On Demand
Reframing Domestic Violence
Thursday, August 14, 2008
WNYC Reporter Cindy Rodriguez talks about her report on a program with a unique approach to solving the age-old problem of domestic violence. Ted Bunch, who runs the Safe Horizon's Domestic Violence Accountability Program and co-founded A Call to Men, thinks that men need to be held more accountable for their abusive behavior.
To call Safe Horizon: 1-800-621-HOPE
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In May, 1970, I broke my wife's nose and blackened both eyes with one backhanded blow. We'd been married three months. She was six months pregnant. My thought was, "Now I'm DAD. NOBODY nags DAD." The doctor came to the house, treated her, and left, with no comment.
I can see, now, that I had greater respect for the flag than for the woman who bore our children. Accountability meant 'taking my punishment (jail) like a man'. Even though I was genuinely remorseful, I still believed that the man is the king of his castle.
One of the prophets said, "I have come to set you free from a futile lifestyle handed down to you by your forefathers." Teaching men how to demonstrate respect for women will give the younger generation an alternate model to what they've already seen.
Thanks for the good work, Ted, Dolores, et al..
i'm not blaming the victim, but why do some women have such low self esteem to put up with no good men?
if it's JUST a problem of sexism, then why is the rate of domestic violence in Gay couple as high or higher than in hetero couples?
also, aren't there some instances where women actually beat their husbands? of course there are.
is Cindy Rodriguez a reporter on this issue- or is she an advocate for the "safe Horizon" way of treating domestic violence? is there another side to this story?
It is not at all about "self-esteem" when you don't leave. This behaviour is not revealed in the courting stages of the relationship.
Men that exhibit this deviant behaviour usually also control the finances as well.
Men with this learned behaviour are unable to express themselves verbally and women are very verbal, so they lash out physically.
King of the castle my behind.
what a bunch of bunk this woman is claiming that sexism is a big cause of battering yet then admits her program does not affect repeat offenders. Sheesh, talk about misplaced agenda here, battering is caused by people who think its ok to put there hands on others and that this is the way to deal with problems.
Also its notworthy that there is no discussion about that fact that a lot of women are just abusive and that there is veirtually no programs for men to deal with that.
Rick - The story was about ONE program that is trying to help. Many reporters concentrate on one program.
Maybe a better suggestion would be: I'd like to know about other programs that are addressing the issue of abuse in gay couples and the issue of women abusing men. Could you do a report on that?
It is not about gender, if you have ever seen one of the out of control beings in action, it is like seeing a whole other person. These individuals use fear and intimidation in other areas of their life as well.
These individual rarely change. They have seen their mother's and sisters treated this way, or were dominated by the father/father figure in their life.
Ladies, I have said this before, if you see it get out, immediately, emotion be damned, save YOURSELF!
woman in manhattan, you seem to miss the point that a someone saying something to you is not the same as someone beating you. THey are not the same and they do not have a cause and effect relationship. As for teaching men respect, maybe you should start with yourself and then some nobody on teh street with a crappy job and no life would not effct you.
Why, I wonder, does it have to be one or the other? It's 100% clear that sexism plays a role here as evidenced by the attitudes of the men...the sexism of which is so clear it's blinding.
However, it's also clear that these men are individuals who think it's ok to put their hands on others. There are many men who are sexist who don't batter. Why is this debate framed in a black and white, one or the other way? How about a more holistic approach?
I meant to say Ladies or Men in these situations, save yourself. Men are the larger offenders.
@10: What!!!??? Women, like all people, have a right not to be harrassed on the street. Period.
no ab its not at all 100% clear and you saying so does not make it so. There are batterers who are not sexist and there are woman batteriers, but I guess you wnat to ignore that because of your misplaced agenda and hatred that has made you blind to those facts
#10
Sorry, thst's ridiculous.
There is a difference between going up to a woman and paying her a compliment as opposed to what I have often seen: cat calling and berating, even getting in the woman's face and saying things like "why don't you smile?" just because she didn't respond to his initial cat call. I've observed this behavior as a MAN and I find it threatening, I can only imagine what the woman feels!
I think this is a great segment. As a survivor of a violent crime, and as a woman, I think that domestic violence is a hugely ignored and neglected problem. And the justice system as it stands is more than not helpful or supportive to women. Sexism is prevalent and many problems, not just violence stem from it.
As to HJS's comment, why do women 'put up' with it? Many women have been taught their whole lives that they deserve it, also many are kept in bad situations b/c they feel they cannot leave b/c they cannot financially support themselves/their children. Or many stay b/c of immigration/fear of deportation . Or b/c they are scared of being attacked or killed when they decide to leave, and it does happen, alot. As for the comment from rick about abuse in Gay relationships, you are right! This is a complex issue and it happens to everyone. For many reasons of power and aggression.
Question - violence against children - is this part of sexism?
It is the same, the only reason that person didn't reach out and punch her is b/c there are witnesses on the street. That was the red flag he showed her that we ignore.
Do men in the 21st century in the West really, honestly still consider women their 'property'?
Oh wait, Brooklyn is right across the river.
Violence against women should certainly be addressed. But I have to say, in all my relationships where their was physical conflict, that the woman was the one that used violence against me. I used to have scratch marks and cuts on my arms all thru college from GF's that dug their nails and hit me for what ever reason suited them. I think we ALL have to look at the escalation of physical violence in relationships.
The other side is verbal violence, which often leads to physical violence.
Ted,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your comment that men who are silent about other men's violence only allow the problem to continue. In other words, men need to take responsibility for sexism.
I stood up and applauded when you said that. It's like when white people finally understand that racism is their problem, and that their silence is what sustains a racist society.
#14
?????????
Um, I think you have to go re-read what I wrote, you either missed the point or have very poor reading comprehension
and accusing people who do not agree with you as having an "agenda" or engaging in "hate", does not make it so either.
and if you do not see that sexism does play a role here...well then we all know where your mind is, don't we?
Can you comment on the role of insane jealousy?
I actually don't think that EVERYONE is raised to devalue women versus men- I certainly was not; I also don't think that as a man I benefit from those men that beat women. quite the opposite! these guys give men a bad reputation and make women wonder about almost any guy that is not wilting violet.
the other thing is that now any woman can simply call the police and they will show up and arrest a man with almost no questions asked. I don't see where that helps men- and I know people that have been wrongly arrested because they were in a bad relationship where the woman was not a victim at all.
Ted Bunch just made the comment that the insult on the sports field "you throw like a girl" is an example of sexism.
I could not disagree more- it is simply a fact of nature that men have greater potential in performing feats that are based in physical strength- basically, men are faster and stronger, and can throw farther, than women.
How do we balance the biological differences that separate us physically while keeping in perspective that men and women are mentally equal?
To your guest: I've got news for you: women can't throw as far as men! It's liberal PC blather such as this that mekes me ashamed to call myself a liberal!
The Jewish culture is interesting toward women in my view - Queens Ruth and Esther among other females, are heroes. The Christian tradition - Catholics have virgin-whore (teh two Marys)and Protestants don't even have the BVM!
#10 - Ridiculous
#20 - Michael that is the point verbal DOES NOT lead to physical. Your wife clearly has never met another bigger stronger abuser!
#21 - Julie - too far
Sexism is a contributing factor, but not the only factor. Abuse happens to everyone. Abusers want control.
This does not diminish the fact that sexism and street harassment is a HUGE problem and threatens women, and is not taken seriously.
No one deserves to be harassed or abused. No one, no matter their sex or orientation.
We also must recognize that men are usually the abusers, and it is a cultural epidemic.
I'd like to have the woman running the program for batterers ask the men who name "protector" as a man's role who they think they're "protecting" when they beat up a woman.
It is great hearing someone calling on all men to take responsibility for our sexism etc. I just want to add that it is important that we all remember that MEN are GOOD. We are fully human and fully capable of love and closeness, just like women. Tragically we are socialized to believe otherwise -- that we are animals, monsters, expendable, that we have to be strong, self-sufficient and isolated. Society charactertizes teenage boys as "only interested in one thing" -- another way of dehumanizing us. We internalize these ideas in exactly the same way that women internalize the sexism and misogyny directed at them. Sexism hurts all of us and it NOT a "women's problem!" Men have to take responsibility for their sexism and work at closeness with each other or this will never get better.
It is so easy to point the finger at the women that don't leave and judge them, isn't it!
You don't know anything about them, financial reasons come into play, religious views, etc.
Not every wrong is righted. It is possible to overcome being the child of this and not allow it to be repeated in your life.
I grew up in a "Christian" household and my dad is a born again pastor, hence why I don't want to be one and why I am now Reform Jewish, I lived through it, but I have to say that in my situation, I am glad my mom didn't leave. I think my life would have been worse off financially.
I have actually found life to be very good now. So there is hope if you go through this, keep the faith and stay strong. You are stronger than you know.
Recognizing female on male violence does not demean women. That's an absurd statement.
Addressing violence in a relationship is the issue, not how women are victims. This means that we don't need to ignore male victims of female violence or victims of violence in homosexual (M/M AND F/F couples) relationships. I don't think that the issues are any different based on the gender of the abuser or victim.
As for the statement that men's violence against women is supported by society, I MUST say that is untrue.
Recognizing female on male violence does not demean women. That's an absurd statement.
Addressing violence in a relationship is the issue, not how women are victims. This means that we don't need to ignore male victims of female violence or victims of violence in homosexual (M/M AND F/F couples) relationships. I don't think that the issues are any different based on the gender of the abuser or victim.
As for the statement that men's violence against women is supported by society, I MUST say that is untrue.
#21
I agree, because silence is a factor that aids all forms of oppression
How about a dynamic between both members that fosters violence?
What is never discussed is why women are attracted to macho abusive men. I'm sure everyone knows a woman or two who, even when they manage to free themselves from one abusive partner, manage to find another abuser. There's change that's needed on all frontes.
I don't agree with Ted that discussing violence intrapersonal relationships takes the focus off women. That is nonsense. Men and women who are violent to the opposite sex are abusive to children, animals and anyone else in general. It is important to look at this as an issue where violence is not appropriate regardless of sex, age and even species.
we are always where we want to be...
A 1998 Justice Department study actually found that men account for 36 percent of all victims of domestic violence. Hallie Levine, “The Husband Beaters,” New York Post, July 9, 2001, p. 15. And “Women commit the majority of child homicides in the United States, a greater share of physical child abuse, an equal rate of sibling violence and assaults on the elderly, about a quarter of child sexual abuse, an overwhelming share of the killing of newborns, and a fair preponderance of spousal assaults…and yet violence is still universally considered to be the province of the male.” Larissa MacFarquhar, quoting Patricia Pearson in “Femmes Fatales,” The New Yorker, March 19, 1998, p. 90.
#26
"Women can't throw as far as men..."
Sooo...your logic is then it's ok to beat them, threaten and berate them on the street and otherwise not treat them as equals??????? What exactly are you trying to say?
Here's what can happen on a routine walk to work
Man in saville row suit approaches me, and through the side of his mouth, says. "Nice tits."
or construction worker shouts across third avenue, "Ya got nice tits, lady"
young man just grabs my crotch!
we are objectified by the culture. That has to be part of it.
What a great segment. Ted, you're ideas are spot-on. Keep up the important work!
This idea that domestic violence does not exist within traditional Jewish or Muslim cultures is absurd. I am friends with a social worker who works with both victims and batteres in the orthodox jewish community in Brooklyn. DV is a problem everywhere.
#39
Not true at all
I tend to ignore cat calls. But just curious: what's the "right" way to put somebody in his place during such assaults?
There is only 1 moral that we all need...RESPECT.
It covers EVERYTHING.
#39 - Hi HJS, very profound and I agree with you 110%
Wow! The more I listen to this guest speaker the more my stomach turns! Abuse is wrong no matter who it comes from, be it man or woman! I had been assaulted by my ex and and it hurt both physically (blood shed) and emotionally. He would get more respect from your listener audience if he were to show a better sense of fairness, as would this show's hostess if she were to call him to task for his lack thereof.
Hasn't Robert Chambers been dating since he was released from jail for killing a co-ed? Weren't the Menendez brothers flooded with marriage proposals and able to start romantic relationships after being convicted of killing their parents?
In other words, how much harder is it to sell men there's a problem with sexism when you can't even sell women there's a problem with sexism?
To follow on [37] it's the prevalence of these women that are necessary for abusers to exist. If women constantly rejected men to are abusive, they'd changed their ways. The post by a "woman in Manhattan above [7] relates a story of sidewalk abuse. If this approach was never successful, men would not take it. Remember, it's women who are the primary child care providers and it's women who start in with "boys don't cry" and the rest of the sexist crap that we're all raised with. This is not to blame women, but to say that they problem lies with all of us, not just men. Men like Ted Bunch are just looking for the approval of women in a different way.
I think the best way to address men that show disrespect is to remind them that they have a mother , sister , or daughter and that they should treat other people's mothers, sisters, and daughters with the RESPECT that they want others to treat THEIR loved ones. That's the rule I follow.
#48
Profound?
I knew someone who was in an abusive relationship..she was NOT where she wanted to be
I have been in situations in my life which I did not "want" to be in
It's illogical hippy bumper sticker blame the victim nonsense.
A single program cannot treat all the symptoms of the many issues here. Treating men after the fact of their individual cases of DV can't answer the way American men view women, or the way men in particular groups view women, or why women think so little of themselves. That could take generations.
I'm more troubled by the fact that this program is no more effective for these men than any of the more typical types of treatment.
Re: religious differences:
Claiming that one's religion features a couple of biblical heroines does not carry as much weight as the community's ideas about itself. A woman may not report violence out of fear of how it would reflect on her family and her community. Religious groups have DV problems. Acknowledgment is the issue.
[51] While this might be emotionally satisfying, it will not solve anyhting and may only lead to more abuse, if not toward the speaker, then toward to next woman.
My step father hit and punched and broke my mother's bones when my siblings and I were kids. No one outside the family knew. He's very successful, well read and well known in his field and would be considered enlightened by those who knew him. He obviously is sexist but would never admit it. I mentioned about no one knowing because some men who called in said they didn't know any men who abused women. Mr Bunch sounds very perseptive about men's behavior. I wonder how more affluent male abusers can be reached.
ab
sorry if one stays because someone is paying the bills or any other excuse then that's a choice that one has made. i'm not blaming, but i still think if u had self esteem u would leave and not look back start over with out a dime. and i've been in poisonous relationships, so i've been there.
[52] I think what was meant by the Robert Chambers example and by "we are always where we want to be..." is simply that an abused woman's choices were necessary for her to be in an abusive situation. Especially women who repeatedly find themselves in abusive relationships; there's something about how they pursue romance or relationships that puts them repeatedly with an abuser. Also, there's nothing "hippy" about this logic.
CB (#25): I know two women who can throw a strike to home plate from centerfield. I've heard a lot of guys call them 'dykes' (they're not). "Throw like a girl" refers to arm motion, try throwing with your non-dominant hand.
When I ran indoor track in HS, an Olympic sprinter (female) sometimes trained with us. It was one of the best prep teams of all time (WPHS, 1966), future Gold Medalists. I saw guys back off the line if she stepped up to run a 220. Do you think it's sexist to not want to "get beat by a girl"?
[2] hjs states: "i'm not blaming the victim, but why do some women have such low self esteem to put up with no good men?"
Self-esteem may be involved, but I think it's mostly just plain sexism. Some woman feel emotionally secure with a strong, decisive man who takes charge. This behavior elicits romantic feelings. Abusive men exhibit these characteristics in the extreme and these women swoon to abusers.
#51: You didn't answer my question.
Somehow the numbering scheme has chnaged on the comments and none of the refer-backs make sense. Good work, WNYC.
[[WNYC reserves the right to edit or remove comments that violate the WNYC posting policy. Yes, this does sometimes change the numbering system. Best bet is to refer to a comment by its content, not its number.]]
#51 - I restate, profound, b/c you have to take it upon yourself to get out and get help. No one says "I want to be here in this abusive situation" that is not what I am saying, I am saying IF you don't take the necessary steps to send that fool to jail or get out, YOU ARE WHRE YOU WANT TO BE!
if "george d from white plains, ny" is still on, I'd be curious to know what prophet you were referring to:
One of the prophets said, "I have come to set you free from a futile lifestyle handed down to you by your forefathers."
mike
56 58 thanks for ur support
60 sometimes comments are deleted if the censors feel we are not being good boys and girls
To WNYC moderator: I see why the numbers got all screwed up; You removed the comment advising women being abused on the street to tell a heckler that he "had a small penis". Not only is this censorship of someone's sincere advice, but if you really feel a need to do this, simply over type it with "REMOVED" so that the number don't get screwed up.
If George is still on you're a coward! These abusers don't usually face real men, head up for a fight, they beat on women and children in the shadows aka the privacy of their own home, isolated from family and friends. Cowards!
[63] It is still offensive to have to remarks removed. The "tell him he has a small penis" remark did not lead the conversation astray or into escalating insults, it was sincere advise that many women give each other and as such a legitimate part of the conversation. We are adults here, not boys and girls, naughty or nice.
is penis a bad word this week?
i notice when BL is not in the substitute censor is more strict
[[FYI, When Brian takes vacation, it doesn't mean the whole staff does too! Same moderators. Several comments have been edited and removed for violating the WNYC posting policy. In addition, you may have noticed our new website today. There are the inevitable glitches that come with that, including a few disappearing comments. So apologies for that, along with the usual reminder to stay civil, brief, and on topic!]]
Mike from Inwood: I really think that would spark more anger in that personality than help. Not sure if that is good advice. Ignore and keep it moving is probably the best thing to do.
In any event, my previous remark:
[51] While this might be emotionally satisfying, it will not solve anyhting and may only lead to more abuse, if not toward the speaker, then toward to next woman.
was meant to address the woman who advised telling hecklers that they have small penises
yep the PC word is "pee pee"
Whether I agree with her advise to the heckler or not, I don't hink her remarks should be removed unless they are leading the conversation into an escalating series of insults.
Whether I agree with her advise to the heckler or not, I don't think her remarks should not be removed unless they are leading the conversation into an escalating series of insults.
#61:
I only meant to imply that the efforts of feminists are better spent on unifying women rather than healing men. I don't agree there's consent inherent in being trapped in an abusive relationship, simply because there's often a "hostage" involved that legitimately obscures the best course of action.
WNYC moderator, you can number the posts, or you can reserve the privilege to delete posts, but it is confusing to do both. You can avoid disrupting the posting order by simply editing them with a [deleted by moderator] message.
truth
if he's with a group of his friends working on the street. i think it would shut him up and make him think before he did that the next time. turning the tables. but depends on the situation.
Back on topic: this DV situation should NOT be taken lightly, people, mostly women are dying.
Get help please, call someone to come and help get you out!
He has you terrified to make the call or walk out on your own strength for a reason.
He/she won't/can't change. You can't change him/her don't be fooled.
Back on topic:
fathers should tell their daughters don't put up with this behavior
and tell their sons this is unacceptable.
the truth [75, I hope] consider this: I am male. I grew up in a house charcterized by domestic violence and substance abuse. Before my father began taking his frustration out on my mother, he used to hit me. He hit me instead of my three sisters, because I was male and "boys don't hit girls" as I was repeatedly told, even though I did not hit my sisters (we tortured each other with words). At the age of 6,7 and 8, I was the only guy in the house to fight with. That simple.
hjs states: "Back on topic: fathers should tell their daughters don't put up with this behavior. and tell their sons this is unacceptable."
I wouldn't put it all on the fathers. For most men of my generation, the fathers were absent and only provided a vague example. Women are the primary care givers and I really think it starts with them. They have different expectations of sons than they do of daughters. These are the seeds that sometimes bear the fruit of abuse. They tell their sons that boys don't cry and begin the sequence of bottled up emotions.
HJS The friends may heckle but don't you think there would be some fall out behind that? Feelings of being humiliated infront of the friends may send him spiraling out of control.
Mike, I agree you were a victim, same as any female in a DV situation, worse perhaps b/c you were a defenseless child. Don't be offended by this question ok, I am asking w/sympathy and good intention....do you abuse now as a result?
ok maybe. my feeling and it's only a feeling these cat call men are all talk and no action. they don't know how to deal with people in any real way, (i also wonder about there self esteem) i don't know i don't know these 'types of men'
HJS, I see your point, If we could be sure that is all it is, showing off in front of the friends so to speak, then I agree, insult away. Problem is, can't be sure, but I understand your point.
the truth asks: "Mike, I agree you were a victim, same as any female in a DV situation, worse perhaps b/c you were a defenseless child. Don't be offended by this question ok, I am asking w/sympathy and good intention.... do you abuse now as a result?"
No. but if I were an abuser it would not be a result. It would be a choice, albeit a poorly thought out choice informed by my past.
Instead, I've always shied away from confrontation. This was a large contibutor to the downfall of my last (6 year) relationship. We never argued and communication suffered as a result.
Mostly, I have difficulty feeling loved by others.
[36] O from Forest Hills states: "It is so easy to point the finger at the women that don't leave and judge them, isn't it! You don't know anything about them, financial reasons come into play, religious views, etc."
I hope you didn't construe my remarks as blaming the victim. I also gre up with domestic violence. I did not repeat the pattern, but the choices abused women make do result, inadvertently of course, in their own abuse. Abused women re-examining themselves is a necessary part of breaking the cycle. Ted, the speaker on the show, seemed to assume otherwise.
Mike, good that you do not abuse but your were certainly effected by your victimization for sure, the non-communication and IF you don't /can't change that and the feeling of never being loved, your relationships with women will always be strained. Now I am not a trained professional in this area, just life experience but most women are verbal, communicators,and often need you to express your emotions in a verbal way.
the truth sympathetically replies: "Mike, good that you do not abuse but your were certainly effected by your victimization for sure, the non-communication and IF you don't /can't change that and the feeling of never being loved, your relationships with women will always be strained. Now I am not a trained professional in this area, just life experience but most women are verbal, communicators,and often need you to express your emotions in a verbal way"
Think of my posts; I have no trouble articulating my feelings to strangers online, let alone to women! It's funny though, most women, in spite of what they say or think they want, really don't want to know how their man is feeling. They're not accustommed to dealing with feelings they haven't already processed and have a reply for with men.
Incidentally, it wasn't me that had a tough time expressing myself. It was her. She wanted to go to a therapist so that she could tell the therapist and the therapist could tell me!
When I could get her to talk, we'd have these cathartic conversations that would leave her with plans for self-change. Plans that were forgotten the next day. I came to conclude that she liked the catharsis more than the self-improvement. Curiously, I took several Womens Studies classes at The New School and met many women who seemed to have the same proclivity. They lived to have a good talk with each other, not to effect any real change.
Mike, Ok so I mis-read the "I shy away from confrontation" to mean you were also the one having the difficuly opening up, apologies.
Sounds like were not scarred, that is also good for you, most are not so lucky, need years of therapy.
Unfortunately I have to agree with you about MOST women NOT wanting to hear when their man is articulating feelings. Some even consider it wimpish behaviour. I agree but I have to say that there are some exceptions.
I know some women who overtalk their partner or disagree right in the middle of a sentence etc...these type of behaviours irritate the personality that knows no other way out of this frustrating situation, except the physical. They feel, this is the only way to "shut her up".
Good that you didn't do that though, also good that you have moved on from the relationship, there are many quality companions out there just waiting for a good partner.
Best of luck to you in finding one.
I've moved on and while I don't think my childhood has prevented me from finding someone, I am alone at 50 and probably will always be, just because of the age thing. My ex was a quality women. Like all of us, she had a few flaws. In retrospect, I wished I'd gone to therapy with her. If she needed a third person to open up, I should've dealt with it and perhaps eventually we wouldn't have needed the third wheel.
But I thank you for your sympathy, truth
Yeah you are probably right about that but, don't dwell on it. I am "tapping 50 on the shoulder" and currently, in a relationship, but if this one ends, I by choice, would not do it again, relationships are a lotta work and you never know what you are going to get. I welcome growing old w/o the complications.
Good luck to us both in our situations.
u two are making me sad, sadder
Mike from Inwood: Jeremiah, I think, or perhaps Isaiah, I don't recall. Catholics are kinda weak on the O.T. It caught my attention in church a while ago.
P.S. I'll bet you can out-type a girl any day.
The word "penis" is not a bad word. It is the scientific term for male genitalia. That is the correct term, there are other alternatives that are not PC, but that is just the name of a body part as hand is name for a body part.
I think we think certain parts are "dirty" or perverse but that is just in our minds and not reality. All the body parts have a function.
PPS: I was on the road for a stretch, just noticed the great dialog towards the end. This is good. Thanks to everyone.
O
and yet they took the comment down for some reason
Their prudes.
Bad spelling, I mean they are prudes.
Mike: Another thought from the good book, "Despise not the day of small beginnings." Ted is on the right track and he's taking an action, not just talking.
I'm wondering if any literature exists that shows a relationship between children who are battered and them becoming batterers in adulthood. Let's not forget that states don't outlaw beating children, they just legislate how it may be done, a modern day Rule of Thumb. If we routinely objectiyf children how can we blame the ones who grow up to objectiy and control others with force?
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