Streams

Hanna Rosin on the End of Men and the Rise of Women

Thursday, September 13, 2012

Hanna Rosin, senior editor at The Atlantic, discusses men, women, and power in a transformed world. In The End of Men: And the Rise of Women, Rosin looks at how women have pulled decisively ahead of men, and she reveals how this shift has profound implications for marriage, sex, children, work, and more.

Guests:

Hanna Rosin

Comments [41]

Customer preferences can close jobs to men.


Sometimes customer preferences can close jobs to men.
The vast majority of customers for visiting nurses
or elder care personel express a strong preference
for hiring females. They simply will refuse to hire
a qualified male. To a lesser extent this also may
apply to higher end retail and hospitality industry work.
This discrimination is particularly trye for child care workers.
(It seems that men who spend time around children at
work are automatically assumed to be potential victimizers
rather than employees). This gross discrimination should
stop. Nevertheless, as long as customers' preferences
do not change, these growing areas of potential employment
will be largely closed to men.

The resulting unemployed men will continue to be ostracized
from society and grossly disempowered. They will continue
to be mocked and considered to be like recalcetrant, lazy
"children" - burdens who are "another mouth to feed".
This is not something to be celebrated. It is also
not right to blame the victims.

Sep. 13 2012 02:47 PM
Misandry be women in power and hostile workplaces.


Some women in power engage in ACTIVE MISANDRY.
Some copy the WORST of powerful male stereotypes.
Others see it as an assertion of power - that they
have arrived.
Others still see it as a victory for feminism and a
(female) chauvanist counterpunishment against the
past bad behavior by OTHER men.

By doing so, and by fostering a work environment that
is OVERTLY MISANDRIST and hostile to male employees
they create discrimination against men.

This is surprizingly common - particularly in female
dominated workplaces. Men feel that they cannot
complain or will be laughed at or worse still be told
by power feminists that they "had it coming" just for
being male. Many fear ridicule and retaliation.

The fact that educated professional women who should know
better are often seen PUBLICLY endorsing this sort
of behavior or the NEW stereotypes of MALE inferiority
makes matters far worse. Very few educated or profession
males would engage in such overtly discriminatory behavior,
and if they did they would KNOW that it was wrong.
They would also most likely loose their jobs and positions
and be justly ostracized. Yet when women do so they
are often exaulted for it.

Open misandry by women in power should stop.

Sep. 13 2012 02:38 PM
Ibrahim

I was so disappointed by this guest. Summarily, her conclusion is: men are too boneheaded, and they should go back to school if they want to survive in the "new" economy. If anyone is sincere in understanding the background of this topic, please watch this talk given by Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers:
http://youtu.be/cqOTj9NDv80

On another note, it's no surprise that our recession has coincided with the loss of our manufacturing base in this country. Any real economist will tell you that engineering and technology is the only field that creates wealth, and most of this is gone. The only industries that can show any growth is artificially propped up by government, ie, health care and education, which are overrepresented by women.

Sep. 13 2012 02:31 PM
Judah from Manhattan

Wow, the male defensiveness on this thread is pathetic. Tom from LI: you are a putz. This interview was fabulous. Hannah Rosin's research and writing is of the highest degree.

Also, Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights, I love the name. That's my old stomping grounds.

Sep. 13 2012 02:26 PM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

Even Gloria Steinem got married - to a MAN.

Looks like the fish did need the bicycle.

Sep. 13 2012 01:17 PM
tom LI

To Anonymous - we hired a Mom as a receiving clerk and all she can do is talk about her family and how special her kids are...blah, blah, blah, blah...

Its boring as he//. None of us care, nor should we...sh/t up and work...!

Sep. 13 2012 01:05 PM
female

Ed from Larchmont are you some kind of women-hating neanderthal? May you come back in the next life as a woman in a regressive society so you can experience sexism firsthand.

Sep. 13 2012 01:00 PM
tom LI

Due to the epic failure of Feminism - the attack now is the same. Blame men for everything, including their genetics.

Feminism and all it entails failed because contrary to the rhetoric, Women never came to the table with anything new or as they claimed a better way of doing business. Instead they became the worst of what men can be be. They thought that dressing like men, smoking cigars, swearing and drinking and sleeping around like men would make then equal. Well it failed. Behaving like men didn't fix the inherent problems n the workplace, or home. It exacerbated them...and bred a generation or two of females who are clueless asto how different we are and should be...who think there is no reason to fight for an across the board parity, but like men, fight only for their share.

I hear it all the time, women, girls, denigrating older female bosses, and scrambling for only a little more for themselves, and no one else. Where I hear the men and boys - who of course complain too - but they tend to be more open to learning from their bosses - where the women/girls think there's nothing to learn from others.

Woman have failed to offer an alternative to the old paradigm that "they"were originally fighting against. And now it seems the attack is still on men, and not their own lack of offering anything new, or being the compassionate and nurturing workmates and/or mentors they keep trying to sell us.

Sep. 13 2012 12:58 PM
Henry from Manhattan

I, for one, welcome our new female overlords.

Ladies, just set things up better than men ever did (not difficult) and I’ll have no problems with the new female regime.

Sep. 13 2012 12:50 PM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

What does an "Administrative Asst." do???

Sep. 13 2012 12:44 PM
Em

Why such a provocative title??? It reveals a cavalier attitude to the issues. And it's disingenuous and misleading. These circumstances are not new. Economies ebb and flow and there is plenty of evidence historically for women picking up the slack in difficult times. Women still have no genuine economic power en masse, for all the "oppressed male" commentary. And, historically the pendulum has always swung back to male dominance for all the obvious reasons. Admittedly women are more educated now, but look at Soviet Russia, where women took over the Medical Profession; suddenly the income of doctors dropped dramatically, so too the respect, as this now became "women's work." Her arguments don't prove to me to be of any significance long-term, because the cultural attitudes, particularly faith based, have not changed significantly. Millions of women lived as independent career women after WW1 - did that change our situation in the way that it should have according to her talking points? Of course not.

Women still elect men disproportionately to govern them, and still pray to a male god. They are also consistently persuaded to keep physically small and vulnerable and more concerned about their looks than their minds. Until all these things start changing in real numbers I won't be interested in these facile discussions.

This writer by using this title, is contributing to a adversarial attitude toward women that will contribute to misogyny by the majority of people that will read no more than the title. It is irresponsible to promote this kind of fear and anxiety toward women, especially when domestic violence is still so prevalent and always grows during recession. But what would you expect from an comfortable Atlantic writer who knows how to turn an easy buck.

Sep. 13 2012 12:42 PM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

Anonymous from Manhattan

"**sp..I meant MANAGER of course."

Don't worry. The auto-correct in my brain fixed it, as I read it as "manager".

Sep. 13 2012 12:42 PM
Anonymous from Manhattan

**sp..I meant MANAGER of course.

Sep. 13 2012 12:39 PM
Anonymous from Manhattan

We hired a young man as an Administrative Asst. where I work and all he can talk about is his previous job where he was a manger....the ego of the male blocks their intelligence. I didn't know what he did prior to him telling me.

Sep. 13 2012 12:36 PM
Michael Friedlander from Nyack, NY

To suggest that the behavioral differences between men and women are primarily cultural and not intrinsic to our species is to ignore DNA, recent brain studies, and the entire animal kingdom. Females of almost all species are responsible for child-rearing because they're wired that way. To suggest that men can be just as good as women at multi-tasking flies in the face of countless studies to the contrary. Can we, as males, learn to be better at traditional females roles? Yes, of course. But to make any man feel "less than" because he's not good at managing the baby while making dinner is to ignore the physical evidence right before our eyes.

Sep. 13 2012 12:34 PM
Another view

In the 1940s or before, American women stopped butchering meat, cooking well or cooking at all, sewing clothes, making curtains, etc. Since the late 1800s or before kids have been required to go to school all day.

An appropriate question might be to explore what women had been doing between 1940 and this spurt of female professionalism -- and whatever it was, why didn't they like it?

.

Sep. 13 2012 12:33 PM

Who knew that men were so irrelevant.

Sep. 13 2012 12:33 PM
fuva from harlemworld

AMP, right on. As usual...

Also, not saying that one is better than the other, but is the equivalency being drawn between male and female parenting shortsighted?

Sep. 13 2012 12:33 PM
The Truth from Becky

I wish other Women would stop speaking for me! I work hard but I don't want to "Rise" or "take the lead" to define myself.

Sep. 13 2012 12:33 PM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

Boys and men are being short changed.

I read that more female college students outnumber male college students.

The over patronizing of girls has hurt boys.

Time to level the playing field.

Boys need to be encouraged too.

Sep. 13 2012 12:32 PM
John A

Juat imagine the outrage we'd have if a man were here today talking about how wives sit at home as nothing but a dependant so that having "Girls on the Side" is the only way out. Outrageous? Its just the mirror of what Hana has just given us.

Sep. 13 2012 12:31 PM
Jim B

Do we need affirmative action for men?

Sep. 13 2012 12:29 PM
Vinny from Manlapan, NJ

Men are the new Ball and Chain. Now that is funny.

Sep. 13 2012 12:27 PM
MichaelB from Morningside Heights

How can you say it is culture unless you compare to many different cultures all over the world and history, even our own going back in our own history -- which if we think about it, hardly share the cultural cues of our current culture.

Sep. 13 2012 12:25 PM
Anna from UWS

I survived a couple of layoffs by working as a secretary. My purely anecdotal
observation is that men aren't as willing to work as administrative assistants and in any case are less likely to be hired.

Sep. 13 2012 12:23 PM
John A

Hanna has her kid gloves on Today. Not an easy target.
-
I actually have had a good career. I do note the concept of the "working widow" as mentioned recently by Lynn Povich. People (men included) who spend their lives in their job, finding that at 35 or so, its too late for children or for much of a marriage.

Sep. 13 2012 12:23 PM
Rosalie from Long Island

This is the writing on the wall that the "Karl Roves" in politics have understood for a long time, hence their willingness to stoop to very low levels to suppress the vote, cater to the extreme right (what better way to get women back into the kitchen, bare foot and pregnant, than to take away their right to choose) and create racial fear mongering in political ads. These political men are fighting for their lives (or more likely, their livelihoods). So sad. In addition, the men in power should have thought about not discriminating against women for so any years. It has come back to bite them: why pay a man $1 when you can pay a woman $.75? Sorry, but they did this to themselves.

Sep. 13 2012 12:23 PM
Estelle

Wouldn't it be more accurate and productive to talk in terms of CHANGES for men, rather than "The End" of them? For goodness' sake---as if they need to be more insecure (insecurity accounts for most of their psych issues in the first place).

Sep. 13 2012 12:21 PM
@phantomath from Long Island City, Queens

I was the media professional guy who asked Ms. Rosin the first (rambling) question of the evening. Appreciated the advice for Gen X/Y men. Thanks.

Sep. 13 2012 12:21 PM
Libby from Queens

How does the decline of marriage, as mentioned in Charles Murray's latest book, affect decline of men? Doesn't marriage provide motivation for men to work and succeed?

Sep. 13 2012 12:20 PM
Stay at Home Dad/NJ

In our family's case the beautiful children my wife and I have produced, and to whom I provide the primary care-taking, would not exist if our roles were reversed and she stayed home and dealt w the kids.

I have endless patience for children; she has none. This relationship has been so natural -- yet all but impossible according to the social mores we might have let guide us over these past years.

In addition, as the kids grow up I am able to pursue the opportunities I'm best at and most passionate about.

Sep. 13 2012 12:20 PM
MichaelB from Morningside Heights

But it's not that simple.

Hence a question of what will be the highest percentage that the "stay-at-home dad" ever achieves? These discussions never own the obvious, that most mothers WANT to be the one staying home with the kids if a couple decides that one of them will.

Therefore, in those cases, it makes sense that women will want their men to make more money.

Sep. 13 2012 12:19 PM
Mike from NYC

Were does this woman get her information? Anecdotes about blue collar men? What were the statistical methods that ensured that the interviews she did are at all representative of the populations she claims to describe? Employers simply won't hire men who apply for "women's work." I've been there...and I have two masters degrees and years of experience. I have applied for jobs that were almost minimum wage and once the interviewer sees my gray hair, their eyes gloss over and I know they want to get me out so they can flirt with the next young woman or young man who is right behind me in the line.

Sep. 13 2012 12:17 PM
MichaelB from Morningside Heights

My comment about women's expectation was focused largely about the type of men women will date and marry.

Sep. 13 2012 12:15 PM
AMP from Brooklyn

It seems what is missing from your analysis is the subject of race and the intersection of race and class w/r/t changes in the economy (manufacturing vs. service or professional sector) since the 1960s. Does your book address this at all or does the book solely deal with gender w/r/t working class or middle class whites?

Sep. 13 2012 12:14 PM
MichaelB from Morningside Heights

... and what about the more subtle incentives for men not to change such as the fact that women still largely expect men to make at LEAST as much money as they, the women make (if not significantly more.) ("Subtle"?? Hmmmmm.)

They seem pretty "stuck" on that social convention....

Sep. 13 2012 12:13 PM
John A

I'm learning a lot about writing a bestseller from the Leonard Lopate show. It starts with finding a large group with a bias, then doing the research necessary so the group can further support their bias by buying your book.

Sep. 13 2012 12:12 PM
superf88

If the thesis is that women are becoming the new "men" in terms of work, because they have nowhere to go but up, then wouldn't it follow that, in the next generation, men will reverse that role, since they, in turn, have nothing to lose? (With women taking their turn the following generation?)

Sep. 13 2012 12:12 PM
MichaelB from Morningside Heights

3/4 of the jobs lost were lost by men. And yet, I was struck while watching one night of the Democratic Convention how the speakers kept emphasizing how hard this recession was on women. And more women's issues.

You'd never have known that men have borne the brunt of the latest downturn from that convention. (I don't recall the Republican's mentioning either gender.)

Sep. 13 2012 12:11 PM
MichaelB from Morningside Heights

If we only counted the number of segments on Brian & Leonard's shows over the past N months (as many years as you want to go back), the number geared towards "women's issues" vs "men's issues (can we even define those??) are overwhelmingly greater.

Men have become virtually invisible in the media, and of course, that's all that counts nowadays.

But there's a cost to society and specifically to women as well. I'll leave it to Ms. Rosin to perhaps illuminate the ways; I'm curious as to what she will emphasize.

Sep. 13 2012 12:05 PM
Ed from Larchmont

Nietzsche predicted the revenge of women toward the end of the 20th century. Dark prophet. But they've lost some things in the process, and now perhaps they are going too far.

Sep. 13 2012 05:55 AM

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