On Demand
Private Apples, Public Teachers
Monday, May 05, 2008
Should middle-class parents feel a civic duty to send their kids to public schools? Sandra Tsing Loh, columnist and host of "Loh Down On Science," joins us to discuss her Atlantic Monthly article about wrestling with the issue vis-a-vis her own children.
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Comments
General public is WAY overrated.
To be specific the kids are often consistently smart and interesting but the parents just horrifying. Ever get tailgated by an SUV? The parents.
What I have noticed is that parents of a certain income do not bother to find out much about the individual public schools that are available to them. They just assume that if they live in the city it means private school. If they have more than one kid they move to the suburbs and do public school there (and pay higher property taxes). If you cannot afford private school you find it is necessary to be an expert on the local public schools. New York City, predictably, has some of the worst and some of the best in the country.
As for the civic duty part of the question, it seems to me that your children are well served if they go to school with a very diverse population, racially, economically and academically. They will be culturally sophisicated when they graduate, provided that you have made sure that they are getting what they need academically and socially. The civic duty comes down to how you raise your children and how they see you deal with the larger world outside the home.
Here's my interest in this matter:
1-I have an 8-month old daughter.
2--I served in public ed for over 16 years, almost all of that time in the South, before I moved to NYC. I did teach in NYC before moving out of public ed, my intention and part of the reason of moving here.
I have already begun exploring my options for my daughter. I can't afford the non-parochial private schools, and I don't think I'd send her to one, even if I could. A recent NY Mag article about some Horace Mann students and their online character assassinations of some HM teachers is interesting and frightening.
So far, I'm not too impressed with what I've been able to find out about the elementary schools, at least those in the area where we live.
Although not Catholic, I'm leaning towards a Catholic school. The academics seem very sound, and I do like the discipline, although I cringe at the idea of sending my DAUGHTER to a school that will teach religious instruction from a perspective that says she couldn't be a minister in that church merely because of her gender.
HELP!
Yes, particularly parents of well-adjusted, clever children should send their children to public schools in order to raise the general standard in the schools. Parents who think their children are too good for public school should think again. It's not just about the teachers (who, in my experience in public school, are usually mediocre at best, with the rare pearl amongst them). It's about their children growing up with a diversity of friends and acquaintances, and not being rarefied. If a parent doesn't trust the quality of their child's education in a public school, guess what? They should get more involved in the education of their kids! They should do their homework with them and oversee what their kids are learning, the way they're SUPPOSED TO.
Too many parents think that they have the right to delegate the entire education of their child to a school. Excuses like they're too busy to help their kids with their homework are just that: excuses. That is a parent's job. If you don't do it, you're not doing your job. And that job is more important than all the other things you are doing, if you chose to have a kid.
Mind you, I hate kids, and don't intend to have any, but I can see how other people do it, and I can see who is experiencing success and who is experiencing depressing failure.
David! #4
What part of New York City do you live in?
mc #6--In Norwood in the Bronx (end of D line, near Botanical Gardens, etc.)
public school should be supported and improved. city parents should demand better. how will we get the middle class to come back to the city if city schools can't compete with the schools in the sprawl?
Hi David!
My kids are both out of elementary school but here is what we did (things may have changed since we did this). Check out the website Insideschools, I think it is dot.org, but you can google it. Also, get the book New York City's Benst Public Elementary Schools, by Clara Hemphill. Look up the schools in your district or region and the neighboring regions as well. We made a list and then called around and visited as many as possible. Bottom line: you need to find a good match for your child, and you know your child better than anyone else. Don't subscribe to the "cream of the crop" panic; sometimes the best schools for your child are not the ones in the newspapers. Look at the children's work displayed on the walls, get a sense of the principal and how he/she runs the school. Then close your eyes and imagine your child there. Does it fit?
k and 2nd grade? Doesn't matter which.
Poor immigrants have to learn english just like all other kids -- no difference.
Save your $$ for when your 5th or 8th graders are studying w poor immigrants who don't speak a word of english.
Cmon.
mc, thanks for the leads on the website and the Hemphill book.
Although I taught at the high school level, I was an administrator at the elem level. I have an idea of the type of school I want my daughter to attend, it's just making way through the magnitude of the NYC schools that is so daunting.
Again, thanks for your help!
I just want to point out that not all magnet schools are created equal. Here in Knoxville, predominantly black schools get classified magnet schools so that they do not have to be treated equally with other public schools, i.e. they get less funding than other county schools the moment they become magnet.
What WORLD is she from????
LOTS of RICH towns have 30% + poor immigrants who need to be fed and taken care of when they get to school!!
THIS IS THE COUNTRY'S ISSUE SANDRA
I attended a public school where kids would run wild over the desks, and anyone with ability was sent aside with a text book. 4 of us went on to university from my class, and despite doing well I would not want my kids in this kind of environment for their education. Public schools should be supported but we will always do the best for our kids, even if that is a different option.
I am middle class and white, but I went to inner city public schools during the 80s--80-95% minority, 80-95% poor. I was a plaintiff in a public schools desegregation lawsuit. I personally received a good education, but that was because they coralled middle class white kids into special honors programs that took us out of class. Also, my parents made sure I received training outside of school that I wasn't getting inside school and which neither the schools nor my schoolmates could afford (arts, computers, etc). The social problems really did spill over in the form of violence, kids being too hungry to concentrate, behavior problems, overwhelming remedial attention. I benefited by being able to understand people from different ethnic and class backgrounds. But it really did reach a point, in middle school, where it was life-threatening for me to attend school . . . And it really did reach a point where, if I didn't move, I would not have been able to take classes that would have prepared me for college. (The schools in my city nearly lost their accreditation.)
Hi David! #11
Then you are already ahead of the game. It is terribly daunting, but as you know, nothing is more important than your kids, so you'll figure it out. We had to also learn to navigate the Special Ed system because our younger son turned out to need extra services.
Best of luck.
Gaines Hubbell:
I'm not sure what is going on in Knoxville, but the magnet is a federal program that was first introduced as a method to get schools less racially segregated.
Question for the guest:
You cite these two kinds of kids/families, right?
You clearly show how they can be educated in the same system. But your kids are in a magnet school? Can these two groups be educated in the same school? What about the same classroom?
It sounds like you want a parallel system within the system for aggressive (agro) parents, though you don't want to admit it.
I have 5th grade twins, one in a public school, one in a private school for children with learning disabilities. Sure, I wish I could send them both to private school but I can't afford it as a single mother. The public school is racially mixed, it's a good public school.
BUT
The differences are major.
The report cards are in the public school focus on deficits rather than strengths and take strengths for granted. IT makes kids feel dumb.
THe report cards in the private school focus on strengths but list things to work on which makes kids feel like they are making progress.
THe parents are far more involved in the private school in their child's education. They really care about their child succeeding. At the public school they drop them off at the door and leave it to the teachers. By far the parent involvement is the biggest difference between the 2 schools.
Respect and manners in the private school are enforced by all staff. THey respect the students and the students are expected to respect each other.
At the public school, bad attitudes, disrespect of other students and teachers and bad language are allowed from the students. It would get the kids expelled at the private school. As a white middle class parent won't tolerate bad behavior from my own children, I can not understand how poorer, lower class parents can find bad attitudes, agression, and poor school performance acceptable.
Well, good segment about
"If the whole World was made up of the NPR audience."
#17,
There are lots of kinds of magnet schools. Yes, historically many of them existed to create racially heterogeneous student bodies. But that is not the only reason.
New York's exam schools (Stuynessant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech) are a different kind of magnet school, as is the LaGuardia School for the Arts.
Around the country, many districts have magnet schools for various themes or special purposes. Often, they are designed to keep the white and/or upper class families from moving away and/or sending their kids to private school.
When I went to public school PS 118 queens the classes were all white. However, they were devided into to A & B classes. Some students are beter students than others. Aptitudes and abilities are a real factor. I was a B group student but got into Brooklyn Technical H.S. ranked above Stuvesant at the time, took the vocational track, got into one of the top design colleges in the country, worked my way through without finatial help, and went on to a great professional career after a stint in the military gave me the disipline to face life more maturely.
I am torn about this issue: coming from a country were public schools get no support and are therefore really bad, I appreciate the importance of supporting public schools, but on the other hand, as the mother of above-average children, I feel public education is so geared towards the lowest common denominator that it has made my kids "school-phobic" because it is extremely boring for them. And to add to that, I am sick and tired of the "parents-as-the-enemy" attitude I get from school admins when I dare to question and ask for more stuff. As much as I feel for parents of kids with special needs, I feel my kids are getting so short-changed. The way you have to pretty much beg and fight to get anything for the above average kids is ridiculous. If I could afford it, without a doubt, I would send my kids to a private school with a program better geared for them.
I am very thankful that I did not go to public elementary school in New York City. In my parochial school I was surrounded by a "diverse" population of all abilities. However, the majority of my classmates were high achievers and were academically supportive of those who needed a little more help. From there I was accepted to one of the best high schools in the city (BTHS), where I was again surrounded by a wonderful potpourri of New Yorkers.
MOST IMPORTANT, in these two environments I never felt out of place or different for being studious. I was not teased or taunted for taking ballet and music lessons or because I enjoyed equestrian sports.
I do agree with both the guest and with Jonathan Kozol: the money goes to the schools where the middle class or above are. Parents who do claim to care about social justice should remember that they actually play an active part in whether it comes to their neighborhood schools.
Too many parents worry unnecessarily about how their children will do in an ordinary school, when it is correlated more with the parents' SES than with the school.
Also, parents who worry about college admissions should consider the importance of class rank in admissions decisions. Are you reducing your child's chances for a high class rank by moving him/her to a more competitive school? Also, colleges look at what was available to the student, and don't penalize the student for not taking AP classes if they weren't available.
I do think that NYC has the greatest variety of public schools, with the best options for children at either end of the spectrum. If the parents can put the effort into the school selection process, they can probably find a good school.
I live in Manhattan.
dear caller
blame your divorce not the school
This is the rare situation where the xenophobia of the bourgeoisie actually works to my benefit(as a married childless urbanist). Suburbanization is a mindset. In the post-Giuliani era children(and the parents who "raise" them) have surpassed tourists as the city's most vile plague. Baby carriages in bodega aisles. Baby talk and whining in restaurants. Apartment building hallways as playgrounds with no supervision have all made NYC a little less bearable.
It's best to keep suburbanites in the suburbs and if it takes the perception of inadequate schools to do it, so be it. Pack up your mini-van and move to NJ. Please.
The PARENTS, Brian. It's not even their faults, they just don't know (to meet w the teacher/ to put kids in extracurriculars/ to do homework w kids/ to put kid to bed so they aren't tired in school/ to feed them veggies/ etc etc)
Brian,
Please don't use "black and latino" as always meaning poor. There are also middle-class blacks and latinos who care very much about their children's education. (I don't have kids yet but put myself in this latter group). Thanks.
P.S. I saw you in Inwood Hill Park this weekend. I'm a fan but didn't want to bug you.
What about the Freakonomics theory - academic success is more about the motivation and expectations of the parents and child (vs. better schools)?
Your guest just mentioned immigrant parents, if I remember correctly, aren't both of her parents immigrants? Chinese and German???
I am troubled by Loh's obsession with "blond" whiteness, in terms of worrying about where she would send her kids to school.
I find it the height of self-hatred to align herself or act as if she is part of the group (White people) that would have once excluded her own "brown Asian self". I find it appalling that that she is even linking blackness, latino-ness and so called "brownness" to poor performing schools?
Millions of first generation Chinatown dwelling Asians see fit to run deli's in black neighborhoods and send their kids to public school and those kids turn out ok as well as the millions of middle/lower class black persons who now work for the MTA, the DMV or city hospitals and are otherwise non threatening professionals. How in the world did she suddenly become this precious Aryan here to brighten the dark poor performing schools?
Good parents want to give their children the best possible education. Good people want all children to have a good education. At the end of the day, as a parent, your first responsibility is to your own children. That means private school, moving out of the city, etc.
Do not send your child to a NYC public school if he or she has special needs. Our son, now nineteen, has an expressive learning disability. He attended a Manhattan public school from K-4. The large classes and shortage of qualified special ed teachers severely disadvantaged our bright child, who could not "process" when taught in a large group but, technically, was "gifted" due to his math scores, and hence ineligible for many special ed programs.
We transferred our son to a very diverse, progressive independent school, Manhattan Country School, which we and he loved but which ended at eighth grade. High school was even more expensive, so we moved.
The guest is arrogant and glib. SHe makes many unsupported and unwarranted assumptions about "white middle class kids" and their parents. The issue is not race; it's the ability of the school to handle different kinds of kids.
Also, if your kid is disadvantaged, he is more likely to take the easy outs offered in poor areas of the City, where expetations are low. I am sure that, had we not moved, our son would not have finished high school.
I work for a not-for- profit that works in the NYC public schools. The biggest difference that I see with high poverty level public schools is that many of the teachers and administration are much rougher with the way they deal with kids' behaviors, feelings and learning differences. I have heard kids threatened and belittled in ways that are completely against all current educational and psychological practices. There is no way that I would subject my children to this system that keeps poor kids down just to prove a social justice point.
Having unfriendly office school staff is not only found in urban locales. Our elementary school in Westfield, known for its school system, has office staff that also do not look up to acknowledge you when you enter...
I send 3 kids to a local public school although I can afford private education. All 3 kids are thriving and my wife and I are happy with our choice - elementary school.
The issue and angst is the immediate and near term future. With all the development going on (Carroll Gardens), we wonder where are they going to do with all the kids - we may loose a few rooms used for after school activities as a result - and what about student teacher ratio?
I also am concerned about middle school (all those hormones!). I fear that I should put the kids in private school now so that they have a place in a decent middle school later.
And yes, your guest is right - the DOE is not very customer friendly.
tony
I disagree with your concept of the city. the sprawl out there is wasteful and unsustainable. we all pay for it. the city's tax payers send millions to Albany and DC to subsidize them. we fight wars so people can drive 4 hours alone round trip in their SUV's to get to work. we need to get the middle class back to the city. we deserve better schools and infrastructure
less than human are these ideas; this is the domain of fossil fuel, which these social stereotypical insights do amount too, as well as the some total of 'white culture' if there is such a thing...
Brian read my question (#18) to the guest. (thanks, Brian!)
But she filibustered. She defended agro (aggressive) parents at length, but also continued to brag about the magnet schools for them.
So, yes, she's in favor of public education. That saves her money. But it doesn't sound like she's in favor of common schools, where all kids -- from all kinds of families -- attend together.
Why is the onus of "good public schools" always placed on the parents when public schools in this country only serve the teachers and their union. Until schools answer to parents and children rather than the other way around, children will not be served at the level of private schools.
After years spent volunteering countless hours to my daughter's school--serving the PTA, helping organize events and community tie-ins, getting referendums passed to support her school's infrastructure and I don't know what, I finally cut my losses and sent her to a private school this year. I am not a hovering, "helicopter parent", over-involved in her child's life. I'm just tired of fighting against the teachers' union and the status quo of mediocrity.
This is the only country in the world where rotten teachers earn above $100,000 a year as reward for poor performance.
Henry #37
I think your kids will be fine if you stay involved which I'm sure you will. I have one kid in high school and the other is in 6th grade. Even when they are in middle school they still are your kids and you still know them very well. The problem, I think, is that the schools and parents often drop the ball on middle schoolers. They are actually more vulnerable and needy than they were in elementary school. It helps me to keep that in mind. The DOE is horrible, but if you really do your homework and check the middle schools carefully you can find a good match.
God bless Ms. Loh for being upfront about this issue. I have met so many people, ranging from those who consider themselves liberal and left-leaning to former 60s radicals, who undergo a complete conversion when it comes to sending their kids to public schools. They see it as providing basic safety and protection for their children as well as ensuring their future success in life. Forget about any other political considerations: black/hispanic/poor=physical danger/poor education/tainted future.
I was a raised in a middle class home in the Bronx and attended all local public schools through high school. I became a public interest lawyer. When I had children we were living in Manhattan. I sent my oldest son to our zoned school which is an excellent school with good ratings (Manhattan New School, P.S. 290) Why then are we now living in one of the "rivertowns" north of the city? My son, who is NOT special ed, does need services (specifically occupational therapy). The level of disability at which a child in the NYC public schools can receive services is much higher than the level at which a child in a suburban public school will receive services. He did not qualify for servicesin NYC (and the services available were not particularly good if he had qualified). So here we are. We could not afford private school, and privately providing services to our son (even with discounts by my insurance company) was expensive and time-consuming. Now he gets the support he needs with the mechanics of writing and executive organizational skills during the school day and at a caring and highly professional level. After school he can have fun, not shlep to the o.t. When he graduates high school we move back to the city.....with our younger children in tow because they don't need these services.
I am a college professor at a private art school. This is a very white, very privileged population. A good portion of these students went to either private schools or magnate schools when they were in primary and secondary school. I can say from direct experience, that if you think this population is protected from drugs and other bad choices, you are sadly mistaken.
In fact, the more privileged the student, I and my colleagues often find them less prepared for the rigors of college. My department is one of the most demanding ones in the school, and it is the most diverse. My department, and the other top, rigorous areas in the school attract and keep the smartest, most serious students, and many come from these public schools that Ms Loh supports. This group is not only bright, they are dedicated and mature.
When a parent looks at a primary and secondary school that will prepare their child for the future, I urge you to add maturity to the list. Once you factor in this, Ms Loh's proposition becomes very important.
Regarding "civic duty" - Parents need to make a choice based on their best assessments and realistic commmittment to what school is chosen. Public schools vary from community to community (why there is still so much lying by parents to send a child to their non-catchment school). How active a parent can be with a public school can make an enormous difference. YES - the dicersity is hugely important for children and parents - in education, in life. However, in the public school system the classes are so very overcrowded and the range of student ability so vast that the teachers - whether mediocre or grand - are stretched in their ability to teach well to all, often meeting the needs of the more needy. There is sooooo much to be said on all of the linked issues inside of public school education.......The entire system needs to be overhauled and it's perceptions and constructs that must be redeveloped in order to serve the children best in their education.
This issue touches on the fundamental cleavage between the upper middle class latte-liberal Obama set & the less economically priveleged working & lower middle class Clinton cadres who live in different worlds largely the consequence of the different choices available to them. The latte liberals send their kids to sheltered private schools & thus don't have to confront the harsh realities of violence & educational mediocrity which dooms many working class children to follow in their parent's footsteps into undereducated work & career paths. The latte liberals have spent the last 40+ years advocating public policies which they themselves know better than to buy into in their own lives.
I was brought up in a neighborhood that included two housing-project complexes. I lived in a one-family house. My school was prodominatly attended by children who, once they left school, were not encouraged to work on their school work. The average performance of the student body was brought down by the lack of parental attention, the distraction of a crime-dominated society, and an over-arching "poo-pooing" of the scholastic achievement.
@ James: You post doesn't make sense. I don't see any large differences between Clinton & Obama on these issues. And you'll no doubt find a lot of latte liberals (myself included) escaped undereducated work & career paths by getting through the public school system.
Brian,
I really have trouble with the way Sandra Tsing Loh tries to reassure parents about neigborhood schools. Children do not just learn by osmosis. They need to be in rigorous and challenging programs. Many parents understand that knowledge is power and that is why they do all they can to make sure their children go to the best possible school. The answer is not to just let your kid go to any school. The answer is to become a force behind the idea that every public school in the nation should be a desireable school where every child has an equal oppportunity to learn and achieve. This approach requires that parents act locally by becoming very involved in their neghborhood schools. It also means becoming involved in county, state and national politicis, voting for leaders who care about all children and major school reform.
Ms. Tsing Loh also assumes that every child has the same capacity to learn as his or her parents. No so. Children with special needs and learning disabilties (about 15% of the population) are far less likely to learn by the osmosis method. For these students, attending a school that can provide the right mix of services and accommodations is key, and that school is not always the one around the corner. Let's not forget them.
Thank you for posting my comments.
I wasn't actually talking about Obama & Clinton themselves, but merely alluding to the rather different demographics which they seem to appeal to. On many policy issues the candidates themselves are not very dissimiliar, yet their respective demographic support does divide on these socio-economic fault lines, which the current issue also reveals.
james
if the "latte liberals ...have spent the last 40+ years advocating public policies"
how have the "working & lower middle class Clinton cadres" helped the general direction of the nation. are you saying the latte liberals have their hearts in the right place and working class have done little to save our sinking nation from the excesses of a consumption based economy ?
One important policy difference between Obama and Clinton is that Obama favors merit pay for individualteachers. Clinton favors merit pay for the individual schools.
James:
I am an Obama-supporting, "latte liberal." I grew up in Carroll Gardens before it was gentrified -- i.e., when it was a working- class, Italian neighborhood. I attended public schools through college -- Brooklyn College -- and have both a Ph.D. and a law degree from Columbia University. I drink latte because I like latte, and I support Obama because, in fact, he is from a background (other than the single parent) similar to my own: he made it out of a work-class background because he was smart, worked hard, and had a devoted, supportive family.
As noted in my post above, I set my latte aside and took my son out of public school because he was failing due to a learning disability, and the school was failing to provide the specialized education that he required. I would not disadvantage my child to prove a political point or please a critic. Moreover, when private school became too much of a financial burden, we moved. The suburban high school school that my son attended -- in Chappaqua, Hillary's new "hometown" -- provided many skilled teachers and free services that, with our support and his hard work, helped our son to graduate. He is now choosing a college.
I believe that Obama would understand where we were coming from, lattes and all, because he came from a simlilar place, albeit as a mixed-race person rather than a white ethnic. You need to stop sterotyping.
I am happy for this discussion as a pregnant woman who is already worrying about the education of my child and the financial obligations that requires. Both my husband and I were raised in the city and we both attended private schools. (attended 1&K at PS 3)
We also both are dyslexic.
Without private schools neither one of us would have recived the high quality education we did.
I believe in equal education for people of all financial backgrounds but I do believe I have a healthy fear of NYC public schools.
That being said, due to the comments I will consider public schools and attemt to do my "research" to find the right ones. This is the urban dream!
#55--macha. I know how you feel, in some ways. I began thinking / worrying about my daughter's education while she was still in vitro. I have some friends who laugh at me when I tell them I've already starting looking into her schools, just because she's just eight months old.
I can think of few more important decisions a parent will make for his/her child.
The 'latte-libs' are the very embodiment of 'over-comsumption' - spending $4,00 for a $.50 cuppa Joe. It's why their 401Ks are empty, their credit card balances over the top & their wastelines over the line ;)
And furthermore..some of my best friends are 'latte-libs'.
James - lol!
@ Tony:
I feel pity for people like Tony who believe that the urban space is a playground of consumerism for himself and other yuppies.
I recently moved from Williamsburg, the irony of being that I was a pioneering 20-something single urbanite 12 years ago when I moved there. I have just as much right to be in a bodega aisle with a stroller as anyone else--I have been here longer to boot!
When Tony is old and grey, the next generation of young New Yorkers will be here reinvigorating and reinveting the city as they always have.
James:
Sorry to puncture your bubble, but I get my lattes for free -- my son works as a barista for minimum wage.
You're not funny, guy.
james,
the same could be said of the whole US working-middle class. losing their homes in the sprawl. i hope some come back to their local cities. recycle their cars, save on gas. NYC's carbon footprint is 1/4 of the national average. they could help save the world instead of adding to the world's problems
On suburban sprawl: many folks wanna get out of congested, crowded, noisy, dirty cities 'cause they want a place to live in peace & quiet, with decent schools, less crime & without neighbors on top, beneathe & to either side of them livin' high-volume lives without even minimal consideration for others in their building/'hood. If urban life were made more appealing by the governing liberal elites who run our cities many people wouldn't choose to flee. Fix the quality of life in urban hell-holes & the lots of sprawl would reverse on it's own. In fact, where that is happening, the problem is not flight from but rush into the cities (in the form of 'gentrification'). Libs have it in their power to reduce sub-sprawl by makin' the cities they control more livable.
This thread is closed.
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