Joseph Mitchell and Ryszard Kapuscinski created some of the most celebrated narrative non-fiction of this century; full of indelible characters, scenes, and dialogue. But both have been dogged by accusations that they doctored dialogue, manufactured scenes and created composite characters. In an interview that originally aired in December 2010, Bob talks with celebrated narrative non-fiction writer Lawrence Weschler about great writers and questionable facts.
BOB GARFIELD: As a writer of supposed non-fiction who fictionalized his work, Capote is joined by such giants as New Yorker writer Joseph Mitchell and Polish journalist and author, Ryszard Kapuscinski. When Kapuscinski’s crimes against non-fiction were discovered a couple of years ago, I spoke to Lawrence Weschler, NYU professor and master of narrative nonfiction himself. I was upset to find out that one of my heroes had cheated. Weschler told me he thought that my rules of journalistic truth and consequences were misguided.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: And I would start out by asking you is anybody ever not making stuff up? When you pick up the newspaper and read about a news conference, let's say, you are relying on the reporter to select the important things and to put them in a particular order. You are assuming that his editor has gone and reshaped those things. That is all fictional activity, in the sense that it is composing, it is making up a world. We should at least start with that.
Something I often think about is Borges, the great Argentinean writer, who says that there are two universes. There is the universe of material reality, of bodies, of places, and there is the universe of words. And any attempt to shape a representation of one in terms of the other is provisional, at best. It is falling apart, as we speak. It is something which he calls a fiction.
BOB GARFIELD: All right, so stipulated, journalism is by its very nature subjective.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: I would stipulate it is more glorious than that. It is narrative. It is storytelling. And there’s a kind of story that you seem to prefer, from the way you’re talking – just the fact, ma’am, blah-blah-blah –
BOB GARFIELD: Okay, hold, hold on. We’re talking about narrative. Let’s speak about Joseph Mitchell, who -
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Okay.
BOB GARFIELD: - I must say was one of my great heroes, and wrote about these just absolutely indelible characters. And, lo and behold, come to discover sometime in the nineties, at least in my case, that these remarkable characters weren't individuals. They were -
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Not all of them were. There were a few composites. And, and in particular, there was one book in particular, Old Mr. Flood, which was quite consciously a more fictional exercise, but most of the stories he told were, were not composites. I mean, Joe Gould, I would argue, the single greatest piece of American narrative nonfiction of the 20th century, Joe Gould was by no means a composite. Having said that, there’s all sorts of fictional devices that Mitchell uses, to extraordinary effect and, I would argue, in the service of, of the truth of the story.
BOB GARFIELD: So what’s the difference between truth with a lower-case “t,” which I think would rule out fabrication, and truth with a capital “T” that permits it?
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Well, let's take the example of Joe Gould’s Secret. When you read that text, there are these 20-page conversations that are just absolutely grueling and amazing and marvelous, at the same time. I would argue that the conversation did not take place exactly like that. And he tells you this, that he had dozens and dozens and dozens of conversations with Joe Gould over a period of months, and that he is then giving you a sense of what it was like to talk to Joe Gould. Whether or not Joe Gould said those particular things, at that particular conversation, of course, he didn't.
BOB GARFIELD: So then you’re saying that when you learned that Ryszard Kapuscinski’s portrait of Emperor Haile Salassie -
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Mm-hmm.
BOB GARFIELD: - were just filled with inventions and fabrications and historical inaccuracies, that you didn't feel betrayed?
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: No. First of all, I don't buy any of those characterizations at all, and you’re wrong about all of them. This whole story is being told in a different register. During the daytime, he was a press agency reporter for the Polish Press Agency. He would file typical journalistic stories, in the same way that, for example, Oliver Sacks, in his daily-ness, does clinical notes of that day’s meetings with different patients. Years later, they return to the story in a different register, what I call rhapsodic nonfiction. They sing it in a different mode. “I am back here in Poland. I am telling you a story about what it was like there.
One of the things that is conspicuous when you read The Emperor is he has all these different people telling stories, and they all have exactly the same voice. This is not because he’s incompetent. This is because he’s conspicuously giving you a kind of “Aladdin and the 40 Nights” kind of quality to what he’s doing. In the case of Kapuscinski, what he was doing in that book – it is an absolutely remarkable piece of literature – he was writing in Poland, in 1978, having an incredible game going on with the censor. This was the late days, just before Solidarity, of an incredibly corrupt regime. And because he was writing about the downfall of an incredibly corrupt capitalist-oriented regime, Haile Selassie, he could tell that story and everybody in Poland knew that he was really talking about the Communists, and everybody knew that the censors couldn't block him because he was telling the official version of what had happened.
BOB GARFIELD: Yeah, Haile Selassie was his beard and the Emperor was a sort of Animal Farm.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: It operates as a reportage of a certain sort but also as a specific allegory of what was going on in Poland. It operates as general allegory of any kind of system that you’ve ever lived in. You’ve, I’m sure, worked under an emperor in your time. And it, for that matter, just operates in the realm of Kafka and Márquez.
BOB GARFIELD: So are there no victims, however, among those who believed they were getting the inside dope on Haile Selassie and the people whose stories were being told?
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: I think, first of all, an awful lot of what you’re reading in The Emperor is what you would call inside dope. There are flights, and I think they advertise themselves as flights. And one is expected, as a reader of literature, of which this is, by the way, and by the way, Joseph Mitchell is literature also, in addition to being reportage of a certain sort – one is expected to be an adult reader. It was a different sort of activity than daily journalism and needs to be read that way.
BOB GARFIELD: You know, I know you’re going to dismiss me as a silly reactionary but to me the quotation mark is an affidavit from the author certifying verbatim. If I'm putting it between the quotation marks, that means this is what he or she said, in these words, perhaps cleaned up, to reflect the difference between spoken language and written language, but certainly not shading meaning any which way.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Mm-hmm.
BOB GARFIELD: Is that a - just a preposterously naïve way to approach quotation marks?
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: It’s not preposterously naïve, but look, here I'm gonna talk for myself. I have never had a quote of mine challenged, something I've put in quotation marks. I generally don't use tape recorders. I basically try to give both the gist of what was said and the voice in which it was said. I don't think I've ever quoted anybody verbatim. I quote what people remember having said. I am scrupulously fair. Something which I do that a lot of people don't do is I show the quotes to people before I publish them.
In my first book, my profile of Robert Irwin, Seeing is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees, that was the result of three years of conversations. I took those conversations and I would go home and write notes, and when I then put the story together, I created a series of scenes, gave you a sense of what it was like to hang out with Robert Irwin. You want me to give you a sense of what it’s like to walk down the street with David Hockney, what it’s like to be at the War Crimes Tribunal, and so forth. You want the quotes to be quotes that the person who is being quoted would stand behind as something that they said.
But verbatim is not the issue. You do this all the time. You know you do this. You've had shows about how you do this. You take quotes, you take something from here and you put it next to something from there, and so forth, because you then get a closer representation of what was actually said. The person spoke for five minutes, you find the 30 seconds out of that five minutes that add up to a single thing, and no one accuses you, if you do a good job of it, if you’re honest, if you’re fair and so forth, no one accuses you of breaking any rules.
BOB GARFIELD: What you say is true and, just like you, we have never in ten years had a complaint about misrepresenting anybody’s idea.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: You've killed my tooth fairy! You mean, people don't say the things they say on your show in the way they say them?
BOB GARFIELD/UNDER BREATH: Yeah, yeah, point taken.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: [LAUGHS] By the way, I should tell you a funny story. I was once on a panel with Ian Frazier. Somebody raised - in the audience raised their hand and, and asked which novels we read. And I gave the novels that I read. And then we turned to him, and he said, I don't read novels. And I said, what do you mean you don't read novels? He said, well, you know, when you read a novel it begins, Johnny was walking down the street, and all I can think of is, no he wasn't! [LAUGHS]
BOB GARFIELD: [LAUGHING] And, and now that is exactly how I have to approach all journalism because, if your standards apply, I can't get past the inverted pyramid.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Let's be clear on my standards. At the top of my standards are fairness, accuracy, creating something that is true to life. All that are very high in my standards. I'm just claiming that it is impossible to go out there as if you’re gonna laminate the world, as if you’re gonna take a Xerox machine and put it up to the face of reality and deliver it to your, to your readers.
That’s ridiculous. Everything, everything is selection, is shading, is trying to figure out what order things should go in, and so forth, is, is imputing significance to a whole series of granular facts, and so forth. That happens all the time. And the people who I cherish are people who can tell me stories that illuminate the world for me in an accurate way. And nothing I have described detracts from that.
BOB GARFIELD: Ren, thank you very much.
LAWRENCE WESCHLER: Thank you.
BOB GARFIELD: Lawrence Weschler is the director of the New York Institute for the Humanities.
[THEME MUSIC/MUSIC UP AND UNDER]
BOB GARFIELD: That's it for this week's show. On the Media was produced by Jamie York, Alex Goldman, PJ Vogt, Sarah Abdurrahman and Chris Neary. We had more help from Khrista Rypl. And the show was edited - by Brooke. Our technical director is Jennifer Munson. Our engineer this week was Rob Frankel.
BROOKE GLADSTONE: Katya Rogers is our senior producer. And we want to give a special, special thanks to the great Jamie York for filling in while she was on maternity leave for six months. Jim Schachter is WNYC’s vice-president for News. Bassist composer Ben Allison wrote our theme. On the Media is produced by WNYC and distributed by NPR. I’m Brooke Gladstone.
BOB GARFIELD: And I’m Bob Garfield.