people will just lie down and be nice. She is just too polarizing.
I think you're missing my point, which I've been trying to make without much luck. That is, you're counting up the anti-Hillary comments vs. the anti-Obama comments, without putting it in the context of how enraged a lot of Democrats feel about her behavior throughout the campaign. Instead, we're just unreasonably anti-Hillary. Well, we're angry with her for a reason. We handed her power, and she misused it.

Jun. 03 2008 06:36 PM
mc from Brooklyn

Oy! Got to go. I'm feeling much more unified now.

Jun. 03 2008 06:31 PM
seth from Long Island

mc and hjs,

mc - I was unclear on your position. Thx for correcting me. I apologize my error. I never called Hillary the Antichrist. If you think that's my opinion, you're misrepresenting me. In my opinion, Bill and Hillary are the equivalents of Bush and Cheney. I don't think they're demonic. I think they're too corrupt and too dishonest to sit in the White House. If Obama picks Hillary, I'm voting 3rd party.

Jun. 03 2008 06:30 PM
mc from Brooklyn

seth, read my post #32. Not going to repeat myself.

eva, you can read it too. Not suggesting anything about the ticket. I think you should give him more credit for running a good campaign, rather than her running a bad one. I wish he had a less squishy domestic plan going forward. Whoever wins is going to get clobbered by the economy. Luckily for him (more luck! Yay!) John McCain is equally inept in this area.

Jun. 03 2008 06:29 PM
eva

hjs,
We're in different time zones, have alternating work shifts. But if you think a person who voted for the Clintons three times (two pres, 1 senate) is too rabidly anti-Hillary, how were you going to take the general with the truly rabid anti-Clintonists. Again, easier to attack the opposition than to address their concerns about your candidate in any real manner, or just to acknowledge your candidate's vulnerabilities?
Good luck with the pill bottle, whatever that is? :(

Jun. 03 2008 06:28 PM
mc from Brooklyn

eva,
antichrist, perhaps some hyperbole on my part. I am not alone.

I believe she would have had roughly the same odds in the general as he has. Uphill for either of them. They both need each other's supporters. It would be good if the two camps stopped sniping at each other. I could come out here with a tirade about BHO, but what would it accomplish? It would only start a useless argument. So why persist? Neither side is going to change the other's mind. I respect your choice; I would appreciate your respecting mine? Reasonable?

Jun. 03 2008 06:22 PM
eva

I think what this points out is how lucky Obama has been in his political career - I have high regard for Obama, but I also realize that luck plays a role, so consider:
he came into the senate because the person he was running against was involved in a scandal
now he's come into the Dem nomination IN PART because the person he was running against 1) carried so much baggage and 2) ran such an incompetent campaign.
The good thing about this is that he doesn't look fortune in the mouth - I think he's ready to make good on it. But having Hillary on the ticket is going to tank him in November - why do you think Rush Limbaugh was supporting HRC?

Jun. 03 2008 06:19 PM
hjs from 11211

seth 34
who said that?
didn't u ask that yesterday? u didn't care for my answer ?

Jun. 03 2008 06:18 PM
hjs from 11211

eva
the issue is obsession. day in, day out sometimes in the middle of the night, same tune from you. i have theories about it but not really my concern.
i guess we are all a bit sick to be on this board at this time. like anyone else cares except the 10 people that might read this one day.
well time for me 'to climb back into my pill bottle'

Jun. 03 2008 06:16 PM
seth from Long Island

mc and hjs,

So, the only way Hillary supporters vote for Obama is if Hillary is his running mate? Hillary is simultaneously extremely popular and extremely unpopular. She is too radioactive to be a viable running mate.

Jun. 03 2008 06:15 PM
eva

Never claimed they were the anti-Christ, mc.
Just unacceptable to reside in the Oval Office.
Still wondering, though, how you thought Hill was going to survive in the general, when so many Democrats, people who once voted for her husband (and in NY for her) hated her.

Jun. 03 2008 06:14 PM
mc from Brooklyn

eva,
I am not asking you for an explanation. You have made your position abundantly clear. (Still waiting for that venality though).

seth,
I never suggested that he has to select her as a running mate. Don't put words in my mouth. If he does select her and it is a dealbreaker for you are you staying home in Nov.?

Speaking truth to power is always OK. We part ways (you and I, eva) on tha charaterization of the Clintons. Not perfect in my opinion, but hardly the antichrist.

Jun. 03 2008 06:12 PM
eva

and to be fair, hjs, to say that saying no to Clintonian sleaze is a "fetish" is not reasonable. Any Obama supporter on this board could just as well call you out for your not so nice comments, but you choose to see what you want to see. Further, yesterday's argument still holds, and I challenge either of you to come up with a reasonable response:
If HRC was so repellent to Dems who once voted for her that she lost her early lead and is now crawling for vp spot, how do you think she'd fare once you add the Republicans in the run up to the general election? If she claimed her former supporters were unfair to her, oh, baby, she wasn't ready or tough enough for the GOP.

Jun. 03 2008 06:12 PM
hjs from 11211

seth
so ur not voting for an obama-HRC ticket. interesting

Jun. 03 2008 06:11 PM
eva

hjs,
Prego.... If, after all the scandals of the 1990's and HRC's sleazy campaign, you rightly consider the Clintons unacceptable and call them on it, does that make you not a "better person"?
Is speaking truth to power not okay if it's against the Clintons?
They're bad for you, hjs, and the people have spoken up. Obama came out of nowhere, and it's not because HRC was a great candidate.
You deserve better than the Clintons.

Jun. 03 2008 06:06 PM
hjs from 11211

eva,
i would need a degree in psychology to understand this fetish, sorry

Jun. 03 2008 06:06 PM
mc from Brooklyn

hjs,
Yeah. He seems to realize that he actually needs HRC's supporters, something that many seem to want to forget.

Are we unified yet?

Jun. 03 2008 06:04 PM
seth from Long Island

mc and hjs,

Is it asking too much that Obama resist the frenzied, hysterical media cacophony to select Hillary as his running mate? Do both of you seriously believe that Obama can only beat McCain if Hillary is his running mate? I refuse to accept this premise. I think the 3 of us probably agree on many issues with the exception of the Clintons. This Obama/Hillary ticket is just a dealbreaker for me.

Jun. 03 2008 06:02 PM
eva

mc and hjs,
we've explained it, but you don't want to listen.
Not listening/paying attention: That's how Hillary lost.

Jun. 03 2008 06:01 PM
hjs from 11211

mc
i'm just glad obama is a better person than some of his alleged supporters

Jun. 03 2008 06:00 PM
mc from Brooklyn

hjs,
It makes me wonder too. Everyone talks about unity and then...

Jun. 03 2008 05:56 PM
hjs from 11211

mc
it's irrational isn't it?
makes me wonder...

Jun. 03 2008 05:46 PM
mc from Brooklyn

HRC-3, BHO-0

Not bad, folks. Are we having unity yet?

Jun. 03 2008 05:44 PM
hjs from 11211

i think we, democrats, deserve to win the white house more than once every generation.

Jun. 03 2008 05:35 PM
eva

seth,
can't disagree. After the Clintons, I feel that every Democrat has the right to threaten the new Democrat in the White House with dire physical retribution if he dares to pollute the Oval Office with cheap behavior, or pardons scumbugs, or lies under oath.
When I took my mother to see John Edwards last summer, she waited in line to shake his hand, and then asked, "Will you promise me something?" Like any politician, he said yes, and then she said: "Promise me you won't commit any impeachable offenses." I was shocked. But looking back on it, she's right, they owe us that small thing. We don't give them the White House, we just pay the rent on it for them, unless they screw up. Democrats can't afford to tolerate abuse of power anymore, the stakes are too high. And to say that the Clintons weren't as bad as the last seven years is setting the bar unbelievably low. We are Democrats, and deserve higher standards.

Jun. 03 2008 05:23 PM
seth from Long Island

Eva,

To me, there are big strikes against Hillary for VP. First, all the ethics baggage. She's never been convicted of anything, but for me, she and Bill are just too sleazy to stomach any longer. Second, all the fear-mongering and race-baiting she used in this campaign. When she said McCain was more qualified than Obama to be President that told me all I need to know about Hillary. According to her, she and McCain are up here and Obama is down there. It's time to turn the pg and end the Bush Clinton kakistocracy.

Jun. 03 2008 05:01 PM
hjs from 11211

it's time to worry about ohio

Jun. 03 2008 04:58 PM
eva

seth,
agreed, soon. I think it's unlikely they're going to pick her. Jim Webb, that would be great. I'd be happy enough if he picked Edwards, Richardson, Biden.
Biden, that would be cool, someone old school who's open to working with him
Everyone said months ago that Obama choosing Hillary would be "TOO MUCH Change" but that's when it wasn't clear he would clinch the nomination. Now, it's suddenly not too much change?
There's also an irony in her asking to be vp, given the way Al Gore was treated during his 8 years as vp. He was basically locked into the broom closet for 8 years

Jun. 03 2008 04:39 PM
seth from Long Island

Eva #14,

Obama needs a marathon strategy session with his top aides. The longer he waits to name a running mate, the louder and more hysterical the media crescendo will grow for Hillary to be chosen. Obama needs to quickly pull a rabbit out of a hat and name his running mate ASAP.

Jun. 03 2008 04:30 PM
eva

what gall for her to say that she's "open" to the vice presidency
the entitlement continues...
just say no, Obama.

Jun. 03 2008 04:18 PM
seth from Long Island

Obama should offer Hillary the post of US ambassador to Bosnia. Seriously, I think Hillary is a horrible VP choice and hope Obama can withstand the withering barrage of badgering by the MSM which has just begun. Hillary has many great surrogates Obama can choose from. This is where Obama should look to make his choice.

Jun. 03 2008 04:14 PM
eva

Jimmy Carter has now endorsed Obama.
He never approved of the Clintons, either.
So why should ordinary Americans have to?

hjs,
I'm really sorry, but the Clinton bashing will likely ocntinue as long as either of them are anywhere near the White House. You can't just blame me and all her detractors - at a certain point, you have to accept both Clintons are incredibly polarizing.

Jun. 03 2008 04:10 PM
eva

I seriously hope he doesn't pick HRC as his candidate.
Give the Clintons time to rest and heal from their disgraceful behavior. Everyone is human, prolonged access to power only exacerbates our flaws, and hubris has its price. Bill is having some obvious problems, Hillary's beat herself to a pulp in this race.
Give them an ambassadorship someplace... preferably far away and restful and nice where they can enjoy their lives.
I wish the best for them, but I am, like more than half of America, no longer enamored of Bill's once-formidable but now-all-but-forgotten charms, and no longer able to tolerate Hillary.

Jun. 03 2008 04:04 PM
hjs from 11211

political junkie 8

ya i'll be happy when all the clinton bashing is finished and we can fight together for victory in november

Jun. 03 2008 03:44 PM
hjs from 11211

"Clinton says she is willing to serve as Obama's vice president" ya ME too!

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/361659.html

Jun. 03 2008 03:42 PM
political junkie from nyc

Wasn't it Bill Clinton who said something about not putting on the uniform if you weren't up to the fight? If Hillary & Co. thinks their treatment has been harsh, disrespectful and unfair so far, then perhaps they aren't ready for a general election fracas which will include the "respectful, polite and absolutely honest" 527 groups. I'll just be glad when the whining is over and we can start on the path towards a better world beginning on Jan. 20, 2009 (whichever democrat gets the nomination).

Jun. 03 2008 03:39 PM
seth from Long Island

HarlemLady,

I hardly consider it disrepectful that Obama clinches the nomination on the LAST day of voting in the nominating process. Would you prefer that they wait until the start of the Democratic convention? 48 states have alreday voted. 2 states are voting today. Hillary supporters have had the chance to vote for her in 48 states already. SD and Montana are not being disrespected. This process needs to be wrapped up.

Jun. 03 2008 02:08 PM
eva

Leon,
"slanderer/philanderer", another good one. But your "conceding early sucks/Al Gore redux" from yesterday was really a classic.
I think you should build out into hip-hop rhyming. Lay some beats under it, then submit it to the show. It could be really funny.

Jun. 03 2008 01:47 PM
mc from Brooklyn

Dear HarlemLady,
Thank you. Your is the kind of attitude that will lead to unity going forward regardless of what HRC's ultimate role is.

Jun. 03 2008 12:51 PM
HarlemLady from Harlem New York

How disrespectful of the small states they have the right to vote and be heard and not ignored. Since February the pundits have been ganging up on Hillary and I am appalled - I guess its true when down keep kicking them, or they may get up - I'm an Obama supporter but the treatment of Hillary has been sickening

Jun. 03 2008 12:02 PM
ch from Staten Island

Oh for pity sake! Hillary is A PRIMA D.Q.! If she cannot even get through the nomination without using double-speak to turn the whole thing into a soap-opera fiasco, how can she expect us to trust her to run the most powerful nation in the world?

Jun. 03 2008 11:56 AM
David Alexander from Queens, NY

Keep in mind the dirty tricks by Richard Nixon - sending messages to multiple Democratic campaigns to cause chaos and mutual antagonism.

What if it is a McCain supporter (or his campaign) doing this? Not that McCain strikes me as Nixon did, but his supporters could do it.

Jun. 03 2008 11:55 AM
Leon Freilich from Park Slope

F.P. BILL

If Hillary's our next V.P.,

Wonders a wicked slanderer,

Will Bill still be entitled to

Be called the First Philanderer?

Jun. 03 2008 11:55 AM

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