Streams

Maps and Papers

Wednesday, January 26, 2011

David Makovsky, senior fellow and director of the Project on the Middle East Peace Process at The Washington Institute and co-author (with Dennis Ross), of  Myths, Illusions, and Peace: Finding a New Direction for America in the Middle Eastproposes a map of the West Bank and talks about how the leak of the Palestine Papers affects the peace process.

Guests:

David Makovsky

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Comments [27]

Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

To YZ, once again occupying Brooklyn.

Since you say that you do not believe in sovereignty, will you destroy both passports thus ending any link you currently have to a sovereign government?

Again, which non-sovereignty will you relocate to, which also meets your high standards?

Will China accept you?
How about North Korea, or South Korea for that matter?
The Islamic Republic of Iran?

BTW, when will Russia end its occupation of land in East Asia?

Feb. 13 2011 02:51 PM
YZ from back in Brooklyn now

Edward,

I have come to terms with the coincidence of the locations where I have lived. Nobody chooses where they were born (or what religion their parents are). Nor was I old enough at the time to decide whether or not to move to the States. Have I thought about leaving? Sure--but money is an obstacle and personal/professional ties (the result of growing up and entering adulthood somewhere) make expatriating less simple. And although I hold an Israeli passport in addition to my American one--which would make a return to Israel fairly simple--the States are close enough to a theocracy for me; I don't need one that is even more overt.

I don't believe in sovereignty. I posed the question of American Indians to jgarbuz only to illustrate the fallacy of his Zionism argument. As I implied, I don't think that even the natives would claim that American land was theirs to live on exclusively, as Zionists claim is the case with Israel.

Feb. 01 2011 08:03 AM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

To YZ, currently occupying Brooklyn. Why would you come to the US when you just become another occupier of Native American land?

Doesn't your brutal occupation of Native American land bother you?

Where can go to and not be a brutal occupier?
Canada? No.
Australia? No.
New Zealand? No.
Mexico? No.

Jan. 27 2011 10:49 AM
Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights

bernie from bklyn asked...

"why does israel exist?"

Why does any country exist?

Why does bernie from bklyn exist?

Jan. 27 2011 10:43 AM
YZ from Under Your Bloody Feet

Even better for you:

Since Palestinians and Leftists are obviously incompatible with "true" sons of Judea such as yourself, JGarbuz, Netanyahu should just round them up and gas them. If the camel-jockeys in Syria and Lebanon don't like it, put them on trains and send them to gas camps too. Since the US and Israel have such strong ties, Israel should extradite self-haters like me and gas us as well.

Is gassing okay? Maybe you would prefer to have us all shot execution-style? You can rebuild the old temples on our corpses, offer us as blood sacrifices to your [one true] god, they way you used to do in the good old days.

Where does it end with you? What is your bottom line?

Jan. 26 2011 12:36 PM
YZ from "The World"

Very sad story. I feel sorry for you. The World must be a terribly inhospitable place for you.

But you have the opportunity to make The World more hospitable for you:

Maybe try running for office in Israel? Get elected, team up with world powers, maybe you can do even better? Get yourself into a position where you can take everyone in this inhospitable world and divide them up by skin color, what their favorite number is, the length and shape of their noses, how tall they are, and put them all into separate countries, divided by barbed wire fences and armed guards, so that they don't have to deal with people who don't think like they do, and so that they can all have a Homeland.

Jan. 26 2011 12:29 PM
jgarbuz from Queens

And yes, I know I am living on "indian" lands, and I have felt that way since I was a kid rooting for Cochise and his Chiracauha Apaches. I know that "America" is actually the homeland of dozens of marginalized "indian" nations who were dispossessed of most of their tribal lands to make room for a new nation. And if the "JEws" who were controlling the State of Israel were as interested in creating a JEwish state, rather than some "progressive" socialist state, I would still be there today. I believe in nations, and that every tribe should have a homeland of its own. I do not believe in "one world" cosmopolitanism, as the Soviet Union once claimed to be, where national aspirations are forcibly suppressed I believe in the family of nations, large and small, with every nation equal and recognized and proud of its unique culture and contributions to human civilization as a whole.

Jan. 26 2011 12:25 PM
jgarbuz from Queens

First of all, I was in America before you. My parents were holocaust survivors who were waiting in a German refugee camp to go to Palestine, but then I was born and then Truman offered to take in some 50,000 Jews from the camps, so we ended up in Brooklyn in 1948. When did you get to Brooklyn? Were you in a camp waiting for a homeland to take you in?

I did live in ISrael for ten years. WHy don't I live there today? Short answer. Too many like you there, both Arabs and Leftists, who do not believe in a JEwish state but rather some "progressive" mixed up entity. THEY SHOULD GO TO CANADA OR THE US, and let Jews live there in peace as Jews!

Jan. 26 2011 12:19 PM
YZ from Wherever I please

My last comment was meant to illustrate why your argument for Zionism is moot.

Furthermore, countries are not established according to the terms of their neighbors, it doesn't work that way. The only country in that region that could exist with positive diplomatic ties to its neighbors is one that shows acceptance for people indiscriminately. Israel is not this country right now, nor would it be alongside a sovereign Palestinian state, as history has shown. If you create a place in the region where people are free regardless of their beliefs, heritage, culture, etc., then the only thing you destabilize is the propensity of theocratic dictatorship in the Middle East. Everyone will want to imitate that model because it would grant them freedoms, and that is what people want. Don't be stupid.

Jan. 26 2011 12:19 PM
YZ from Still on Earth

JGarbuz,

If you want to use ancient tribes to legitimize exclusive theocracies in today's world, why don't you start by getting out of Queens and going back to your homeland? What are you doing here? This land belongs to Cayuga Indians, who were forced to migrate west a long time ago, although I doubt they would be presumptuous enough to claim that their deities entitled the land to them alone.

Jan. 26 2011 12:13 PM
jgarbuz from Queens

No, i don't want segregation. The Arabs already have 21 countries from which most JEws have been chased out of, and most of those Moroccan, Iraqi, Egyptian and Persian Jews live in Israel, or the US. Now the Arabs want a 22nd Arab state, called "Palestine" and demand part of Jerusalem as the capital of this 22nd new Arab state. I don't mind them getting another state in Judah, Samaria and Gaza, provided it is on the terms that Netanyahu has demanded: (1) they must recognize Israel as the Jewish state; (2) they have to give up claims to Jerusalem or any "right of return" to the Jewish state; and (3) they must be democratic and demilitarized and friendly with Israel. I think those terms are very resonable considering that Israel had to fight 6 wars, and won, and that all of that territory is ancient Israelite lands that Israel now controls. If the Arabs want another state so close to Israel, they have to agree to ISrael's terms.

Jan. 26 2011 12:10 PM
YZ from Earth

JGarbuz,

I'm not talking about Zionist History, I'm talking about NOW. I'm not talking about who said what and who voted for what more than seventy years ago, I'm talking about creating peace NOW.

So:

Who is shooting down the idea of a binational state NOW? One that would grant equal rights to Arab Israelis already living in Israel, as well as Palestinians? I haven't even heard the phrase "one-state solution" mentioned by anyone other than Alice Walker in the last three years.

You want segregation? You think that someone is entitled to live and work where they want to only if they fall into one ethnic category? Please explain how this makes you any different from a Nazi, or from these Arabs you love to blame for Israel's failure to achieve peace with its neighbors.

Jan. 26 2011 12:04 PM
jgarbuz from Queens

Achi,

Jews are not a seperate species. Jews are a TRIBE, a "shevet" in Hebrew, like the Irish or the Germans or the Nordics, or the Comanches, or the Arabs. Not a separate species, but a separate nation with its own mentality, its own ancient history, and culture, and ancient language, and its own ancient religious traditions and rituals that most JEws today do not really engage in anyway. But there was a KINGDOM OF JUDAH from which the word "JEw" comes from. When Judeans went into exile and came to live in other countries, naturally they were called "Juden" or Jews, because they were originally from Judea. As the nation of Judah faded into history the Jews retreated into rabbinical religion. The rabbis became the leaders of a scattered nation in exile. They retained the Hebrew language, and memories of the history and ancient culture, thereby enabling its resurrection someday in the Land of ISrael.

Jan. 26 2011 11:59 AM
jgarbuz from Queens

To the Israeli born "World Citizen"

I guess the leftists who taught you in ISraeli grade schools and high schools didn't teach you much about early Zionist history. Because if you had had a thorough education in Zionism, you would have known that the Leftists who controlled the Zionist movement in its early years practically offered to create a binational state with the Arabs! But the Arabs wanted nothing short of an ARAB STATE with the Jews remaining only as dhimmis, or a "protected minority" as is traditional in Muslim law. The idea of a binational state or something like Lebanon was brought up many times but literally SHOT DOWN by the Arabs. Such ideas more or less came to an end in the mid 1930s when it became clear that reconciliation between the Jews and the Arabs was IMPOSSIBLE, and the idea of a second partition was recommended by the British Peel Commision in 1938, and again shot down by the Arabs. As it was in 1948.

Jan. 26 2011 11:52 AM
YZ from Brooklyn

@JGarbuz--

Lo nachon, achi!

I couldn't disagree with you more. Why should there be a Jewish State when what we need is a progressive, free, westernized country to stabilize the region?

Furthermore, to say there should be a Jewish State is like saying that Jews are some kind of endangered species that need to be protected. Well, Jews are not a species, let alone an endangered one. With the exception of those living in Palestine, their homeland before 1948 was Europe and Russia (and the States!). If you mean to suggest that Jews are a species, then you legitimize the thinking behind the ethnic cleansing enacted by the Nazis. And this is a VERY dangerous kind of logic.

Jan. 26 2011 11:48 AM
Mike from Brooklyn

All this is foolish. This is still Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. This will go on for thousands of years. Jews or Israel will survive one way or another and its enemies will go on forever as well. Nothing is ever going to be resolved.

Jan. 26 2011 11:46 AM
jgarbuz from Queens

To Bernie from Brooklyn

Israel exists because it is the HOMELAND of the Jewish nation. It is not the homeland of any other nation. And this was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations in 1922. Hebrew is the Canaanite language, and the Philistines are long gone. Only the Israelites and Jews had actual kingdoms in that land, that was often occupied by others. That is why Israel exists, because it is the Jewish homeland.

Jan. 26 2011 11:45 AM
Tom from Toronto

Makovsky showed his true colours with his comments on Egypt.

Right, its all Islamists protesting on the street and the Mubarak regime is "very strong"... keep drinking the koolaid.

Jan. 26 2011 11:45 AM
Martin Chuzzlewit from Manhattan

@zeggae...Brian and his "fellow Jewish guest".
LOL.....I know a book that someone like you would buy into..."The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Just your kind of reading.

Jan. 26 2011 11:43 AM
jgarbuz from Queens

What 99.9% of those who discuss the Israel-Palestine issue, including Mr. Makovsky, continue to miss, or intentionally overlook, is that geography and boundaries have NOTHING to do with the core issues! The core issue is: Will the Arab and Muslim and even a Christian country called the Vatican, recognize and accept a JEWISH STATE to exist in peace, or not? Discussing boundaries and borders is simply pure smoke that has NOTHING to do with this conflict that goes back to 1920! Recognition of the State of Israel means nothing, just as German and Soviet recogntion of Poland in the 1920s meant nothing. Before 1939 there was normalization and trade, etc. between Poland and her two powerful neighbors, Germany and Russia. The problem was, that neither Germany nor Russia at the time recognized the RIGHT of a Polish state to exist! And that is how we got WWII. Unless Israel is recognized as the Jewish STATE and homeland, all the rest is just blah blah blah!

Jan. 26 2011 11:41 AM
bernie from bklyn

why does israel exist?

Jan. 26 2011 11:41 AM
zeggae

This is a brutal occupation supported by the USA. This is wrong, it was wrong in South Africa its wrong and immoral here. So Brian and his fellow Jewish guest can dress is up as much as they want. Historically people fight occupation and oppression. This should be denounced outright.

Jan. 26 2011 11:39 AM
Israeli-born, World Citizen YZ from Brooklyn

I have come to believe in a one-state solution in Israel/Palestine. The perpetuation of a Jewish State, which in practice is yet another theocracy in the region, is not only the biggest stumbling block to the peace process, but conceptually stands in absolute contradiction to the very ideas with which it was founded in 1948, as a reaction to the Holocaust and ethnic oppression.

Any development in the process that doesn't point toward breaking down that ugly wall and treating Israelis and Palestinians not as Jews and Arabs but as human beings united, is destructive and will lead to a serious war, implicating the whole world.

Jan. 26 2011 11:39 AM
Martin Chuzzlewit from Manhattan

@Sarah........uh, gee, for starters maybe they could recognize Israel's right to exist.

Jan. 26 2011 11:38 AM
Tom from Toronto

Yes, let's blame Al-Jazeera for "hyping" this. Yes, let's shoot the messenger.

The real story is how much a patsy the PA has become, and the world stands by and does nothing as Israel continues to drag its feet.

Jan. 26 2011 11:37 AM
zeggae

This was not known by the Palestinian people, they had no clue that their core issues were being negotiated away by these so called leaders. Since the papers have come out the Palestinian people have rejected this guys maps which is one in the same with the so called leaders

Jan. 26 2011 11:35 AM
Sarah from brooklyn

What seems depressing about the Palestine Papers is that the Palestinians offered all these concessions yet were still rejected. What will be good enough if not what they offered?

Jan. 26 2011 11:35 AM

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