On Demand
Ravitch Report
Thursday, December 04, 2008
Brooklyn borough president Marty Markowitz, Nassau County Executive Thomas Suozzi and Tri-State Transportation Campaign executive director Kate Slevin will react to the Ravitch Commission proposals on the MTA.
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Instead of passing on all of the costs to the little guys, why don't we go after some of the bonus money that the big guys on Wall Street made in their glory years as they trashed our economy! I am sure that this make up a lot of the cash needed to run the MTA!
if MTA is going to raise fares and cut service, then it needs to promote passenger decency rules in order to provide a safe and comfortable ride. the previous set of rules (one seat per passenger, no walking between cars) is not being enforced, since no one is watching what goes on inside a subway car.
Let's start by teaching common courtesy in the classroom, since many students now use mass transit to get to school.
1) Move all the way into the subway car. If you must to stand by the door (which should only be if you're leaving at then next stop), then step aside or step out to allow passenegers to enter and exit.
2) "in-the-ear" headphones should be inserted into the ear. If someone else can hear your music, then the headphone is not in your ear.
3) respect other passenegers' privacy by keeping your voice at a normal volume, and speak as if you were speaking to your grandmother (i.e.: no curse words).
4) give up your seat to a pregnant or elderly person, or someone's young children.
What about the millionaires tax, which Gov. Paterson has ruled out categorically?
The overwhelming sense I get is that Paterson thinks he governs New York in the service of the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
He needs a lesson in whether he can win the State of New York if he loses Queens and Brooklyn.
The subway is more than 100 years old and for that entire time crossing the East River bridges has been free. Only in this time of irresponsible political leadership, after the repeal of the Communter Tax and the defeat of Congestion Pricing, is it proposed that that be changed.
Let's face it. The reason the MTA is in Financial trouble is because of debilitating debt payments on borrowing during the Pataki adminstration.
I propose cancellation of the $7.2 Billion (before cost overruns) East Side Access Capital Project that will connect Grand Central to Penn Station. The money freed up could be used to make the debt payments, and thus the operating budget of the MTA would be in good shape.
Here's my question: How does the Manhattanite who doesn't own a car and walks to work help support the system that is at his/her disposal? It seems to disproportionately hit non-Manhattan residents.
This plan is ridiculous. There is one thing, nobody is talking about. Re-institute the commuter tax. They use the subway, but don't pay the payroll tax we pay for it, nor the portion of our property taxes that contribute to it. My dad paid it for 35 years and nary a peep. I paid it for the short time when I graduated college before moving to Brooklyn. It would bring in $750 million dollars, more than half the shortfall. cities all over the country have one, including Yonkers. Yonkers for pete's sake. What infrastructure do they pay for?
Instead of East River Tolls why can't we put in a $5 surcharge on parking in manhattan from 6am to 6PM - Less bureocracy than building toll booths
What will the traffic be like in Brooklyn and Queens? The approaches to the bridges and tunnels currently were built to handle tolls. None of the proponents to this plan never discuss this. When they do, they say that everyone will use EZPass. This is a pipe dream. All of you people who live in Brooklyn and Queens will be in for a nasty traffic surprise.
When the traffic backs up to Brownstone "lefty" Brooklyn, then people will care.
Throwing more money into the MTA does not guarantee improvement in public transit - You cannot continue to throw more money at the MTA until you reform how it operates and institute accountability. There is currently no accountability or transparency
would someone please address the effect placing tolls on the east river bridges will have on traffic? will everyone be forced to use ez-pass? if not, what effect will slowing down traffic to pay tolls have on AM and PM commutes (already the longest in the country)? also, what effect will slowing down traffic to pay tolls also have on air pollution--in light the mayor's effort to make NYC green?
The commission worked with Bloomberg people who are dead set on instituting a huge big brother bureocracy to control, monitor and charge people going into and through the wealthy core of Manhattan.
There is NO creativity in that commission
I don’t own a car, but something doesn’t quite sit right with tolling the bridges. I was for congestion pricing, but targeting the East River bridges does heavily burden the people of Brooklyn (and the Staten Islanders who already pay one toll on the Verrazano.)
It will be a big burden, but I’m not too bothered by the fair increase. Maybe even up to $3 for the base fare. But in doing so, the City should get something back in return. Perhaps we could treat the fair increase the same way the TARP Program is run. Drastically increased fairs equals increased city “ownership.” The city should get a much stronger(if not majority) say in operations and budgets in the MTA.
And on cut service… I never really understood the novelty of trains like the W that abruptly stop in lower Manhattan running essentially empty through half of their Manhattan routes during evening rush. I often wait for the R that seems to run 1 R to every 1.5-2 Ws that pass in the evening. The same with the E, which should have a shortened Manhattan route. Some of the current routes (like the G not meeting the R @ 4th and 9th in BK) just seem senseless.
The MTA has been mismanaged for decades and whenever they get in trouble they come to riders and drivers. This plan is ridiculous! What about the small business that needs to go into Manhattan for its livelihood? Nonsense! Nonsense!
Marty Markowitz needs to switch to decaf. So now everyone who wants a more sustainable approach to car traffic is advocating that every commuter should bike? I don't think so, Marty. Adequate public transportation isn't some hippy pipedream.
Mr. Suozzi, Why weren't there investments in the 90s and during Bloomberg's 8 years? What happened with the large amounts of money thrown into the MTA. - I agree we need to invest in public transit - but it wasn't done when the times were good. Therefore, you need to have transparency and accountability before you continue to throw more money into this corrupt bureocracy
I can understand being passionate about your position and your constituency, but why is Marty Markowitz so rude?
I pay a very hefty toll to commute from the Bronx to Queens each day. Please ask Mr. Markowitz why commuters like me should pay so much more to support the MTA than his residents. Unlike most Brooklynites commuters like me don't have a feasible subway route as an option.
Seriously, where is all the money going? MTA must have 4 million riders a day and they have been cutting service and raising fares. Honestly I have not seen much improvement on the trains or train stations.
Raise the tolls and fares, but offer a once per day reduced fare / toll for those who need to cross a bridge or take a bus / subway to get to and from work.
Raise tax on people in Manhatten who own cars for luxury and not for transportation for work.
Put the congestion tax into effect to try to curb personal luxury vehicles
Offer tax incentives for those who walk / ride bicycles, etc. (Those who are lowering their carbon footprint).
Also add financial incentives for car pooling.
Make Marty shut up for a second and listen.
So Marty, as a straphanger I have to carry the burden of fare hikes but motorists don't?
All of these people who live in Brooklyn never say where they live in Brooklyn. I know where they live, BROWNSTONE BROOKLYN. They hate the folks in Bay Ridge!!
Bobby G Post #4 - you are DEAD ON RIGHT!> Until we address accountability and transparency in how all of this borrowing was misused we cannot throw additional money to the MTA.
The MTA has a bad reputation of misusing funds. Did the commission examine the MTA books and look at the misspending of funds as well as the selling of assets like the Vanderbilt Yards for way too little money. Let's cut the MTA fat before charging the people more.
Two sides to the problem
1. REVENUE - Pay for use. The answer should be make the beneficiary BUSINESS pay for the cost of getting their employees to the workplace. Why should the worker pay a payroll tax that allows his employer to be able to pay less wage because the worker gets to work cheaper than cost.
2. SPENDING See the recent stories about WASTE in the MTA. Contracts with unions that were too generous. The MTA acted as if the revenue side was totally flexible in absorbing ANY rate increases.
The tolls should be in LEAVING Manhattan. Then the East side would bear the traffic impact. What difference does it make if the toll is collected going out. Yes you could get from LI to NY without a toll but you have to return.
We live in Manhattan, but own a minivan to transport our 2 small children and all their stuff on weekends. Are we going to pay to leave Manhattan, pay to re-enter, or both?
while we're discussing this, if you're going to have e-z pass lanes at toll booths, let's get rid of the little gates that go up and down - if it's working without gates on the NJ Turnpike and and Garden State Parkway, why not on the Throggs Neck Bridge, etc?
What about the congestion that tolls on the bridges will cause?
I reverse commute, driving from Williamsburg to Queens everyday. I can't imagine what the BQE will be like when there are tolls at the bridges.
I'd rather pay a gas tax or something that will tax my money, not my time.
what happened to the idea of an egalitarian city? This will segregate people
What about the parking in Brooklyn? Today, the streets around Brooklyn subway stations are polluted with cars belonging to people who commute from Long Island, SI, etc, park on the street by the subway, and take the train into the city. Those kinds of commuters will likely multiply at an alarming rate under this plan. Brooklyn just isn't designed for that kind of traffic/parking increase.
Leo in Queens, Why not do what I’ve proposed? Allow the base fare rate to spike, and with that put de facto control of the MTA back into the hands of the City. True, the city didn’t pay for it, but the money is coming from the same source… the taxpayers/riders. The MTA should be accountable for every penny, nickel, quarter, and dime they spend.
what happened to the idea of an egalatarian city? This will segregate people
Rosie Perez for mayor!
Question: Which great metropolitan areas in the industrialized countries charge for crossing rivers within their borders? When I was in London decades ago, I don't recall tolls on the bridges, but I didn't have a car very often. I was discussing this with a neighbor from Europe and he said he wasn't aware of any European cities which make their populations pay a toll to cross a river going through their cities.
So, any listener/commenters know of cities which do what NYC does?
I always thought the rational behind the tolls over the Hudson was to capture revenue from non-New Yorkers. And that was also why the brideges across the East River did not have tolls, so that city residents could travel within the city. Their city.
Appreciate learning more about this.
Who will this hurt? Small tradespeople, those without much money who can still afford to live in Manhattan and will be hit with higher charges from those small tradespeople. Of course, there are those who argue that only those who can afford Manhattan should live in Manhattan. Eh.
I love this subject. It's a study in elitism. Marty and Rosie represent the people in real Brooklyn. Andrea, be honest, this is a tale of the 2 faces of Brooklyn.
I use public transportation to commute to my job at a non-profit organization every day. I certainly fear fare hikes and I want to encourage use of public transportation. My concern about the toll is this: As a single woman living alone, I sometimes take taxis home late at night out of safety concerns (more about the walk from the subway to my apartment than the subway itself). Are taxis now going to refuse to take me home, or charge me something like $6 extra per ride? It seems incredibly unfair to force people like me -- who don't take taxis regularly or generally drive around when we could be using subways -- to choose between feeling safe and being able to afford a ride home.
My vote: ALL of the mentioned funding streams!
Lets stop just trying to barely close the MTA budget, and actually give it the extra money to run the system right --- i.e. more frequent service off-peak on the trains, expanded routes, and paying off debt service.
Also, drivers need to stop saying that the burden is falling on them. It's actually the other way around. I don't own a car and I never have, and yet my tax dollars go to funding the vast infrastructure that is being used primarily by cars... not to mention the environmental costs. Cars are one of the most subsidized ventures in our society, and in relation to that, transit is subsidized one of the least.
When will bicyclists and pedestrians be charged to use the bridges? Missing a great revenue stream right there!
Rosie Perez makes a good point(!): maybe it's true statistically that households using cars make more money, but surely there are many households with working poor drivers who can't take the train. Could they get a tax credit or something to alleviate the burden on them?
This is the same Tom Suozzi who wanted to introduce congestion pricing on the Long Island Expressway. The more you pay, the faster you go.
well great... so now we will have to pay no matter which way we go from nassau co into manhattan?!!!! well here is one problem: the lirr doesnt run all night... if i get out of a concert at 1am the next train is at 3am!!! not really fair is it? by the way... the east river bridges DO connect nassau co to manhattan unless you swim... i would love to take the train & i do when i can but sometimes its not feasable... unless you add more trains at night... & during non rush hour times etc... when i lived in greenpoint & harlem i rode my bicycle & took trains everywhere... the lirr does not serve in a way that is fair or convenient im sorry to say not to mention it is VERY expensive
Yeah, let's charge the bike riders!!! I bet no one in Brownstone Brooklyn would like that.
oh, come on rosy. for all those who HAVE to drive a car, there are plenty more who CANT drive a car because they can't afford to. if you drive a car you should pay for that priveledge because you're using a form of transportation that is environmentally destructive.
This is unrelated to the Ravitch Report; I think Andrea Bernstein is great. But, I hope Brian Lehrer feels better. He's been ill for some time.
Woah this is intense. Way to moderate Andrea!
Bill at #21. I live in Brooklyn, and I will tell you where. I'm in Park Slope, yes brownstone Brooklyn, and no I don't hate people in Bay Ridge. Logistically, these tolls would be a nightmare. There is no place for tolls. Can you imagine the back-up? There are huge swaths of Brooklyn and Queens that don't have access to public transportation. Everyone talks about Brooklyn. What about queens? last time I checked the 59 Street Bridge crosses the East river. almost 2/3 of queens doesn not have subways. they are two fare zones with express buses which is about the equivalent of a toll anyway.
What is tom Suozzi doing here? He doesn't represent a signficant amount of people who use these bridges. Most queens commuters who don't use the train use the tunnel which already has a toll.
I agree with Leo from Brooklyn and other commenters who say that the City can't continue to give MTA more and more money and put it on the residents of NYC to pay for that. The MTA seems to be the most inefficient, bureaucratic-run organization ever with poor quality and service! All I can think of is the $900 million dollar "surplus" they had a couple of years go and instead of putting it toward the future they lowered the cost to $1 and now they are in a $1 billion deficit?
what about the taxi drivers -- have they included any measures to alleviate the burden it will put on THEM?
No toll booths?? Why don't they do this on all of the other toll bridges if it's such a great idea? This is the great lie.
EZ pass.... So? Tourist? Family visiting? People passing throught to get to LI? What happens when non-residents of the tri-state area need to use an East River Bridge and don't know of these tolls? WHat about people in rental cars? This no toll booth solution sounds silly.
We live in the Great South Bay area of Long Island. My husband commutes on LIRR an hour and a half each way daily. He pays a fortune for his monthly rail pass. And he has to switch trains from the electric rail to the diesel rail. There are already too few trains that run out to us. And he takes the subway from Penn Station within Manhattan. At his company he is part of a profit sharing system of the overall company's profits. We rely on the twice annual "bonus" to pay our bills and we have consistently seen it dramatically less than we need to get by. Payroll taxes are not just going to hurt anonymous corporations, but potentially individuals trying to make mortgge payments. Fair hikes hurt people already commuting well away from the city, areas not covered by the guests today. Drivers add to congestion, pollution and choas in the city and hard working people supporting the mass transit system and small business workers relying on profit sharing should not be taxed out of Manhattan so people can stay on the road and continue to contribute to the city's air quality and congestion woes. And yes, the entire MTA needs to be completely overhauled from a management perspective.
While its true that some people have to use cars to commute to manhattan, anyone who has ever worked in lower Manhattan knows that a good number of people use their cars to commute from Brooklyn sheerly for convenience, from neighborhoods like brooklyn Heights, Park Slope, Greenpoint, etc.
As with water bills and outstanding traffic tickets, I doubt that there will be much success in collecting bills from people without credit cards and people from out of town.
Question: is Rosie Perez running for office in Brooklyn? If not, she should.
$5 each way??? this is absurd.
parents that send their children to public schools in manhattan would now cost $20/day (note- the only 3 gifted & talented schools in nyc are in manhattan)
removing the j train & adding a fare for the williamsburg bridge- how are people going to get around?
having to take a train home late at night & then walk the 10 blocks home is simply just dangerous.
I love ya Rosie, but I don't think it's fair that she is suddenly an "expert" on this and hijacks the show.
As a driver who lives in the North Bronx and supported congestion pricing, east river tolls are the worst idea to support mass transit. One of the reasons I go to Brooklyn/Queens is because I do not have pay the toll in my car and it takes me 2+ hours by train (not off-peak times). Also, the revenue from these tolls are going to come when? How is mass transit going to be improved in time for people to take advantage of getting out of their cars? Won't this create even more bus/train crowding while we're waiting for the toll income? Also, isn't there some law about being able to reach City Hall from any borough free of charge?
How does putting tolls help the environment? If most of the people driving used mass transit, then yes. But what if many people continued to drive/had no choice but to continue. Toll booths lead to congestion, cars idling etc. which increases the amount of pollution.
Comment about bikers and walkers was sarcasm. However, I can see it coming, given the grasping at straws for revenue streams.
But, I do see this as another way to Balkanize the city of New York. I mean, if you can't have free and equal access within your own city, why not Balkanize everywhere?
I thought smooth flowing transportation and access was important to a well-functioning economy...but I am not an economist (altho' I did see that when the median income remains steady or even falls slightly and the median price of a house kept soaring clearly that situation was unsustainable in the long run)
Thank you Josh #45.
Did I just hear someone say every city should have limited access to enter and charge for it?
Gee, walled cities of the Medieval era, anyone?
So moderne.
Rosie has it right... if you move to Red Hook it is almost essential to have a car. I feel that no one should have to pay this.
have you taken L train during rush hours?? it is way beyond capacity.
tolls? pls...
hey rosie how many people are driving a car and don't have a credit card? LOL You're funny.
Attn: This goes out to all the yuppies who live in neighborhoodslike Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Dumbo, Fort greene, brooklyn heights, prospect heights You have great train service. Everything stops in your neighborhood and if it didn't you all would raise holy hell. The rest of Brooklyn doesn't have it so lucky and driving into manhattan might cut an hour of your trip. Get up pne morning and find out how hard people in Mills Basin have it. Go to brownsville and take the two buses to get to a train. What I am saying is that when people speak about brooklyn they are not talking about you so shut your pieholes and go walk your dogs
With regard to people too disabled to take mass transit; why are we paying tons of money to access-a-ride? I thought that was what the access-a-ride program was for.
Adding tolls to the Brooklyn & Manhattan & Queensboro bridges would be the best thing for the city. It would encourage carpooling, reduce unnecessary trips and add fairness to the system with regard to triboro bridge and tunnel commuters. It may sound harsh, but we WANT to discourage driving into Manhattan. As we reduce the number of cars in NYC, the City will become more livable and beautiful.
Most of Rosie Perez arguement was based on an old ploy to stir the pot: Class Envy. Is enjoying Mahattan night life really a constitutional right that we have to preserve for all brooklynites? Also, If your having a medical emergency you should go to your closest hospital based ER not Manhattan!
Isn't mass transit part of the inferstructure?
Isn't NYC part of the USA?
Shouldn't the federal government be expected to do SOMETHING for us?
The Transit system should be payed for by everyone including those who live in Manhattan. How do Manhattanites participate in this plan? We should raise the income tax and be done with it!
The average income in Manhattan has got to be higher in Manhattan than Brooklyn so it seems to me that if you can afford Manhattan you don't have to pay. It really amounts to a tax height for the rich.
I would support a total ban for cars in Manhattan during certain hours with the exception of necessary vehicles and taxis. This exception would include the disabled.
Also, there is the problem of people who have to get from Brooklyn to New Jersey and points west where there is no mass transit. We would have to pay twice - once for the East River and than the Hudson.
Thank you,
M
There are many parents that have to send their kids to schools in Manhattan & a lot of these parents live in areas where there isn't direct transportation. It is already a burden for these parents to spend so much time driving just to ensure that their children are given a decent education but to burden them even further with $20 a day toll cost is cruel.
The citywide Gifted & Talented schools are ALL located in Manhattan- & the only one downtown being on East Houston Street.
Just a comment on the moderating. Why is Rosie Perez allowed to go on and on, repeating the exact same arguments over and over, without being interrupted by the moderator? Her points were fair, but we got them the first time she made them. Enough already.
It's easy to assume that most people driving into Manhattan for work can afford an additional toll (they can already afford a car, right?). What percentage of daily commuters using the free bridges represent "lower income" drivers who drive out of necessity?
Steven Erickson (#63)- I have a car & do not have a credit card.
The outer boroughs will be converted into Manhattan's parking lots as commuters will make the practical choice of taking the subway from the extremities. If you thought your neighborhood's current parking situation was a nightmare that could not get any worse, just wait until after this matter is decided by politicians who will NOT have to personally deal with this nightmare, as will not 99% of their constituents.
Furthermore, our intelligence is being insulted by those who don't think we have the memory to realize that this is a second assault end-run by those who have a vested interest in ramming congestion pricing down our throats, primarily the largest lobby in New York State, the real estate lobby. This, along with that "Train to Nowhere" 2nd Avenue subway, is merely another step in converting Manhattan into millionaires' Fantasy Island.
I get sick to my stomach every time I hear the MTA cry wolf about their poverty. I have not yet heard anyone from Albany confront them about their duplicitous book keeping, and how we really do not get to know EXACTLY how much they have. What we do see is the de luxe lifestyle of those at the top, and the decades of poor maintenance of the stations the rest of us use. We also see how MTA real estate is virtually given away-- undervalued for developer friends of the MTA Board. Look at this latest deal for the rail yards-- how does an allegedly cash strapped state agency accept a lease deal where [if I remember this correctly] $20 billion will be paid out over decades. Why are WE, the riding public, essentially carrying the paper for this developer? Let him get his own loan for his upfront lease payments. I seem to recall the underpricing of a previous deal for the land. Isn't ANYONE looking [except to see what last few coins are in our pockets]?
1) If train crowding is a problem, will it not become more of a problem when people stop driving into manhattan? With service cuts and longer wait times, is this really what we want?
2)A large portion of Brooklyn and other outer boroughs do not have easy subway or bus access and will increasing their commute time positively effect them by forcing them to take an inefficient means of transport? For a person in red hook, that doesn't seem very beneficial.
3) If we are using the environment as a reason for cutting car traffic, couldn't we just make it more beneficial to drive more efficient, greener cars, or tax people who drive Hummers?
Overall, this is NYC and we are a creative bunch. It seems pretty uninspiring to hear this kind of solution as the end-all be-all. After 6 months of talks, I am unimpressed. Is this really the best we can do? I mean, come on, anyone could have come up with a toll solution...
I feel like it is just a hidden agenda to get congestion pricing in under the auspice of helping the subway system. To be frank it seems like it will do anything but create more problems rather than solving problems. Our trains are overly crowded, and our answer is to cut service, increase the wait time, and create a tax for those who have to drive to make their living. That is, as the saying goes, 'cutting off your nose to spite your face.'
I hear ya Stu @ #2!
If we're going to become more wedged in the Subway, then people do need to abide by the rules in place and common etiquette. But seriously, have you ever tried to point out to someone that their music is too loud in their earphones only to have them turn around and argue with you? Nobody works to socialize the younger people in this city because it's not worth the agro. Their parents don't care and many of them have such a warped sense of entitlement. I call the hours between 3-4:30 pm the Witching Hour because that's when the little pigs get out of school.
My comment is about Kate Slevin. She presents herself in a very condescending, divisive, and elitist manner. Please advise her that to understand the inhabitants of the city she claims to represent, she needs to get herself dirty and actually go into the communities where she can speak and interact with the people. Census reports are NOT representative of the city in general. As many individuals opt out or are simply unavailable to provide information to census takers.
On this issue I am in agreement with Marty Markowitz. As a car owner, a slight tax on gas and a small increase in car registration fee I can accept if those funds are dedicated to transit.
I would also be in favor of congestion pricing it is design to reduce midtown and downtown congestion and not be a catch all for all motorist. I.e: Fees are captured within the congestion zone and not at the bridges. If a driver is taking the bridge to go the FDR drive to get to the GWB, then its unfair to charge that driver a congestion fee.
For example a driver seeking to travel to NJ via Canal Street and the Holland Tunnel would incur no charge. But upon turning north or south would incur congestion pricing. Other roadways can be made exempt from congestion pricing as long as driver remain on a strict route. Drivers from the upper-westside, wanting to travel to NJ via the holland tunnel, might be require to drive along the West Side Highway to Canal. But should they cross Hudson St incur a congestion pricing charge.
These ideas are not bad as long as they are implemented in an equitable manner.
Alternative ways to raise money
1) SELLING more and better ADVERTISING SPACE ON THE WALLS OF THE SUBWAYS;
2) MAKING one RADIO station LISTENABLE FROM THE SUBWAY AND SELL ADVERTISING (also useful to broadcast emergency, delays, etc.)
3) ALLOW THE USE OF INTERNET ON THE SUBWAY BUT HAVE PEOPLE REGISTER ... AND PAY SOMETHING or see advertising
4)IF TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE ALLOW CELL CALLS FROM THE SUBWAY AND CHARGE EXTRA FOR EACH CALL,
5) ORGANIZE MORE RETAIL, WHEREVER POSSIBLE AND RENT SPACE to the best paying tenants
6) BUY THE LAND OF NEW AREAS WHERE THE NEW SUBWAY STOPS ARE PLANNED AND DEVELOP BUILDING IN ITS IMMEDIATE VICINITY
I come from Milan (Italy) and I have noticed that in the subways here there is almost no advertising and very minimal retail . Why not exploit this possibility before asking more money to the riders?
Regarding post 68 - I meant "tax cut for the rich", Sorry!
I heard a rumor that resident parking was going to be offered to outer boroughs residents as a sweetener. Just a rumor.
M.
There aren't going to be any toll plazas, guys. I think we need to get that out of the way. Tolls can be collected without them and it already happens in London, Canada, parts of New Jersey, Illinois...
The reason this might seem strange to New Yorkers is that the MTA has some of the most old-school tolls in the region. They still use gates! But it's very possible to do away with them.
Is it just too much to ask for them to actually trim the enormous fat from the MTA (reduce the enormous payroll and pension costs) and to actually automate the system like almost every other major metro rail system in the word outside of the 3rd world?!
I mean the bottom line is people in NYC pay the most taxes, the highest tolls, the largest business taxes, etc in the nation. How many more people and businesses do they want to chase out of the area?! Particularly during these times.
People just don't have anymore money to throw down the hole that is the NY/NYC government bureaucracy.
We've got a poll running on this topic this morning. As of 11:20 a.m., there were 94 votes in favor of the tolls and 124 against:
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/12/adding_tolls_to.php
New York has a history, not unlike the rest of the US, of making money through loop holes, off the backs of poor and uneducated people and plain old stealing.
These fare hikes and service cuts just seem like the result of mismanagement and elected officials passing the buck over and over again. Why does this happen? Because we don't get off our behinds enough and protest!!!!!!
Marty Markowitz decided before he was part of the discussion just which side he was going to be on. I agree that MOST of the people who come in from Brooklyn and Queens take the train. You'd be either very rich or foolish with your money to take your car into work everyday. Those people who have car dependent lifestyles (I also live in Bay Ridge but think I'd fit better into Park Slope) stay in the borough. I think he was barking one note and that to increase the fares any more will not be better than this Bridge tolling.
Hurrah for Rosie. I am brooklyn born and bred but lived elsewhere for a dozen years, but have been back in Brooklyn sine 1980, and not Brownstone Brooklyn, either. Even in my childhood my father was railing against the secrecy and bloated salaries of the MTA governors.
Most countries try not to treat citizens unfairly, but not ours! We relish in the idea of sticking it to the non-elites.
This plan is truly an outrage, as is congestion pricing. Sheer neoliberalism, passing costs on to small people--users, generally, rather than forcing businesses to subsidize the system on which their operations depend. Mayor Mike has been hot to charge citizens money wherever possible, while snagging perks like super luxury sports boxes for himself.
Most city-based commenters here are right on target. And only fantasists think that the city will be greened by adding tolls--show me the money for transit first, then we can think about fees. As Rosie and others pointed out, many people NEED to drive.
Furthermore, when I used to drive to work in Jersey--the only way to get to my job-- I had to cross through Lower Manhattan, then to the Holland Tunnel.
Note that Paterson is in favor of this RATHER THAN asking the Federal government for assistance for mass transit here in the nation's banking capital and largest city. He wants to follow the lead of Schwarzenegger, a Republican....
Brooklynites are crying foul but has anyone mentioned that for the last 40 ??50 YEARS they have PAID NO TOLLS while the rest of us have??? Stop whining and pay your fair share.
This makes me so mad. Tolls to use roads that are convenient are one thing, but if you toll every road from Brooklyn to Manahattan, you dont give people any option. I take the subway every day, but when I work until very late at night it isn't safe to get the subway to my stop. I take cabs, and with this proposal I wouldnt be able to afford it. If taking a taxi to Brooklyn would mean paying round trip tolls of $5 each way - $10. And there would be no way around it. I know a lot of people who would stop going out so much in Manhattan if it meant having to either ride the subway very late or pay so much more for taxis.
Without getting into the inefficiencies of the MTA, which are clearly legion, I suggest that the proposed tolls on the East River and Harlem River bridges be imposed only during the week, and that passage on the bridges be free on the weekends. An overwhelming majority of the residents of the outer boroughs travel to work in Manhattan on mass transit. On the weekends, when they want to bring their families into Manhattan to visit Central Park or one of the museums or whatever the reason, or to travel through Manhattan to New Jersey, they shouldn't be burdened with the extra tolls.
I also think there needs to be some promises that are kept about future increases.
I support the payroll tax proposal of the Ravitch commission, but I also think that we should establish a revenue stream from a re-structured vehicle registration system in which those who own the heavier, less-efficient vehicles (that do not have commercial plates) pay more. This payment should be required of all residents of the State, not just those in the MTA mass transit region. All additional revenues should then be dedicated exclusively to improving fuel-efficient, clean burning mass transit in all regions of the State and should be distributed back to the regions of the State on a proportional basis based on total population.
Why should the people of Brooklyn especially be the fall guys again for Wall St. greed? Proposed bridge tolls represent symbols that we're solving the economic problems. Let the MTA get bailed out by Washington like everyone else.
I worry, like others, about increased traffic jams in our neighborhood from tolls on the bridges. Reducing service on our over-packed subway is unacceptable. If the tolls on the bridges would reduce traffic through our neighborhood by encouraging more subway use, it seems like a good movement toward the congestion pricing idea.
I think we need to get creative, all of the proposals made are simply regurgitations of earlier plans. How about offering new and more expensive ways of advertising? Could we find a new platform for subway advertisements that not only brings in revenue but perhaps creates new jobs? AM New York suggested a new lotto game centered on the MTA. What ideas do you have?
The MTA is effective, it gets millions of people where they need to be day in and day out, it is why I live in New York City. It is important that most New Yorkers can afford to ride the subway, an increase in fares would not only increase the number of people who cannot afford to ride, but would cause a ripple to many other sectors.
If the MTA wants to put some of that burden on Brooklyn it needs to make an effort to increase the efficiency of the system for its residents, more north/south access.
What about the pollution from all of those waiting cars? EasyPass will not help since credit cards might be frozen. In general, the people who commute from the Boroughs, and small, local commercial vehicles are unlikely to have EasyPass.
Tolls on the East River Bridges? Sounds a lot like the mayor is trying to save face after his embarrassing stomping over congestion pricing. Increased vehicle registration fees makes sense. Slight increase in subway fares makes sense. Parking garage sub-fees makes sense. But $5 to cross from one neighborhood of the city to another neighborhood in the same city? I recognize that cars are an easy target - I'm not agreeing with the toll plan, just pointing out how easy a target these bridges are for revenue generation. Why not charge bicycles and pedestrians 25 cents to use the same crossings? What about scooters, motorcycles, mini's, etc? Vehicles whereby the owner have already made great efforts towards responsible non-mass transit means are now to made to pay a premium to move about in their own city? It is unfortunate for certain neighborhoods that must rely on the already tolled crossings. But those crossings are major arteries that are used as much if not more as way ACROSS Manhattan, not into it. OR they are used by commuters from Long Island, Westchester, Connecticut and NJ who benefit from the city on a daily basis but don't bare the same tax burdens as residents. The Brooklyn crossings are mostly used by those who live in the city (once again, not the City of Manhattan but NYC). This is NOT an issue of environmental concerns - that was congestion pricing and it died for lack of merit on the part of the mayor. If it were, there are so many better ways to limit traffic including HOV restrictions during peak hours and benefits for small vehicles and fuel efficient vehicles (none of which were included in the mayors congestion plan). This city has always prided itself on being forward thinking and carries the image of being a leader in urban planning. Our first move towards balancing the MTA's budget is to wake the troll under the bridge? Shame on the mayor.... Shame, shame, shame....
Go Rosie!!! Thank you for standing up for us.
Who really benefits from the MTA project linking Grand Central to Penn Station? Commuters! So let them contribute a little bit instead of getting free rides off the backs of little old ladies who have to take car service to the City for a doctor's appointment!
Seriously, since we're in a "crisis", EVERYBODY needs to chip in not just ppl from Brooklyn/outer-boroughs.
Anita was in today for Brian, and the guests were not informed on the facts they were preaching.
The tolls on the east river bridges are back door congestion pricing or tax as we call it.
The many arguments raised by callers and guests on the show were based on false premises or straw-man positions.
Pick one, say environmental. 81% of the air pollutants do not come from vehicles. This is in the Mayor's own congestion report! Thus only 19% from cars which will be reduced to less than 10 percent within the nest five years as more hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles replace the current taxi's, livery cars and the general population.
Congestion, hmmm, Let's think about this knee jerk reaction to that word. Yes we have congestion, especially this time of year. But if there are less cars coming into the city each day for the last three years, then why more congestion? Answer: the Mayor installed muni-meters all over the city where they didn't exist clogging mid-town streets where before that parking was forbidden east and west bound on one side of the street, thus we had two lanes of traffic on the side streets. Parking was after 7pm. Now, we have only one lane of traffic clogged by illegally and legally parked vehicles. We have cut the traffic lanes in half. So for the few million in muni meter revenue we loose billions(according to the congestion tax report) sitting in traffic.
How can the congestion be worse with less cars coming in unless we are managing traffic worse?
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Why when the MTA has had record ridership after the last fare increase for many years now are they in a financial mess? Where's their accountability for managing the MTA? Where has all the money gone? Why should the drivers which are a small percentage of New Yorker's and as one caller rightly pointed out, already carry very high costs to operate a vehicle here in the city, why should the cars owners pay for the MTA? I hear no credible answer for that? This is not a popular vote argument because there are many more people without cars in NYC. That argument is ridiculous. Why not have the 75% without cars who use the MTA subsidize it directly as this large majority that can all share in the burden?
The mayor's own study on the congestion Tax idea, pointed out a little known fact that only about 12-15% OF THE VEHILCES will actually pay the tax or toll anyway. The rest of the vehicles coming in to the city each day are government operated, subsidized, partially subsidized and or corporate subsidized, leaving the majority from Brooklyn, then Queens, SI and the surrounding areas less so, in the 12-15% mix that are stuck carrying the burden.
Ex Vp and spokesperson Small Business Congress
While there has been a reduction in illegal parking placards there are still tens of thousands of cars clogging the city with parking permits that don't need them. There are an estimated over 100,000 government related cars that also questionably drive in each day too.
We have lost more small businesses under this Mayor than any other in NYC history with policies favoring big box, big developers and big money. The tolling of the bridges will be more cost on the backs of the working and middle class who need to drive for whatever their reasons. The subways and buses can't handle current loads now, even if those in areas who must drive, were to somehow get out of their cars.
Tolls will force small businesses to pass along this cost right into every good and service in every neighborhood.
I would like to discuss this with you anytime. It was great to hear Rosie Perez call in from Brooklyn. I live further out in Sheepshead Bay, the home of the Annual Celebrity Caroling Toy Drive Sunday Dec 21st from 5-7pm at St Mark RC in Sheepshead Bay featuring the great lead guitarist from Vanilla Fudge, Vince Martell!
Lastly, shame on the Mayor and the Governor if this is the best they can come up with in 6 months.
All of us here can sit down and do better in one week! The Bloombuck Mayor is pushing his ELite NY in place of Unique NY and wants his Congestion Tax one way or another. Don't give it to him. There are many other alternative measures, too long to type here. One Hint:$10-15 Billion in Federal transportation money available each year since 1992 and NYC didn't even apply for it!
We should not pit drivers against non drivers, we all need each other and need to work together! Happy Holidays to all..NO TOLLS PLEASE!
I was on this show this morning and I found it very offensive that Rosie Perez assumed that because I was speaking in support of Ravitch's plan, I was a wealthy "trendy person" who lived in downtown Brooklyn.
I live in Lefferts Garden (northern Flatbush, southern Crown Heights) and I work at a small non-profit that promotes equitable transportation policies. She is a movie star who lives in Fort Greene, or Clinton Hill, with no background in transportation policy.
Fight issues on their merits, Rosie, not with pointless stereotypes and anecdotes.
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