Streams

Won't Grow Up

Tuesday, March 15, 2011

Kay Hymowitz, a fellow at the Manhattan Institute, contributing editor of City Journal and the author of Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys, talks about her new book. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?pagewanted=print
and here's one from NPR
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129584041

Links to reports on studies cited in the interview:

"For Young Earners in Big City, a Gap in Women’s Favor" NYT, 8/3/2001

"Women's Salaries Back On Top For Younger Set" NPR, 9/1/2010

Guests:

Kay Hymowitz

Comments [49]

John A. from Westchester

Just 24 hours later, Brian's show has an author on (male), whose book describes how Toy commercials and "Back to the Future" can be used to describe US-World politics. Won't Grow Up. Okay. Proved.

Mar. 16 2011 11:54 AM
Louis from Bayside

Kay's thesis is so riddled with problems, one only need poke it for it to fall apart. There are reasons other than partying or not wanting to commit for not wanting to settle down and have a family. It is certainly not because women make more money!

Some men choose vocations in their early 20's/30's where starting a family isn't feasible financially, others choose to remain single because life has become more difficult and the family does not provide the support and stability it once did (with both people in a relationship at work, house work and raising a child is simply overwhelming -- and no I am not saying it should be women to stay at home -- house husband sounds fine to me).

Mar. 15 2011 06:16 PM
Nicole from NYC

We were told that a link to this "study" that says women make more than men was going to be posted? I am eager to see this. Is this a simple average of all persons of a certain age? Does it include work experience and education level? We know that more women are finishing college, that more men are unemployed right now and that many 20-something women are doing backflips through their careers to try and gain an edge they expect to lose when it comes time for kids.

The income/earnings facts Hymowitz cites desperately need clairfication. I'd be willing to venture that in ANY comparison of individuals in the same career with the same experience and education, the man gets paid more, every time. But I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

Mar. 15 2011 04:30 PM
P. Alan

This is the wrong link. It links to the previous story on nuclear power/risk.

Mar. 15 2011 12:35 PM
DarkSymbolist from NYC!

@ Estelle,

"Now we expect our working lives to be a roller coaster of constant change; perhaps this has contributed to a general sense that stability and permanence are farther in the future, or even possibly unattainable."

I couldn't agree more...that is certainly how I feel.

Mar. 15 2011 12:14 PM
Brian from Hoboken

The guest said or did nothing to prove a link between women's career/life attainment and men's behavior. There is no connection. Why would I act lime a jackass because women are making more money? There is absolutely no correlation. Warning: generalizations coming! men have pretty much always lagged women in maturity and starting their family life. Evolution? Men spread seed and women feel the clock ticking away? Who knows? But I bet most
Marriages where one spouse is older generally have the male spouse older than the female. So what? There still is no connection between the two ideas of women's attainment and men's behavior. This book and guest is a joke. Whether I agree or disagree with a guest or theory is not the issue- she brings nothing to the table to even start a healthy debate.

Mar. 15 2011 12:11 PM
DarkSymbolist from NYC!

Not sure what "men acting like men", "women acting like men" or "acting like men" means anyway.

And "manning up" is definitely a stupid, sexist terms that demeans both genders really

Mar. 15 2011 12:11 PM
Estelle from Austin

She is WAY oversimplifying things.
Seen from another perspective, women are finding life partners later because we see the pressure in our careers to stay single and childless. Even if it's just because of the subtle observation that our male counterparts get an advantage.
Or, you could say that the vocational landscape is the reason why marriage is postponed. Forty years ago, stability was perceived as easily achievable with a lifetime job and a pension; just be a good worker, and you're set. Now we expect our working lives to be a roller coaster of constant change; perhaps this has contributed to a general sense that stability and permanence are farther in the future, or even possibly unattainable.

Mar. 15 2011 12:08 PM
DarkSymbolist from NYC!

There are too many problems with this woman's theories to list.

I will say that I'm not sure why she is blaming the attitude toward marriage on "immature" men when i've heard on NPR many times that in general there has been an increase in a certain percentage among people in their 20's and 30's toward marriage as being "antiquated" and "old-fashioned" and/or unnecessary. In none of those segments was that described as JUST an attitude held by males.

Mar. 15 2011 12:06 PM
Gloria

There are time when women do need to consider giving up particular kinds of privileges if our demands for gender justice are to be taken seriously. Why do men alone register for the draft and, in many hetero-partnerships, are expected to purchase diamond engagement rings?

We live in a society with lot of sexism and domination which impact women. But the role of men needs to be looked as well - and far beyond the kind of slackerdom that Hymowitz describes.

Mar. 15 2011 12:05 PM
Gloria


I look forward to seeing the income data that the author makes available. What the report by the commission on the status of women found was that despite educational parity, or places where more women than men are in college, men still earn more. Check out the education and income graphs here in the interactive area of the argument. Data where women have economic parity are significantly limited by profession and age.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703749504576172700990018240.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_3#project%3DWOMEN1102%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive

Mar. 15 2011 12:00 PM
Patricia from FH

to the female caller (the one right before Phil) - LISTEN to what the Ms. Hymowitz is saying. The only thing this caller proved is that she wasn't listening....Ms. Hymowitz isn't saying all women are making more money than men in general.

Mar. 15 2011 11:59 AM
Brendan

I like how her book title steals from the tagline for a popular beer brand.

Mar. 15 2011 11:59 AM
Jenny

My husband never had a problem with the fact I earned more, even when we were dating. In fact, he seemed to enjoy it. (We're in our forties, married in our thirties; he's four years older.) I'm college educated, he's blue-collar, no college and though I do earn more, he would always pay for things when we were dating.

Mar. 15 2011 11:59 AM
Burtnor from Manhattan

This is such an old story. I graduated from college in 1968 and people then were complaining about the effect of women's new earning power on definitions of masculinity, men's fragile egos, and the prolongation of male adolescence. And, as some have pointed out here, adolescent males abound in all age groups.

Mar. 15 2011 11:58 AM
Jonathan from NYC

Previously in another article she had railed against men having hobbies and interests such as Star Wars. It seems she is making a subjective attack based on her own beliefs of what a man should act like. Like the girl in the city surrounded by men and claiming not a single one is worthy.

Mar. 15 2011 11:58 AM
Nikole from Manhattan

As a 20 something, working professional single female, my experience lends some validity to her findings - it is increasingly difficult to find men my age who have the same goals and/or timeline in mind for their personal lives.

Mar. 15 2011 11:58 AM
long island from long island

Kay describes all the young men my 25-year-old daughter (a CPA at a major bank) has been dating. From what she tells me, they are far more immature than the guys when I was dating. I cannot believe the stories she tells me, but now I can better understand.

Mar. 15 2011 11:57 AM
Truth & Beauty from Brooklyn

Much as I hate to say it, men tend to mature later than women anyway. This is NOT new.

When I was younger, I used to date men who were much older than I because of the maturity lag - about 15 years.

I am now married to a younger man, but that's another story.

Another consideration is that women have to be as careful as men in weeding out golddiggers. Women who make more money than men don't want men who are going for the money and planning to remain in their state of arrested development forever. In addition, there is always the notion that a woman's higher income or earning potential can easily emasculate many men. It's important to find equality in earnings for those reasons.

Mar. 15 2011 11:56 AM
Burtnor from Manhattan

This is such an old story. I graduated from college in 1968 and people then were complaining about the effect of women's new earning power on definitions of masculinity, men's fragile egos, and the prolongation of male adolescence. And, as some have pointed out here, adolescent males abound in all age groups.

Mar. 15 2011 11:56 AM
The Truth from Becky

Women who behave like men will never find one.

PS: she is NOTSPEAKING FOR ME!

Mar. 15 2011 11:56 AM
Matt

The 2 things that come to mind are Maureen Dowd attacking Al Gore for being effeminate & the recent Senate race with Harry Reid.

What's behind all the attacks on masculinity? It only seems to make sex more of an issue in politics.

Mar. 15 2011 11:55 AM
Leah from Brooklyn

"I didn't mean or even anticipate the thing that my subtitle blatantly suggests. I just tagged that on there to get more spots on my book tour. My next book is called 'It IS Your Fault: Why Children Tend to Trigger Divorce,' but it's really all about how children should be shielded from parents' conflicts." Eye roll.

Her gender binary is so wildly outdated. "Know how to act like a man?" Really?

Mar. 15 2011 11:55 AM
long island from long island

Kay describes all the young men my 25-year-old daughter (a CPA at a major bank) has been dating. From what she tells me, they are far more immature than the guys when I was dating. I cannot believe the stories she tells me, but now I can better understand.

Mar. 15 2011 11:55 AM
Amy

I don't like this term "pre-adulthood". Why is it that before having children you are not considered to be an adult? I live with my boyfriend and we are not having kids yet because we are waiting untill we make more money and have more job security. I think this is a pretty mature "adult" choice.

Mar. 15 2011 11:55 AM

I agree with Leah. This is obtuse pop sociology and I am getting stupider listening to this. Oh, and I'm male.

Mar. 15 2011 11:55 AM
Andy from Brooklyn

Hey, I want paternity leave!!! I think that would change this a LOT.

Mar. 15 2011 11:55 AM
The Truth from Becky

This is the voice of powerless and suppressed white women. Does not apply to all women or all races.

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM
Bob from Avon-by-the-Sea, NJ

Didn't Robert Bly deal with this same topic with his men's movement and his book "Iron John"? It has to do with a society that prizes youth so people want to stay young and there are no obvious benefits to growing up and gaining sophistication.

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM
Ally from Chelsea

I have to wonder, what about LGBT individuals? Do they apply here at all? Are gay men affected in the same way by this phenomenon? Many lesbian women are not interested in children--are they contributing to this?

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM

NO it's not another book. We have enough of this drivel as it is.

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM
Kathy

Are mothers to blame for raising such winnies?

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM
Tessa from Mamaroneck, NY

I just finished college and I'm now an associate editor at a media magazine. My boyfriend is just as successful and younger than me. When we go out to dinner he might pay for the meal and I get the movie tickets and snacks. We share the responsibility. He said to me, "But I'm the man." My response? "Well, love, I'm the modern woman."

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM
Mau from Astoria

Maybe women are acting more like men, leaving men uninterested.

Mar. 15 2011 11:54 AM
David Bradford from New York City.

I prolonged my adolescence as long as possible. I knew that someday I would make a pile of money and have kids. So, I enjoyed my twenties and early thirties. I eventually started a business, got married and had kids. I'm in my 40s now and regret nothing. I did an inverse retirement; enjoying my life when I was young and healthy and now will work until I die.

Mar. 15 2011 11:53 AM
Kathy

Are mothers to blame for raising such sissies?

Mar. 15 2011 11:53 AM

She's saying men between the ages of college and mid-30's are immature. Lady, you should meet some of the 50+ guys I know - ridiculously immature. At least when a guy is 25-30 he can still be considered 'boyish' and get away with some immaturity. A 55 year old man who behaves like a teenager (especially emotionally) is a complete turn-off. There immaturity has nothing to do with women. It has to do with THEM.

Mar. 15 2011 11:53 AM
Anon from BKLYN

Please................ this isn't a provocative book. Its a sad attempt to be provocative. Imagine if men tried to define women in the ways Ms. Hymowits is defining them.

Mar. 15 2011 11:52 AM
Andy

Why are underemployed single college-educated men considered immature?

Is their population growing? Might this also be explained by the change in the role of men in marriage? 50 years ago a married man might still have a life outside of marriage quite independent of his wife and kids. Today marriage is seen as a partnership in which men now devote much of their social lives to their partners and kids.

Mar. 15 2011 11:52 AM

Ahhh more "culture" blab! Who gives a hoot? Brian, you're doing too many of these segments that really belong on some dumb morning t.v. show with Katie Lee's!

I'm soooo tired of these men/women pontificating their little theories based on their little "research" arrgggggggg!

Mar. 15 2011 11:52 AM
Mr. Bad from NYC

If she's right this sounds great for all concerned, the notion of a man being the "sole provider" is just as soul deadening to a man as the "housewife" role is to a women.

Mar. 15 2011 11:51 AM
Kathy

Are mothers to blame for raising such sissies?

Mar. 15 2011 11:51 AM

Feminism and Family are inherently incompatible concepts, as Family like Monarchy is inherently patriarchal. Men invented marriage and family, and women were made subordinate under the "Divine Right of Men" to rule the roost.

Since Feminism means total egalitarian equality, and competition between men and women in the work force, it is inherently anti-family, just as democracy is inherently anti-divine right of kings.

Feminism means women are not in the role of "helpmates" of men anymore, and that the case is often the reverse. Basically, in a nutshell, there is no plus for men in marriage today. They are expected to be subordinate, and for many men, that is not helpful. I see no future for marriage anymore, and society must find other ways for producing and rearing the next generations of workers and taxpayers. `

Mar. 15 2011 11:51 AM
jjny03 from CT

Cowboy Up. Red Sox Style.

Mar. 15 2011 11:47 AM
Leah from Brooklyn

I...am battling whether I should just turn off the radio now or give her the benefit of the doubt and listen, despite the high likelihood that I will turn into a fire-breathing rage machine within 15 seconds of the interview commencing.

Mar. 15 2011 11:44 AM
Frank from NYC

The term "manning up" is patently sexist. To her logic, she should be home having children, making dinner and certainly not writing books. The irony is rich.

Mar. 15 2011 11:07 AM
RBC from FiDi

If you read Ms. Hymowitz' articles in the Manhattan Institute's "City Journal", you'll understand where she's coming from. Basically, if you aren't married with a house surrounded by a white picket fence, have 2.4 kids with a dog and a cat then your children and society are doomed to failure.

Mar. 15 2011 10:30 AM
Phil

I think she paints with a very broad brush here.

Mar. 15 2011 10:12 AM

men always have acted like boys (ie war and sport)

Mar. 15 2011 09:02 AM

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