Streams

Oslo Attacks

Monday, July 25, 2011

Heidi Beirich, director of research at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and New York Times reporter, Scott Shane, walk us through items from the Oslo suspect's manifesto - specifically the references to American bloggers and writers who have warned about the threat from Islam for years now.

Guests:

Heidi Beirich and Scott Shane

Comments [34]

A woman called-in during this segment and confronted the guest from the Southern Poverty Law Center, charging them of hypocrisy in only condeming hate from the _right_ , while ignoring hate from the _left_. The caller specifically accused the SPLC, along with others on the left and in the media, of portraying Jared Lee Loughner as a _right-wing_ extremist, ignoring evidence of _left_-wing and _Democratic_ affiliations he had, such as posts he allegedly had made to the web sites Daily Kos and MoveOn.org. (Loughner is the accused perpetrator of the January, 2011 Tucson massacre that claimed the lives of six people and left Congressman Gabrielle Giffords in critical condition.)

Mr. Lehrer did not press the guest, Ms. Beirich, to actually answer the specific charges leveled by the caller. If anything, Mr. Lehrer actually _facilitated_ the guest's dodging and glossing over of the charges. Ms. Beirich's reply to the caller was simply,

"Well, in the case of Jared Lee Loughner, we obviously view it differently."

Jun. 10 2013 09:20 PM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

rose-ellen, I ask you a second time.

If you knew of a terrorist plot, a plot to murder people in the US, would you

A) notify the authorities
B) do nothing
C) aid the terrorists?

rose-ellen, whose side are you on?

Jul. 27 2011 07:52 AM

@EM Jul. 25 2011 10:39 AM

Good point.
_____________
"The horrific event (and ensuing religious conversations) are more evidence that humanity would be better off if we could find a way to evolve beyond all religious doctrine."

- Jim, Jul. 25 2011 10:43 AM

What makes you so sure?

How much of a role did religion play in, say, the crimes against humanity perpetrated by Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pott?

How many violent conflicts today are fueled primarily by nationalistic pride, vengenance, "honor", disputes over land, etc., etc.?

Jul. 26 2011 06:17 PM
rose-ellen from jackson hts

How thin skinned you get when any one criticizes the USs' policies or narrative.Considering your hateful narrative abous muslim arabs ,it's like you can dish it out but never expect to take it.Like your smugness in believing your government could act in the world with impunity ,till alquada ushered in the new millenium;[the age of the people,all people,not regimes,not military powers not even nation states but indigenous people where they find themselves rising up for their own interests against these forces which were part of the paradigmn of the previous millenium but are no longer meaningful.] As the mediterranean people say; the fish stinks from the head.

Jul. 26 2011 10:42 AM
rose-ellen from jackson hts.

Wishing is not a crime.I wish that we would help the syrians topple their dictator and the same in libya for that matter.When people rise up to overthrow brutal regimes then yes, we have an obligation to help them.especially after invading 2 countries on the grounds they were oppressing their people[though the iraqis and afghans never asked to over throw their regimes]To sit back and watch syrians and libyans get murdered and do nothing after we invaded iraq and afghanistan in the name of 'freedom'.[a lie of course-it was about reasserting our dominance after alqquada gave us blowback for our policies;propping up brutal dictators for cold war and cheap oil and military bases purposes - which led to the deaths of millions of arabs[any disenters to those regimes were tortured imprisoned and or murdered].And because we wanted a military base after alquada made having one in saudi arabia a problem. Iraq not being a fundamentalist nation was, we believed, more amenable to us having a base and also has oil and as those fundamentalists saudi muslims were getting uppity and resisting our meddling in their holy lands.[alquada], iraq ,we believed ,as a more secular culture could provide a safe substitute to those fundamentalists uppity saudi muslims causing blowback for us for supporting the corrupt royal government in exchange for cheap below market oil prices and military bases.Of course we under estimated peoples' reluctance to accept shock and awe and occupation no matter what words are used to legitimize it [freedom ,democracy etc].I do believe if the iranian people rise up against their tyranical regime then yes we are right to help them topple a mass murdering regime.
And remember believing that the state of israel is illigitimate is not the same as believing that all israelis should be killed or even that israel as a state should cease to exist.We believe the cuban state is illigitimate, we believed that the USSR was illigitimate. That is a moral perspective and people have the right to it.Even Hamas has said [on a Charlie rose program] that a 67 border Israel would make the "illigitimacy" of the creation of the state of israel a moot point.Of course they reseve the right to forever believe that the creation of that state was illigimate[ethically] and to keep that as part of their historical narrative.To demand that they don't is tyranical and reveals that the impediment to peace is pride on the part of the israeli state[no one has the right to believe that the creation of israel was anything but a noble,heroic, and just event].To refuse to have talks with people who believe the oppossite is to allow pride about the historical narrative of israel to supercede peace on the ground.This conflict is about honor [funny how the arabs are accused of being obsessed with issues of honor]and not territory.

[continues]

Jul. 26 2011 10:24 AM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretenious Hudson Heights

rose-ellen, If you hate the US so much, why do you torture yourself? LEAVE.

And which democratic country will you make your new permanent home? Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia?

rose-ellen, If you knew of a terrorist plot, a plot to murder people in the US, would you notify the authorities or do nothing or aid the terrorists?

rose-ellen, whose side are you on?

Is it okay if I wish for the Islamic Regime of Iran wants for America and Israel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo&feature=related

The above link is a video of a rally in the Islamist regime.

Jul. 26 2011 01:59 AM
yawn

boards taken over by nutjobs, congrats.

Jul. 25 2011 08:50 PM
Studs Dupa from Cesspool (AKA AmeriKa)

Hi,

You new york liberals are constantly attacking Christians on a regular basis. The (S)hit Broadway play The Book of Mormon is an example of an attack by liberals on a segment of the Christian faith. You cowardly new york liberals would never attack islam the way you attack Christians.

Love,

Studs

Jul. 25 2011 07:24 PM
rose-ellen from jackson hts.

Nothing satisfies you muslim bigots.If they call and denoince violence then you either twist everything they say around or demand more, saying where are the prominent muslims? There are no prominent muslims in america because they arn't politically empowered here.There arn't that many of them and they have not been here that long. You just want your pound of flesh always bullying them and making demands. And they are as free as you and until you declare a war on islam or ban muslims in this country ,they have nothing to explain,nothing to apologize for and nothing to say to people who dehumanize them and demonize them at every turn. They go about their business and if you lay a hand on one you will be hit with a hate crime.Your taunts in the media reveal your malice and is your problem ,not theirs.And regarding the use of violence for political ends;we kill civilians and always have when it is in our interests to do so.Our anger toward muslims stems more from the fact that for the first time in our history it was muslims who took us to the knowledge that there were consequences to US for our policies toward ThEM [proxy dictators, military bases in their holylands, cold war interests where our proxy dictators murdered all leftists and fundamentalists which benefitted us but hurt the people,one sided support of illigal israeli territory aquired through 67war and occupation etc.]They upset our political apple cart where we could act in the world with impunity .that is the source of our anger though we mask it as abhorence at the murder of civilians.When in reality it was the abhorence of the murder of OUR civilians as we have always murdered civilians and continue to do so in our current invasions and occupations and in our support of israeli bombing of civilians They upset the balance of terror and in our hubris we never anticipated it could happen.We are now fighting the civilians of afghanistan and iraq and pakistan and yemen,as we invaded them they have the right to resist. We are the tyrants ; first as meddlers in the homelands via colonialism and then proxy dictators and artifical political divisions which benefitted the west but not them and caused tensions among the 3 religions and now as invader and occupyers.And at home you want to make them jump through your hopes austensibly to satisfy your suspisions.[really to harrass and bully people you hate].That's your problem as they correctly go about as free people entitled to think and believe what ever they want!.This terrorist wanted a muslim frei europe and he learned that from the genocidal anti muslim media campaign he got through various outlets [genocidal hatred always starts with the media].

Jul. 25 2011 06:07 PM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

Elizabeth,

Israel is a territory dispute.
Kashmir is a territory dispute, which nearly erupted into a nuclear war - both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons.

There are many territory disputes. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes

BTW Elizabeth, if you are against occupation, unless you are a Native American, what are you doing in North America?

Jul. 25 2011 12:14 PM

The violence in the Mid East is a clear territory dispute. The Israeli encroachment on areas of Palestine violates UN Resolutions. "After a period of high tension between Israel and its neighbors, the war began on June 5 with Israel launching surprise air strikes against Arab forces. The outcome was a swift and decisive Israeli victory. Israel took effective control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Opinions are divided on whether Israel's attack was an act of aggression or a preemptive strike of a defensive nature.

The status of the territories captured by Israel during the war and the concurrent refugee problem are central concerns in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, raising issues in international law, and having far-reaching consequences in global affairs." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

I think Rose Ellen put it well when she wrote: "The anti-semitism of the 21st century is anti muslim[arab].The dehumanizing of them all over the media and even the use of the term "terroist" which [unlike any other and all other crimes and or conflicts] excludes any human consideration of those acts of violence,is part of this anti -muslim genocidal propaganda campaign. That the media is now lowed keyed in how this "terrorist" act is being portrayed and so far down plays his virulent anti -muslim bigotry is symptomatic of this targeting of muslims for dehumanizing genocidal propaganda."

Jul. 25 2011 11:54 AM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

Elizabeth said:

"The racism in Europe against muslims is reminiscent of Nazism. The violence reflects fear and cowardliness."

I see it as:

The racism in the Middle East by muslims against jews is reminiscent of Nazism. The violence reflects fear and cowardliness.

Jul. 25 2011 11:33 AM

We're getting off topic here but the Mumbai Massacre, (the most obvious example), was committed over long held territory dispute.

Jul. 25 2011 11:28 AM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

Firstly the "Christian" Norwegian shooter murdered 90+ Chrisitian Norwegians, not Muslim Norwegians.

I've seen enough racist crap on the Internet, writings where national Socialists claim connections to their pagan past, their admiration of their "god" odin and other naturist cults. Calling the Norwegian shooter a Christian is a bit disingenuous.

When it comes to massacres committed in name of a religion, a 5 minute search of the Internet will show that memebers of a particular religion are overwhelmingly the perpetrators.

For example, Fort Hood, Mumbai, Washington Beltway sniper, London, Beslan, Madrid, Pan Am 103.

I remember hearing a recording on the Pacifica FM radio outlet in NYC, a recording of a rally of the NOI, a rally held in the aftermath of the Long Island Rail Road shooting by Colin Furgesson, a cheer by the assembly when the bowtied one referred to the shooting. It should not be swept under the rug that Malcom X who shot him.

Jul. 25 2011 11:02 AM
Abigail from long island

The last two calls -- the woman responding to headlines citing "Christian Etremism" by saying "This is not Christianity!" and then the next muslim caller responding to cries of Muslim Extremism by saying "This is not Islam"! Most Christians and most Muslims are peaceful people, why are we talking religion here, shouldn't we be trying to figure out what is causing this cultural ill? Wouldn't it be better to not use the vernacular of the mentally ill person doing the attack, and try to figure it out from a broader, rational perspective?

Jul. 25 2011 11:01 AM
Raechel from Basking Ridge, NJ

Could we just talk about the core issue that underlies this discussion which is fear? When people are afraid and do not know how to open their hearts to love, which is the antidote to fear, they look for someone or something to blame for their fear. This has been going on since the beginning of time. Everytime there is a horrendous crime like the one in Oslo, which was motivated by fear, our fears get ignited. Then we try to blame someone. So Islam is now the target of our fear, instead of fundamentalism and radical beliefs of any kind. In this country Islam is the current religion to blame. When I was growing up, in the religion I was raised in, Catholicism was the fered religion.

Jul. 25 2011 10:57 AM
Lariti from Westchester

Re: the woman who commented on grammar; Brian then commented "Me and everyone else thanks you for your grammar." Should be "I and everyone else.."

Normally Brian doesn't make such errors, so maybe it was tongue in cheek!

Jul. 25 2011 10:57 AM

I agree with Jim, that the world would be better without religion. At the same time, religion unfairly bears the burden of guilt for wars/violence. Violence is commited "in the name of religion" even though underlying reasons are different. Wars were fought by cavemen over territory, resources and/or inherent fear of those who are different in appearance. It is, unfortunately, in the DNA of people, (and animals), to fight. That's not to say we can not evolve and over come instinct by employing consciousness. People will become more civilized if we're not destroyed by nukes first.

Jul. 25 2011 10:56 AM
William from Manhattan

Until the 18th century, Europe referred to itself as Christendom. From a modern American perspective, the interrelationship of religious and national identity may seem alien, but for more than a millenium the borders of what we think of as Europe were determined more by where Christianity held sway than by anything geographical.
With the Reformation, many of the existing national borders within Europe were determined by divisions between Protestants and Catholics.
These modes of self-definition may lie dormant, but they don't die. However lamentable, it shouldn't be a surprise that there are violent reactions when national identities are challenged by large-scale immigration of peoples with different faiths.

Jul. 25 2011 10:54 AM
EJ from Brooklyn, NY

When will fundamentalist fascists realize they are all the same hateful, killers -- regardless of being Christian or Muslim fundamentalists?

When a mindset is adopted by a group of people where they decide they have the ONLY truth and every group who doesn't accept their truth is WRONG -- and they are willing to kill and die in order to proselytize their "ONLY I'M CORRECT" world view they are TERRORISTS. Historically right wing, xenophobic philosophies appear to more eagerly embrace these tactics.

I grew up during the leftist political bombings of the 60s and 70s -- but since then if there is ideologue with a bomb, plane filled with jet fuel, etc they are right wing zealots.

Jul. 25 2011 10:51 AM
rose-ellen from jackson hts.

The anti-semitism of the 21st century is anti muslim[arab].The dehumanizing of them all over the media and even the use of the term "terroist" which [unlike any other and all other crimes and or conflicts] excludes any human consideration of those acts of violence,is part of this anti -muslim genocidal propaganda campaign. That the media is now lowed keyed in how this "terrorist" act is being portrayed and so far down plays his virulent anti -muslim bigotry is symptomatic of this targeting of muslims for dehumanizing genocidal propaganda[They're the real terrorists no matter how political this anti-muslim terrorist claims to be or how violent the act].It's not about acts of violence and our abhorance of violence-as even our violence over seas reveals and how quick the media was to not dwell on this terrorist act once it was determined it wasn'ty done by muslims- but about an anti-semitic[against muslims this time] propaganda campaign.This time it came back to seep into unintended victims;non muslim children being hunted like rabbits[run rabbit run] by a Fox- and- tea- partyer -and- european- anti -muslim- media - indoctrinated 21st century anti -semite, [against muslims this time]

Jul. 25 2011 10:51 AM
ahmed from NYC

This has nothing to do with Islam in Norway. This is a view of National Front which very strong in Norway

Jul. 25 2011 10:49 AM
jgarbuz from Queens

Was the Norwegian killer screaming "Jesus is Great" or "Yahweh is great" while he was mowing down all those young people?

Jul. 25 2011 10:49 AM
David in Fredericksburg, VA from Fredericksburg, VA

RE: Dozens of Muslims call in to condemn terrorist attacks & then people say where are the moderates. I have no doubt that there are many moderates in this country - but we don't hear from PROMINENT muslims - that is what people are talking about.

Jul. 25 2011 10:49 AM
Cynthia from Brooklyn NY

Let's see how many fundamentalist Christian organizations denounce this horror.

Jul. 25 2011 10:49 AM
michael from greenpoint, brooklyn

oh my goodness angry old woman who called in. it's obvious even in your tone of voice that ideas like yours spread hate.

Jul. 25 2011 10:46 AM
Jim

The horrific event (and ensuing religious conversations) are more evidence that humanity would be better off if we could find a way to evolve beyond all religious doctrine.

Jul. 25 2011 10:43 AM
Yan from Upper West Side

In any comparison between immigration in the US and Europe it is important to note that both societies are very different in how different groups are integrated with one another: in the US, work functions as a great mixing chamber. In distributionist Europe, large safety nets and benefits of all kinds attract a certain kind of immigrants, and at the same time allow both communities to live next to each other, both receiving their respective benefits. Or how a socialist ideal of sharing fosters suspicion and envy.

Jul. 25 2011 10:42 AM
jgarbuz from Queens

You can be against abortion without blowing up abortion clinics, and most who resist Islamization are not thinking of using violence either. But here and there, there unfortunately will arise some unstable individuals who go off the rails.

Jul. 25 2011 10:42 AM

Pam Geller and her ilk are clownshoes. Please don't give them any credibility.

Jul. 25 2011 10:41 AM

The racism in Europe against muslims is reminiscent of Nazism. The violence reflects fear and cowardliness.

Jul. 25 2011 10:40 AM
Em

Extremism only seems more advanced in Europe because European states have more representative democratic systems than the US or Britain. You would see much more institutional representation for these extreme views if the electoral system in this country were more representative. It's easy to be complacent here, but don't kid yourselves.

Jul. 25 2011 10:39 AM
Patty Watwood from Brooklyn.

I am a bit alarmed. I know this segment on the Oslo attacks is trying to unpack a complex issue---
But would we be having this conversation if Brievik had not made this heinous act of terrorism? Isn't this in a weird way showing that terrorism works-- in shaping the public conversation? In bringing attention to Breiviks' issues?
Confused,
in Brooklyn

Jul. 25 2011 10:38 AM
David in Fredericksburg, VA from Fredericksburg, VA

I'll tell you one thing - if this nut job tried his "hunting" in Virginia he'd be a corpse. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about people walking around armed, but this is an example where I would surely like to be armed.

Jul. 25 2011 10:34 AM

Leave a Comment

Email addresses are required but never displayed.

The Morning Brief

Enter your email address and we’ll send you our top 5 stories every day, plus breaking news and weather.