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Yemeni protesters gather around fire during a demonstration outside the U.S. embassy in Sanaa over a film mocking Islam.
Bobby Ghosh, Time Magazine editor-at-large, talks about his cover story "The Agents of Outrage", a look at the groups "manufacturing" outrage in the West and the Islamic world.
I always listen to your show and feel that you keep an even headed approach to the topics. This time you dropped the ball without even realizing it. Listen to your interview with Mr. Ghosh and you will notice how much of your coverage was about the Muslim’s reaction to the film instead of the people who made the film.
It seems like there is a small group of people, with very extreme views, and deep pockets that are certainly drowning out real issues, and again innocent people are dying.
Think about it, the bait worked perfectly, and just when the American public was seeing real democratic transformations in the Middle East we came right back to seeing the American flag being burned by the Arab "mob," "thugs" and "savages" that's filling the airwaves.
The real danger is the citizens of this country with extreme views that are bank rolling their views. Investigate and ask the right questions about who is behind the production of this film? And I'm not talking about the penniless producers and directors. The Muslims and the media took the bait, and the American public?
The Truth from Becky,
Excuse me if I don't buy into your brand of "Truth" and hate.
jg8912 - I find that peculiar because for hundreds of years - Muslim empires gave safe passage and lodging to Jews who were being chased out of "Christian" countries. Even in parts of Europe where there was Muslim rule - there was previous tolerance. What's going on now is all about the fight for Jerusalem... history and the bible should teach you that. It's the same as when the Crusaders attacked Jews and Muslims to gain ultimate control of Jerusalem. Muslims and Jews weren't "at war" until the 20th century when Jews started returning en masse from Europe. Middle Eastern Jews lived side by side with Muslims.As far as this movie - I'm not sure why this is so surprising. Any group that feels marginalized will act out. The Irish during the Draft Riots... African-Americans when Martin Luther King was assassinated. As far as "free speech". Well I grew up in a tough area... and we were told "if you open your mouth be prepared to get hit in your mouth"... meaning - you can offend someone verbally - but be prepared if they attack you physically. Does it make it right? No... but it's reality. To pretend otherwise is to be a fool. I live by what the epistles in the bible teach "as much as is in your power - be at peace with all men".
Perhaps Khadafi loyalists are behind the Libya attacks ?
They have the motive.
They also probably have the means - including a networkof well armed and trained people who bear a grudge,and perhaps inelligence on the location of the US bunker.
No doubt, they'd like nothing better than to create a riftbetween the new government of Libya and the US.
Has this been investigated?
Em said "They consider Jews and Christians to be fellow people of the book."
You are either in denial or dishonest. Islamic teachings call upon all Muslims to wage jihad against non-believers and subjugate them, to terrorize them, to humiliate them and to make them pay jizya. They also teach that Islam cannot co-exist with Kufr (non-belief).
Regarding offenses to other religions (on TV or in film), has there ever been anyone killed as a result of one of these? Do Christians storm compounds and fire RPG's when their religion is insulted?
@EDWARD -Feel free to add yourself to the list, you are certainly leading a particular group of hate mongers.
Edward from NJ
"There are groups of people here in the United States and abroad that manufacture outrage for their personal agendas and profits. They are hucksters selling hate. The point isn't that we should censor those people. It's that we shouldn't be taken in by them."
Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Rev. Wright, Charlie Barron, Louie Farraklan.
This is my last post. I think we on the liberal/left have an obligation to speak out more on the horrors of the Islamic world and not just try to understand "this other culture", it's a cop out. If every time there is going to be a ridiculous cartoon about Mohamad and then riots, and then we toil over the cartoons or some movie (there have been offensive movies and comedy about everyone). THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH US!
There are groups of people here in the United States and abroad that manufacture outrage for their personal agendas and profits. They are hucksters selling hate. The point isn't that we should censor those people. It's that we shouldn't be taken in by them.
"How many people have died (muslim and christian, overseas)in recent years as the result of perceived threats and/or insults to religion? I recall hundreds of people being killed in Kano, Nigeria some twenty or so years ago and there seem to have been many more instances since, in many countries. Can some investigative journalist do the math? Your guest, perhaps?"
Well, Bill from Little Neck, go pick up "God Is Not Great" by Chris Hitchens and you can read just a small sampling of the death and destruction in the name of religion (Islam, Christianity, you name it) over the millennia.
I am getting to the point where I think we new to pull out of all alliances in the Middle East. Let the crazy Jews and crazy Muslims Jill each other in the name of their gods. As long as we can buy oil, who cares?
Have you seen the uptick in stories about the fundamental Jews in Israel who are on the government dole to study the Bible? They are the equivalent of the Muslim Sharia fanatics. They assaulted a fellow Jewish girl in her way to school for not wearing a more conservative dress. Sound familiar? It's like Israel is training it's own version of the various Muslim extremists. As long as moderates in both sides (but moreso Muslims) stay silent about these fringes, a holy war will be upon us eventually.
Which is more offensive?
A stupid National Lampoon style movie, with dopey actors, edited with Apple iMovie, of a long dead figure...
or a nuremburg style speech infront of tens of thousands of people demanding death for the zionist entity, wiping it from the pages of history/time?
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "Death to Israel" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo
Your guest was misleading the audience when he said Moslems freely insult other religions. They consider Jews and Christians to be fellow people of the book. It is blasphemy in Islam to insult Moses or any of the Prophets, of which they include Jesus. It is true that extremists like The Taliban have destroyed Buddhist places, but you will note Egypt still retains it's ancient temples and diverse places of worship, as they do in Iran and did in Iraq before the war. I am not defending Moslems or any of the Abrahamic faiths, all of which I find equally hateful and offensive. However it seems that your guest is deliberately contributing to the murk surrounding this event. Even if this Coptic does admit to making the film, I would still be very dubious. History is littered with wanna-be martyrs.
I would like to bring up that Channel 4 UK, this past week removed a history documentary questioning the archaeological evidence for Islam. I found that quite intriguing. Maybe they did a little more research. I would point out that when similar documentaries were made regarding evidence for OT history, huge pressure was brought to bare on PBS and the BBC to remove the programmes. The inevitable compromise seems to be that these companies simply don't publicize the programmes, so although they put them out, very few people know about it. Again, a film called Agora was given an extremely limited release and very little advertising because of a preemptive strike by unnamed influential Jewish and Christian opponents who didn't like the theme. In these cases there was very little publicity given to this fact.
It was a lesson these groups learned after The Last Temptation of Christ: the organized protests only gave free publicity and increased the popularity of the film, so now their pressure is far more covert. If people are really concerned about the suppression of free speech in the West, they should pay more attention, it happens everyday, and hateful bigots come in all forms from illiterate Arab peasants to Wall St bankers. Personally, I know who worries me more.
Ed, are you criticizing me, or making some larger point?
Shaykh Aḥmad Sirhindī (d. 1624) was an Islamic scholar and a prominent Sufi. He wrote,“Shariat can be fostered through the sword.Kufr and Islam are opposed to each other. The progress of one is possible only at the expense of the other and co-existences between these two contradictory faiths in unthinkable.The honor of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects kafirs, dishonors the Muslims. To respect them does not merely mean honouring them and assigning them a seat of honor in any assembly, but it also implies keeping company with them or showing considerations to them. They should be kept at an arm's length like dogs. ...The real purpose in levying jizya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that, on account of fear of jizya, they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honor and might of Islam...
Whenever a Jew is killed, it is for the benefit of Islam”
—A. Sirhindi, Excerpted from Saiyid Athar Abbas Rizvi, Muslim Revivalist Movements in Northern India in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries (Agra, Lucknow: Agra University, Balkrishna Book Co., 1965), pp.247-50; and Yohanan Friedmann, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi: An Outline of His Thought and a Study of His Image in the Eyes of Posterity (Montreal, Quebec: McGill University, Institute of Islamic Studies, 1971), pp. 73-74."
The Quran is a piece of hate propaganda. Islam that non-believers must subjugated and submissive to Muslims. Non-believers should constantly be terrified and trembling. Jihad is an obligation of all Muslims until there remain only Muslims or people who submit to Islam. Co-existences between these Islam and other faiths is unthinkable.
Imam Al-Suyuti (c. 1445-1505 AD), a famous Egyptian writer, religious scholar, juristic expert and teacher wrote:“Fight those who don't believe in God...from among [for distinguishing] those who were given the Book [i.e., the Jews and Christians] unless they give the head-tax [i.e., the annual taxes imposed on them] (/'an yadin/) humbly submissive, and obedient to Islam's rule.”—Suyuti, Durr al-Manthur (Beirut Edition), vol. 3, p. 228
About Jihad, leader of the Afghan Jihad, Abdullah Yusuf Azzam wrote:“Jihad Against the Kuffar [infidels] is of two Types: Offensive Jihad (where the enemy is attacked in his own territory) ... [and] Defensive Jihad. This is expelling the Kuffar from our land, and it is Fard Ayn [personal religious obligation on Muslim individuals], a compulsory duty upon all ... ...Where the Kuffar are not gathering to fight the Muslims, the fighting becomes Fard Kifaya [religious obligation on Muslim society] with the minimum requirement of appointing believers to guard borders, and the sending of an army at least once a year to terrorise the enemies of Allah. It is a duty of the Imam (Caliph) to assemble and send out an army unit into the land of war once or twice every year. Moreover, it is the responsibility of the Muslim population to assist him... this type of jihad is for maintaining the payment of Jizya. The scholars of the principles of religion have also said: " Jihad is Daw'ah [Islamic preaching] with a force, and is obligatory to perform with all available capabilities, until there remains only Muslims or people who submit to Islam.”—A. Y. Azzam, Offensive Jihad Vs. Defensive Jihad
Sheldon from Brooklyn,
Here is a film.
Muslim Sesame Street V: Pepsi Cola, the Apes, Pigs and Jewshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8
Dehumanizing Jews? If Jews are not human, it's OK to kill animals.
A good way to gauge the civility of the Arab/Muslim world is to ask them to describe the 19 people who hijacked the passenger planes on 9/11.
Yes Truth, my dream world is called the USA, where free speech, as vile as it can be, is protected.
If this film had called for the killing of Jews, Blacks, Gays, or others, I would have agreed with you.
Under-reported: As many as 10 Libyan security guards were also killed in the attack at the U.S. embassy in Libya.
What about the actors in that film? Are they safe?
Where are "progressives" on this? Do we have Freedom of Speech in the US or must we censor ourselves and tread carefully due to the sensibilities of some mob?
What is it? The Law or Mob rule?
by the way your guest mentions that people of that reagion of the Middle East have not known the freedoms including speech etc of the US... and that the west doesn't understand how that can be. I beg to differ, the US fought a war over that.Not long ago or far away right in the heart of the west, where some of the greatest music and literature in history was created, there arose a dictator who slaughtered millions, forbid most freedoms including, speech, the press, and imposed horrific racial laws, the west has known. Look at Germany now, whatever problems it has, it has been transformed and I hope it will continue, we in the west have had our dark night but we have championed over it, Can the Muslim world follow suit?. think about it.
Jg, I have no problem with what you just said. I am talking about you saying that people being saved from being put into European death camps in Kosovo because of their religion, had "no benefit" ? What if I had said that in 1944 about the holocaust? And your comment about Einstein and the bomb? Not cool.
Please note that I regard this situation as a Set-Up. Someone, possibly even an Arab insider, has constructed this film to foment hate against (as reported originally) Jewish producers in Hollywood and probably all Americans with them. People who swallow the bait are in a sense victims of a fraud.
Romney is running for US President against the incompetent and ineffectual Obama - heir apparent to Jimmy Carter (Worst US President Ever).
Romney has the right to comment on these issues as does the NY Times, MSNBC, CNBC, CNN or Nicky from the UWS.
Not racist to defend yourself! I believe the US Embassy should defend itself and its inhabitants!!! Enough.
Nicky from UWS
"The US should get out of ALL these countries, and let these poor people work out their own problems without the US trying to shove its culture down their throats 24 hours a day"
Simple. Let those countries smash their Satellite TV's, Internet access, magazines. That's how to cut themselves off from Western culture.
Those people burning American flags should start burning their satellite dishes.
Sheldon from Brooklyn: You are living in a dream world. There are laws that punish people for inciting to riot over some sort of speech. You literally cannot yell fire in a crowded movie theater (without there being an actual fire) without being prosecuted. Free speech is one thing; causing injury, destruction and death by speech that was calculated to bring about such events is conspiracy and is punishable by law.
It appears, surreal as it sounds, that this film was deliberately designed to bring about the results that it did. It's like standing in a prison in front of violent felons, hurling insults at their mothers and sisters and pleading that you did not know they'd jump on you and beat you to within an inch of your life. The film was meant to provoke, the trailer was released in a forum consisting of Muslims whose faith and prophet were being insulted and there is no question that it was more than mere free speech.
Perhaps the failure to adequately protect the embassy in Libya reflects the the West's too often naive and simplistic "Third World" understanding.
Romney was clearly in over his head. Luckily for him the complaints from the right about liberal bias is keeping the media from holding him more accountable.
I call it THE TRUTH, but you can call it whatever you want, racist or whatever. The truth is what it is. Islam burst out of the sandbox of Arabia with the singular purpose of Islamizing the world by whatever means necessary. If that is racist, so be it. There are no problems coming from Christian Arabs as far as I know. Race has nothing to do with it. It is the theology of conquest and hate that does.
How many people have died (muslim and christian, overseas)in recent years as the result of perceived threats and/or insults to religion? I recall hundreds of people being killed in Kano, Nigeria some twenty or so years ago and there seem to have been many more instances since, in many countries. Can some investigative journalist do the math? Your guest, perhaps?
This is not only a free speech issue, it is an obvious attempt to manipulate the US political system in an election year. It also coincides with the Netanyahu move manipulate the American government and political process,in order to force the US acquiescence if not actual participation in a war in Iran. There doesn't need to be a "conspiracy" when everyone who pays attention can see that there is a right wing in both the USA and Israel that believes it will help them obtain and keep power if they can cause problems for the Democratic legislators and the president in the next election.
Up next, fashion week. Wow, talk about "from the sublime to the ridiculous"
Is your guest suggesting that the attacks were justified? Is he suggesting that criticizing Islam should be illegal? Is he suggesting we implement Shariah law in the US?
jg - Some of the things you have been saying the last two days, if it were someone else, I would consider them borderline racist, anti-Semitic and dangerous. What is going on with you?
What does your guest suggest? That we restrict free speech based on Shariah's prohibitions?
Just read "Jefferson's War: America's First War on Terror 1801-1805" by James Wheeler to find out why Thomas Jefferson realized he had no choice but to go to war against the Muslim pirate states of North Africa AFTER reading the Quran. There was no Israel and no Jewish lobby in 1801. There were no movies being made insulting the Arab prophet. And yet, American ships and American sailors were being taken hostage and being enslaved for no other reason than it is the duty of Muslims to subjugate non-Muslims and force then to either submit or pay tribute.
Haha - gotta love the hate Islam/Arab commentary from a lot of Lehrer's listeners. Racists all. Luckily, stewing in their hatred has been shown to be detrimental to one's health.
More apologetics. Your caller wants to change the law so that no one can say anything negative about Islam. How about we implement a blasphemy law like they have in Pakistan. Death to anyone who blasphemes the so-called prophet.
When you can't feed your mostly uneducated people, you distract them with religious mush.
Truth & Beauty - what you are saying is dangerous.
Brian,Can YOU ever really stand up against the sheer violence and insanity of the Islamic world or you just have to be relative all the time? Have some balls Brian. Can't you really challenge any of your guests on this subjects? What if someone made a mainstream movie about an American spy or something challenging Islamic politics and extremists? Would the world come to and end? Do you understand how this silences people? Speak out!
Note that Bacile filed a translation of his trailer to arabic 9 days ago, just before the protests happened. Why would an anti-Muhammad film do that except to deliberately promote hate.
What benefit does the US get out of dying to save Muslims, in Kuwait, Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.? To find out what benefit the US gets from Israel, ask the CEOs of Intel, Microsoft, IBM, and a slew of others who maintain and continue to invest in R&D in Israel, second only to the US itself!
I think the motivation is clear - I am for lawful protest but I can't get behind the attack on the US Embassy.
Someone needs to create the equivalent of snopes.com in Arabic.
Thanks to the insatiable addiction to oil that started around WWI, the Muslim population of the Middle East increased 15-fold. While the US population grew little over three fold from 1918, around 90 million to 310 million today, the Arab population in the ME grew from 22 million to well over 350 million today, thanks to western money and medicine and technology.
The Arabs owe America and the West a great debt of gratitude, but instead all we ever get, and will ever get, is violence from that crew.
If the Arab masses are jobless, it is not the fault of the West. The West transferred trillions to the Middle East in exchange for black goo that we pulled out of the ground FOR them. It's their incompetency and hatred, not ours. I say the US needs no diplomatic relations with the majority of Muslim nations, only to buy oil if they are willing to sell. And they can buy our food if they are willing to buy. Israel is the only democratic ally we need in that part of the world. The Muslim peoples will never be America's true friends unless we (1) destroy Israel; (2) convert to Islam; (3)replace the Stars and Stripes with the black banner of Islam on the top of the White House.
Apologetics for more islamic violence? Why doesn't anyone state the obvious. Islam is a religion that promotes hate, intolerance and violence. Radical Muslims carry out the attacks. Moderate Muslims offer justifications for for them. They are complicit.
When your guest described the middle eastern media service. It sounded a lot like fox news.
Sounds like the so-called director of the movie is taking the identity of any group harmed by Muslims. Started as an Israeli, an America, now Kopti, what next Hindu in India, and later the director will be a women prohibited from going to school in Iran.
I agree with Ghosh, except that the identity of the filmmaker doesn't matter -- we have to look at the motivation. Consider the impact of the resulting protests, particularly in Egypt, which basically undermine the FJP-led government and have caused this push in our House of Reps to remove all aid from Egypt in the CR (as mentioned in the prev segment). What better way to cause the fall of the govt. by showing that the military / Mobarak regime was better for the country (better security, more stability, etc.). And with some idiotic Imams playing this up in Egypt, the outcome is foregone.
I researched this myself too yesterday. It was fun playing Internet cop. I would bet some money that the name "Sam Bacile" was chosen as an insult, as in you Americans are _imbeciles_. It would be interesting to hear the reportage from those actors involved.
This film is the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded movie theater. As its distribution resulted in death and destruction, the producers, director, writer, etc., need to be prosecuted to the full extent of US and International law. This whole incident is outrageous.
How and why do we continue to let these tails wag our dog? The dumbest once again get the most attention and force our hand upon ourselves. ugh!
Sounds like an inside job - put up an inflammatory film that you know will stir up "outrage", get some anti US and anti Israel juices (and violence flowing), somehow get an Iran tie in, and voila, you have your Iran war pretext lickety split. Ho hum.
war without end
Paul Ryan's imperialistic statement turns my stomach. The US should get out of ALL these countries, and let these poor people work out their own problems without the US trying to shove its culture down their throats 24 hours a day. If we had armed Libyan or Egyptian or Iraqui or Afghan troops wandering around our cities and towns all day we would start to get violent too.
@John from office: that's exactly right. People who are moderately happy and feel they have even a moderate amount of power over their own lives pretty much never do those kinds of things. Vast, oppressed, dirt poor populations, brainwashed by religion, are always a powder keg. Unfortunately they are rioting against the wrong thing.
Check out "Romney Jumps the Shark: Libya, Egypt and the Butterfly Effect"....very interesting.
Brian, please ask your guest if part of the problem is an Idle population?? There seem to be alot of people with alot of free time to get outraged?? If there were jobs and growth there would be less outrage.??
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