On Demand
30 Issues: Race, Beyond Affirmative Action
Charles Blow, New York Times's visual Op-Ed columnist, and Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center and author of America Against the World : How We Are Different and Why We Are Disliked (Times Books, 2006), review American attitudes toward race, as evidence by polling.
Then
Dr. Cornel West, the Class of 1943 Professor at Princeton University, author of
Race Matters, and most recently,
Hope on a Tightrope: Words and Wisdom, (Hay House, 2008) and Maria Hinojosa, managing editor and host of NPR's
Latino USA and senior correspondent for the PBS newsmagazine NOW, and
Abigail Thernstrom, senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute in New York, the
vice-chair of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights and co-author with her husband of No Excuses: Closing the Racial Gap in Learning (Simon & Schuster, October 2003), discuss the state of race relations in the U.S.
Then
Spoken word artist Kelly Zen-Yie Tsai asks why in "national conversations about race" the viewpoints of Asian Americans often are left out.
What specific topics should a national conversation about race include? Comment below!
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Basically, I have a rather different take on Obama: I disagree with him on virtually all the issues that matter to me: he's pro death penalty, anti universal single payer health care, anti gun control, pro faith-based initiatives, voted for FISA, wants to send more troops to Afghanistan (and possibly Pakistan), and more. The only reason I can think of to vote FOR him is that he is black--I think it would be good for the country to have a black president. Nonetheless, at the moment I am tending toward Nader, in my Don Quixote effort to move the Democratic party back from the right, where they have followed the Republicans. (If it matters, I am a white middle-aged woman.)
I've got a 7 year old and a 1 year old -- obama's candidacy makes my kid sized explanations to the 7 yo of the narrative of "black america" different than the one my 1 yo will get... Much more in line w what we consider "american values" to be.
and each sentence of explanation of this race to the 7 yo is one i'm proud of and relieved to deliver.
Hey, did you see Barack's "redistribution" record in a public radio interview posted this morning on the Drudgereport.com. I think this will hurt Obama more than Joe the plumber did.
Why aren't East Asians and South Asians part of this segment?
Any useful conversation about race in America must start with the acknowledgement that in 20-30 years white people will not be the majority in this country.
Once we can be honest with ourselves about this fact - that today's white children will not be entering adulthood assured of their demographic dominance - the assendecy of, for instance, a black president, becomes something more than feel-good symbolism.
Here's a relevant question (from a White listener)
If the (Y2000) BS vote in florida (proven wrong the next year...) votes a state republican
Does anyone else have the fear of a MUCH much more vocal backlash?
I for one, this time, will NOT go and accept a McCain victory in this manner silently.
interestingly enough, there was a ATC piece last week in which white voters from York, PA, expressed concern of riots...
What concerns me is that in 2000, as well as 2004 there were documented lapses/black hat tricks performed by republican leaning operatives.
If this happens, will we have a new "un-civil" war?
hmmm
I think it is that affirmative action must be revisited especially if Obama wins. If a black man can not only run for president but actually win, well that tends to undermine the underpinnings of affirmative action and the frankly, negative reasons for its existence.
On another level I had a letter published in the Star-Ledger recently that read as follows:
"I am not voting for Barack Obama. But I will cry if he is elected. I will cry because I will be so proud of my country. I will be humble at what this will mean to so many people around the world. And I will smile because we don’t just talk the talk.
I came to this realization a continent away. It says everything you need to know about America and Americans because I know I would not be alone. We will pray for the president no matter who he is and we will hope that he can succeed for us."
America is the dream. Everyone, everywhere wants and needs the dream. With apologies to Obama, why change?"
Race has mattered in this country for over 400 years. This is our chance, finally, to make it matter in a positive way.
Oh, and by the way, my vote, my wife's vote, my son's vote is going to who we hope will be the next president, Barack Obama. I hope to cry on election day.
I really think the idea of "a national conversation about race" is outdated. It is a relic of the 1990s: political correctness and the Clinton-era. (Remember that rousing "national conversation"? A national council that produced some lame report) I say this as a very liberal African-American female. It takes for granted that there is some way to institutionalize self-reflection, empathy, and curiosity, which are--in my opinion--the necessary elements in the interpersonal work required to tame what headline-writers love to call our "racial demons"...
On the other hand, there are lots of issues involving race that can be addressed through "policy" and not "conversation": the prison-industrial complex? Black and Latino and poor students being targeted for military recruitment?
That racism is still alive and well in American life, even if its expression is not as overt as it was when lynchings were commonplace, is something that African Americans and others who are not white have been saying for years. Yet many (perhaps the majority of) white Americans have refused to acknowledge the continuing impact of ongoing racism.
The documentation (eg by Maria Hinojosa on NOW last week) during this Presidential campaign of the blatantly and unabashedly racist feelings of some white likely voters leaves me, as an African American, with a very strong sense of wanting to say, I told you so.
#4 (RC), The reason East and South Asians aren’t highlighted as part of this segment is because the United States has historically had a “special” relationship with peoples of African descent. Though there is a history with Asians, especially on the west coast, that is quite long, people of African descent have been considered sub-human property, then proportionally human (3/5 human), then human, but a different kind of human, and on. Also, people of African descent are the only people who were imported into the United States as cargo, they were not immigrants, they were not workers hoping for a brighter future, they were not people seeking political or religious freedom.
That leads to my proposed topic: The universal acknowledgement of, and attempt to rectify institutional racism.
I think a lot of people who are uncomfortable with, suspicious of, or just plain hate Barack Obama are not actively racist, per se, but are products of intuitional racism. Similarities (though not necessarily parallels) would be homosexuality in the United States, the historic roles of women in ultra-patriarchal societies, or animosity between people with different religions beliefs.
If Obama is elected, one cannot make a valid argument that racial discrimination has been eliminated and that we do not need to monitor and encourage an affirmative action towards relieving inequalities based on physical differences. There is still a great number of people in decision making positions that are in a position to or retain an anti social bias.
Affirmative action will still be needed to address these problems. Somewhere in the back of the minds of those whites that are racist is a fear that "the other" will replace and exceed them. That fear has always driven white supremacy. If that were to come true affirmative action will protect their position in society as well.
"I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendancy to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change."
Barack Hussein Obama, 2001, interview on WBEZ radio
I think that a national conversation about race cannot have assumptions from the 1950's.
* It is not just about black and white.
* It is not just about oppressors and oppressed.
There are ethnic groups -- even racial groups -- that are neither black nor white, many of which had not significant presence in the United State 50 or 60 years ago. How do we account for Korean-American -- or the wider East Asian-American -- community? What about the South Asian-American community. These are groups that played no role in slavery or even Jim Crow.
Jews are another group who were only in the US in the smallest numbers during slavery, and were also oppressed during the Jim Crow era -- albeit differently and less than blacks.
And so, recognizing that there are many in this country who were not oppressors and whose ancestors were not oppressors, yet were not members of the two groups who were so ridiculously oppressed in American history -- blacks and Native American. They need to be part of the conversation, and a part of the subject of the conversation.
Criminal. Justice. Reform.
It is the huge, shameful issue that never gets talked about because it means appearing to stand up for criminals, and because it disproportionately affects young black men. Which is also exactly why it NEEDS to be talked about. It is really, really a crisis, especially in our inner cities and it sits at the center of a lot of things. Because in order to fix this we'd need to work on a lot of other aspects of urban poverty, racism, policing, the "war on drugs" and the structure and goals of the justice system -- really important stuff.
Whether or not it is too much to ask Obama to carry this load -- to be the first black president and be seen as going out on a limb for convicted drug dealers -- that is another question.
Dear Mr. Lehrer,
Any national conversation about race must begin by honestly asking about being "white" in America. In what ways is being white a form of privilege? I would then that we should look at THE FACTS: what are the conditions of people of color (black, latinos, native americans, asian americans) in terms of educational achievement, income distribution, poverty levels, and other indicators? How are MINORITY communities doing? How are WHITE communities doing?
Susan~
Where are you getting your information?
original source for WBEZ interview
http://apps.wbez.org/blog/?p=372
adn the YouTube version which has, already, been viewed a half million times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck
Barack believes in reparations; this is newsworthy.
Yes, you are correct #13 (Alex from Brooklyn), but there is a flaw, or actually oversight, in your argument. For non European and African people who come to the United States, they are confronted with the reality and history of black/white racism in the country; and they may feel pressured to pick a side. Guess what side they will pick, the oppressors or the oppressed? I’ve met many Asians, South Asians, Spanish speaking People and Middle Eastern people who take on the same animosity towards black Americans that comes from some white Americans. There have been several stories nationally about this affect and whether Senator Obama will have a problem with non European white Americans, specifically Jews, Spanish speaking people, and Asians.
re racism and preferences, which is potentially the biggest issue, whites with a working class background are sometimes tired of all the excuses for poor performance on the part of black kids in school. it may very well be that what is going on IS the legacy of discrimination, but every time someone reminds us that it would be better if black kids copied behaviors that they believe are "acting white" and that parents need to take a more involved approach to their kids (read early etc) - when this happens (ala cosby) a hew and cry comes out of certain elements in the black community. and to be frank, it makes people like me say, if you can't help your own, what the H do you expect out of people like me.
I notice that the primary focus of the show so far has been on racism as a social phenomenon, and shies away from more concrete manifestations of America's difficult history around race. Glaring gaps between blacks and whites, measured by any quality of life standard, remain stubbornly in place, despite major strides in the attitudes of many Americans. Why is that? This interests me much more than what polls say about how much people THINK we have progressed in race relations. Let's talk about the intractable links between poverty and race in this country, and how that falls out in terms of income, assets, health care and education. MUCH more important a topic, in my opinion.
I think that simply having a black president will do more than any policy can. For black people, having a black president will instill new confidence and transform their views about their potential. For all races, having an effective president who is black can only improve any subconscious and/or overtly racist views. The event in itself will cause profound changes.
I think "Inquiring Minds" is scared of the: "the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change."
Like that's a bad thing.
One of the revisionist tendencies of nationalist Americans -- especially conservatives -- is to forget history. As if there was a switch flipped in 1965 after which there was nothing but perfect equity between the races and any other problems you might have were of your own making. As if there aren't deep cultural wounds hundreds of years in the making among both Whites and people of color, especially African-Americans and Native Americans. As if the vast base of wealth in this country isn't based on slave labor and using genocide to take land and make money. As if the exploitation of sharecroppers or illegal immigrants is some whisper from the distant past that could possible have any effect on our lives today.
One quick statistic:
2004 median income among Whites (non-hispanic) was $141,000. Among Non-Whites? $25,000.
So yeah, a little redistribution is in order.
It's a small scope when one looks at racism towards Black America through only a White/Black screen. I have heard very racist, in fact more pre-Civil-rights-style, things coming from people who are not Black American.
Why is that?
On a number of occassions I've heard Obama talk about his immigrant identity. He may not dwell on talking it but he has and does acknowledge that part of him as well as his biracial side which he lives. I don't know what Ms. Hinajosa is talking about.
Oh, and neither Obama nor I are talking about that ridiculous fool's errand, "reparations." But it's interesting that in your mind the word "redistribution," the underlying principal behind all modern tax systems (except that silliest of fantasies, the flat tax) has morphed into that racial spookeyword, "reparations." Why is that?
Haha, Obama's father was an immigrant? That is a laugh and incorrect. He was an African student who went back to Africa after his schooling. Barack himself may be the immigrant as it is likely he was not born in the United States. Maybe that is why he doesn't bring it up! Liberals can't even get your own story right.
Talk doesn't change anything? Isn't that like saying thinking doesn't change anything?...like saying discourse doesn't change anything? I mean words can prevent wars for example. Very strange...
@22 Leo
The argument you lay out is analogous to the one Hitler used against the Jews. This scares me.
Inquiring Minds [17]:
"Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama opposes offering reparations to the descendants of slaves, putting him at odds with some black groups and leaders.
The man with a serious chance to become the nation's first black president argues that government should instead combat the legacy of slavery by improving schools, health care and the economy for all."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2008-08-02-304478546_x.htm
#22 Where's that statistic from? I, and everyone I know lives WAAAAAY below that median income. I am wondering if a more accurate reporting of that statistic might be that of those who earn $141,000 a much larger percentage are White. That I believe.
Doesn’t any fruitful discussion of the impact of race in American life and politics have to start by addressing the fact that what we mean when by ‘race’ is shifting, unclear, and discordant?
Shouldn’t we do everything possible to extirpate the slave economy definition that one drop of black blood makes a person black, which only made sense in a slave economy that wanted to insure constantly growing supply of salable product. Certainly we’ve all known people who came from mixed genetic backgrounds who passed and lived as white.
Aren’t “black” and “white” not genetic but cultural constructs?
Crucially, regarding Barack Obama, although he identifies as “black”, he was brought up as “white”. To me, his identification as “black” seems to be the educated white meaning of “black” rather than the black meaning of “black”, which I expect to show up in the policies of his presidency.
I fail to understand why these conservatives continue to voice the canard that we "know nothing about Obama"... the man has written TWO AUTOBIOGRAPHIES! He is a know quantity! What makes these hacks repeat this is that they are afraid of the very fact that we who are voting for him know FULL WELL who we are voting for. Why, incidentally, is the Manhattan Institute the go-to place for this show? This is yet another instance that shows the intellectual flaccidity of this so-called "think" tank.
No one knows living in a multi-cultural environment better than Barack Obama - remember he grew up in Honolulu - with many mixed races - inter-racial marriages, mixed race marriages, or whatever label is used.
Growing up in Honolulu gives Barack Obama a very unique perspective on the racial aspect of this election.
He is an extraordinay man - period.
National conversation must include recognition of white privilege. Many white Americans simply do not recognize that their skin color offers them any advantage, including the privilege of thinking that there is no racism and that our society and culture have somehow transcended race. There needs to be more information about the history of African Americans from slavery onwards and about the current disparities that persist in health, education and income.
It's likely Obama was not born in the USA? Do you really believe that? Don't you think McCain, if not Hillary months ago, would have brought that up, since, if true, he would be constitutionally barred from serving as President? Come on!
Obama WAS born in the USA. He couldn't run for president otherwise. Presidents MUST be US born.
I am 100% voting for Obama. Mainly because he's young, fired up, has a plan for a majority of Americans and is in politics for the right reasons. He has demostrated this through the work he has done in his life and the world view he expresses.
Seriously, in light of all the grave issues this country is faced with today - is it enough that we elect someone because they are black, and that will redeem us of our racist past?
Obama WAS born in the USA. He couldn't run for president otherwise. Presidents MUST be US born.
I am 100% voting for Obama. Mainly because he's young, fired up, have a plan for a majority of Americans and is in politics for the right reasons. He has demostrated this through the work he has done in his life and the world view he expresses.
[[What specific topics should a national conversation about race include?]]
a national conversation on race is a squishy concept and largely unnecessary. there should perhaps be regional conversations, or perhaps local communities should just own up to their own messes.
in chicago, we have insane amounts of gang violence and most of it is INTRA-racial, blacks killing blacks, latinos killing latinos. we (black people) can't really expect whites to empathize with what's going on in our community unless and until we take ownership of the problem.
a national conversation won't resolve the underlying issues. from a distance, chicago just looks broken. just as, from here, L.A. looks broken.
fix the schools and society will fix itself.
To Abigail Thernstrom: There is a debate among conservative scholars about how public schools can do better by minorities and how taking kids out of the context of their neighborhoods and boarding them during the week might be "better". Should municipal districts consider boarding schools in order to boost minorty performance in public schools? And what do Maria and Cornell think about that and the effects on black and brown families?
Cornell West was very correct in saying that that there is no one "black experience". As a mixed-race young woman, I get flak from white people saying that I'm too black and flak from black people assuming I should have the "black experience". Can't I have my own experience?
Abigail Thernstrom is (surprise!) wrong -- in this case re what Obama said about his grandmother:
"I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/us/politics/18text-obama.html?pagewanted=all
I am an old friend of Professor West's from our undergraduate days at Harvard (and a black Republican supporting Obama).
One salient issue that is rarely acknowledged is that on almost every index of achievement in America, it is clear that black people of immigrant backgrounds far outstrip "native" blacks whose roots lie in the ancient American slave culture.
Obama, Tiger Woods, Colin Powell, and countless others have this characteristic.
Comments?
What tells me most clearly that as a nation we haven't progressed very far in our understanding of the issues of race and prejudice is the fact that Obama is always referred to as an African American when in many ways he doesn't fit the standard definition: his mother was white, his father was African (not African American), and he grew up in a variety of cultures and settings, not in what would stereotypically be considered black culture (i.e. urban, with southern family history and dialect). His background is not what most would consider stereotypically African-American, yet he his still treated as if representative of African Americans. We are talking about him as if melanin were destiny. How sad.
The biggest topic on race is white privilege. The history of white privilege needs to be taught. White's have grown up believing that the world or at least america has always been this way. White America was benefited for affirmative action from 1929-1955. If the knew this then there might not be such a bad taste for Affirmative action.
It might help to recognize that whites in the US have the luxury of ignorance. If a white person gets into the 1st cab that comes along, s/he isn't standing there long enough to see how long the black person has been trying vainly to flag one down. A white person can be shown in to look at an apt. & never know that 15 minutes before, a black person came to see it & was told it was taken. So it can be hard for many whites to understand that the point of view they hear from a lot of blacks is based on their actual experience when most of the time they literally don't see it, & it can be hard for many blacks to understand that the POV they hear from a lot of whites is based on literally never seeing the racism they experience every day.
I think it's also important to acknowledge that combating racism will mean a genuine loss to whites who have benefited from it for so long--loss of an advantage that isn't fair, that they didn't earn or do anything to deserve, but that they take for granted because it's always been that way. For some whites, esp. in the working class, it may be the only advantage they have, & it may feel threatening to see it change, even though it needs to change.
A meaningful advance in the discussion of race can be accomplished if people acknowledge that whereas racism -- that is, the ongoing discrimination on the basis of the concept of race -- is a legacy that needs to be seriously addressed in the US, that race is an utterly false and baseless notion left over from the 19th century which has no basis in truth and has been proved scientifically to be false.
Obama's buddy/mentor has a new book coming out:
Race Course Against White Supremacy by William C. Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Course-Against-White-Supremacy/dp/088378291X/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225121924&sr=1-11
Certainly, THIS is newsworthy.
interesting series of comments here.
Yes, it tends to show that there STILL is some racism on the part (of what I think are) of white voters/commenters here.
President Obama will be a beginning of the end of racial predijuces, not the end
(and go see my markbnj blog for today;s entry if you want more on this topic...
Thank you #32! One benefit of Obama being young is that the record is short. He isn't someone who's jumped in and out of politics, in and out of business dealings, has anything other than this country's system of government and citizenry at heart of his life's work
10:19AM
Why aren't East Asians and South Asians part of this segment?
Because in this country it has always been about black and white. Immigration makes it a latin, black and white issue.
If Obama were to lose, due to supression of votes by the right, I feel a riot may ensue, and as a white male, would feel more than happy to partake.
Vouchers clearly create more disparity unless EVERYONE is going to go to private schools. Since this will likely not happen it seems to me that if we relly want to claim equality in education them all children should go to public school and everyone should get behind the public schools and support them.
That last clip of Obama's shows how common sense- pragmatism and reason- can in fact be injected into politics. The simple rightness of his assessment is a breath of fresh air. He looks past the simple knee jerk response of 'For or Against' to identify real issues and causes.
I would like to see a conversation about the complexities of race within the latino community. The experience of "black" latinos
or indigenous looking latinos is far different than caucasian looking latinos even when you adjust for economic differences.
"Obama's buddy/mentor has a new book coming out:
Race Course Against White Supremacy by William C. Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn
Certainly, THIS is newsworthy."
Only to people who refer to Ayers as "Obama's buddy/mentor."
Please evolve...
I disagree with your guest, we cannot throw out the black and white conversation, especially when immigrants to this country (whether they have been here 60 years or 6 days) adopt the same view towards black Americans as have been endemic to American for the past 400 years.
31 -- mgdu: "Crucially, regarding Barack Obama, although he identifies as “black”, he was brought up as “white”. To me, his identification as “black” seems to be the educated white meaning of “black” rather than the black meaning of “black”, which I expect to show up in the policies of his presidency.
As a biracial person who grew up in a white household, (and as someone who has read Obama's autobiography) I can say that your statement is nonsense.
You can't be "brought up as white." You can only be brought up as yourself. You will absorb much of the cultural capital of your parents, you will absorb the culture around you (your neighborhood, town, city), and you most certainly absorb the dominant culture's opinion about people who look like you. It's not as if you can grow up not noticing that you are Black by anybody's standards. No matter whose house you live in.
I don't know what the "educated white meaning of 'black'" is. I don't know what "the black meaning of 'black'" is. I don't know what policies would follow from that. I don't know really think you've given this serious thought.
Brian: Could you please do a show about innovative theories on education and alternatives for the traditional public schools and minorities?
[[Rob: You may want to check out the recent interview with Geoffrey Canada and the rest of the 30 Issues on education policy. It aired on 9/29 and can be found through the archives link on our show page.]]
The woman of Mexican descent who grew up in Hyde Park (Chicago) whose child is now attending the Bank Street school on the upper west side remarked that her daughter came home and asked why she was the only immigrant in her class. Where did she get that idea? If she was born here, she's not an immigrant.
Abigail and Cornell and Maria all began to have an INCREDIBLE conversation on education and mionorities and innovative approaches away from the mainstream and "no Child Left Behind," but the segment ended. Please tackle the subject at another time ...
Some wisdom on race/color: a little boy questions grandmother about the difference in her and his other grandmother's "color." Listen to a media player audio snippet from the 'person' "claude robert" (author and artist) by visiting: http://mywilliespress.com/index_files/page0004.htm
A MUST HEAR!
#48 (inquiring minds? I wonder...)
sounds quite racist now that I think of it.
Bill Ayers and Wife, are NO longer relevant.
And it was the VIETNAM war, as I am guessing you wouldn't know.
AND I too, protested against the war.
but was too YOUNG (as was Obama) to
take MORE action against the war as some people did.
Go crawl under a rock, and pray that the republican operatives split this country
and cause a new uncivil war in the country
by electing McCain...
In other words, Ayers is a NON-issue.
how about wondering how SARAH will govern if John drops dead?
How about admitting you dont make $250,000 a year, but STILL support the republican BS line about trickle-down because you're too afraid of a black man in the white house.
How about admitting you;d rather have mccain instead of having someone who actually understands economics make VALID proposals.
and most important, how about having someone
who wants to FIX the problems caused by republican DEREGULATION instead of saying he wants to Deregulate MORE...
ehh.
I fail to see why McCain's use of racial slur of Asian-Americans are not important in this context
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml
This woman again is playing the victim card. When she talks about the high rate of suicide among hispanic girls, she totally forgets the research that has been done in the area. There are cultural explanations that explain why hispanic girls "act" out of impulse in what is know as "el ataque". Unfortunetely many of these actions end up in death. Ms. Hijinosa, stop being a "victim" and putting all us hispanic in your race plate
To leoinnyc (#22):
Not sure where you got your figures, but the US Census Bureau reports the following re household income:
Black households had the lowest median income in 2004 ($30,134) among race groups. Asian households had the highest median income ($57,518). The median income for non-Hispanic white households was $48,977. Median income for Hispanic households was $34,241.
#43. I am White so I will not pretend to truly understand any other kind of experience in this country. Since I am able to respond somewhat anonymously, my knee-jerk reaction is that there is an inherent group self-hatred among certain communities in Black America, perhaps namely those who are descendents of those Blacks who came from the legacy of slavery. I feel it's caustic to say this but sometimes I feel it's so true and necessary to look at otherwise we'll continue to have this disparity in wealth, income, and achievement. How does this work in a simpler sense? What happens to your mind when you carry abuse, hatred, mistreatment and a belief you are not beautiful because you were told that? How do you move on as woman in an abusive relationship? Is this group of Black America needing to recover from a violently abusive domestic relationship? I can understand that, by the way.
@56 AWM
sorta like denying the existence of gravity...
B.H.O.s ties to Ayers are numerous, lengthy, and strong.
How many Americans know that Michelle worked at the same law firm as Ayer's wife, Bernardine?
Did you know that?
Wanna bet that is how the Obama's met!?
Woods, Annenberg Challenge, fundraising parties, Chicago Lab School...
One must be in denial to hold the view that they aren't fast friends! Apples still fall from trees!
#61 I think the point was someone told her this at school.
I have heard Obama mention Asians and Native Americans several times in his stump speech. It's lovely to hear an inclusive list that doesn't devolve into "purple, green..."
Asians vote at a very low rate, the lowest acc. the NYT editorial on Acorn & the need for INCREASED voter registration & participation.
In any conversation about race, I think it's important to teach young white people how to participate. My white students are interested but feel disqualified.
The conversation should include, Asians, Germans, Scotts, Japanese, Chinese, Swiss, Italians, Jews, Greeks and ALL of the other immigrants groups that arrived her via the Atlantic Ocean.
brian--correction:
"gooks" was used not just for North Vietnamese, but for all Vietnamese.
#44, Obama perfectly fits my definition of African-American (he can also call himself Kenyan-American) the same way we have Chinese-Americans, Korean-Americans, Irish-Americans, or Mexican-Americans. I prefer using the work Black when referring to Americans of African descent who are also descents of slavery in the United States. I find the term African-American repugnant when referring to black Americans because it wipes out all cultural identity and paints everyone with the broad continental brush of Africans. That’s like saying all Europeans, South Americans, Middle Easterners, or Asians are culturally all the same.
Brian's guest from Racialious (sorry, didn't catch your name & it's not given above--monitor, can you have it added?):
Green? Blue? Silver? What about the polka-dot-Americans? How could you forget about the polka-dots? (Are members of national minorities as tired of references to purple & polka-dots as I am? How about "happens to be [black/Asian/Latino/female]"?)
[[BL Moderator Writes: Please remember to stay on topic to the discussion on the air. Thanks!]]
BORED states: "The biggest topic on race is white privilege. The history of white privilege needs to be taught."
I'm a 51-year-old white male who was raised below the poverty line. I worked at near the minimum wage for 9 years to earn a BA part-time. I've worked for five Fortune 100 corporations. I've never had a job where a woman or a minority who was less skilled and less educated was not promoted before I was. In my current job, I was actually demoted during a merger to allow a minority candidate to advance. I'm not alone on this. What I've never seen, is a white male who had the right connections be brushed aside to make room. The disadvantaged whites, the ones who did have a white privilege, we are the ones who are further disadvantaged by affirmative action. Can you start to understand why there's resistance to affirmative action among the white lower class? It's not just some angry white male syndrome or the last vestiges of racism.
John Sidney McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Barack Obama was born in Hawaii -- it was a state at the time. They are both running for president because they are both qualified to run for president.
#68
What about Sarah Palin, Todd PAlin and the Alaska Independents? This is far more current, and far more alarming.
White privilege--the idea that American society was built around the ideas and values of white people, specifically WASPs (White, Anglo-Saxon Protestants), and continues that way. The assumption in "American values" is the word "white", not "black" or "Jewish" or anything. The result is that white Americans benefit from in all aspects of life in America. Until white America realizes that we have a built-in privilege in our society which ultimately disadvantages all other groups (whether we directly discriminate or not), nothing will change.
#66 Thanks Em from NJ. That makes more sense.
Inquiring Minds - from today:
The argument you lay out is analogous to the one Hitler used against the Jews. This scares me.
From a couple days ago about gun control:
‘‘The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.’’ -- Adolph Hitler
Man, you sure obsess a lot about Hitler. It appears to be your only comeback. Also, it's always a complete non-sequitur (look it up). Nothing I said has ANY analog in the philosophies of Hitler. Why are we even talking about Hitler!!!?? What are you talking about!?
(But you know the funny thing is that I see this all over right-wing dicussion boards. For some reason there is this weird Hitler-lust. It is the comeback to EVERTHING! Pro-Choice? Eugenics! Hitler! Universal Health Care? Socialism! Hitler! Gun Control? Hitler!
Here's a brain-teaser for weird, right-wing gun-nut types: "I love jews!" - A liberal. (Now find some way to make that a sinister, Hitler-ian statement.)
Why am I talking about Hitler at noon? It's too early for this....
Some wisdom on race/color: a little boy questions grandmother about the difference in her and his other grandmother's "color." Listen to a media player audio snippet from the 'person' "claude robert" (author and artist) by visiting: http://mywilliespress.com/index_files/page0004.htm
A MUST HEAR!
Sorry, my previous post [#76] was somewhat garbled. Let me try again:
BORED states: "The biggest topic on race is white privilege. The history of white privilege needs to be taught."
I'm a 51-year-old white male who was raised below the poverty line. I worked at near the minimum wage for 9 years to earn a BA part-time. I've worked for five Fortune 100 corporations. I've never had a job where a woman or a minority who was less skilled and less educated was not promoted before I was. In my current job, I was actually demoted during a merger to allow a minority candidate to advance. I'm not alone on this. What I've never seen is a white male who had the right connections being brushed aside to achieve a modicum of racial parity. Disadvantaged whites, the ones who did not have white privilege, we are the ones who are further disadvantaged by affirmative action. Can you start to understand why there's resistance to affirmative action among the white lower class? It's not just some angry white male syndrome or the last vestiges of racism.
"There is something pernicious about modern black urban culture."
One of the problems with the dialogue on race is the dependence on sweeping generalizations and the labeling of a culture according to the parts that are most focused on because of this country's infatuation with negative imagery (The Sopranos, anyone?).
The symbols of urban culture and the horrible and destructive behavior it encourages thrive because of money. It is encouraged by the need to market a defeatist mindset that sells to people (mostly adolescents) who have few options financially. It mirrors pornography which relies on the need to see the objectification and destruction of women to sate the relentless desire for caricature, violence and domination… for profit no less. It is dependent on the dependence of this country on easy answers, easy labels, instant gratification, and myopia. Rather than focus on the development of individuals, rather than make an effort to investigate and inform ourselves about what makes a poor urban child behave against his or her best interests and that of society as a whole it is easier to just wave them off as part of an inferior culture.
@ 12, et al.
You are assuming that people like me and many millions more don't want some sort of economic "redistributive change."
Essentially, it's your methods (which you've had in every administration since Carter) vs. my methods (which we are beginning to poorly undertake through the Bush Admin. and Paulson in this financial crisis).
Let's get it on bro
Scott from Manhattan states: "Until white America realizes that we have a built-in privilege in our society which ultimately disadvantages all other groups (whether we directly discriminate or not), nothing will change."
Scott: Perhaps nothing will change until you acknowledge that white privilege isn't some advantage uniformly distributed to everyone with a certain skin color. Perhaps nothing will change until people who aren't white can learn to recognize their own racism and start to deal with it.
As an American born child of Trinidad born US citizens who IS the descendant of slaves what intrigues of me is that no one talks about what it means that Obama is NOT the descendant of slaves. Yes, wakling down the street, he is equally vulnerable to anti-Black discrimination ... but, in the home, even if he had been raised by his father instead of his mother, the mindset would have been different. Part of the discrimination I received as a child was from African-Americans who, even between African-Americans and West Indians, perceived a difference in mind set ( I am 61 born 1947). There was a difference and one could spend eons discussing why but, whatever it is, it is why so many of the prominent "African-American" public figures were, like Shirley Chisolm, actually West Indian-American. This difference is even more so between the mind set of a descendant of America's African slaves and the descendant of an actual African. This adds to the complexity of his racial identity and I don't see it addressed.
[66] em from nj, re: statistics.
Wikipedia -- always suspect, I guess. They are using Federal Reserve Data. Maybe somebody got their means and medians mixed up. (140,000 or whatever does sound more like a mean income, yes?) But I think your stats prove the point just as well as mine. Whites make way more than non-whites.
Fantastic conversation (leaving aside the occasional bombast of Dr Thernstrom, which our host and other fellow guests handled with exemplary grace). And THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Ms Hinojosa for making such a critical point about identity.
While Brian Lehrer, like many other intelligent folks, opposed "economics" and identity, you rightly insisted that the two intersect. Socio-economic background, race, citizenship, gender, and so many other aspects of who we are become important at different times. And this is how Dr West reminded us of the complexity of Obama's, and everyone else's, "black identity."
A Voter from Brooklyn states: "For non European and African people who come to the United States, they are confronted with the reality and history of black/white racism in the country; and they may feel pressured to pick a side. Guess what side they will pick, the oppressors or the oppressed? I’ve met many Asians, South Asians, Spanish speaking People and Middle Eastern people who take on the same animosity towards black Americans that comes from some white Americans."
The minds of Black Americans are filled with their own stereotypes and racist attitudes. How could it be otherwise, given where they live? I'm white and have lived in predominantly Black neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Manhattan that also included immigrants. I think I see what you're referring to, but I think the reaction of immigrants to Black Americans is based mostly on bad experiences with Black Americans, not inculcation by the media or some larger white culture.
Inquiring Minds: Seriously, you REALLY think that this Bill Ayers is relevant? You think he's shaping Obama's policies? So you think Obama couldn't have done what he's done without Bill Ayers??
You think Ayers is the same person now as he was 40 years ago? Vietnam was an explosive political time.
Some of the people who were witchhunted during the 50's were Communists. Except back in the 1930's when that was what young and politically passionate Americans were doing as a reaction to the fall of Capitalism as they knew it.
Do you think, and I want you to actually give a thoughtful response, that Bill Ayers is the same as someone like Timothy McVeigh?
I have worked with and am friendly with a Political theatre artist who has been an anti-war and self proclaimed "Pacifist Activist" for 60 years. This person does not vote because they don't believe in the American political system, and at one time in their life they had their passport taken away and jailed. I don't share this person's views. I respect this artist and am proud to have worked with them. By McCain's Ayers-Litmus-Test, I wouldn't pass as an American either and would be a Person of Interest.
C'mon!
Stefan Keneas [52]: I hope you're as willing to work *before* the elections (like poll-watching, voter-rights protection, through either the Obama campaign or nonprofit groups like People for the American Way) to *prevent* suppression of votes as you are to riot afterwards if it happens.
Mike from Inwood, thanks for your contribution. While I don't think your assumptions about professional advancement are born out by statistics, I do think that the experiences of whites from less advantaged backgrounds is an important part of this conversation. You remind us that the ridiculous outdated formula that White=rich and Black=poor is nonsese, and, in fact, gets in the way of creative problem-solving. Ditto for absurd comments like "There is something pernicious about modern black urban culture."
If we want to understand how to improve racial inequalities in this country we must first disentagle the conflation of economic class with race. Many of the difficulties facing black communities stem more directly from poverty than they do from race, and have equally negative effects in poor white, Latino and Asian communities.
"I think the reaction of immigrants to Black Americans is based mostly on bad experiences with Black Americans, not inculcation by the media or some larger white culture."
Do these this experiences justify a dislike of Black Americans as a whole?
It is a way for people who come to this country to feel better about themselves in a country where theirs is not the dominant culture. It's taking on a part of what it means to be an American. Do you want to emulate the successful class in this country? Look down on someone. Perceive yourself as better than someone. This includes African immigrants as well, by the way.
Meanwhile, if it weren't for Black America taking a two and a half century beat down and the civil rights movement that followed they may have felt the wrath. Someone always does.
@81 Leo
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
www.jpfo.org
"In the 20th Century:
* Governments murdered four times as many civilians as were killed in all the international and domestic wars combined.
* Governments murdered millions more people than were killed by common criminals.
How could governments kill so many people? The governments had the power - and the people, the victims, were unable to resist. The victims were unarmed."
They've got a nice brief in the DC vs. Heller case, btw.
As a bonus for this thread, there are also briefs amici from gay and black civil rights advocacy groups pointing out the racist and discriminatory origins of gun control.
http://dcguncase.com/blog/case-filings/
That should tie it all together for you.
Yvonne, he is NOT a descendant of American Slaves and your POINT??? White America does NOT diviy us up like THAT. Not even you (try as you might) can separate yourself from us, carribean born or NOT.
Back on topic, race cannot be discussed in this country! It is a hot button for fingerpointing! sand slander.
"The minds of Black Americans are filled with their own stereotypes and racist attitudes."
Okay, you've lost me here. The minds of Black Americans are filled with many things, just like your mind, just like my mind. You are undermining your valid arguments about the selectivity of white priviledge by making blanket statements about Black attitudes. Please try to resist stereotyping; it gets us nowhere in the conversation.
Hurt feelings are the only result of a racial conversation in this country. Somebody was a slave and somebody owned slaves for profit! There is no good memory on either side of that fact!
Ayanna from Brooklyn replies: "Mike from Inwood, thanks for your contribution. While I don't think your assumptions about professional advancement are born out by statistics, I do think that the experiences of whites from less advantaged backgrounds is an important part of this conversation."
Thank you. I am currently pursuing an MA part time that involves the use of statistics in social science, and I do think the numbers show what I'm talking about. The US is a large and diverse place and it's difficult to simply isolate two factors (race and income) and show any uniform imapct.
Mike from Inwood, I think you’re missing the point on white privilege in the United States. Yes, there is a huge number of unemployed, under-employed, uninsured, hard-knock lived white people in this country; however… Are you routinely shadowed when you go shopping? Are you asked to show receipts, or walked back to the cash register as proof of purchase when you buy an item and refuse a bag? Are you or your relatives routinely stopped by police when on the road? When you ride the subway, do you watch people do the mental calculus of deciding to sit beside you, or the person of another race? How many unarmed people of your race have be shot/killed by the NYPD? I could go on. You may not have been advantaged economically, but you have had the advantage and luxury of being ignorant to the realities of race.
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