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Pros and Cons of Teaching to the Test
Earlier this year, we collaborated with the Vote 18 Political Literacy Project, which looked to engage Pace High School students in the mayoral election. Education was a hot topic, and in particular the question of how much NYC schools should rely on standardized testing. Christopher Malone, associate professor of political science at Pace University, is organizer of the project. He's joined by Quincy Adonis and Melanie Lugo, two Pace High School students who participated in the project.
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I would like to know more about critical thinking's place in our educational system.
From what I remember from my education (I am 30 years old and grew up in a suburb on Long Island), we touched on it briefly in English class when analyzing a story. Other than, I really have no recollection.
thanks,
Gabrielle
Brian, again you cannot have found more articulate students. Their diction shows their lack of learning. This segment teachs the listener nothing.
You and your show always find, like Radio Rookies, these poor examples of modern minority youth.
I agree with the stance that teaching to standardized tests sells students short, but doesn't pointing to the discrepancy between state tests and SATs simply highlight discrepancies between two versions of the same thing, i.e. standardized tests?
Do any teachers actually teach correct grammar? I cannot tell by listening to these guests. What a shame.
Maybe it is better to have subject and verb disagree so that peoples theys pays attentions to yous.
Bloomberg is lying through his teeth. Kids are not even thoroughly learning spelling, grammar, phonics, and vocabulary at an elementary school level. And these tests become easier and easier every year. We are now beginning to see the results at a high school level. It gets worse and worse every year. Teachers want to teach, but how can they when they are thwarted at every turn? Principals do not even have tenure any more and can be fired at will if they refuse to adopt the system. Everything is about statistics.
There is just a stark difference between kids who learn how to think and those who don't. Kids who learn how to think, ask questions, behave confidently, have opinions, they will be fine in life.
The kids who only learn to follow orders, sit down, shut up...they are doomed.
I think there grammar is fine. Hey do they still teach civics? And, do they teach media literacy?
Mike it is their not there, thanks for proving my point.
I teach the test as a genre study; much like any other genre. It's designed to trick the student, and once you know the tricks, you can beat the test.
All my students passed the test last year.
But I was also forced to score the test, and what's considered "passing" in short answer and essay answers is, laughable.
[[2] john from office November 11, 2009 - 11:15AM
Brian, again you cannot have found more articulate students. Their diction shows their lack of learning. This segment teachs the listener nothing.
You and your show always find, like Radio Rookies, these poor examples of modern minority youth.]]
i was counting the number of "likes" and smirked a bit. on the other hand, here are these kids with the guts to speak to the whole city, offer their opinions. the young lady in the group is actually doing really well.
calm down. this is how kids speak. could be better. might be, in the future.
Dear God, can we get a respite from the 15 year olds?
They speak in broken English bromides and everytime they open their mouths I begin to sympathize with conservatives.
The kids aren't alright.
They're dumb.
Kids,
Welcome to the real world. Life is not fair. Unfortunately testing is the only way to judge people across regions, economic circumstances etc..
In reality it is a way to filter people out.
And, unfortunately you have to learn to pass or do well on such tests. I don't personally like it, but this is the reality.
If you want to be a Dr., lawyer, CPA, CFA, actuary etc.. national tests are what you need to pass to move on with your dreams.
Just take in stride and make sure you know how to learn.
[[[5] alex from ny November 11, 2009 - 11:17AM
Bloomberg is lying through his teeth. Kids are not even thoroughly learning spelling, grammar, phonics, and vocabulary at an elementary school level. And these tests become easier and easier every year. We are now beginning to see the results at a high school level. It gets worse and worse every year.]]
I'm sure you're right. On the other hand, if there are no books in the home, kids won't adopt a LOVE of books and reading.
IMHO, I work with middleclass white kids, who are young and speak very well, I also work and mentor minority kids and refuse to allow them to speak like the lowest common denominator. The teachers like Brian, accept the poor diction, because of the low expectations and cultural arrogance of brian and others like him.
The guests made the point that standardized tests can't help you learn how to verbally, audibly articulate yourself: you must learn to speak! Not enough is made of this point.
Could these teachers please come to my workplace and teach my co-workers critical thinking. It is sorely lacking and can lead to financial meltdowns.
It all comes back to these tests at the elementary school level.
It is wonderful to hear about these political literacy programs. We are all lucky because of these amazing people teaching our kids to understand, become involved and perhaps make changes in what goes on in our city. It is clear that these kids are more knowledgeable than the average NYC student and will most likely become a very productive citizens, and perhaps advocates for policies that will change the live of many.
My thanks to Dr. Malone, Pace University, and every program like this out there.
I never took the SATs because I didn't think I'd ever go to college.
Years later (age 21), I did decide to return to school. With no SAT scores, I opted for city college (Hunter - an excellent school), established a good GPA through hard work, and then went on to SUNY Stony Brook - an acknowledged national leader with its physical therapy program.
If you want to believe that the limits of your success will be established by a standardized test, then that's the level you will meet.
What is ironic: doing really well in college and doing really well in graduate school, learing the critical-creative thinking mentioned in this conversation, then realizing that the "real world" work environment is hostile to such thinking and their are few jobs out there that value such "skills".
Teaching to the test works to improve students' scores on that particular test; however, the greater availability of test preparation materials and courses gives wealthier students an advantage on entrance exams like the SAT, MCAT, etc. I taught public high school science for 5 years and am currently studying for 2 specialty board exams at the end of residency. Regardless of my applicable understanding of my field, I must, once again, teach myself to the test.
I'm a college sophomore now. My compulsory school experience was ALL about the tests, and my solution was to leave. Students can take education into their own hands by registering as homeschoolers and learning on their own.
[[11] J. from East Village, NY November 11, 2009 - 11:23AM Dear God, can we get a respite from the 15 year olds? They speak in broken English bromides and everytime they open their mouths I begin to sympathize with conservatives. The kids aren't alright. They're dumb.]]
SHEESH! They are fifteen. Didi your family and teachers give up on you at that age? Did you go to work in a steel mill? Or did people continue to nurture and support you? So that you could turn into an old crank.
On the SAT scores, it is completely unfair that many of our students do not have the skills to score high on these exams. However, colleges do look at the students holistically and do not determine eligibility for college simply based on the SAT score.
As someone who has been teaching in NYC for eight years now, I am completely saddened by the education the city gives it students. Some students graduate with only basic literacy skills.
I have seen administrators who come up with quick fix two week computer courses to give students enough credits so that their graduation numbers aren't as low as they really should be. I feel that many teachers have set the standard so low that students get A's for simply being good kids. When these students get to college they truly struggle b/c they are sitting in classrooms with students who actually read books independently and were able to have discussions about these books.
I think an important idea that one of your guests brought up was being a life-long learner. It encompasses critical thinking, a curiosity for ideas as well as out-of-the-box thinking. I think unfortunately it has fallen by the wayside in our public education system as percentages and ratings are hyped. And, no, they don't emphasis grammar anymore - no time, they have to teach to the test!
[[[14] john from office November 11, 2009 - 11:25AM
IMHO, I work with middleclass white kids, who are young and speak very well, I also work and mentor minority kids and refuse to allow them to speak like the lowest common denominator. The teachers like Brian, accept the poor diction, because of the low expectations and cultural arrogance of brian and others like him.]]
good point. i also see a lot of kids whose language skills make me want to kill myself. "he don't be havin' no books." "i'm finnin' to go." the world is a blur to the illiterate.
and then there is the profanity which appears to start around age six. weak language skills equate to a weak mind. strengthen the mind with books.
I earned higher than 90% on every NYS regents that I took, including several advanced math and science regents. Believe me, I am no genius. I inuitively grasp patterns, however, and the Regents are highly structured, with the same categories and species of question repeated from year-to- year.
I would study for the Regents in each subject by buying a review book and doing a few old Regents. My grasp of the underlying subject matter varied based on my interest in the subject -- from alot (English and History) to zero (Chem) -- but I always got that "A" on the Regents.
Teaching to the test, in other words, teaches nothing of substance, nor does a good grade show anything other than an ability to take tests. I don't care what the politics, educators and psychologists have to say about this issue -- I speak from personal experience. I'm good at taking tests because I intuitively recognize patterns. This ability -- it's not even a skill -- has nothing to do with critical thinking. E.g., I run our home, not because I'm a woman or particularly "smart", but because the ability to see patterns makes me a good organizer. I know how to take alot of chaos and turn it into a schedule.
And that, friends, is all that is being tested by the Regents, SATs, LSATS, etc.
Wow. I just read all of the previous comments made and am incredibly amazed by people's cruelty. These kids come from neighborhoods where it is a success to simply have these kids attend school regularly. Before you criticize these CHILDREN for the way they speak, go out there and do something about it! Go teach. Go mentor. And then you would have done something to to correct their grammar, diction, pronunciation etc. rather than just put them down for trying. Very nice, WNYC listeners. I hope that made you feel better about yourselves.
Flores: The point is that the schools are not doing their job, because they expect this kids to talk poorly. The crime is the low expectations. Brian would never let his kids speak like that, he would correct them.
[[29] john from office November 11, 2009 - 11:41AM Flores: The point is that the schools are not doing their job, because they expect this kids to talk poorly. The crime is the low expectations. Brian would never let his kids speak like that, he would correct them.]]
also, the parents are not doing the jobs. if we are going to have high standards, let's make them universal. no excuses because the parents are poor, single, immigrant. bring books into your home. encourage your kids to read.
IMHO, you're absolutely right. But schools need to better influence (if not force) kids to read as well. I remember constantly reading for school every year throughout my public school education. I'm not a big proponent of standardized tests but, at the end of the day, student evaluations come down to a student's own ambition and level of intelligence. Each student is a product of the circumstances of his/her environment to a certain extent. However, that is something that is not so simple to address. The board of ed is simply trying to mask greater issues by saying the kids are alright. As a whole, our country is nowhere near the top in education, and the economy is not helping matters. Education and the economy are very intertwined. This country needs to extend school hours, workloads and increase the standards of education (as well as provide the proper assistance for those who can't keep pace).
[30] IMHO
November 11, 2009 - 11:46AM
[[29] john from office November 11, 2009 - 11:41AM Flores: The point is that the schools are not doing their job, because they expect this kids to talk poorly. The crime is the low expectations. Brian would never let his kids speak like that, he would correct them.]]
also, the parents are not doing the jobs. if we are going to have high standards, let's make them universal. no excuses because the parents are poor, single, immigrant. bring books into your home. encourage your kids to read.]]
I understand and you're both right. But you must agree that some of these criticisms weren't as productive as yours or about the education system. For example, "The kids aren't alright. They're dumb." Just plain cruel.
Please do not judge kids you do not even know. They should be commended for coming on the show on their day off and expressing their opinions. They could be home like the rest of the kids in the city watching tv or doing something else non-academic. They were nervous, this was their first time on the radio. You try sounding intelligent when you are a bundle of nerves. Even the most intelligent people say "um" and "like" when they get nervous. They have a long way to go in their educational life. Their grammar will be corrected over time. They are still young! Maybe if we weren't so concerned with teaching to the test we would have time to teach public speaking skills and grammar (things that aren't on the NYS Regents Exams). It is very easy to sit back when you are white and have money and had a decent education. These kids come from bad neighborhoods, overcrowded schools, and come from parents that work multiple jobs to provide for their families. What parent wants to read to their children after working two to three shifts at work? Also, many of these parents do not speak English, so how do you expect them to promote proper grammar, when they can't even string a sentence of English together. My point is don't sit back and judge. If you want the problem fixed, then take your time and/or money and help them. They need more classes, more college counselors, SAT classes, prep books, tutors, etc. Help correct the injustices that exist.
I agree with Kackie. People need to stop complaining and start helping
John from the office need to stop being an ignorant man. Quincy Adnis And Melanie Lugo did a great job at giving there opinions as student. everyone gets nervous once in a while. people like john discourage student to do better. if people like him are going to make them feel bad then might as well not comment at all.
GooD Jub guys, :)
signed:Lisbel.
I am shocked by the amount of cruel words that have been said about these students. THESE ARE CHILDREN. The amount of disrespect that most of you have shown actually shines a light on your own backgrounds and education. I applaud the dedication that these students have for coming in on a holiday to voice their opinions and suggestions on how to improve the system and best cater to their academic development.I agree with Kackie in that those mean-spirited people should get off their high chairs and contribute to changing the education system. There is a reform needed within the system so that tests are not the only focal point of learning. I will soon graduate college and I am now preparing for my LSATs. Let me tell you that, just like the Regents and SATs, the standardized structure of the LSATs have nothing to do with your academic intelligence- but rather with your ability to recognize patterns. In using the same reasoning, it is not effective for HS students to just learn the test. As Dr. Malone stated, there should be a huge component of analytical reasoning that should be in conjunction to memorizing facts and figures. I still remember my teachers focusing on the art of taking the test rather than helping me to develop the cognitive skills needed to evaluate the material. For me, these skills were only accumulated through the passion I had for reading and writing on my own as a high school student. As such, the education system needs to expand to give more to teachers and classrooms so that students are not at a disadvantage when they graduate. I hope that our elected officials are able to carry out policies that will support our students and teachers rather than just worry about the numbers and statistics for their political belt. I want to thank Dr. Malone, Quincy and Melanie for coming on the show, and to Justin for calling in with his opinion. To Brian and all those at the Brian Lehrer Show, it was really encouraging to listen to this segment.
Real learning will result in higher test scores, but teaching to a test is not real learning. It's very reductive. If all you learned in a social studies class was to pass the Regents with a 65 (the bar is low and the norming makes it far lower), then you really know nothing about the subject and you probably missed the other skills--researching, writing, critical thinking--that make the knowledge mean something.
Listen to these students. They're telling the world what Bloomberg's pseudo-reforms actually are and, believe me, despite a well-financed, slick ad campaign, Bloomberg was not able to convince the public when the people of New York know the truth through the experiences they and their children have had in public schools in recent years.
By the way John from the Office, you made a mistake. You spelled teaches as "teachs," which is wrong. Just pointing out that you are not perfect. Neither are my students, so please leave them alone.
[2] john from office November 11, 2009 - 11:15AM
Brian, again you cannot have found more articulate students. Their diction shows their lack of learning. This segment teachs the listener nothing.
You and your show always find, like Radio Rookies, these poor examples of modern minority youth.
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