On Demand
Denied!
Monday, June 23, 2008
The U.S. Department of Education is investigating whether a top-scoring Asian American student was denied admission to Princeton because of his race. San Francisco Chronicle columnist Jeff Yang weighs in on the issue.
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This comment pertains to the segment on NYC gifted and talent policies.
I have two daughters who tested into G&T programs but many years apart. Catchment preferences created a racially diverse G&T program not only at my daughter's good but one about 20 blocks north of our home on the Upper West Side. My the time my daughter graduated minorities outnumbered Caucasians at both programs and many of the kids who attended them, from whatever background, went on to excellent middle and high schools. This year however, we revisited both G&T programs to determine the best program to put our daughter into and each program represented its own racial enclave. The G&T program in her neighborhood school is almost exclusive white, so much so that black parents testing into this school opt out of sending their children there. The G&T program 20 blocks to the north is almost exclusively minority. The attitude of many white parents towards minorities, moreover, has undergone a radical shift towards ugly racism as a troll of Urban Baby will attest to.
Has a white person ever complained that he/she were denied admission because of their race or color? This is what's wrong with this country--all other color can complain but if a white person complain of the same thing, they're racist.
BTW --I'm not white. I'm Asian-American but without all the Asian features attached with an Asian (more hispanic looking) and guess what even Asians discriminate against me. Asians are so insular that they only treat whites or other Asians of the same class with respect.
there was a white women a few years back. she sued and won. i think it was in Michigan and went to supreme court.
i wonder if there are class based quotas at Princeton?
#2 - kane,
many white people complain they are denied admission and jobs based on their race; there has been a simmering controversy and many court cases over the last 30 years of affirmative action driven by complaints of whites that they were denied admissions or jobs; a majority of whites oppose affirmative action based on the complaints you seem to be saying don't exits
so it is very common for whites to complain about this and thus there is the concomitant stigma where whites often assume blacks and others got their job or admission based on their race; so i am really not sure what you are talking about
White people complain all the time. Where have you been and how can i get there. Also no one cares what you look like unless you are not human( only because if you were something else your grasp of language would be amazing).
So they got denied from Princeton, big deal.
They'll just end up at Columbia, Yale, or Brown.
Their post college career in I-Banking (Boys) Non-Profit/Publishing/Media (Girls) is over.
Poor, poor, poor discriminated-against asian americans.
Princeton isn't even the best school. Harvard and Yale are much better reputation and accept more diverse student population.
I have a friend from Harvard though and I can't stand it when he talks so it's not just where you go to college. It is how you come across when you meet people. People with class put other people at ease around them and make them feel comfortable. Anyone can have that, doesn't matter where you go to college or your race.
But if the student had such sterling creds, he probably got into other schools-- good ones, prestigious ones- with flying colors. It's not a God-given right to go to one's dream school. Plenty of us don't and go on to lead happy lives.
I seriously doubt that Princeton admitted any students who were objectively unqualified, it is highly competetive and selective and admission is not a right. Lots. LOTS of qualified applicants are denied.
I agree with Theresa. So he didn't get into Princeton even with his grades, big deal! I bet there are plenty of people with equally good grades out there who applied to Princeton and also didn't get in. With so many kids perfectly qualified to get into the top universities there are other things taken into consideration in the acceptance process. For example, maybe this guy was just pretty dull otherwise. Maybe other people with equal scholarly accomplishments had a bit more going for them, personality-wise, or extra-curricular-wise.
Besides, Princeton? Bla. He should just get over it, maybe count himself lucky.
HAHAHA!!! A landlord picking an artist over an investment banker?! How naive can one person be?!?!
Anyone with a index filing fee and the ability to write can file a lawsuit. Doesn't mean it has merit.
caller, i'm sure princeton takes some federal funds, but that's not the point.
The same seems to be the case for geographical admissions. I attended a small liberal arts college in New York State and it was my understanding that they gave some degree of preference to those from outside of the tri-state area. Whether or not correct, I think admissions preference not entirely related to achievement is part of the larger system of private colleges.
Are applicants to Princeton required to give their race? For many applications, school and otherwise, checking a box for race is optional.
"So his daughter is American with an asian last name but is competeing with Chinese kids" Wow!!!!!
Did Jews complain about this when being jewish made you a diversity candidate? Where does this kid get taught his feeling of entitlement?
Test scores/grades and race are not the only two factors considered. If you have lots of kids who are "well-rounded" (as your speaker suggested) by knowing piano and violin, how can you expect a school to want people who are carbon copies. Maybe Princeton needed a oboeist!
here's something i would like to keep in check in our already too-industrial approach to everything - that our culture (and the childhoods of our people) becomes dominated by severe test score achievement orientation
the "narrow bandwidth" he's talking about is dangerous!
I have a friend who lives in Singapore and says culturally there is little creativity and an utter lack of social graces, next to her native Australia Europe and USA - just "book-smartness" - then violence against children and seal-loathing (she gets jobs because she's blonde in Singapore)
All of this fighting over entrance into elite universities---what a waste. The real issue is the dis-investment of states in their state university systems, such that 'state school' is an epithet rather an aspiration. I did my both my undergraduate and graduate degrees at Big Ten universities (UW-Madison and U of Minnesota), and received a terrific education from each. If only states were to put sufficient resources into their systems, bright students wouldn't feel they HAD to attend an Ivy. The issue of justice is less about who can get into an elite school, but why isn't good education available to all.
I am a college professor who grew up in the Bronx and was lucky enough to attend Harvard University. I am white.
I think parents and students have to understand that a huge number of qualified applicants apply to each of the prestigious schools (most of them, to several prestigious schools). The schools don't have enough seats for every person who would do well at that school. No one would want to be at the school that accepted only the students who had the highest SAT score, or whatever other numerical score.
I'm astounded, also, that a student who was admitted to Yale is complaining because he didn't get into Princeton. Any student, of any race, should be happy to be given the chance to go to any one of the Ivies (whether or not they decide that they want to go).
Last caller said, "My kids are competing with other Asian kids, not white kids, and that's not fair!"
Move the words "white", "black", "hispanic", etc. in the language of the discussion in this show and you get a more interesting debate.
Let's have a REAL discussion about race in America, Obama!
The hypocrisy is revolting.
Race/Ethnicity is in fact a factor in admission decision, as far as I know. Some colleges pay more attention to minority group rather than majority because they want to bring in diverse student body.
What would happen if we skipped checking a race/ethnicty identity box?
Jeff Yang continues to state that Asian-Americans should not focus solely on educational achievement to define success. That's fine. I agree that Asian-American youth should consider a wide-range of means to contribute to society and better themselves.
Nonetheless, Yang's position side-steps the Princeton issue (the focus of the radio segment) because he's basically saying that while he's not ruling out the potential for discrimination, such applicants should consider extra-curricular activities to round themselves out as not just Princeton admissions candidates but as young citizens. I think that goes without saying, no?
Way to dodge the issue, Yang!
I'm not sure that checking or not checking the race/ethnicity box is relevant for some people, as many names are identifiably Asian, especially when people choose not to replace their Asian names with Western ones.
Heaven forbid an Asian American have to goto a *gulp* state school.
Heaven forbid an Asian American have to think *gulp* outside the box.
Heaven forbid an Asian American have to try to find a career/job/life purpose outside of the *gulp* norm.
Why are there still boxes to check? Why do people [not I] still check them? Do we not wish "not be judged by the color of [our] skin but by the content of [our] character"?
There is a reason why they tell even the top-of-the-top students to apply to many schools, not just one or two. Nobody is, or should be, a "lock" to get into any school, especially a so-called selective one. All those schools have many more applicants than admission slots.
I object to the anti-Asian comments being made here, such as those labeling Asian Americans (all of them, not just the man who filed the lawsuit) as whiners and accusing them as a GROUP of having a sense of entitlement. I guess only whites are allowed to have this. Many Asian Americans have immediate family who lived in internment camps or died in the Cultural Revolution or in the Korean or Vietnamese wars. Some are descendants of the Asian slave labor who built the railroads. And don't forget the Asian Exclusion Act.
Further, they experience discrimination at work as they are seen as being hardworking yet not status-seeking--therefore they're given more work to do yet are less likely to be promoted. The racist comments on this page prove there is discrimination.
Without knowing the details of the lawsuit, people's opinions about it are irrelevant. There may or may not have been racial bias.
Further, to the person who suggested it, we cannot go on NAMES to show ethnicity. Parents and grown children marry, remarry, change names, adopt children, etc. so a person may have a different ethnicity from their name. And spellings can vary too: Names such as Lee, Young, or Jung could be Asian or otherwise.
In short, I'm a bit horrified at some of the comments on this page. If these are made by listeners to a progressive radio show, it doesn't bode well for moving toward a color-blind society.
kane, I guess you aren't aware of Regents of the University of California v. Bakke.
In 1978 Allan Bakke charged that he was denied admission to UC-Davis medical school because he was white. Nevermind that he didn't challenge the admission of thirty-six white students with lower GPAs than his that year. Nevermind that he didn't challenge the legacy admissions of five students whose parents where either alumni or had given money to the school. Oh, and of course he didn't bring up the fact that he'd been the recipient of special privileges as an elementary school student in the "illegally segregrated Dade County, Florida school district."
Apparently, none of this was relevant. All that mattered was that sixteen minority "special admits" took the spot he felt entitled to.
perri,#30:You're spot on about that case.
And Victoria, #29, as one Asian to another, can we get over the claims of racism? Yes, there is a history of racism, but things have changed. And now we can look "forward" to an Asian century. Bring on the MSG, baby! (or not.)
I will admit you have a point about discrimination in the workplace, but in my experience, people have always treated me and my asian friends/relatives better because of the Asian heritage. WHICH IS UNFAIR to blacks and hispanics and even whites now.
Asians in this country have reaped higher rewards than practically any other ethnic group in this country. Not without an assload of work, but that was to our mutual goodybag.
And it's not the fault of anyone here that our peeps had to suffer trauma in Asia (you brought up the cultural revolution.) Most trauma in Asia has historically been delivered by other Asians. Mao killed 70 million Chinese. How many Chinese did Hitler kill? Actually, quite a few Chinese casualties in during WWII were due to ill-trained Chinese pilots, but I digress....
Let's face it, "lazy" white Americans have been better to Asians on a historical basis than Asians have been to other Asians.
Let's move on and, sorry for the caps, but:
SCRU THE IDENTITY POLITICS, the stakes for all Americans are too high these days. It's not about women, or asians, or blacks, or, as Hedley Lamarr would say, "Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists..."
It's about surviving a three-to-ten degree increase in the average temperature here in the Western US, and higher increases in the developing world. It's about much bigger stakes than this whiner who can't go to Princeton. It's about survival for the planet. We're down to the nitty-gritty, the sad thing is, most people don't get it.
So bring on the MSG - with the rise in food prices, monosodium glutamate-flavored shoe leather may be all we have for the dinner table.
One thing I hadn't seen mentioned in this discussion is one of course or department one is applying to inside of the school. Inside of the same school it may be harder or easier to get into the curriculum based on popularity, or other 'fit' criteria that scores and grades may not represent [Economics vs. Engineering vs. Art History].
I'm curious, when comparing to his other high school classmates that got in, were any of them applying to the same department.
(Just listening now on podcast) --
Jeff points out that parents might learn that it isn't necessary to teach kids that "train this way -- do this and do that -- and you will get what you want" (like acceptance to a top school).
Let's remember that for many of those parents, that's a magical phenomenon for which they sacrificed much. Work hard and you will get what you want --
"The American Dream."
Whites are down to about 55% in the elite schools and half of them are Jewish. White Christians are the ones being discriminated against. Hispanic and black percentages are close to their demographics. White rural Christians are over-representative in Iraq deaths and wounded. Affirmative Action was suppose to be for blacks only.
Yes Eva,
You are right that if we are strictly talking about examples of racism that the Cultural Revolution does not belong on the list. My point, which I did not make clearly, was that many Asians--and this does not only go for Asians, but any immigrant group--have been affected by a cultural upheaval or trauma, and this may manifest itself in different ways. Some may feel they have been through a bad experience or have family who live in poverty, therefore they are not going to put up with not getting what they want--so they're going to sue Princeton or whatever. And that Asians have not had it easy.
I don't feel there is a huge amount of racism against Asians but after reading all these comments I was really taken aback at how Asian Americans are being blamed and labeled as a "spoiled" group because one guy filed a discrimination lawsuit.
I don't know how common discrimination at work is; certainly I haven't worked anywhere where Asians were in high-up jobs. It would sure be ironic if Exorcist (R) Bobby Jindal becomes the first Asian VP candidate!
ps This DID happen to me at work. I was told I was quiet, hardworking, and faster and better at the job so I was to do all the grunt work. (The "quietness" thing is utter crap; I also doubt that I was really better or faster than everyone else; maybe than some people, but most people there were hired through connections rather than skills, so some were slower than they should have been). My life there was miserable until I stood up for myself. I am just half Asian so maybe the boss felt it was OK, that I would understand. I was extremely surprised at the whole thing, believe me. I only blame this boss, not all bosses. But it was disturbing.
Hi Victoria,
Sorry I did not get respond to your latest posts until now. You have some interesting things to say. I don't know if you are reading this, but if you are, let me know. I hear you on the "half" part, and how people might take advantage of you at work.
I agree that Asians have not had it easy. But seriously? Here on the west coast, the white people are FREAKED out because, unlike where you're working, Asians are rising so rapidly through the corporate ranks. And check out the listings for the American Medical Association.
Wild. The West Coast has always been more Asian, quicker to integrate. We went through this whole identity group politics here back in the seventies, but the momentum from other asians was more toward success, and less toward political activism.
So: more the Booker T. Washington style, and less the WEB Dubois style. I guess it's worked for our group, but they got every other group here running. And seriously, I'm more worried about non-Asian groups - we're way ahead of the curve.
There's alot of anti-asian comments on this board.
#39, dana
If so, I suspect some of them have come from Asians. It is okay to criticize oneself - in fact, it is a traditionally Asian quality, one that other groups are welcome to emulate, and even do sometimes...
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