On Demand
Smackdown: Record Stores
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
(donnierobot/flickr)
Music fans celebrated Record Store Day last week with in-store performances, wallet-draining purchases and odes to independent retailers. But some say physical record stores are not worth saving in the online age. Sue Bryan, general manager at J&R Music and freelance writer Dan Gibson join us for a debate over the future of record stores.
Tell us: Are record stores worth saving? Why or why not?
Dan Gibson's post, "Record Store Day: The Rebuttal" (Idolator)
J&R Music
Soundcheck blog: John Schaefer on record stores
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While I truly would hate to see the demise of the music store, one advantage to buying music online is never feeling looked down upon by those who work at the independent music store - a la High Fidelity. I never felt cool enough to be in stores such as the one reflected in that movie. Those music store types really do exist and, therefore, shopping online is a much more comfortable experience for those of us who are not painfully hip and/or totally in the know.
The upside to the anonymous nature of the online shopping experience is that there's no one to make you feel like a dork.
Though I do enjoy the convenience of online shopping, I would sorely miss the brick-and-mortar Record Store.
I shop these locales not just to purchase items, but for the sense of community that they encourage. Though, like the previous responder, I have sometimes felt not "hip" enough to join conversations. However, more common was the experience that I learned about music, musicians and venues that I would have otherwise never heard of.
More, the tactile sensation and redolence of flipping through records is inimitable.
Imagine New York with no music stores or book stores. Seems more and more that it's all about drugstores and coffee. Purveyors of music (and art forms) are vital to the soul of the city. I try to support small local businesses whenever I can. They are a big part of what makes New York great. Sure, I buy some Indy CD's on line, but there's nothing like getting out there and perusing the record bins. I'm not an audiophile, but downloads simply do not sound as good. J&R is a great store. Please don't close!!! Academy Records is another gem of the city.
I buy most of my CDs online nowadays, the exception being when I'm in India once a year and I stock up on my Hindi and Tamil movie music, and also some "Western" music ('cos prices are so good).
But where I really miss having a record store nearby is when I am struck by the thought "Oh, that CD by _________ would be a perfect birthday gift for _______!" Normally, the happens just a few days away from the birthday, and there's not enought time to buy the CD online without having to cough up almost the equivalent price of the disc to cover the expedited shipping.
Browsing in bookstores/music stores is a great thing to do in any country. I love to wander about the huge FNAC store in the City 2 shopping center in Brussels, often coming out - like young John did from his local record store - with my hands full of shopping bags of CDs by Jacquel Brel, Neg Marrons, Les Négresses Vertes etc., as well as a ton of TinTin and Gabrielle Vincent books, and my wallet rather empty.
I feel sorry for the generation that would put so much faith into new technology and delivery sytems, whether we're talking about newspapers and information, or record stores and music. How many of us have discovered our favorite groups or at the very least our favorite cult groups through the happy accident of filing through random racks at the record store? Downloading music online doesn't allow for that, nor for the tactile experience of the album or even CD cover, nor the information imparted there as a way of ''guessing'' whether it's going to be worthwhile. Spare me the e-joy of the online community and social networks....I'd much rather watch people in real life making their musical choices--sometimes the best consumer guidance you'll ever know.
I grew up in record stores, checking out new releases, chatting with knowledgable clerks, learning the classical repertoire and amassing a library of a few thousand items.
So, sure, I would love to have record stores around forever, but my opinion is of no consequence...This is all about economics, not nostalgia.
I think that record stores will stay around in some form or fashion for quite some time. However, I think that their form and clientele will change dramatically.
I see record stores becoming more of a niche market for collectors. They have relevance... but not in the same way they once did. The local record store is no longer the cultural hub it once was.
The cultural shift has happened. People would much rather make their music purchases online. The new cultural hub is online... people visit their favorite blogs instead of their favorite record store.
i still love them. but i also still like to surprise myself and buy things based on what the cover looks like and what the folks working at the store tell me about it. you can't get that on itunes.and record store workers are nerds you just have to know how to not ask stupid questions.
As a ten year vet of various record stores in various cities I think that there is a definite need for them, not only as a means to purchase music, but as a forum to learn about and discuss music with like minded souls. iTunes may indeed be convenient, but you're missing out on the tactile experience of flipping through vinyl, cds, or whatever it is kids are using to listen to music these days. From the first record I ever bought (Michael Jackson's epic Thriller) to the most recent CD I added to my collection (Yeah Yeah Yeahs-It's Blitz) I've always loved flipping through assorted albums and "absorbing" them, often times revisiting them later out of the initial curiosity I felt when I first encountered them. Sure, it's thoughtful of Apple to include reviews and a "suggested listening" or "other people who liked this also bought" window in their software, but to me it's just not the same. While the sale of digital downloads solves the age old problem of keeping hot items on shelves it also robs us of the excitement of showing up at midnight to buy brand spanking new music we've been chomping at the bit for, simultaneously meeting attractive singles while waiting in line and making dates to see shows with them. Can iTunes do that? Digital music sales have definitely has filled a convenience niche, but as long as there are people who love the soft clicks and pops of a record being played and there's a crop of young enthusiasts with a penchant for growing an enviable and tasteful collection of assorted musical trophies there will most certainly be a need for a good local record store, regardless of what Steve Jobs thinks.
I love small record stores, and was also a regular user of Tower, etc. I have a great nostalgic attachment to them. However...
"Saving..."? well, they are saved if they fill their customer's needs, and customers keep coming. If not, they are toast.
For Record Stores:
Expert staff
Browsability
For online music:
LISTENING!
Huge selection
Niche music
24-hours access
At the very least, retail stores need to do more to allow listeners to hear any selection. If the online sites can add EXPERT recommendations, and better browsing tools, then, they win!
In the 1970's, in Austria, my local store would allow me, a teenager, to request any album, give it to me, allow me to take it into a special booth, and listen to it.
Ahead of the curve!
Something I'm sure that hurt a lot of indie stores and many of them still have not caught up: allowing you to listen in the store! With records and tapes, I can see why not, but since CD's, there should be no excuse. When I walk into a new music store now, I turn around and leave IMMEDIATELY if there is no listening counter. It says they do not care and are not interested.
Kind of a strange topic in NYC tho; the first thing I noticed after moving here (seriously) was that there are virtually no music stores anywhere.
Also, the survival of indie record stores is closely linked to NYC real estate, like everything else in NYC.
Hence, the glut of big box mall stores, and the disappearance of your local stores... including music.
Solution: Brooklyn, Far Rockaway, Grand Concourse... maybe a floating record store in the Hudson?!
Sentimentality! Give me a break.
If you like your band, you've got to appreciate the good and bad. Albums tell a complete bands story.
Also, albums come along with visual art, which adds a whole other level to the music.
When I was a kid my sister went to the village Tower records to buy me the very popular Pat Benatar record that I wanted for my birthday. A snotty store clerk told her forget that and handed her Kate Bush who had the done a better version of Withering Heights.
THANK GOD - that introduction shifted my whole universe.
Incurring the carbon footprint of physical media is no longer necessary. It's a luxury we are harming the environment by choosing. It requires fossil fuels causing carbon emissions for manufacture, transport and disposal.
Music gotten online lets you listen to the music before you buy (no longer the case with today's shrinkwrapped package stores). Online royalty collection gives the artist a higher share of what you pay. Online music acquisition frees us from the fixed format constraints of the extended cd form.
For old records, collectable, rare or that function as art objects in themselves I hope there will always be *used* record stores.
Used vinyl has been my entry into classical music. I can't imagine having become a classical music fan without it.
I'm a twentysomething, not the typical demographic for a classical music consumer. I buy (or procure by other means) most of my indie rock and pop music purchases from the Internet.
Nor am I a sucker for brick-and-mortar physicality. The issue for me is low-cost and diversity. For the $15-$20 it costs to purchase a CD, I have walked out of used record stores with a stack of excellent classical LPs.
I don't buy any music anymore, preferring to get them digitally from friends and downloaded "elsewhere" on the internet. Ticket prices to concerts are exorbitant, and there is no need to pay so much money to cover musicians when they are charging so much to be seen live. I don't feel too bad to record store, or musicians.
the culture your female gust speaks of is truly gone. mucis was once a truly shared communal activity...one friend would have the cash to buy a new release and we'd all go listen to it in their room/basement, and groove on the album cover, etc...it was a group effort...
but listening to music via Ipod/mp3 is a solo actitity now...sure we might sahre some tunes while driving around, etc - but the nature of sharing music changed with the arrival of the walkman...
reviving the record store mood is like these speak-easy's being revived in NYC, etc...cute and trendy...but it aint the same thing.
Developing a personal relationship with a clerk is very helpful. I think clerks get a bad rap...I imagine they aren't paid much, but expected to know a tremendous amount of detailed esoterica.
A record store was a full assault on all the senses; I remember the blinding covers and wall to wall posters, fliers, etc. The incense or patchouli, depending on the store... the blaring sound system... the cute chicks and scary dudes behind the counter, the driving all over town to find the exact Southern Death Cult (aka The Cult later) Godzoo single... Oh it was marvelous.
It was a pseudo-democratic cultural center. I just have been wondering what has replaced it.
(And I LOVE Jack Black in High Fidelity, grin)
Not only do I not miss record stores, for the most part I don't miss music having to be a physical object.
I don't miss hauling around 4 giant books of CDs and crates of records while moving. I don't miss the space these things take up in my apartment. I don't miss having to re-buy everything when the format changes. I don't miss listening to the same crackling, worn-out mix tape for weeks at a time.
... And I really don't miss snooty hipster record store clerks who scoff at my guilty pleasures. So there!
I am always surprised how nice the people at Other Music are. They don't ask if you need help, but are always pleasant when you have a question.
I think one of the best things about independent record shops is the USED section. Places like Kim's (which just closed its St. Marks place in January) had a fantastic selection of used cds. Sure eBay is a source for this, but I disagree with the caller from Phoenix. You can't replace the experience of going to the store and actually finding a cd you weren't looking for.
And I found the record store clerks quite helpful. Particularly at Other Music in the Village, which ironically outlasted Tower after so many years.
Save the record stores! And the video stores! Do we want another liquor store, Duane Reade, or Pink Berry there. Are those clerks so much nicer?
I really listen to my music, therefore I always buy CD's - not only for the tactile reasons mentioned above, but for the AIFF high quality bit rate of the discs themselves. This allows me to truly hear the dynamic range of the music - something not available in any download (yet).
My friend was buying a used Bruce Springsteen cd from Kim's and the clerk made a face said "ugh" and walked away refusing to check him out.
hahaha gotta love it.
My ears aren't sentimental. They prefer the sound of .wav files or analog audio. Not shoddy compressed DRM'd music files.
As someone who is in the process of moving, CDs are turning into a PAIN. I'm facing a giant box of them right now, wondering if it's worth taking the time to burn the discs (thereby reducing my load by that box) or if I should just get rid of them altogether. Ugh.
There aren't a lot of albums I need to have in my hands to love. I see that now.
So long as there are LP's, there had better be a place in the area to buy them!
I would open one just to replace those that have closed here in Rockland county.
My shelves are full of records and CDs I love that clerks recommended. When Discophile and Stern's African went under, I didn't switch to buy pirate recordings and African music online. I stopped buying them altogether.
Funny--they played that clip from High Fidelity. There are times when listening to WNYC's evening music programming--not John, not Terrance, but others--that the music and level of discourse is a bit.....esoteric.
Not unlike the record store clerks being ridiculed.
i don't go to record stores anymore because what they carry is so limited. as my taste in music grows more and more obscure and experimental i can find almost everything i want online and almost nothing i want in a record store.
and i only buy cd's. NO DIGITAL MP3's PLEASE. liner notes!!! i want to know who's playing what instrument on each track and i want album artwork. you can't get that with an mp3.
timely; just last month Long Island Sound closed its last store in Southampton. It was sad. The former owner is now employed as a host in a restaurant in town (where he's also installing his own art collection).
It cost me about $15.00 per cd, even though
I only liked one song.
Now I can download the songs, movies,
audiobooks I want, without a problem.
And I never have to deal with a storeclerk.
It's a beautiful thing.
I buy anything I want online, only
go to Trader Joe's to shop for food.
I go to Virgin Records on 14th street,
to get the accurate name and artist of music
I want to listen to and then go home and
purchase the item online.
No tax.
apples and oranges: convenience vs. experience
I once heard something on the radio and really loved it. I walked into J&R and said to someone who worked there “I am looking for Mango Tango, I don’t know if that is the name of the song, the album, or the group.” The J&R employee knew exactly what I was talking about and handed me the CD. He didn’t make me feel stupid or un-hip he just helped me. It was a great experience.
The joy of finding my dad's vinyl collection and discovering a history of music I would not have known or appreicated. It was an insight into my dad's life as a teen.
I wonder if an ipod's content is going to be able to introduce the next generation to a glimmer of their parent's life and love? I doubt it, they are disposble items. How many people do you know with a first generation ipod that is still working?
At one time, record stores were a great resource for music lovers. It was where people got together to talk about music, musicians and even had the old "listening booths" where you or you and your friends could go in and listen to records. But clearly that is outdated and it shouldn't be dismissed as an important part of what those old record shops were. When you talk about saving record shops no one talks about moving AWAY from music blogs and back to the old system. The record shop didn't start becoming outdated with the advent of the internet. It's decline started long before that time. Can't we just move on to a better system? It would be great if there were no national top Billboard hits and we moved BACK to a system where Record companies didn't have the contro they do now and musicians were selling and recording music themselves as something they love not something they do as a career.
Hey! Do not forget about the poor dedicated record clerk not all of whom have a bad'tude but rather get one from the public...Selling singles from a retro store out on a street table I got three sweet singles, (By ray charles,areatha,and elvis costello) snapped into shards up in my face by some drunk pseudo-punk with a fake english accent yelling about some delusion. .All music sellers no doubt know that type that they have to deal with,along with the petty rip off sneaks,yet still they can remain cool cats. thanks,TLG
I wanted to chime in on this while I was listening to it on the way home. First of all, despite that fact that I'm a musician (myspace.com/rotwangjams) I am 100% of the idea that music and all other arts should be free for all to take part in. On the other hand, the structure of the music industry in a society like ours destroys nothing but independent musicians, while the corporate labels smash all below them. Despite the great advances of technology and what it allows us to do, here are the following concerns I have about a "switch to digital"
1. mp3's and particularly M4A is significantly lower quality than from a CD.
2. I Tunes and Amazon, although some commented that you're giving money directly to the artist, extract nearly 90% (if not more) from every sale. I'm not sure if that has changed.
3. I'm generally concerned about how this will affect the independent music industry. Someone commented on the show earlier that "most albums only have 2 or 3 good songs" to which I would respond "yeah sure, if you listen to crap". I am a strong advocate of "the album" vs. "the song" I feel that it is a much better expression of a musician. You could compare a rock band's album to a composer's symphony. Most symphonies don't last a mere 3 minutes. What the switch to digital entails is that musicians who may not write "hits" but may write breathtaking albums are ground under the corporate "music" industry. I have never once found a decent album at a wal-mart or target and unfortunately the sales of the real physical product is gradually being pushed into their hands, destroying the small record labels and destroying the accessibility to independent music.
After I wrote in my weblog (http://richardmitnick.wordpress.com) about Mark O'Connor's new release, "Americana Symphony", whihc I of course purchased in mp3 at Amazon, my sister, probably one of my only faithful readers, hotsied on down to the Princeton Record Ehchange and bought not only the new work on CD, but also Mark's "Retrospective".
Long Live the Princeton Record Exchange!!
the best music
http://webfreemusic.com
How green is your download?
Your computer and mp3 player are filled with possible environmental hazards, and what about all the energy it takes to run the "server farms" that power the googles, amazons and Apple Ipod stores?
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