On Demand
Trading Down
Battered by gas prices, Americans drove 11 billion miles less in March of this year than they did in March 2007. While some people are turning to public transportation, some are turning to transportation of the two-wheeled kind. Wall Street Journal reporter Jonathan Welsh talks about the spike in scooter sales.
Read Jonathan Welsh's article, "Born to Be ... Fuel-Efficient"
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Comments
If one lives in NYC, then one does not need any kind of fossil fuel vehicle, be it a car or a scooter, to travel and live in the city. These mopeds or scooters are not the answer for NYers. I lived in NYC for 8 yrs and never had a car or any other fossil fuel vehicles, and it was the best time of my life. Get off your fat asses and walk or subway.
I second Jeff's thoughts. Never needed a car in 11 years in NYC. I lived in upstate New York for a year, only using my bike and cross-country skiis to get around. And I still refuse to drive.
Face it, for most of this nation's history, we planned our cities for walking and public transport, and our grandparents and great-grandparents were healthier for it. There's no excuse for what's happened to our public planning, and there's no excuse for the fact that it's been perfectly legal for the auto manufacturers to make gas-guzzling cars which contribute to air pollution and asthma. I find the higher gas prices to be terrifying for a whole variety of reasons, but if there's a silver lining of conservation, well, I gotta take what I can get.
Can Brian ask this WSJ reporter why Republicans are so against subsidizing public transport, but have no problem subsidizing airlines and building roads? How did public transport become such a plague?
In response to the two posters above, Jeff and Eva, who cited NYC's abundant public transportation as reason for not needing to own a car, I would like to remind them that not all of NYC has abundant public transportation.
If one lives in Manhattan, one can live quite nicely without a motor vehicle of any kind.
I live on Staten Island, which is a part of NYC, where:
a) there are no subways linking the Island to other parts of NYC;
b) bus service within the borough is barely adequate;
c) bus service to other boroughs is limited to one bus that goes to Brooklyn;
d) bus service into Manhattan is mostly rush-hour with only 2 or 3 bus lines that operate almost all day;
e) the railroad provides service to the South Shore;
f) yes, the ferry is free but it is not always time efficient.
Staten Island was not built for walking and overdevelopment of housing and underdevelopment of infrastructure and public services make Staten Islanders overly dependent upon cars. Many of us walk as much as possible but it's not always possible.
Our Subaru outback wagon gets about 30 mpg @ around 60 mph. Had to take a 50 mile detour this wknd off the interstate -- brought us down to about 40 mpg. Result -- Mileage went up to 38 mpg! (there's a readout on the dash of mpg)! Makes me wonder the optimum mph/ mpg and how that can be tweaked... I asked Subaru dealer this question, they just said, "go 55" for best mileage, they didn't have any other info.
Yeah, those scooters are great until you get sideswiped by a hit-and-run. I still have the roadrash scars to prove it.
That was in another chapter of life, though, and now that I'm in NYC, I've given my car to Mum and use public transport.
is it too late?
Paula - yet another reason to leave SI. the state should buy the island and make it a nature preserve
I have often wondered how safe these vehicles are on NYC's streets when those streets sometimes have large potholes.
David!
with a daughter you shouldn't live so recklessly.
posters don't even need any BL (kidding, of course we do)
I'm from Germany originally but moved to Melbourne a few years ago. Since I'm still in both countries each year, I've got a little scooter in both countries. It's great... I spend about US$ 8 per week on gas, I never had a parking ticket and I'm so much fast even during rush hour traffic! :-)
(GREAT SHOW!)
Paula is right, it's only if you live in or commute in and out of Manhattan that public transportation works best. The system was designed that way. It's not so hot for moving around inside the vast areas of the outer boroughs, or for getting from one outer borough to another. For example, why should I have to ride all the way through Manhattan if I want to get from Queens to Brooklyn?
I often see Vespas (and other scooters) parked on the sidewalk - motorcycles, too sometimes. Is it legal to park them there? Are there any rules related to this? (Just curious, I cycle everywhere and my engine burns about 40 calories per mile.)
hjs, that was before the daughter. That scooter, a Yamaha, got over 70 mpg and was perfect for getting around town--until that SUV decided it wanted to be in that lane where I was when I was. Seriously, the jerk didn't even stop.
Hi,
What about the emissions? Don't scooters have filthy 2 stroke motors.
matt
Do you need a motorcycle license to drive a scooter? or just a valid driver's license!
I've wanted a scooter ever since I was 15, and there are lots of days in NY that I would love to ride a scooter instead of a bus or subway. But every time I catch myself coveting a scooter on the street I remember that I have bike, and that anywhere I'd go on a scooter I could get to on my bike even cheaper and get some exercise at the same time.
When I was growing up in the 1960s, the Vespa was a local rage. The Vespa dealer was actually a local pharmacy. You'd walk in and find several 'scooters' lined up along your walk to the rear of the store for the medicine.
Driver Ed was the only course I flunked in high school in 1966. Stick to public transport!
We need your fares.
It seems that until the price of gas gets to a point that even Vespas are not practical, too many people in this county will not opt for public transportation. For areas with inadequate public transportation, the solution is to demand better service.
On another topic, the number one complaint to 311 in the city is noise. How nice to know that some people feel we don't have enough noise since they feel compelled to add to it.
The "motorini" as they're called in Italy have ruined almost every town large and small. They make pedestrian life harrowing; they smell; and, of course, they are unbearably noisy.
So why hasn't one of the key questions with $4 gas been asked yet? what is the MPG of the Vespa and its ilk???
Chris O and anyone else: any particular recommendations on bicycles? I'm really getting the itch to bike again.
Lived for some years in a city where most people road Vespas or other such motor bikes -- remains one of the best things I have ever done!
ps resale value is so high that you shouldn't factor in the cost of the vehicle as a loss.
First - Vespas (classic vintage 2-stroke) are the epitome of the scooter experience.
I have been a proud owner of my Vespa P200 since 1981 and moved it from LA to TX to NYC. It is not my primary mode of transportation since I commute from Crown Heights to Yorkville (UES), but there is nothing better for moving around the Borough on the weekends. My wife and I will also venture into LES or Queens, but riding through much of Manhattan is a bit too sketchy. And riding on any expressway on 10" (or worse yet 8") tires is INSANE!
My "P" has a custom bright taxicab yellow and black paint scheme and is freeway-legal (max = 70mph).
The Bridges are considered "Highways" and so vehicles must be able to go 55mph. The cops stop scooters they think are 50cc's or less...and therefore unlawful to go over the bridges.
I ride my bike in Prospect Park and I resent the scooter (non-Vespa, I'm guessing, though I know little about the difference) riders who come on the roadway when it's supposed to be car-free. Part of the joy of riding a bike in the park is the quiet--the absence of motorized noise. The scooters just stand out as one of those sub rosa irritants, almost fingernails on the blackboard irritating.
Zack, you need a motorcycle license to drive one larger than 50cc's
Where do you park your Vespa? How safe is it to park it outside? Is there always space (on the sidewalk or street?) to park?
Brian:
There are "Vespas" that are "much" cheaper that you've been discussing.
Many Chinese copies can be bought for under $800 (whether you support Chinese imports in another thing).
Here's an example of one for :
http://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/cPath/38_93/products_id/335
All modern scooters are "4-cycle" and are much quieter and do not smoke like the old classic Vespas.
I have been thinking about getting a scooter. I just moved to Mill Basin Brooklyn from Manhattan. I have a bike for the first time in my life, and I am loving it. But I'm finding that public transport is sometimes a real hassle out where I am and I'm having trouble doing certain things with just the bike. For example, I'm not comfortable doing a shop at a nearby nabe (like the Russian supermarket at Brighton Beach) and then taking it home on the bike. So my questions for scooter owners: is there a way to store groceries on a scooter? can you get around on them in colder weather?
Scooter drivers are good drivers. Scooter drivers usually do not cause danger for pedestrians.
What really bothers me are cyclists. Cyclists like to be treated with respect while using the road; however, cyclists often do not follow traffic laws themselves. Cyclists go against traffic and run to traffic lights.
Vespa drivers take their plates off (to avoid tickets) and park illegally all the time. It's a serious problem in the city....
Scooters are MUCH more dangerous than larger-wheeled vehicles, including mopeds, motorized bicycles, and regular bicycles. Walk, pedal, or go electric!
.. and what is the life-expectency of a typical scooter in terms of miles?
David!
damn SUVs! NJ or NY plates?
i'd like to see 2 avenues (one eastside, one westside) for bikes, emergency vehicles, smart cars and scooters only.
I'm not sure why there is a focus on how the noise from a Vespa is loud and obnoxious. I personally find the noise really not that bad--especially compared to the horrid noise of a harley or other motorcycles.
Moreover it seems that vespas and scooters are used honestly as transportion, whereas motorcycles and harleys are mainly used for joy rides to intentionally cause noisy revs and booms.
Where do all these scooter owners park their vehicles w/o finding them gone the next morning? I often ride my bike to Red Hook, but keep it indoors at home and at work, and it's only a $1000 investment.
I see these scooters parked on sidewalks, is that legal?
Brian, I believe you should clarify your earlier statement about scooters and their emissions. It is true that scooters emit more polutants PER GALON than some suvs. But considering they require so much less fuel per mile scooters are actually better for the environment, especially 4 stroke engines.
Regarding emissions of scooters. Hydrocarbons and other pollutants are measured in p.p.m. (parts per million) so even though a scooter without a catalytic converter may produce a greater measured number of hydrocarbons ,that number again is parts per million, an automobile will produce many millions more. So whats worse 100 ppm on a vehichle that will produce 100000 units in an hour or 10 ppm on a vehichle that will produce 10000000 units per hour of opperation ?
David,
A huge problem with bikes is theft. Therefore you do NOT want to spend a lot of money on a bike and you DO want to spend a lot of money on a lock. Of course, if you never leave it outside that is different. But it seems like you can get decent functional bikes in the $300 range. Check out a website like Bicycle Habitat to get an idea.
Miranda--you can get a rack and panniers and carry your groceries much more easily than on a scooter. Plus, the extra weight on the back of your bike actually stabilizes your ride. You can even get a "hitchless trailer" extension for your bike to make extra room for groceries or even passengers on back:
http://www.xtracycle.com/hitchless-trailers-kits-c-4.html
Here's one in action:
http://storkbitesman.blogspot.com/2008/04/start-em-young.html
hjs, i like that idea of dedicated avenues. the hit and run occured about two months before i moved to ny, but let me tell you, nc suv drivers are as bad as their northern counterparts.
btw, wnbc featured a report the other day showing nj drivers to be the worst in the us. and who's surprised?
Chris O, thanks for the tip. I've been checking craigslist a bit lately but haven't really seen anything that calls my name.
Storage: Some seats flips up, little storage there & I had a larger seat so I used a bungee net to hold bags down onto the seat behind me.
Scooter have sapce around feet but keep anything down there could be hazardous.
I owned a Honda 150 scooter in Boston in the '90's, my only motorized vehicle while living there. Top speed was 60mph and it got 75 mpg. I got the larger size so I could have a passenger. My only problem was theft. It got taken twice before the insurance company decided it had enough and totalled it after the last theft. They can be picked up by 2 men w/ a pickup truck.
I rode a bicycle thereafter, until THAT got stolen. I still have my 'M' designation on my license, just in case I want to get another...
Anywhere that you can get on a scooter a bicycle can get you in probably less time. No gas, No emissions, and positive benefit to your health to boot.
Often scooters wind up taking the little space that this city provides for bikes, people riding them on bike paths (once I saw a scooter on the bike path on the Manhattan Bridge). They are sometimes locked to bike racks.
I think it might just be another symptom of material excess. People see the only solution to car congestion in the city is to spend a lot of cash to get themselves another stylish accessory.
Jess, Thanks for the suggestions -- I will look into the panniers, (I had seen the attachable trailers but wasn't sure I liked them). MM
When I lived in the DC suburbs, I bought a moped when I was working in Rockville (farther out) & taking courses in downtown DC. It worked out pretty well, but I didn't take it to NYC when I moved here. I looked into it beforehand & found the laws were too restrictive, incl. a speed limit of (I think; this was in 1980, do it's been a long time) 17 mph!
I don't remember what make my moped was either, but its top speed on a level road was 30 mph, & it was orange (if I got hit by a car, I didn't want the driver to be able to say, "I didn't see her"!). That never happened, but I didn't get much respect from car drivers, esp. the ones who would try to pass me while staying entirely in the same lane.
Wow, a lot of myths and misinformation expressed in these comments, I don't know where to begin.
Yes, bikes and mass transit are better for you and the city but no they don't go everywhere, especially in the outer boroughs. And mass transit is slow, hot, crowded and smelly. Scooters a much more fun!
Yes, some vintage scooters have old, two-stroke technology which burns oil and pollutes more per gallon. But these are few and far between; modern scooters are 4 stroke, burn premium and meet all modern emissions standards. And due to the fact that scooters get 70 mph+ their carbon footprint is MUCH less than even hybrid cars.
Yes, scooters are not toys and can be dangerous. We recommend the MSF Basic Rider course and wearing the right gear. I have been riding a scooter in the city for years and have heard of only one fatality. Compare that to bicycles, which are much more dangerous. And as the WSJ article shows, they are less than 2x so than cars and only 20% as dangerous as motorcycles.
For more info on joining the growing NYC scooter community, visit the New York Scooter Club's website at: http://www.nyscooterclub.com/
I applaud the use of Vespas, especially in urban settings. However, in my experience, there is a decided downside to doing so. On a visit to Italy in 2002, I spent three days in Florence. Unfortunately, my Florence memory includes clouds of black exhaust fumes and constant, extremely loud roaring of Vespa motors. When I commented about this to some European friends, they thought there was a movement to improve the engines so that there would be less exhaust and noise. If so, it would be prudent for the U.S. to allow only newer engines that are quieter and non-poluting.
I agree with Brouhaha. I have a scooter and primarily use it to travel out of Manhattan. More economical, less polution and takes up less space than a car.
Used to ride a bicycle and felt more endangered riding that then a scooter.
I gave up the car for a Vespa. The train to work is 45 minutes (Brooklyn to Brooklyn, via Manhattan - makes sense eh?), the drive is 12 minutes. The Vespa is easier to park, saves on gas, and is a helluva lot more fun.
A bicycle is not feasible, I wear a suit and there are no showers at work (and I take the BQE, so to those that say a bike can get you anywhere a scooter can faster are making an inaccurate generalization).
And speaking of bicyclists, yeah, its a great mode of transport, but riders in the city seem to ignore all traffic regulations (and legally they are bound by them same as drivers) - running lights, riding on the sidewalk, wrong way down the street, etc.
So no, there is no one great fix. But bicycles are not the end all be all either. And a scooter is a lot better than a Hummer, so.....
Hey BESS,
How exactly is scooters parking out of other's way "A serious problem in the city"? That's a ludicrous statement. Ever notice the number of illegally parked "government" vehicles? Guess how much room they take up compared to a scooter? Have the same problem with bikes? They take up the same amount of room.
As a cyclist, I applaud anyone getting out of cars and onto smaller vehicles. At least I know when a scooter is coming - those things are noisy.
But Chris, #53, you shouldn't be sweating on a bike trip from Brooklyn to Manhattan. Where are the hills? Maybe just take those flat roads in NYC slower? it's safer, more enjoyable, and you won't work up a sweat. Or just ride in a lower gear.
As a former bike messenger, I know not only that there's a lot you can haul on a bike, but I've cycled in high heels and a taffeta skirt when necessary to get to an event. (tip: use "soft" not clipless pedals for that.)
Proof of what women all over in Beijing, Amsterdam, etc. can ride in.
You can do it too.
(But it makes a lot more sense to put the heels in your basket and wear flats until you reach your destination, not only for your safety, but to keep your suedes and patents in good shape.)
bikehugger.com/images/blog/girl_skirts.jpg
Make no mistake, these scooterists are looking to take over the city. With their putt putt whaa putt whaaaa pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa sounding two wheel monstrosities. Not only do they have great gas mileage, but they can park four of these where only one car can park. I've even seen two people on one of these Italian style transports. The other day I saw a pack of them heading out of the city, most likely to reek havoc on the suburbs. People above say they are fun, but you try to enjoy yourself when you can get to work 15 minutes faster(and your boss makes you clock in early). The only good thing I see here is that people are talking about this infestation.
check it out - two mattresses carried by a cyclist. Ain't no big thang.
http://www.bikesatwork.com/images/2mattresses.jpg
You can't do that on a scooter. Y'aint got the balance.
yeah, I know the whole world has seen this, but it's so cool...
German girls with balletic grace and damning precision. Fixies, but in an arena. Bad Euro rock. It just doesn't get better.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csFXnIpDTrE
The problem Eva, is that some
of these scooter riders have bikes too.
http://scooterfan.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/bike1.jpg
rk,
the bastids! Stop them!
I once rode my lemond from SF to Tahoe, using the back roads. I took the train back from Truckee to Oakland (too slow to ride the 300 miles back to be on time for work after the weekend), and from the train, I could see a man on a motorcycle, and he had a "sidecar" on the motorcycle for his bicycle. I didn't know you could do that with a scooter.
That is a nicely kept road bike. As for the scooter: not bad. I have actually contemplated getting a scooter, but since I have never owned or driven a car, I was also thinking it would be fun to get a smartcar. It might make me more respectable. Well, in California, it definitely would.
Eva, you said:
" shouldn't be sweating on a bike trip from Brooklyn to Manhattan"
If you read my post you'd have seen that I live and work in Brooklyn and the fastest, most direct route is via the BQE (I only go through manhattan because that is the most "direct" subway route). So a bike would lengthen my commute, hence the need to ride faster, sweat....
And if I'm on a bike I ride a bike, I don't want to poke along Wizard of Oz style, in a suit, that's just annoying.
Chris, besides, on a bike in a suit--you'd look like a Romney campaign worker / Mormon missionary.
ooooh, he really typed that!
I'm sorry, Chris, forget the route, what's the distance you're talking about, even if elongated with the bike? Taking it at 12-15 mph, steady spinning, and you're sweating? Take off the suit jacket and put it in the pannier? Just a suggestion.
For any one who is interested in buying a vespa. Brooklyn Vespa has just opened! Go take a look.
Sorry, Chris, what I didn't have time to explain earlier is this: YOU WANT TO MAKE THE BIKE WORK FOR YOU, not the other way around, it's an amazing piece of technology. If you're working up a sweat on a simple flat commute, here's a couple of suggestions (that also help when you're riding with the intention to sweat):
1) check your fit and position - if your body is tense because you're poorly fitted, you're expending unnecessary energy, and yes, sweat
2) check your pedal efficiency. You want to milk the bike's momentum for everything it's got, and a clean, round pedal stroke lets you take advantage of that.
Of course, if you want to ride the scooter, ride the scooter. But no need to knock cycling for making you sweat, when it probably doesn't (or shouldn't, if you tidy up the technique.) And if you're concerned about time, remember that you can also take a bicycle on routes where the scooter isn't permitted, which may actually make the bike ride FASTER. With less fumes.
Why should a scooterist or motorcyclist have to defend why they are not riding a human-powered two wheel transport? Not in a car = more fuel efficient = cheaper and less congestion, which is the point. Not dealing with slow, crowded and delay-prone mass transit (especially those in "outer boroughs") is a secondary point. Getting to a zero carbon footprint and burning calories is BESIDES the point.
To compare the two styles of two wheeled transport head to head though:
- Scooters and motorcycles are in fact safer than bicycles. They go faster, so they keep up with traffic better. Yes, the risk of being blindsided or sideswiped by a driver is there, but it's also there on a bicycle to at least the same degree. I've done both (biked and scootered in Manhattan traffic), no question I feel safer with horsepower under me than pedals.
- Scooterists park illegally all the time. Yes, it's true, because cars knock them over and drivers physically move the smaller ones out of the way (or onto the curb) to take the parking space. It's something some people do out of convenience that is low-impact to the public.
- Bicyclists ride illegally all the time. They run red lights and stop signs, never use hand signals when turning and go the wrong way down one-way streets. As a pedestrian I've had far more near-misses with cyclists than with scooterists or motorcyclists.
Not all scooterists/cyclists are like this, but these are commonly seen behaviors and stereotypes.
If scooters didn't make sense for cities, there wouldn't be a BILLION of them (okay so maybe there's a little exaggeration there) in Asian and European cities...
Newer 4-stroke scooters (like the "Genuine Buddy") come with catalytic converters - so not only does it get close to 100mpg, it is as clean *per mile* than cars and SUV's...while contributing much less carbon. (part of the reason why emissions standards are much looser for two wheeled vehicles is because even though they emit more hydrocarbons in parts-per-million, which is a ration, this is offset by the lower fuel consumption.) As for "classic" scooters - they do emit more hydrocarbons into the atmosphere - but then again so do classic cars...
http://citybiker.wordpress.com
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