On Demand
Post-Debate Coverage: Undecided Voters
Wednesday, October 08, 2008
WNYC political director Andrea Bernstein gives post-debate analysis from Nashville. Plus, we get reactions from two undecided voters, Enrique Facundo and Kathy Nyberg.
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George Packer just wrote an article in the recent New Yorker Mag about lower-income undecided voters in Ohio, which is worth reading:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all
He gives a great description of what one of the undecideds, Barbie Snodgrass, is going through financially. Oddly, in the end he ends up really painting these particular lower-income voters as a bunch of physical grotesques. Between "gangly" and "overweight" and "white-haired, white-skinned old ghost of a woman", I guess there's a real dearth of Packer-amenable body types.
It's weird, because he's trying to make the point that some lower-income undecided voters feel they can't understand the overachieving Harvard-educated Barack. And then the overachieving Yale-educated Packer writes about these people in a manner that's completely elitist. I came away from it less shocked by midwestern racism than by Conde Nast-ee elitism.
On the other hand, at least someone in the media is paying attention to what lower-income undecideds are going through financially. And actually quoting them.
Eva, You misuse the word racism. As someone originally from the midwest, I could feel perhaps "studied" and looked over in an anthropological sense by the article, but Packer in no way makes racial statements about midwesterners. You are seeing hatred and division where it doesn't even exist.
Tom Brokaw was so annoying with his whining about time limits that I was hoping he’d fall thru a trapdoor.
As Celebrity Journalists, Brokaw, Lehrer, Schieffer, and Ifill have a superficial, wafer thin understanding of the issues.
Undecided Voters at the townhall debate also had a superficial, wafer thin understanding of issues and lacked the knowledge to ask challenging, intelligent questions.
Give me Subject Experts over Celebrity Journalists or Undecided Voters any day of the week.
Every listener/commenter should contact CPD
Commission on Presidential Debates
1200 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
Box 445
Washington, DC 20036
and demand they change these stupid debate formats. Debates should run 3 hrs with 7 min to answer questions and 3 min for rebuttals.
We need 8 or 9 single issue debates running 3 hrs each where Prez candidates get questioned by panels of think tank scholars and print reporters who are experts on economics, foreign policy, energy, healthcare, etc
Same for VP candidates – 3 or 4 single issue, 3 hr debates with questions from expert panels.
If John McCain knows how to catch Bin Laden, why doesn't he give this info to George W. Bush ASAP?
The Catholic Church is teaching us more and more that Catholics can not vote for candidates that vote for legal abortion, euthanaia, cloning, embryonic stem cell research, or same sex marriage. (See John Paul II, 'Evangelium Vitae', and other documents.) As a Catholic, it would have been nice to try to figure out which candidate has the better policy on different issues, but Mr. Obama has already disqualified himself for my vote because he is pro-choice, etc. I wonder what will happen if the Church succeeds in teaching it's people, and if Catholics vote according to their correct conscience.
In his acceptance speech at the Republican Convention, McCain claimed that he respected Obama.
He sure has a funny way of showing his respect. At their 1st debate, McCain refused to make eye contact with Obama. At their 2nd debate, McCain referred to Obama as "That One".
It's been widely reported by many cable news pundits that McCain has a deep personal dislike of Obama. McCain's behavior towards Obama is disgraceful and totally Unpresidential.
McCain has become the ultimate Anti-Gravitas candidate.
Hopefully, McCain and Palin will get the crushing, humiliating defeat which they so richly deserve.
Mr. Helmrich, Vice-Presidential Candidate Joe Biden is Catholic. If he can be on Obama ticket certainly you have the full right to decide for yourself.
Your religious organization can certainly teach what it thinks is right, but you should not in any way feel obligated to follow their suggestion. You should feel obligated to use your own mind and pick the candidate you think is best for the country and world.
If your church say things like that to you, you should also perhaps remind them that in this country religious organizations do not have the right to tell citizens what candidates they can or can't vote for.
I am perplexed that there are still so many undecided voters at this late date after 2 dozen public debates and so much media coverage and with all the candidates positions on all the issues having been on their websites for so many months.
How can it be that there are still so many people who can't decide?
pls note, Brian, and hopefully you or your guest(s) will mention this: once again, McCain didn't mention the middle class...
I'm beginning to feel McCain is getting very poor advice.. I think his handlers are out to lunch.. they really think he can win the election with those lame, last-minute Palin barbs about how Obama is consorting with terrorists and things of this sort?? if there really WERE something to that story we would all know it already... if those stories were true no way would the mainstream media ignore them.. (and if anybody still has any doubts whether or not the press would be willing to go after a Democrat all they have to do is look at the years 1998-1999 (the Lewinsky years...;)
I'll be voting for "That one."
Edward Helmrich,
The Pope does not support the war in Iraq.
How does that strike you?
I'm a Clinton supporter who has had trouble getting on the Obama train. It is easier today after hearing McCain talk in the debate last night about health care. McCain started with a few specifics and then switched right over to fear tactics--that bit about not having a "choice" if the government provides health care and regulates the industry. Right, like people are "choosing" not to have health care. Isn't it great the choices we have when the republicans ensure deregulation. I wonder if the Republicans will bring back that fictional couple that they used in the eighties to defeat the Clinton plan. What were their names?
The most important thing we learned from last night’s debate came after it ended. Barack and Michelle Obama stayed in the hall to shake hands and speak with every single audience member, taking pictures, signing autographs, laughing, and looking genuinely interested and relaxed. I have no doubt Sen. Obama won many votes from those undecided voters during that time, and if anyone other than C-SPAN had shown that interaction, he would have won many more.
In contrast, John and Cindy McCain left the hall after about 5 minutes.
At first thought it was a little weird that McCain answered Warren Buffet to the Secretary of Treasury question since Buffet is an Obama supporter. Then I realized that this is McCain's strategy: take the wind out of Obama's sails even when that reaches non-sensical proportions.
at least cindy mc cain was decent enough to shake obama's hand after the townhall, maybe she should run, mc cain is just nasty.
Given all the borderline hate-speech that now accompanies McCain-Palin rallies, it is difficult NOT to hear that same tone in McCain's "That one." It felt like a slap. McCain has made the final drop into angry old man.
But kudos to the Obama campaign for quickly turning that snark into a pro-Obama site:
http://www.thatone08.com/
Nice to know others support That One as well.
http://www.thatone08.com/
So if McCain wins and appoints the CEO of Ebay as treasury secretary and then buys up all the bad debt, are we going to organize a giant online auction of bad American debt?
"That One?" How terribly unstatesmanlike of McCain, and a foreshadowing of what we could expect in negotiations with world leaders, if he were even willing to speak with them. Wow!
Edward Helmrich,
This is not a nation of Catholics. You should make your own decisions as regard to your personal life and religion. The government should not be involved.
We in the United States deserve to have the freedom to make our own choices in our personal lives, not have is dictated by arcane doctrine.
Priest were able to marry up until the 1100s.
Religious rules and doctrines were/are created by human beings for the purpose of maintaining power and control over others.
There is faith and then there is doctrine.
Is the "mainstream media" insane, bias, or just looking to keep a huffing and puffing McCain alive in the public consciousness for the ratings benefit?
His performance last night seemed gasping and unsure---repitious and in many cases incredible.
Even objective, undedicded voters had to have seen Obama as stronger, smarter and more balanced and logical in his approach to the crises (plural?) facing our country.
Many pundits and media giants seemed to call the debate a draw this morning.
Come on, McCain was so obviously on the ropes.
It was interesting to watch the candidates mingle with the crowd after the debate. Many networks kept the cameras running. McCain seemed uncomfortable after shaking hands, Cindy did not look any better. They stayed for no more than 3 minutes.
Meanwhile the Obamas continued to shake hands, take pictures and talk with the people at the "town hall".
Obama just seems like a more calm & cool character, where McCain seems to be visibly losing confidence.
The most chilling moment of last night's debate was when McCain referred to Obama as "that one." He was referring to a vote that Obama did or didn't sign. But McCain's attempt at portraying Obama as "the other," "the alien" is evidence of his campaign's continuing attempt to divert our attention fron the reality of the current crises, to shroud Obama in mystery and fear. It sickens me that this is where we have come, this blatant and clumsy fear mongering.
Seth from LI,
You stole my thunder! I was watching the debate and I could not believe it when McCain said that he knew how to catch Bin Ladin. You would think that with a president from the same party in power and a man who put his country first would have caught the man who is responsible for the murder of thousands of his fellow citizens if he knew how to do it. I was also surprised that Obama did not pounce on this statement.
I also like your idea about more indepth questions asked by subject matter experts but will it hold the attention of the viewers? In addition although the president is the executive, he or she is probably not going to be involved with the details of policy, therefore to implement your plan it would probably require that the candidates subject matter experts also be on a panel.
I think it is apparent that Senator McCain came off as a confused out of touch old man who is reverting back to child like behavior; hence he does not appear to be Presidential. His anger and discomfort with Senator Obama was so obvious in his facial expressions and his body language. He has to feel threatened by Senator Obama's grace, thoughtfulness, and grasp of the issues. Obama is Presidential, and will absolutely be the best person for the job in the new millenium. To all of you undecided voters "it's a no-brainer."
The only thing new I heard from McCain (who looked remarkably unhealthy, walking in a slow and jerky fashion next to a very lithe Obama) was that he'd buy up all the bad loans on Main Street. He lost his far right conservative base right there, which had me smiling.
As you might have guessed, I'm voting for "That One". :)
Fanny and Freddie lent money to unqualified buyers for years and it drove up the market.
McCains proposal make sense
Home prices need to drop, the surplus homes used up and at the same time, revalued mortgages are bought up by the Fed and eventually resold to new home owners down the road
McCains has a real strong finish with his closing remarks.
I thought the whole Pakistan/Bin Ladin thing was a straw man by both guys
In the portion of the debate I saw I thought John McCain looked nervous and out of touch. He continually stumbled on his words. If he can not handle the pressured situation of a debate then four years in the White House...just imagine.
I listened with great interest to the debate last night. I was astonished to hear McCain say out of left field about the $700 billion bail-out bill that some of it was going to terrorists. This occurred early in the debate and, as I recall, had nothing to do with the question, or even his answer. No one seems to have commented on this. Did I imagine it? P.S. I was very annoyed with Tom Brokaw... the debate was going pretty well with real substance and he kept trying to force things into a rigid format. Neither candidate was that much over the time limit and they had things to say, whether you agreed with them or not.
I'll bet $50 that when McCain said "that one" he was trying to Joke about "the one" from the Matrix except he'd never seen the movie.
Only one of several flat jokes by McCain
From Fact Check.org [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_2.html]
McCain made what he claimed was a new proposal to rescue over-mortgaged homeowners:
McCain: As president of the United States. ... I would order the secretary of the treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages..."
McCain added: "It's my proposal, it's not Sen. Obama's proposal, it's not President Bush's proposal. But I know how to get America working again..."
But in fact, the recently passed $700 billion rescue package already grants the treasury secretary authority to undertake just such a program. It requires the secretary to buy up troubled mortgages while taking into consideration “the need to help families keep their homes and to stabilize communities.” It also says “the Secretary shall consent, where appropriate (to) loss mitigation measures, including term extensions, rate reductions (or) principal write downs."
Obama himself had urged this as the package was being considered. He said on Sept. 23 that "we should consider giving the government the authority to purchase mortgages directly instead of simply purchasing mortgage-backed securities."
Re debate:
-- terrible format. This was not a debate but an exchange of stump speech segments.
-- intrusive and unpleasant moderator
-- McCain offered nonsense, non-sequiturs, and outright lies, taking credit for things he never did and consistently misrepresenting Obama's positions
-- Obama said nothing new but once again showed himself to be calm, focused, and presidential.
I think there will be either no net effect or an intensification of the swing to Obama.
I noticed the "money going to terrorist" comment.
I think I figured it out.
He was referring to the 700 billion we spend on oil imports and some of it "going to terrorists" he referred to it later as well.
You make a false equivalence between McCain's participation in the Keating Five and Obama's acquaintance with Bill Ayers.
The first is relevant. The second isn't.
Brian
Even more, the economy needs rebuilt in more "sustainable" ways.
The work of Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School is salient in this regard. (she has an excellent lecture on YouTube)
The argument is that the US economy has received several -- unsustainable -- "injections" since WW2.
First, women, who had been stay-at-hom-moms, entered the workforce; later, both mom and dad worked longer hours; finally, the household relied on consumer debt. Each "injection" sustained consumption. The question is: WHERE DOES THE NEXT FIX COME FROM?
I don't see one.
#8,
I wondered the same thing #8, about how there could be so many undecideds, but then I realized something… These are people that shouldn’t be voting to begin with. These undecideds either 1. Haven’t been paying attention to the primaries nor the presidential race up ‘til now. 2. Are only concerned with one or two issues and are unable to see past those. 3. Really should be voting for a third party candidate, but for some reason won’t. 4. Need to be spoon-fed everything they know and are either too lazy or too incompetent to learn something about a candidate and make a decision. 5. Want to feel important, so they hold out until the last minute so everyone caters to them. Or 6. As I said to begin with, really shouldn’t be voting; if one cannot make up one’s mind after nearly 18 months of campaigning, then pulling a leaver with crossed fingers in a boot is a disservice to all Americans.
As a pundit pointed out last nite, most of our 700 billion in oil money goes to Canada and Mexico. Our top suppliers.
What's this, "My friends," bit on McCain's part?
I thought that was really annoying.
planetariums are the devil's tool.
Will someone please ask Bloomberg to run for president, with Sarah as Secretary of State (she has experience with Russia)? McCain is a borrow-and-spend-to-oblivion "maverick" and Obama is just another tax-and-borrow-and-spend-to-oblivion liberal.
did she just call cindy a ho?
How can anyone be undecided at this point? I wonder where most undecideds fall. What percentage like Obama's policies but don't trust him and vice versa, and the same for McCain. This can tell us what the real issues are.
And I can't really see how anyone like McCain since he has changed position on many issues when he decided to run for ofice (his own immigration bill, torture, taxes.) Do we really want a man that can't stick to his principles?
@37 This is insulting and ridiculous!
Here's an idea: both candidates are unattractive.
Many are holding their noses with disgust -- just long enough to pull the lever next month.
They are waiting to collect more "information".
Candidates can find all sorts of ways to introduce their messages into debates.
There can be little doubt that the reason McCain left Bill Ayers out of the discussion last night is that McCain's own internal polling shows that Ayers is gaining zero traction with voters.
I think people who have already decided shouldn't be allowed to vote, they are close minded.
#22 Larry
I think the cable pundits are calling the debate a tie in the hopes of raising McCain's poll numbers or slowing down their decline. The networks have a strong financial incentive in keeping the race competitive. Higher tv ratings means more advertising dollars
#25 Rob
Thanks for your compliment regarding McCain's tease about a secret plan to capture Bin Laden. You may be right about candidates not necessarily knowing the details of their plans.
However, I've been watching these debates since 1976 and I'm fed up with the poor quality of the questions that Celebrity Journalists and ordinary voters tend to ask.
Of course he was attacking he is behind!
I guess i am the only one who wasn't convinced about the two. Obama and Mccain really didn't asnwer any the questions with actual solutions.
Why cant we have an actual town hall debate not this theater show, that was put on yesterday.
And people need to stop voting on people's "personality" this isn't a prom king contest, or a popularity contest. I dont care if the person is a jerk, if he is good for the job then he is good for the job, and neither are good for the job.
[36] Inquiring Minds
maybe from 3rd world guest workers
"That One," not only condescending but offensive!
@46 Barry
brilliant. fully agree.
To be undecided, moderate, or inquisitive today makes you a pariah on either side!
What is the deal with the fines for not having health care? This is something that I had not heard about previously and I wish Obama had addressed it because it seems like something some voters may be turned off by.
he meant "The One" from the Matrix you dolts!
@50 hjs
spot on, dude!
Did you see the next segment is on globalization? Trouble is, those other countries are going to repeat the same cycle -- so we have several more GENERATIONS of declining wealth for Americans.
McCain is desperate!
If Mccain had personality which he doesn't this race would be neck and neck. But for whatever reason the republican party chose the worse candidate to go against barack "the one" obama.
I will be pointing fingers two years from now, when things haven't really changed. at all of you obama voters.
@53 Ben
on unattractive thing about these socialized medicine plans is that they have to "force" or "coerce" you to join...
since they can't break your arm, they take your money in the form of a penalty
this was in the Massachussets plan -- i don't know the penalty amount
if you love liberty, this is an ugly aspect of these ideas...
Brian, I hate the rhetoric republicans keep using about big government, and how we should not use government to help insure americans. Yet its ok for the government to use all of our tax dollars to bail out the whole damn world, but we cant use our own tax dollars to help americans have adaqute health insurance. Give us all a break!
The Ayers controversy is relevant to the base, but few outside of it. That picture of Ayers standing on the American flag was relevant and recent.
Obama tossed Ayers under the bus just like the Rev as soon as they were political liability.
It has more to do with Obamas very focused march up the political ladder, he was more than happy to sit with the American Hating left while it served his needs.
I haven’t heard any comments on Senator McCain’s obvious nervousness at the beginning of both debates. My voice does that when I do a presentation that I didn’t prepare enough for. Does he sound nervous to anyone else?
[55] Inquiring Minds
well, there will be decline in the USA if we don't start electing leaders who want to invest in education and infrastructure and get ready for the boomer retirement.
Anne in Texas #2 re: eva #1,
eva did not use or misuse the word racism. Read the post again. She does make a great point about the way an "elitist" opinion writier characterizes poor white voters in Ohio. If people are interested in persuading other people to come to their side, making snide comments aobut their appearance and intelligence is not going to get it done.
#27,
How does Senator McCain’s proposal make any sense? McCain wants to shore up housing prices housing prices and prevent any further decline. Basically, McCain’s plan is to foster the same thing that got us into this mess. People stopped looking at a house, their home, as a place to live and turned them into ATMs and slot machines. Lenders knew housing prices were rising at unsustainable levels and in several locations were overvalued. People were literally gambling with the roof over their head, and they lost! The US tax payers should not be responsible for people gambling with their homes and loosing. Did people really thing housing prices would continue to rise by 5, 10, 20, 30 percent per year indefinitely. Revaluing mortgages would be condoning people living beyond their means and buying more home than they could afford. These were otherwise responsible people, but c’mon. If I buy a $50,000 car and a month later it is only worth $30,000 due to depreciation, do I get to have my car loan revalued? No, then why should this happen on a house? Everything not going to always be worth more than you paid for it. Let housing prices correct, then maybe we’ll have more responsible lending, buying and, building, and pricing in the future.
Health care aint no "right"
unfortunately
@62 hjs
Most things don't scare me; but I will tell you what really does: The day the world blinks and decides that the dollar will no longer be the world's reserve currency. The implicit subsidy we get for the dollar's current status is, well, incalculable.
:(
McCain was vague with a lot of his answers. He kept saying that he's solved problems and reached across the aisle for years so we should assume he can solve most problems. He said solving social security is easy, you just have to get people together to talk. Catching Bin Laden is also easy. A lot of these old problems are easy for McCain but has not offered to solve them until this moment when he is running for office.
Brian etal...stop demeaning American workers by usinf catch-alls like Joe Six-Pack....and drop the coverage of drinking games...thats asinine...
Everyone who hated anything about the debate format should flood the CPD with their criticism
Commission on Presidential Debates
1200 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
Box 445
Washington, DC 20036
At the very least, they need to hold many, many more debates. If we can have 20 Dem Party Prez debates we should be able to hold 8 to 9 Gen Election Prez Debates. For the love of God, get rid of these airhead Celebrity Journalists and use liberal and conservative think tank experts instead.
Brian, one thing voters are not aware of that needs to be told, working in the health care industry for 15 years and dealing with insurance companies, what Mccain proposed that we can buy health insurance from other states is catastrophic, if someone buys health insurance in another state and the state you live in is not participating with your insurance that insurance may only cover your 50, 70 or 80% leaving a very heavy burden of out of network deductibles or co-insurances, co-pays and may not cover all procedures that are covered in the state the insurance is being offered.
Brian someone beat you too the "That One" T-shirt idea check it out:
http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/im-voting-for-that-one-womens-tshirt/315049619
barry,
You are right on both counts. The $700 billion that goes to "countries who don't like us very much" is what we spend on foreign oil. Not the same $700 billion in the bailout. Not much under the control of the government there. And you are right, most of the foreign oil comes from Mexico and Canada.
Fanny and Freddie lent money to unqualified buyers for years and it drove up the market.
Now that crashin market is eroding confidence in the market and reducing credit.
McCains proposal make sense
Home prices need to drop, the surplus homes used up and at the same time, revalued mortgages are bought up by the Fed and eventually resold to new home owners down the road
@66
Inquiring I totally agree with you and yet none of this candidates will address or nobody will ask them about the status of the dollar.
Why doesn't anybody care about the value of the dollar? the federal reserve cut interest rates again today which means that the dollar will problably loose some more value.
Brian
You should watch that vapid interview with Buffet recently on Charlie Rose...he stumbles around for an hour on how much he loves America...and then lets it slip out that he has invested big in an electric car company...............IN CHINA.
You really gotta wonder about where peoples' loyalties lie!
Crushes are dangerous, btw.
Correction: eva did use the word "racism" but only as relates to the point Packer was trying to make.
When asked the profoundly stupid question about potential Treasury Secs, McCain mentioned Warren Buffet and Meg Whitman. Buffet would NEVER do it, Whitman was CEO of ebay which just laid off 10% of its workforce. Out of touch.
After referring earlier to Reagan as "My hero", Mcain referred to Teddy Roosevelt as "My hero" and went on to misquote him. Roosevelt didn't say "Talk softly and carry a big stick" he said "Walk softly..." and Obama hit him back badly with the "Bomb Iran" thing anyway.
And Brian, your perception of Obama as "aloof" is YOUR perception, through an unfavorable lens. He didn't have to "practice" in order to change his demeanor to "confident." I don't even know what that means and I don't think you do either.
Ben #53,
It's not a fine. It's a tax. If the employer does not furnish "meaningful" coverage (wording is from Obama's website), it must pay a tax to help finance the new public plan. He has not defined the amount. The amount levied on the Mass. employers has fallen far short of the amount of money needed.
I suspect that McCain's handlers are party apparatchiks whose eyes are focused more on maintaining the Party's branding than on getting McCain elected.
And while it was not on NPR, there was a moment on Charlie Rose last night when someone reminded everyone that of that foreign oil that we worry so much about, well, it seems that are number one and number two suppliers are Canada and Mexico.
@74,
Just curious... what are they supposed to say if asked about the status of the dollar? How would their answer at this point where everything is constantly in flux and unpredictable help?
Any thoughts on this? I saw Jim Kramer on Colbert last for the last night, he said housing crash was due to Fannie and Freddy loaning to unqualified buyers for 20 or so years
"Colbert: So we can safely not blame this on the Bush Administration?
Cramer: No. You can't. Actually, you can't blame it on the Bush Administration.
Colbert: You cannot?
Cramer: No, you cannot. I'd love to but it is historically incorrect."
I am so more sure I will vote for Obama than I have ever been. My comment is about the overhead projector for the science museum in Chicago. It's not like this is a waste of money if you think about it ... good museums generate tourist money and the money gets earned back to the museum and the city. For example, when my son was young he wanted to see the Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans. If they had not built it then my money would not have gone to airlines, food venues, hotel etc etc ... Not just money generated ... good will is generated AND science programs for young people just can't be underestimated. Yeah McCain, let's take an ax and chop you off from buying houses and foreign made cars.
Signed,
voter for "that one"
a quotation the undecided libertarian listener may appreciate:
...regulations may, no doubt, be considered as in some respect a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments ; of the most free, as well as of the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communication of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade...
-- Adam Smith
( in "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" 1776 )
After watching the first two presidential debates, Barack Obama is undeniably the best choice. I have nothing against old people since I too am in my Golden years, but 72 (and questionable health) is simply too old for the job, plain and simple. Even their idol Ronnie Reagan was out of commission most of his second term. We all now know that Nancy, her hairdresser and her astrologer were running the country. Can't you just see Trophy Wife Barbie and Annie Oakley duking it out as the old man declines. There are clearly only three reasons that anyone sane would vote for McCain: loyal Republicans who drink the Kool-Aid; senility and no longer able to make a rational decision; or racism--which is the message that both McCain and his lipstick smeared piglet (oops, pitbull bitch) are continually playing. Mr. Obama is so clearly the most qualified choice. Its also a shame that the Catholic church's teachings are also having so much influence on the American election. It seems to me that just as those other denominations who spoke out politically from their pulpits are being investigated by the IRS, they should also be looking into the Catholic Church. It would seem after their own scandal of sexually abusing children for generations the Catholics would redo their play book. Next best choice is to simply bankrupt them. Oh there is one other reason why anyone would vote for McCain: stupidty. And like they say on FOX, this is my opinion!
The foreign oil comment I heard from Mark Shields on PBS
it was pretty funny and an excellent point.
I think # 2 was Saudi Arabia, who is, as we all know, really our arch enemy. Really
barry
jim kramer is unwatchable.
ranting and raving BUY BUY BUY. his ilk sold gas to the arsonists
The moderator at the final debate should be empowered to cut off either candidate in mid-first sentence if they utterly fail to answer the question asked, as both did repeatedly last night.
well i think low interest rates were more inflammatory than Kramers analysis. And F & F loaned to unqualified buyers (read Poor People)
Meanwhile the Republicans were saying everyone should own a home...today.
To Barry from Manhattan:
Fannie and Freddie never lent money to any buyers. They did not write one single mortgage. They were private, shareholder owned companies backed by the federal government as guarantor. Although they did not make sup-prime loans, they purchased them (anywhere from 15-25% of the subprime market in 2006-- see http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2008/10/crisis_roundtable_more_fannie.cfm).
Here is the description of Fannie Mae (Freddie is similar) from its official site (fanniemae.com):
"Rather than making home loans directly with consumers, we work with mortgage bankers, brokers, and other primary mortgage market partners to help ensure they have funds to lend to home buyers at affordable rates. We fund our mortgage investments primarily by issuing debt securities in the domestic and international capital markets."
barry,
I'm fairly sure that #2 is Mexico. The last I checked Saudi Arabia comes in either 3rd or 4th, either in front of or behind Venezuela.
Your comment about health care not being a right: You might be interested in Maggie Mahar's blog healthbeatblog.org There is a post there right now discussing the difference between a right and an entitlement. She makes the point that no one has the "right" to services provided by someone free of charge - instead, it is our moral obligation to make sure someone's access to those services does not depend on his/her ability to be an economic winner.
Re: Fannie and Freddie: it is true that the trouble started when loans were made to people who were not so likely to pay them back. However, we are in teh fix we are in now because the loans were converted into securities which were sold under dubious claims about their worth, and bought by investers who did not have enough capital to back up the purchases if they ended up bad.
barry
that was bush's "ownership society"
barry @81,
The only people who would cite that Cramer statement are people who are unaware of or don't understand the connection between subprime borrowers, subprime lenders, investment banks and commercial banks.
Of course it's bad that people who couldn't afford them owned homes. What is worse is the securitization of their debt.
To blame this mess, directly or indirectly, on the poor is right wing opportunism and wildly of the mark.
Senator McCain’s proposal to buy up bad mortgages makes no sense as a campaign promise. By the time he would be able to implement such a proposal it would probably not have the desired effect on the markets any more. The timing seems wrong.
I'd like to add some background on Senator McCain's "overhead projector" comment. This money was used to upgrade to the Adler planetarium in Chicago to put in science visualization technology like that in the Hayden planetarium in NYC. By referring to a system so complex and educationally important as this as an "overhead projector" McCain is either flaunting his ignorance or mocking the importance of a vital science teaching tool. Science visualization is a key technology for everything from oil and gas exploration to teaching astrophysics, and something the US needs to stay competitive in the use of.
some further thoughts on regulatory policy for libertarians and conservatives:
economic conservatives sometimes equate the notions of government regulation and government micro-management.
i suspect that some conservatives and moderates are afraid that the current financial turmoil will lead to the kind of heavy handed regulation that diminishes personal freedom and stifles innovation.
when discussing regulation of the finance system senator obama has used the phrase "rules of the road". this is an excellent metaphor. computer networks also work well because they have clear, consistent rules.
the rules of the road do NOT micro-manage our driving. the rules of the road do NOT dictate our destinations, routes, or driving styles. they do NOT prevent us from stopping along the way to admire the view. the rules of the road help us get WHERE WE CHOOSE TO GO quickly and safely.
similarly, computer networks permit users to send packets anywhere, receive packets from anywhere, but work only because they are governed by rules and because they provide shared physical resources (like network wiring) and shared services (like name resolution services).
appropriate regulation and oversight can enhance freedom, rather than diminishing it.
Is anyone else shocked that some cable pundits are already saying that if McCain loses, Palin becomes a frontrunner for the 2012 Repub nomination?
Two good commentaries on Palin from Vanity Fair
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/11/graydon200811
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/10/when-did-america-start-settling-for-second-best.html
#2, Anne,
I didn't bring up Packer's racism, only the racism that Packer explicitly refers to IN THE ARTICLE.
I did bring up Packer's elitism.
No biggie, but maybe read the article? Or read my actual post?
to ericf (#95) -- great post. Clear, relevant analogy.
Benjy #94,
This is precisely why the "pork" argument is so dumb. One person's pork is another's important project. It is all about perception. A more useful discussion might be about what kinds of projects the federal government should be funding and would we be better served by having more money go straight to states and municipalities so they can decide how to use it. Also, the practice of attaching spending provisions to "must pass" bills is distasteful at best. While I applaud mental health parity, it did not belong on the bailout bill.
mc,
I just read your posts, thanks. To be fair, maybe Anne thought that because yesterday I did bring up racist statements made at a Palin rally that were reported in the Washington Post.
It is a worthwhile article, but I was kind of shocked by how casually nasty Packer's descriptions of midwesterners were. When one is "overweight" and the other "gangly" you get the impression that you just can't please Packer no matter your body type.
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