On Demand
Clerkships at New York City Hospitals
Thanks to a new contract, students from a Caribbean-based medical school will receive clinical training at some of New York City's public hospitals. But the new deal could mean fewer clerkship positions for students from medical schools in New York. Charles Modica, Chancellor of St.George's University and Dr. Michael Reichgott of Albert Einstein Medical School, talk about the anatomy of the deal.
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Is the $443 per week per student rate?
Would there be anything wrong with giving clerkship slots to students from England or Ireland?
Is the training at off shore schools at the same level as American Medical schools?
C'mon smart people....The word is "accrediTation."
Not sure if it is the case but I remember years ago that students went to medical schools off shore because they couldn't afford to go in the states or their grades were not good enough to get into US schools, any truth to that?
The seats in these Carribean schools are baught and quality of students are not at par with local US trained medical graduates. Also I am sure this contributes to the falling standards of care in NYC hospitals because of this.
what about the questions of these schools existing because of entrance costs and requirements in the US medical schools and affording the cost of medical schools?
Why are there so many foreign medical graduates working as doctors in the US?
The representative from St. George's is an effective pitchman, but anyone who sees the American med school experience from inside knows his arguments are deceptive.
CL, can you briefly elaborate on that for those of us not in that biz?
The discussion about off shore students going into primary care was dropped. Dr. Reichgott's comments that the presence of off shore medical students does not add diversity or primary care physicians is important. He had data. Where is Charles Modica's data?
My ex went to St. Georges, and she's a brilliant emergency doc.
I feel that the larger point is being missed in the dissection of where someone attended medical school. Many of the "offshore" medical schools and schools in Mexico are not only accredited, they are very good schools. Students who did not get the top grades may turn out to be BETTER doctors, because they are better able to listen to patients. (and that's not a knock on the students at the best schools here.)
But we're so busy expecting doctors to be gods, that we forget that the primary healthcare provider is... us. That is, the hyper-intelligent, specialized U.S. medical doctor can do a lot more for you ONCE YOU GET SICK provided you have the money and he isn't overburdened. But our focus on specialization and "excellence" in doctors is avoiding the elephant in the room, which is that they can't help you that much once you get sick, and an enormous amount of illness and disease in the US is actually preventable through the actions of the patient.
I am from the class of 2006 SGU, and now a third year resident at a prominent University program in Brooklyn. I will going on to be the Chief next year, in a succession of many SGU grad chiefs at this program. I believe the education I received at SGU has made me stand out among my peers both FMG and AMG. THe agreement between SGU and HHC for clinical rotations will only enhance the patient care at these respective hospitals and is evidence of the quality of our students. Dr. Reichgott is right about his off shore MCAT scores, but SGU is one of approximately 22(in the Caribbean and pacific, not including European and Indian) and is not reflective of SGU entering students. And I don;t understand the argument that took place. Why does one care about the Entering Student, Patients will only care about the Physician In front of them and their Accreditations and licensing, and how they treat them both medically and mentally. Before passing judgement on a student from St. George's, or any doctor, you might want to get to consider that she may be the Doctor that saves your life...... who cares where he came from.
There were references made to medical schools as either allopathic or osteopathic. This is an illogical type of distinction, as both M.D's and D.O.'s dispense allopathic drugs. The term "allopathic" is properly used in comparison with homeopathic, not osteopathic. These as varieties of drug therapy, not fields of medicine.
The U.S. Medical Licensing Examinations will help exclude the unqualified physician (US grads and non US grads).
The care of the patient is reflective on the attending physician so the medical student who is learning from the patient will have little medical impact. Students, in my opinion, can have great impact psychologically, because they can spend time with the patients.
The perceived lowering standards at HHC is not new. The medical students at HHC hospitals act as transporters, phlebotomists, etc. in addition to their academic responsibilities. I welcome anyone to disagree. Therefore, I think that foreign medical students, who is motivated to do more to learn, will be a good match for HHC.
The MCAT is a great test... for engineers. I don't think it is a good indicator of which students will make the best and most conscientious doctors.
The foreign medical schools have varying quality. St. George's was a problem in the past, but is now graduating qualified professionals. Other Caribbean schools are just so-so.
The first two years are theory (preparation); the last two years of med school are the practical years (clerkships). If there is 'okay' preparation, but an intellectually ambitious student and a great clinical rotation, the student will do well.
The real problem is what the off-shore schools are willing to pay. They charge a fortune in tuition and have minimal overhead (as compared to the US schools - both allopathic and osteopathic), therefore, they can afford to pay handsomely for their clerkships. Their weekly stipend is usually equal to (or close to) what the US schools pay for a month or even six-week rotation. The American schools cannot compete.
The hospitals are in such financial crisis that the CFO of the hospital is dictating (or greatly influencing) med education decisions.
The program just recently came online, so I was able to listen to it. Dr. Modica from Grenada was spinning tales when he said that there was never an American student displaced from a spot in NYC or the area for a St. George's student. That is totally false.
In NJ, where I work (closer to Manhattan than some parts of Queens or B'lyn), hospitals are canceling contracts with US schools who pay $300 or $400 for a one month rotation or $500 for a six-week rotation because SGU is paying $1200-$1600 for a 4 week rotation. In fact, they have been doing this for a couple years.
SGU is actively pursuing these spots. From their students' perspective they are doing a good job of helping them get US clerkships at good hospitals. From the perspective of the US schools, SGU's actions have been predatory. By that I mean they are actively trying to displace American students in US schools from the clerkship spots they currently have. I didn't just hear this. As clerkship and residency faculty, I know this first hand.
Our residents who are SGU grads come to us wanting fellowships. They go into primary care if they can't get a fellowship. For most, that is not their first career choice. If they are non-US citizens/residents they either go home or -if they want to stay in the US- go to the rural south (underserved program) for a period of time to get their green card. Dr. Modica's claim about the majority of them wanting primary care has not been our experience.
The real issue is who gets to keep the money in medical education - and the medical schools want to keep it even though the public hospitals provide the supervision and everything else during the clerkship. Why shouldn't the public hospitals be reimbursed for taken students? The students are paying tuition - that money should be shared with the hospital. There is too much emphasis on research in the city's medical schools - sometimes at the expense of patient care and teaching. This has been an unequal playing field in the past and now is getting somewhat more level. So naturally the big guys (the medical schools and academic teaching hospitals) are going to cry and yell - they might have to give up a little bit of control and get off some of the money they have.
my PCP is from there and two of my family members graduated from there. St. george's university is a terrific medical program with extremely well qualified physicians and are helping the need to close the gap in access to health care for US citizens here.
If the St. George's students can perform as well as it appears they have been, they have every right to be in New York City.
Dr. Reichgott provided very little evidence to show that this is, in fact, a bad thing.
It does not take brains to become doctor, it takes hard work, and that is what SGU students are known for. Because of that, I think we deserve the spots. And the truth is that we do not come with cash and we are not rich as the gentlemen on the radio said ( my family actually came to US as refugees so if I am rich I would like to know where my money is), we are just willing to pay as much money as necessary because our dream of becoming a doctor is not any less worth then the dream of American students. We receive good education which shows on our Step 1 scores. My friend just called today to tell me he got a 246. I think we deserve the spots!!!
It is true that students generally look to attend medical school outside of the US if they do not receive an acceptance to a US medical school. But the reasons for not receiving acceptance/staying in the US are not always the same. Some may have lower grades or MCAT scores but many with good grades and scores still just don't get into schools in the US. In 2006, 44% of medical school applicants matriculated in US medical schools. That means many bright students with good grades are still not given the chance to study medicine in the US, simply because there are just not enough spots available, and this can push students to look elsewhere for such education. Yes, new medical schools are slated to open in the next decade, but that does not mean we have those spots available NOW. They will not be available right away but doctors are always needed.
If SGU students aren't competing with US students for clincal clerkship spots, then why the big fuss? Also, I think that it is a very valid point that these hospital NEED FUNDING, can you blame them? I don't know why NY med schools are threatened, off-shore students already have the burden of being foreign med students and on top of it they have to pay more for these spots. Maybe if the US med schools made their class size larger, these hospitals would need off shore school to find funding. Then again, if US schools expanded their class size, maybe the off-shore students would be US med students and not foreign med students.
Yes Sofi, I too was annoyed by the comments by many about how "rich" students that study in the Caribbeam are. It is wrong to characterize SGU students as "rich" because those of us that are actually students there can attest to the fact that this is simply not true. There are expensive schools in the US as well and I don't think it'd be fair to say that only rich kids go there. The truth with medical schools is that you go wherever you can get in and hope that you can cover the costs and loan payments later because as Sofi said, the ultimate dream and goal is to become a good doctor. Look in the MSAR of US medical schools and you will see that SGU does not charge more in tuition than ALL other medical schools. The price of medical education in the US varies from school to school there are many schools at or above the price to attend SGU. Medical schools also significantly increase the cost for out-of-state students, sometimes DOUBLING the cost for out of state residents. Here is a link showing US tuition rates from the 2007-2008 school year (which have likely increased since): http://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/select.cfm?year_of_study=2008
Some US medical schools have contracts that don't allow simultaneously clerkships with off-shore students. I know NY medical college does this...
Proud to be SGU student....
Proud to be SGU student.
I am an SGU student doing my clerkships at an HHC Hospital. As far as our students being wealthy, I can personally attest to that being myth rather than fact. We are eligible to receive US Financial Aid and the majority of the people I know are receiving loans for the full tuition amount. The diversity of experience and ethnicity and birth place, in addition to English as a first language, makes our students great resources to the diverse patients of HHC, NY area, and US healthcare. We rotate with US medical students and can stand toe to toe in rounds and learn from each other which is a great opportunity for both sides. Most of the residents I train under are from foreign medical schools, for example: India, China, Africa, and Latin America. Many patients can't understand them which can cause serious consequences when your health is on the line! I and many of my classmates could have transferred to a US school with our top tier board scores, but I personally wanted to give credit to the school that took me when others told me to wait 3 years. I chose to be a doctor to help ease health disparity locally and globally, so while I wish tuition was lower, I know my tuition dollars are going toward scholarships for 3rd world future physicians and toward underfunded community hospitals that provide for many of the underserved, so at the end of the day I'm ok with my tuition.
I've just started my 2nd year at St. George's University School of Medicine (SGU). Dr. Reichgott's claim that SGU students are basically rich kids with MCAT scores under 20 is patently false. I am a 30 year old husband and father of one and I am borrowing my entire tuition and all of our living expenses. The total comes to a sometimes-frightening total of ~280k; roughly $160k for 4 years of tuition and 120k for 4 years living expenses.
Secondly, here is a link for the school-reported entrance statistics of the recent classes
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/about-sgu/SOM-student-bodypg2.html#18
please note the MCAT avg score (27) and GPA (3.3 UG).
It is true that 99-100% of the students at virtually all Caribbean schools could not get into US schools. However, many of us were waitlisted in the US and would likely be competitive for the new spots.
The offshore route is for those of us willing to fight for a second chance. We are hard workers and academically qualified, as evidenced by the placements our students achieve after graduation. I understand Dr. Reichgott's concern regarding available clerkship spots, however I am not aware that this is currently a major concern of US schools. It sounds to me that the main problem is the amount of money SGU is paying and the precedent that sets. That is a valid argument however Dr. Reichgott's claims regarding the wealth and academic quality of SGU physicians is way off and frankly shows an ignorance of the facts.
I find it presumptuous that anyone would generalize the affluence of St.George's students and apply that inaccuracy to the likelihood of them practicing in underserved areas in NY.
I have a masters degree in public heath with an emphasis in comm. health & vulnerable populations; I am also NOT rich. I have made a huge financial sacrifice moving to Grenada for my education. And while it may be true that Albert Einstein’s tuition will increase; I am not sympathetic. People should go into medicine for the right reasons. Yes, the price of medical education is ridiculous; but I am in medical school b/c I have a genuine desire to help keep people well and treat those who become ill. If students are discouraged from becoming a doctor solely based on the price of the education maybe medicine isn't their dream. B/c for those of us whose dream it is, we have moved to another country, we’ll face stigma b/c we’re foreign medical grads, and we’ll be paying back our loans for a very long time. Many of us are borrowing more loan money than most people borrow for their home mortgage. BUT,we're doing it anyway!
70% of the students at SGU are US citizens who will go back to the US to practice medicine. The public should not only want, but demand, that we be trained in good US hospitals. B/c until the US schools can meet the demand of its citizens,you are doing the city a disservice by objecting to SGU students being trained at your hospitals,regardless of your point or motivation.
I don't really know that much about foreign medical schools. I just want to make sure that the doctor that will be taking care of me is qualified and not going to kill me. I think that the most important thing is that these students are qualified. From what I have read students from SGU do relatively well on their US board exams. At the end of the day, I want the student with the best scores to get the best jobs. Isn't that the fair thing?
Who would believe this is the same NYT which celebrated SGUSOM's USMLE pass rate some years back. The NYT has a history of praising and then attacking instituions of higher education and it's usually related to whether or not that institution is advertising with them. I recall they did the same thing to Adelphi University years back.
This issue is ridiculous. As a former HHC assoiciate, I can tell you that these students do NOT take slots away from US students. Most US students hate working in HHC hospitals.
The deans of AECOM and NYU are voicing concerns predicated on a slippery slope argument. However, like Modica said SGUSOM has existed for 30 years and there have been no such problem.
If the US needs foreign trained physicians (which nooone is arguing we don't) mainly to serve the underserved (which US students tend to shy away from) then shouldn't we prefer that a portion of these graduates have US training? THe deans of NYU and AECOM would prefer that foreign trained physicians who serve the poor and rural areas of this country, never have any prior US training. That makes great public health sense. These people don't care about public health, they only care about their egos.
For many of us that have chosen to go to SGU, and I use the word chosen for a reason, being a doctor has been a dream. Many of us applied multiple times to US medical school and were wait-listed, which in the eyes of many medical schools is you make the cut, however we want to see if we can get someone else to bump up stats more. I even asked after being rejected what was a red flag in my application that I could fix. One university told me to my face, "I don't know what to tell you. You meet all of our qualifications." We all felt like we hit a brick wall at the end of being rejected after being given hope. As, Randy Pausch said, "Brick walls are there for a reason. They let us prove how badly we want things." I can say with lots of pride that SGU was my way to conquer this brick wall. The education that I am getting is definitely at par with many US medical schools. And because of the adversity that we have had to face all of us are going to be better doctors because being a doctor is all that we can ever see ourselves doing. It is our passion and our way to give back.
Anytime the Albert Einstein professor would like to sit down with some of the medical students that are from SGU in their 3rd years right now and find out how it really is we are interested. I think his eyes and ears might be opened up. His shear arrogance to the student body of SGU and our academic achievements as compared to even his own Albert Einstein students will compel even him.
In my opinion his comments are disrespectful and honestly uncalled for!!
Coney Island hospital Medical Student year 3
ST. GEORGE'S UNIVERSITY
I find it insulting that anyone would lump all of our students (SGU) into a "Rich" category. Many of my colleagues have to take loans out for their schooling as do I. In fact, I have been working ever since I was a teen because I come from a lower-middle class background and I continue to work during school breaks if needed. Also, I would have been a competitive candidate applying to US medical schools, however SGU was my number one choice because hands-down I prefer the program offered by SGU. That was the bottom line for me when I considered where to apply and I chose not to apply to American schools. Thus, it is not necessarily true that students apply to SGU only after having attempted to gain acceptance at a US medical school.
Reichgott has 1 valid point.. the argument was never about the caliber of education, nor is it about who is taking who's spots. The issue he has is demand for clerkship spots goes up and supply stays the same, cost for those spots goes up. When cost for the spots goes up, tuition has to go up to make up for it - which means less doctors going into primary care (because it pays less) since they have more debt.
That is true.. but that isn't SGU's fault. Perhaps there needs to be an expansion of clerkship spots? Hospitals need to open their doors to students. Previously exclusive private hospitals in suburbs as well as exclusive university hospitals (harvard, etc.) need to open their doors to outside students.
I agree with Kris about the US med students' feeling about HHC Hospitals.
These slots should go to SGU students who can truly appreciate the challenges of working with mostly FMG resident physicians and indigent patients.
This fuss may be generated by the concern for North Shore Hospital system being the partner of the future Hofstra University med school (Long Island). North Shore currently have med students from NYU and AECOM rotating there (Manhasset and LIJ). These slots may be lost to Hofstra in the future.
Since when is $40,000 tuition cheap anyway? BC that's what the average US med school costs. Whether US or foreign med school, med school is expensive. PERIOD.
And what is the point of this NY times article? What is the issue? Am I suppose to feel bad for med students at NYU and Einstein? But yes, then that would probably mean that more of their tuition money would pay for the clerkships instead of going in their administrators pockets....
sgu student, Dr. Reichgott clearly tries to imply that the statistics he dug up on offshore med school matriculants (MCAT under 20 and GPA under 3.0) applied to SGU. That simply isn't true. The quality of SGU students is clearly questioned by at least some of these deans. Check out the NYT article on this issue and listen again as Dr. Reichgott tries to get his shot in somewhere in the middle of the interview.
there is no way our tuition is only '40 grand a year.' i want my money back. there is no way we are subpar to albert einstein students. our students pass state board exams like every other doctor who wants to be able to practice here...makes this argument null and void. stop talking about the differences of that. it is your own ingorance. one fourth of the US doctors are from outside the US. you cant and wont change that. thre are not enough spots and schools to even fill the NYC area for doctors so there is a need for students like us. dont compare us to the other 50 caribbean schools out there or other countries for that matter. sounded like modica did a great job and Michael J. Reichgott, M.D., Ph.D. needs to get off his high LCME accredited pedestal. we dont take spots from your school (or bellevue for that matter). never have. and we dont care if we ever will. there are dozens of hospitals in NYC we can go to. NJ. California. ETC. GIVE ME A BREAK. do something more productive with your time. OH AND IM NOT RICH YOU IGNORANT PRICK. I HAVE MORE DEBT THAN YOUR OVERPRICED SALARY.
there is no shortage of room for students. its all smoke and mirrors and fear that sgu students are equals in the eyes of some people. and its St. George'S University. S!
Simply put, a student from SGU who scores HIGHER on the USMLE Step 1 and/or 2 is MORE QUALIFIED than a medical student in an American school.
The USMLE tests knowledge learned in the first 2 years of medical school, and so there is no justification in saying that an SGU student is less competent, especially if he or she scores equally or higher on this STANDARDIZED test.
Think about it... what is everyone complaining about? SGU students work hard, away from friends and family, against all odds, and still get Orthopedic Surgery and Radiation Oncology residencies in top programs. Good luck to everyone who busts their a**, and **** all the haters.
I would also like to dispel the assumption that SGU students are wealthy just because of the higher cost of medical education at SGU. Many of us including myself are loaning money for the entire program.
I spent 3 years on the waitlist in US schools being just a few spots away from admission. I am sure many students share similar stories. There is no doubt in my mind that SGU students are, as Chancellor Modica phrased it, "indistinguishable" from US students. We should not be grouped with other Caribbean schools when making comparisons. Our UG GPAs and MCATs are certainly competitive with those from US schools. Our board scores rival those from US schools as SGU students match in highly competitive residencies. This may be why, as Dr. Reichgott stated, that only 5% of SGU graduates doing clerkships in NY continue on to primary care. If we have the scores and experience to apply for competitive residencies, we are going to do it.
Let’s not forget that SGU students have managed to succeed with a few additional challenges. We have all put our lives on hold and packed them tightly into two suitcases which inevitably get lost in transit. We arrive here not knowing anything or anyone, yet we are determined to transform our dreams of becoming physicians into realities. Our ability to achieve in these circumstances can speak volumes about our ability to deliver healthcare. Our positions in NY are deserved and not simply "purchased" as a way to displace US students.
I have family members who went to St. Georges. The school is on par with all medical schools in the country with one difference. They do not have to cater to government 'quotas' of minorities. The declination of this countries health care providers is due in part to admition of these students. Students have their MCAT scores waived due to skin color.
As a 2nd year SGU student, I found it particularly disrespectful that Dr. Reschgott repeatedly attempted to lump SGU's statistics in with other "offshore medical schools", ignoring the fact that SGU students’ qualifications clearly stand apart. His initial concern surrounded the validity and potential future conflicts regarding the contract, but, rather than pursue such an argument, he instead chose to attack SGU's integrity by painting an unfounded portrait of the students as rich, spoiled brats that couldn't get into American schools. He clearly did not want to address that many SGU students were med school applicants that were rejected not due to lower MCATs or GPAs but rather due to a lack of available space in US schools. Also, US medical schools discourage out of state applicants through higher tuitions and lower out of state acceptance rates. St. George's provides such students with an alternate path to achieve their medical dreams. SGU students have sacrificed time with their families and the comforts of home to become well-rounded, diligent physicians who, having experienced a world outside of their own, will be better able to relate to their patients. Furthermore, I would invite Dr. Reschgott down to Grenada to experience firsthand the education our professors provide based on their love of teaching rather than the pursuit of research opportunities.
I have two points: one regarding entrance grades and qualifications; and the other regarding the medical school system as a whole from a student's perspective.
1) I received a 31 Q on my MCAT (81-85 percentile range) and 3.7 gpa. I chose SGU for the same reason many others do: although my grades and extracurriculars made "the cut" there are too few spots to train physicians in Canada and the States; SGU has a great teaching record; and SGU is accredited everywhere (even the UK).
2) I am a Canadian student, at SGU in Grenada, and I face the same problem most US applicants faced: there are not enough positions in medical school to train qualified applicants. At the time of my application, Canadian medical schools' official statement regarding applicant statistics indicated that they had received almost 10,000 applicants whom had met all requirements for acceptance, yet were only had a capacity to train 2,400 students within all the medical school (combined). I was one of the 7500 applicants that was good enough, but unlucky in regards to getting a placement in Canada. That being said, I just completed an elective orthopedics rotation in Toronto and I am entirely confident that my SGU education has prepared me to more than just competitive with regards to my Canadian trained peers when it comes to going through my clerkship years.
Best of luck to everyone, in everything. Peace out.
Yo momma!
That's what they should have said in that interview. Einstein's arguments sucked. He wasn't even talking about the Caribbean contract. He was talking about international students and money, but didn't know how to argue his point.
Sanji... you need to never type on any forum again until you go back to high school. Don't comment without carefully evaluating what you say. You show nothing but tremendous ignorance by saying that we are "not at par with local US trained medical graduates. Also I am sure this contributes to the falling standards of care in NYC hospitals because of this."
First, obviously we are at "par"... we at SGU match the overall statistics for the US board examinations that, as was stated in another comment, are STANDARDIZED. This means we are taking a test with equal difficulty as the US students. A lot of us score better than the MAJORITY of the US students. So please get your facts straight before sharing your ignorant disheveled thoughts. Second, the standards of care in NYC hospitals are NOT falling. Who told you this? Are you an administrator at a hospital? Do you do quality control at hospitals? Your a idiot... I'm done with you.
Clearly, there are many issues needed to be addressed. The acknowledgement of international medical students participating in American medical schools is long due. The publicity received from the recent contract between NY HHC w/ St. George's University is blown out of proportion and misunderstood in all respects.
Educating and exposing the public to these issues is nice and all. Unfortunately, it's hard not to cringe - listening to the fallacies in arguments and irrelevant points brought up throughout the entire meeting. It is obvious that one of the guest speakers was not well prepared. It seems quite blatant that his intention was to defame SGU and perpetuate this false notion of International medical schools.
This interview was badly set up. The debate was all over the place. My concern is for potential misunderstanding from 'man standard,' uninformed public.
I am currently a medical student at St. George's University SOM in Grenada My father graduated from the Albert Einstein medical class of 1978 having transferred there from a medical school in France. It is my understanding that once-upon-a-time Albert Einstein too once relied on foreign transfer students to fulfill an economic need. Is this any different than the need SGU is currently fulfilling in NYC. Secondly-
The harsh/unfortunate reality is that medicine has become a business. In principle, medicine should never be seen as a market commodity, but rather a social good. However, the current healthcare climate in the US has created a shortage of physcians, a load of underfunded hospitals, and poor reimbursement for federal programs that have made medicine a business.
New Yorkers and Dr. Reichgott should embrace this symbiotic relationship between SGU and HHC because it allows those hospitals to continue providing the same excellent standard of care, and aids in alleviating the physican shortage in NY and around the country. Hospitals need funds to remain open and functioning. No Money means fewer functioning hospitals for which NYC med students can rotate, and then what Dr. Reichgott will have a bigger problem than the phathomed threat of SGU and HHC deal.
to correspond directly with a current SGU medical student for facts please feel free to email me at blaeri@sgu.edu
The problem isnt SGU, its the rest of the podunk med schools that are popping up everywhere in the world, with the majority appearing in the Carribean. The real issues are the schools that are accepting the students with the sub-20 mcats who cant produce USMLE pass rates above 50%. A school such as SGU, which has an "indistinguishable" entrance average from that of the US schools should not be penalized for the other Carribean schools which put out huge numbers of underqualified foreign grads. Not only are SGU's GPA, and MCAT scores similar to many US medical schools, but the USMLE pass rates are the same also, with SGU even SURPASSING the US average a few years ago! Remember that there are many countries in the Carribean so to stigmatize SGU based on it being from the Carribean is to say that because countries like poland have many subpar medical schools, the entire European continent must provide subpar medical education. If a school with the same credentials as SGU were in Europe, there would be no issue! The problems that need dealing with are the countless students who come from schools outside of the United States and end up being a hazard to their patients!
I am a second year SGU student and I was insulted and disgusted by the comments of Dr.Reichgott and the NY times article regarding SGU students . While these people are talking about our MCAT scores and GPAs, have they ever stopped to realize that those scores reflect our education BEFORE going to medical school. The quality of our medical education is reflected in our USMLE scores of which we score at or above the scores of US grads. Our Step 1 pass rate is right on par with the US schools which should show our medical education is hands down just as good as US schools and even BETTER than some. People should know the facts before they start speaking out to the unknowing public. They are creating even more unnecessary and unsupported stigma for us to deal with in the future. Oh and as for coming from a rich family, can you please tell me how to contact these long lost rich relatives, because I have over $100,000 in student loans SO FAR that I wouldn't mind some help with!!
I found some other written pieces from Dr. R and just came to the conclusion that he is unsuccessfully trying to bring together two different problems, the first being his concern over the loss of the monopoly of US medical schools on rotation spots in NYC and the other being his apparent dislike- which is seemingly poorly informed- of Caribbean medical students as a whole. I would expect more from a man of his position at a reputable US medical school and from a physician as well. The NY Times article was also upsetting in that the writers chose to use words mimicking political speech- "vocational" and "rich" kids- without publishing established statistics and facts like you would expect from such a well known and high impact newspaper. The question presented in the paper should not have gone on to qualify SGU students but rather to give us the facts regarding clerkship spots- how many are available, is the competition TRULY that stiff, are US students being displaced because of others, if so, how many spots would you say are being fought after, etc etc. This article in my opinion and most of the interview left a lot more to be desired by choosing not to provide readers with substantial information and instead making assumptions about offshore students.
"But yes, then that would probably mean that more of their tuition money would pay for the clerkships instead of going in their administrators pockets...."
- THAT is the reason for the uproar. The administrators in NY med schools fear losing their profits.
- Emily, show me where Dr. Reichgott got his data from. I'm pretty sure offshore schools have a higher rate of producing primary care docs, simply going by residency slots/matches. I also love how he bashes the osteopathic schools and then flips to be their champion.
SGU student, UChicago undergrad, US citizen, Raised in NY, Paying fully on loans
This is an interesting conflict, and I can understand the stances of both parties. Both Mr. Modica and Dr. Reichgott have vested interests in their own students filling clerkship spots for the benefit of their respective schools. I feel compelled to comment on this issue, though, because Dr. Reichgott came across as trying to play into instinctual fears of jobs being outsourced (although this situation is nothing of the sort), as well as the fear of unqualified people with fat checkbooks creeping into practice. The short version of what I’m about to write is that Dr. Reichgott is misconstruing the facts in this issue. This is demonstrated well from 19:55-21:25, where Mr. Modica talks about how misleading it is to use data that encompasses all Caribbean schools to disparage a school that individually compares more reasonably to US averages.
The argument that SGU students are affluent rejects of the US medical school application process is deceiving at best. I looked into the tuition rates of both Albert Einstein College of Medicine and St. George’s University, as written on their respective official websites:
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/financial-services/som-tuition.html
http://www.aecom.yu.edu/admissions/page.aspx?id=3092
(cont)
The SGU tuition is summarized in cost-per-term, which is where I believe the original misunderstanding occurred. Their first year (Terms 1 and 2) costs a total of $39,100 while their second year (Terms 3 through 6) costs a total of $48,320. If we were to translate this into an average per-year cost, their tuition comes to $43,710. That’s not a very distant price from Albert Einstein’s bill of $42,364.
Certainly, many of students at St. George’s University are there because they were denied admittance in the US. When faced with the dilemma of being rejected from all domestic allopathic schools, pre-medical students have several long-term life decisions to choose from. Many of them, as Dr. Reichgott correctly states, go to medical schools outside the US. Many of them go into graduate school for about a year or two and earn a “Master of Medical Sciences” degree, which is otherwise worthless beyond inflating your GPA for the admissions boards. Many of them also decide to go into osteopathic medicine (which is the type of school that Touro University of Harlem happens to be). Take nothing away from Touro University students, because they are smart and are worthy of practicing in the US. But notice what I’m getting at here: They come from the same population of applicants that SGU students came from. In fact, Touro University was one of three medical schools that accepted me before I chose to go to St. George’s University.
(cont)
I can certainly appreciate Dr. Reichgott’s concerns, since medical students in New York should be able to continue their education comfortably. But this isn’t an issue that should be blamed on Caribbean medical schools. Rather, the dissatisfaction should be focused upon the limited number of clerkship spots being made available (in fact, Dr. Reichgott acknowledges that New York medical schools were not filling the available clerkship slots as it is). We are facing a shortage of doctors in America as it is, and we will be doing ourselves a disservice if we continue to try to regulate competent students out of the system.
SGU surely gave me a chance at medical education, when All Other medical schools in Canada wanted a 95 percentile MCAT score and a 4.0 GPA..what do you want? Robots??????
BTW, I had to get 100% student loan for my tuition Mr. REACHgott, its not what you thinking? Go do some research or do something good with your degree rather than taking clerkships from students who should’ve been studying in their own country to start with…
My wife, who has a Master's Degree from Johns Hopkins, and scored well on her MCATs, was wait listed at US Medical schools due to her age and the fact she was a mother (she was told this by a Yale admissions officer). St. George's University is a school that offers opportunity to the non-traditional med student. Perhaps not all that are admitted are of the highest caliber, but these students will be sorted by the USMLE. I applaud SGU for giving opportunity where opportunities are not always available (even if it is not always for altruistic reasons).
The NY schools are being whiny. If they're truly concerned about the influx of foreign medical graduates, they should expand their class size to match the expanding population.
from 2004: http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/nov04/cogme.htm
All this talk of 'plans' to expand and open (I mean "working towards opening" to quote Reichgott) sounds like biding time. Meanwhile, society needs more physicians.
The US schools need to get their act together and Reichgott just sounds bitter. Meanwhile, SGU is going to fill society's need, like it or not.
can i get a transcript of this?
Two issuse here
it all comes down to the fact that- is the university accredited? yes. eventually they write the same board exams as other U.S medical schools and perform up to or even above the USMLE standards( the same standards set for U.S med school) hence you can not discredit the school based on "unqualified doctors" the issuse is- are they taking up spaces from the U.S medical students............this i doubt.
Even if St. George's University students did possess lower GPA's and MCAT scores (Which they don't), would that translate to worse patient care? NO! I have stood next to numerous medical students and physicians that are amazing on paper, (i.e. highest scores and gpa's) and they are accepted to their respective schools because of this. However, when they try to discuss with their patients a problem that they are having they represent the lowest 10% in ability. I have observed this and discussed this with many of my patients. This is something that Sanji definitely, ALL medical students, and physicians ought to think about when talking to their patients. In review,
I have proved: High GPA + High MCAT DOES NOT = good patient outcomes.
The tuition for St. George students and American Medical Students seems to be almost on par. Why is it that the American medical schools are not willing to share some of their tuition with the hospitals?? I think the issue comes down to American medical schools wanting to maintain the same degree of profit from their students as opposed to investing it in clinical rotations. Many American schools seem to feel threatened that it may come down to them having shell out more money for their students. And why shouldn't they? The conditions in many inner city hospitals is below standard and more needs to be done to increase the level of care and the quality of facilities available to the public.
I am appalled by the NUY and Albert Einstein SOM deans, they make a big fuss about SGU students taking away their clerkship spots? They are trying to ruin the reputation of SGU right before the interview season begins! Why are they trying to undermine us, US citizens, people who wanted to do more than just accept the fact that there are less spots available in the US medical schools then there are qualified applicants? These people make me sick; all they care about is money, money, and more money. For most of these administrators, medicine is nothing but a business, and now they are loosing their monopolies over hospitals that are in need for financial support. These medical schools will have to pay more money, for clerkships, out of the tuition that their medical students are paying, which means less money for their pockets. They are trying to make SGU look bad from any angle they can find (low MCAT scores, low GPA, not up to par education). I think it is all bogus, it is all about loosing money and power.
I am an SGU student starting 4th year of clerkship electives. I got a score of 248(99th percentile) on USMLE step 1 and 261(99th percentile) on USMLE step 2. My scores are probably better then most of the students from American Medical schools. When rotating in some of the hospitals in New York where American Med Students are rotating SGU students are praised in comparison not only on their clinical knowledge but also on their clinical skills, attitude and patient relations. Coming from a foreign medical school it is a known fact that it is more difficult for us to get competitive residency programs so we have to work and study twice as hard as the American medical students to be able to obtain less glamorous positions. We are just as qualified as the American medical students if not more simply because we do not have another choice. We cannot impress the program directors by a fancy school name, we have to impress them by our scores, knowledge and clinical skills.
1) Dr. Reichgott fears that, with foreign students paying hospitals more for clerkships, US schools cannot expand their classes without raising tuition. This, in turn, steers medical graduates away from primary care becuase they have more debt and primary care pays less. This is only a small part of the equation and hugely unfair to foreign medical graduates, who for years have filled the empty primary care spots vacated by US graduates who are uninterested in the smaller income and status of the field. Many foreign medical schools would not have been created if this gap did not already exist. Thus, it is illogical and unfair for Dr. Reichgott to blame outsiders for the lack of primary care providers in the US. The problem originated here, the solution came from abroad, and the answer is to fix the deficiences of the system that made primary care unnattractive in the first place.
2) Hospitals are in trouble. The current fiscal drought is hitting healthcare especially hard, in large part due to a poorly structured medical-legal system. As a result, patients suffer, and so do those who work in the medical industry. I see much of the argument in this interview as a consequence of the constriction of medical resources.
The cogent issue here is the availability of medical training in the US. The AEMS rep diverted the argument by attacking the qualification of SGU students. It has long been acknowledged that the US is NOT producing enough physicians. The AMA is trying to offset falling salaries by creating shorter supply. This strategy has NOT been working for decades and it still won't work! SGU stepped in to fill the deficit with qualified, highly trained MDs for not only NY, but the US. The majority of students are US citizens.
The US system has errantly placed too much emphasis on predicting ability based on biased, unreliable, and invalid exams and GPA systems. Research shows the insignificance and unreliability of these systems to predict someone’s ability to be a good MD. For example, I have a BS, a M.Div., and a M.S. My Masters GPAs were 4.0 and MCAT was a 31. I was rejected from US schools (MD & DO). Asking about my rejections, I was told I was too ‘old’, my learning disability would hinder me, and my GPA in undergraduate was too low. SGU, however, gave me a chance to become a MD and I am proud to say that I am a leader in the class and anticipate remaining so. Apparently, I was not ‘qualified’ enough to be a US med student, including an AEMS student. If US med schools are having such trouble perhaps they should reevaluate their decision-making process instead of attacking other institutions. One should look to themselves for mistakes before pointing them out in others.
SGU's tuition is $4000/year more than Einstein's, I think less than NYU and Weil/Cornell. These NYC schools for years have been promoting diversity of the student population, but snubbed me completely. I was a 42 year old who went back to school, did a post-bac 2 year program to get my prerequisits and took the MCATs. I had a 3.7 grade point, and a 32 on my MCATs, and ran a business repairing ships full time. I didn't even get an interview. When I asked why later the Dean of Admissions at Weil/Cornell told me it was because my gpa from 21 years ago was too low and therefor no one even read my application. SGU called me after I sent in my application to them, invited me to an interview, and basically took me on the spot. Today I'm an Emergency Physician at a major teaching hospital in Michigan. Screw all the NYC schools, their admissions people, and their uppity attitude. SGU saw me for what I really was, and gave me a chance.
I'm currently a 3rd year SGU student, and during the process of applying to medical school, I received approximatley 7 interviews to US medical schools and was not given a spot. Most all the interviews I went to said I was at a disadvantage because I was an out of state resident (being from california), and even though my stats were higher than those instate residents, they had a slight advantage. California has 8 allopathic medical schools, for a population of about 40 million while new york has almost double the amount of medical schools with a fraction of the population. So if anyone wants to bring up the argument, are US graduates better, rethink what you are saying, because many schools including your beloved US schools give spots to less qualified instate residents, and I see why they do that, and don't disagree. However, I would just like to clarify that because many are under the false belief that SGU students are less qualified than US counterparts. Aditionally, my sister is chief resident at a great NYC hospital, she graduated from an American school. Many SGU students rotate under her, and she tells me how qualified the SGU students are and know a lot more than several of the american medical students. Before you judge a school you've only heard of, and make false comments, why don't you do a little research first...
Dr. Reichgott's point seems pretty solid at first. If clerkships are a commodity, the cost of medical education is going to be higher. The result is more debt among students, which will push them away from primary care where they are needed toward lucrative specialties. So the primary care physician shortage in the US increases.
But how many people with over 200K of debt really change their career choices over an extra 20K (40K/yr tuition at SGU vs. 35K/yr at a US school)? I can't imagine a 10% increase in debt changing my desire to be a primary care physician.
I don't understand why there is so much objection to SGU taking over HHC. I have stats well above average for US school, I am a NYC Paramedic with a lot of experience and I have applied to US schools twice without any success. SGU was the only way out for me and I am very happy this is happening!
I am a child to immigrant parents, first generation to finish college and now in medical school. I applied to US schools 3x, MCAT 29, undergrad NYU GPA 3.2, two Masters degrees (3.8/3.98), J Exp Med primary publication, awards at 2 international meetings for MY research and fluent in 3 languages. Personally, I feel that City schools are now threatened by individuals like me that are realizing their dreams and will enter a top notch specialty not only because of our intelligence, but our drive to leave our homes and families to realize a dream that was denied in the US. Please admit me to the HHC rotation based upon my USMLE score, because I will surpass those of mainland schools and still stay to practice in my NYC!
We live in a free market and capitalist society. The market usually fixes itself (with some current exceptions with oil and housing, which is a different issue all together), but regardless it is up to the market to direct the people. SGU provides not only great education, but financial rescue to struggling hospitals. Do I lose sleep over SGU students 'taking up' US school spots? Absolutely not. SGU provides a service to these hospitals and, like any good business deal, benefits from it. Yes, we do pay more than most US schools, but, like many others have written, it is more DEBT to each student. All this tells me is that these students are willing to go the extra mile to acheive their dream of becoming a physician. And at the same time I know first hand that we do NOT pay as much as some in the US. I applied to the University of Colorado a few years ago and they sent me back a note allowing me to pay the $275 processing fee for second round consideration, but they also warned me that as an out of state student I would be paying about $75,000 a year if I were to be accepted. Many non-resident students of state schools pay outrageous amounts such as this example every year and we never hear about them.
The reason people even care about SGU is the preconceived notion that Caribbean schools provide substandard education. And they may do such. But take each school on its own merit and statistics and then we can have a real discussion about the students from SGU. Not a generalized opinion of all Caribbean med schools.
My final thought about SGU paying the hospitals for clerkships spots is this: if any college/university is worried about losing spots to Caribbean students because we pay for our spots, then catch up to the game. Of course a hospital will be more willing to take students who are paying them for their training than students who don't pay anything. Dr. Modica's deal fills a need at these hospitals and, like it or not, that's what the hospitals want. If they didn't then this discussion wouldn't be taking place. I care very little about US students not getting what they want. I (and many other US national students) went the extra mile, giving up everything they know, to pursue an education to fulfill a dream that other schools wouldn't allow us. So I say tough cookies to all of the crying about taking up spots. If the US schools caught up to the game and increased enrollment than there would be less student being taught in the Carribean, period. They haven't done so and SGU has.
The school is a veritable medical machine, turning out more qualified physicians each year than many state schools do each year combined. Dr. Modica fills a need and the market allows it, and that's that. To all other nay-sayers: you can eat it.
Its a real shame that so many spots in New York schools are taken by foreign students
leaving the USA students to have to leave
the country Of course this is a nation
of opportunity for all
but is this really fair? As far as the level of education it is top notch
many many directors of Med here (MOntefiore Westchester Med etc.)all over the city graduated from SGU You would be really surprised
the facilities are state of the art and so
are the wonderful Doctors and staff
These future doctors should be back here doing their last years -its where they should have been in the first place!!
I find it interesting that Dr. Reichgott entered into a debate with SGU and could only argue about foreign medical schools in general. Seems like an ignorant way to debate the issue.
We have the stats and requirements that any US school would want. SGU students go above and beyond everyday to acquire the knowledge that is needed to be excellent doctors. We are in Grenada surviving on shear passion for the science that drives our carrier choice. Don't underestimate our hard work. We deserve theses spots! And just because our Chancellor had the foresight 30years ago to create opportunity's for SGU students doesn't give NYC schools a right to look down upon our achievements.
SGU FOR LIFE
Class of 2011
There is one important point that hasn't been made. The contract that SGU made prevents other less qualified Caribbean schools from taking spots in the hospitals. The contract is not taking any spots away from New York med schools, and it is making room for more SGU students that are better prepared to become physicians.
Also, Dr. Reichgott's so worried about his "diversity" yet that very "diversity" is not representative of the US population in any way, shape, or form. US medical schools have lost their focus on providing good doctors and have focused instead on thier "diversity". It's nice to see SGU giving those people who aren't diverse enough for US med schools a chance and for taking those people who don't necessarily fit the "ideal" student. I don't want a student taking care of me. I want a good doctor! Go SGU!
Hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Does everyone realize that Einstein's website has a dedicated "GIFT OPPORTUNITES" page? I know SGU's site doesn't solicit monies like this. Here is the link to their site:
http://www.aecom.yu.edu/home/gift_opportunities.asp
Not only that, NYU renamed their facility after a benefactor who provided $250 MILLION DOLLARS. Here's the link:
http://communications.med.nyu.edu/news/2008/nyu-medical-center-changes-name-honor-chairman-board-wife
Regardless of who did what/says what/graduates what, the NY medical schools are playing a card they shouldn't here since it opens them up to increased scrutiny, which I think they will dislike. SGU has to repeatedly defend itself and its academic record. Let's see what the court of public opinion feels about the sale of our fine institutions in NY.
BTW: NY born and raised for over 30 years; SGU alumnus '04. Now working as an doc at an Einstein affiliate. Don't tell anyone lest they find out an inferior 'rich kid with a bad MCAT' is teaching their students how to save lives.
Schools in NY should welcome the idea of using student tuition and other monetary gifts to maintain the local teaching hospitals educating their students. If SGU can budget in the students' interests, NY schools should be able to do the same. It not only will ensure that these hospitals remain open, but will ensure a quality of education for all medical students
1 out of every 4 doctors in the U.S. are foreign medical school graduates. 99% of foreign medical school graduates FILL the spots of areas that are deemed underprivileged, especially in primary care - nationally. This data is public and you can find it with ECFMG. The U.S., let alone, the state of NY, NEEDS us. We take the SAME board exams and residency as ANY person who would like to be a physician in the U.S. The argument that the Dean of Albert Einstein makes about questioning our qualifications, is clearly an "old school" one. Standardized test scores are NOT indicative of intelligence, and SGU looks at a "whole" student for acceptance, INCLUDING standardized test scores. We arguably work harder, are more determined, because we KNOW that people such as the good Dean from Albert Einstein stigmatize us solely based on the fact that we come from an "off shore" school. We are NOT rich, take out MORE loans, and may have applied to a U.S. school first due to convenience of cost, not moving to another country, staying close to our families, and fulfill an academic goal. NOT because U.S. schools are BETTER than SGU. We are comparable to all the LCME guidelines, AAMC guidelines and these organizations RECOGNIZE us as such. In addition, HHC gave us spots based on merit, NOT because they were "bought" by SGU. HHC would NOT want to lessen their mission by giving spots to substandard potential physicians. If a NY school made the same deal, no one would question it.
Being a doctor is about being hardworking, persevering against all odds, being self-sacrificing, having the passion to study medicine and to offer your knowledge to the community...SGU students without a doubt embody all of these characteristics, and have the USMLE scores to back it up.
Many of the accusations made against SGU were based on stereotypes and completely false. Dr. Reichgott claimed that SGU students were wealthy just because their tuition is approximately 5,000 more than the average US school (not taking into account the inflated tuition for out of state students in the US). How does that explain the fact that the majority of the students are taking out FULL LOANS to finance their dreams of becoming a doctor. The NYC hospitals themselves also confirmed that these alleged clerkship spots for SGU students in no way compromise the spots for US students. Most medical students at SGU ARE US citizens (mostly from the NY area) and WILL stay to practice in the United states (many of them hoping to practice back home in NY). If there is a shortage of doctors and the hospitals are probably cutting down on resources due to financial problems, then why shun SGU for trying to alleviate these two problems?
I hope that whoever questions the legitimacy of the concerns and complaints brought up by Dr. Reichgott does their research more thoroughly so that they are better informed of the data and approach the situation with an unbiased eye.
(conti)
Also, based on published facts of residency matching for SGU students, the data clearly demonstrates that the majority of the placements (I will guess at least 60%) went into family practice, general practice, internal medicine, and pediatrics. As far as I know, all of those are primary care positions and definitely contribute much needed physicians to the US. If you don't believe me, browse the SGU alumni website, all the information is there.
I feel that interviewer was very biased -I'd expect more from public radio to give a balanced and inbiased view of this situation. Not only did she interrupt Dr. Modica from finishing his point, to allow Dr. Reichgott to speak, but she also gave Dr. Reichgott the last word and allowed him to continue far along after attempting to end the program the first time. This was truly a biased interview, and should be re-evaluated by the Public Radio program.
I am a student at SGU and wanted to respond to the idea that SGU students have lower MCAT scores than US students and that we are more "affluent."
I had an MCAT score of 31 which is significantly higher than the US average of 27 mentioned in the program. Yet, I couldn't get into medical school in Canada. I have friends in Canada with 4.0 gpas and high 30s on the MCAT that don't even get interviewed for medical school in Canada, let alone accepted. I think there just aren't enough spaces in US (and Canadian) schools for the number of qualified applicants and I am very grateful that St. George's University has given me the opportunity to achieve my academic aspirations.
Also, Dr. Modica very rightly said that SGU students are NOT more affluent than the US students, as it has been suggested. I am paying for my education 100% with student loans and all of the US and Canadian classmates that I know are doing the same.
I am very much looking forward to doing my clerkships in New York and experiencing the world-renowned level of medical education that the city has to offer.
Its a free mark and St. George should be able to compete for positions just like any other medical school.
I am a grad of SGUSOM class of 2001, I graduated at the top of my class from RPI and receive 1 of 4 university awards, I had a 3.9 GPA, I would never change my experiences at SGU. I saw medicine in all forms--3rd world, socialized and in the USA. I worked hard, took all the same exams as students from US schools, I got into my 1st choice for residency at Buffalo Childrens and then went to Yale for neonatology. I am currently an attending at Childrens in Boston. I was born and raised in the USA. SGUSOM is a strong school with strong valves, teaches individuals how to think independently and to function well in a global community. I think American/NYU schools are just concerned because SGUSOM are smart and competitive.
I am currently a student from St. George's that just started a clerkship in NJ. In regards to the basis of our GPA and MCAT scores, being put into the same pool as other "Off-shore" schools is ridiculous. I had a GPA of 3.5 and MCAT score not too stellar (24), but did research and worked in the hospital to gain experience. Maybe these scores weren't deserving of an acceptance into any American school but one of my close friends did. He had GPA of 3.75, took MCAT 3 times and avg. 32, did research, and ended up going to a DO school. He has no complaints and says he is better off without a doubt in his mind.
Another reason why we shouldn't be put into the same pool as other "off-shore" schools is the fact that there are schools outside that don't even have an interviewing process or if they do, they conduct one over the phone. These schools typically have no US accreditation.
Beyond that St. George's is not a school you can guarantee an acceptance into. I know people who have not been accepted as well as being accepted, but into the MPH program or Foundations program to build up their GPA. So not any "Joe Smoe" can just get into to this school.
One of my Attendings said something to me that I take to heart. "No one is born a Doctor. You have to work hard and consistently throughout to be one no matter where you went to school."
P.S. I don't come from an affluent family nor do the majority of my friends at SGU. Get the facts straight.
NY schools and growth impeded and threatened by foreign schools and the free market? please. Health in America is a free market.
I am a SGU student, and I am by no means affluent. If you look at the statistics for US school vs. SGU, I'm sure that the percentage of students who are completely financing their education (like me) vs. paying out of pocket is the same.
Regardless, we as medical students (US & SGU) are all paying a lot of money for our education.
It is a giant cop-out to say that these so called "Affluent students" attending SGU are the root of the problem.
I know Mr. Einstein said he was not attacking the students, but statements like that are in my opinion malicious.
i just wanted to respond to Dr. Reichgott's comments when he talked about sgu students being rich! first of all any logical person who can put alittle bit of time on researching the stats will know for sure that was a false statement, and we all have huge loans to pay off, as one of my colleque's said more than a house loan.
but what i wanted to say is that even if Dr.R statement was true!! what does that have to do with anything or our clerkships? Our USMLE grades "UNITED STATES MEDICAL LICENSING EXAM" ( stat shows we have equal or higher scores than average us medical schools), our performance in the hospitals during the past 30 years, and the residency positions that we have held speaks for itself clearly in demonstrating our qualtiy of education, knowledge, determination and capablities, and shows our clerkships in any of the us hospitals such as NY, NJ, CA...has been and is more than well-deserved.
Now, In light of all this "real" data and factors,Im not sure why would my "richness" as a person be anybody's business!! and be even related what so ever to this discussion!!!
however, if Dr.R insists to focus on richness as the more important factor (than all i just mentioned) to tease non-qualified future doctors from the rest, then I wont argue with it any further! lets start with US schools then, check students bank accounts, and see how many of your students are "rich" and not qualified?? who cares about their actual performance as a doctor!
Most American medical students have no intention of working in innercity hospitals like HHC after they garduate! Subsequently, many of the housestaff and attendings who do work at HHC are themselves foreign medical school grads. It's preposterous to not allow training access to the the very people who run these hospitals.
Part 1
Argument: SGU will take clerkship positions from NYC hospitals:
- I am confused why a system/society that places so much value on capitalism would take issue with underfunded hospitals receiving money. And, why can the NYC universities that charge comparable tuitions not attempt to do the same?
- If these hospitals receive more money, would it not be feasible that perhaps the money could be used to ensure competitive salaries for primary care physicians?
- If these clerkships were not allowed to SGU students fewer qualified doctors would be practicing medicine today. How would this affect primary care?
- If money were provided for ALL clerkships, would that not provide the financial opportunity for MORE clerkships to be created?
Part 2
Argument: SGU students are more affluent than NYC students.
- my experience is that most of the students are funding their education entirely on loans (including myself)
Implied Rhetoric: SGU students are rich so they might as well pay their way into becoming a doctor.
- ANY person that gives up friends and family, EVERYTHING they know and are comfortable with, to pursue a career in medicine shows dedication that I think is admirable. I would hope any US trained doctor could have as much.
Argument: SGU students are less qualified.
- Not true, please see aforementioned statistics (in a different response). Many places reject students that would have been accepted had they resided in a different state, province, or country (more difficult to get into some Canadian than American schools). I personally had a 99.8 percentile on the MCAT, a score of 40 Q. However, 9 years ago, I was too social (a problem many high GPA doctors these days CERTAINLY could not have if they tried) and only had a 2.9 GPA.
I feel the arguments either to be weak, or rhetoric.
Even if we were to consider some of them true, they do not impact the situation negatively. If more wealthy doctors does not mean fewer doctors from more socio-economically diverse backgrounds.... it really means more doctors. And would you choose not to go to a doctor that came from a rich family?
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