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Guests, including: Patricia Williams, professor of law at Columbia University, writes the Mad Law Professor column for The Nation magazine, Eugene O'Donnell, professor of law and police science at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, WNYC’s Arun Venugopal and Cindy Rodriguez, Richard Aborn, president of the Citizens Crime Commission, a group that monitors, the police civil rights attorney Ronald Kuby, Errol Louis, columnist for the Daily News, New York Times reporter Michael Wilson, and Queens City Council Member Leroy G. Comrie, Jr. (D- 27), react to and offer analysis of the verdicts in the trial of the police officers charged in the shooting death of Sean Bell.
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Comments
Get over it people. These cops were reckless, but not murderers. Sean Bell and friends put themselves in a dangerous situation and then acted inappropriately.
Ms Williams,
The cops weren't just scared. Sean Bell and co tried to run a cop over. Why do we forget this?
That verdict was as criminal as the actions of the police....
[[BL Moderator Writes: Comment Removed for violating wnyc posting policies. Please keep your comments civil.]]
"Reckless but not murderers" is not what I want wearing a uniform, wearing a gun, and walking around MY city. If they're acquitted by the law, there's nothing I can do about it. But I do NOT want ANY of these policemen back on the force in any way, shape or form. Has their future as policemen been addressed? I'd like to know.
I would rather be listening to the BBC right now. We have all day to talk about this local news, and no doubt WNYC will talk about it all day. I am more interested in the global news and the mess we've made there. I don't care to listen to more news made by New Yorkers about themselves and their careless and callous regard for human life. That is not news! That is to be expected around here. What is really important is what is happening in Syria, Israel, North Korea today!
Thank goodness for people like Professor O'Donnell who seems to understand the law rather than react to the prevailing political climate.
Sorry, if a cop pulls a gun at you, you put your hands up, you don't try to run them over.
Chris,
Being reckless with lethal force IS a crime. And you're right. It's not murder. It's manslaughter.
This is a travesty, and only serves to perpetuate the historical animosity between the police and the African-American community. It's clearly a slap in the face, and reconfirms the belief that a "black life" is of no real value in the US legal system. "Liberty and Justice for all" ?
Yes, lets get over it thier is no hope between the White criminal justice system and people of color. It is Open season on black people!!!
We need to hold these cops accountable for their reckless actions. Unfortunately the only way to do this is to let our City Council reps., State government reps., and Fed gov. reps. know that this verdict is clearly reckless.
Unfortunately, nothing has changed......
This is verdict is a travesty--policemen are trained to deal with people in difficult situations without killing them, aren't they? I agree with "a woman" that I wouldn't want these policemen to stay on the force.
This is a travesty of justice.
And the opinion that the cops were merely "reckless" is horrible. Mistakes are not created equal, Chris.
If as a musician, I hit a wrong chord, nobody gets killed. Same thing when the kid at the cash register hits a 5 instead of a 4.
Cops carry guns. They have the authority to use those guns. They have the authority to arrest people, to detain citizens, to use brutal force against citizens.
Cops are not entitled to be reckless. And we, as the tax-paying citizenry of this state should not allow them the luxury of getting away with killing us.
Bell is a thug and ran with thugs. Those cops NEVER committed a crime. This is justice and a great result. We should appreciate Judge Cooperman's independence in the face of a political witch hunt against those cops. Now stay off the subway.
Brian, how DARE your guest (Mr. O'Donnell?) say, “Well, this should never happen again.” Um, isn’t that what the apologists say EVERY TIME? If the police keep getting off, IT’S GOING TO KEEP ON HAPPENING!!!!
I guess it’s still open season on black men. It's a very hard notion for me to accept, as I have a black husband and 6-month-old son. Will we still be saying, "I hope this never happens again" when my son is eighteen? The more things change the more they stay the same.
Put on the BBC...
Professor O'Donnell's position seems to be that if police officers enter a scene they suspect to be dangerous, the proper course of action is to shoot everything that moves and sort out the details later.
Plenty of cops have been able to stop a dangerous man WITH A REAL GUN without having to blow him away. I certainly think it's possible to stop people who don't have guns at all.
Maybe black guys shouldn't confront police with guns, and when they're told to freeze, maybe they should freeze. Maybe they shouldn't lie on the stand where judges see them for liars.
Do you know how many times I've seen it on the street that they try to arrest a black guy and the family goes nuts on the sidewalk? Then they arrest everyone. Then they call the cops pigs for that. You're not supposed to resist.
Chris...thats the whole debate DID they identify themselves as police....I raised this a while back on this message board...when the Police heard one of the Sean bell party say "get my gun" WHY didn't they do something THEN...and NOT wait till they were penned up in a parked car....
It amazes me the level of callousness that white people have for people of color, People of color are not seen as human beings.
The standard that allows a scared cop to do anything is unjustifiable. A New York neighborhood is not a Vietnamese rice paddy, but in either case using fear to turn the area into a free-fire zone is a crime.
It's reasonable to acquit the officers on the assault charges, but Detective Oliver should have been convicted of manslaughter, and the reckless endangerment charges--based on forensic evidence and harm to the surrounding neighborhood--could never have been reasonably dismissed.
Today's soundtrack: KRS-One, "Never Hadda Gun."
Mr Lynch (?): "There are no winners, there are no losers."
Um, At the very least a life was lost. Rodney King's arrestors should have been foresightful enough to just unload 51 rounds, apparently.
Every so many years we go through the death and murder by police of an African American or Hispanic male in a hail of police gunfire. The police charged are acquitted and we wait for another like accident. Nothing changes.
It is unfortunate that a city that has a near majority of people of color cannot elect a mayor that is committed to cleaning up the NYPD’s culture of racism, corruption and apartheid.
C'mon Brian, no more apologist prattle about how the cops have to "live with having killed 3 men" for the rest of their lives. Those men are dead, and the cops went free. There is no justice today.
An unarmed white man has never been struck down like this by police. A white man has never been put to death for killing a black man. If you hear the story, 'man shot numerous times by police the biggest probability is that the victim was black'. No white person will deny it. If cops are afraid of black people in general, and are not concerned when black people die, then they are not fit for the job. Not everyone can be a cop. If you look at all of the 'dirty cops' then you realize there are many unfit cops, so how is it that no cop who has murdered a person in this way could be 'unfit'? Anyone who defends these cops is generally white. Racism is so predictable these days its ridiculous. It's like paint by numbers. That's why there is so little cooperation w/cops in minority communities - call the cop on your neighbor and they could end up dead. I hope the feds get involved b/c NY justice is a joke. Again, racism is so completely predictable - statistically it skews the law so that the benefit of the doubt is almost never given to Blacks. Your guest Prof Eugene - should not feed chicken poop on air - calling it 'law' and expect people to taste chicken salad.
Jim is correct Bell, Guzman and Benefield were thugs and criminals...at least one of whom tried to run over a police officer. That said the cops were undisciplined.
When you cannot trust the people who are 'supposed' to protect you, when you see evidence, over and over again of them abusing their power, targeting people of color, acting without care and regard for the life of people who look like you, then of course resistance is seen as necessary! try to understand this people.
Sorry, I'm not callous, I'm just really tired of the same old complaints by people that don't have the facts.
How many of you even know that THE FIRST COP TO PULL THE TRIGGER WAS BLACK???? I doubt he has no regard for people of color.
"The self-defense justification of deadly force requires an objectively reasonable belief that an imminent threat exists."
These cops believed a threat existed.
a cop is a cop, regardless of skin color, when they put on that uniform, they're all blue. the corruption of power erases all color lines. people have the facts, chris, and you know what we're tired of- seeing our brothers getting killed and the murderers getting away scot free time and time again! that's what we're tired of.
But Chris, those cops were also involved in creating the dangerous situation when they didn't stop them WHEN THEY HEARD THE THREAT. They allowed the situation to spiral dangerously out of control, waited until the possibility of being surprised with a gun was at its greatest, and then unloaded their guns on this car. And not only did they unload their guns, one of them REloaded his gun and continued firing...
Should they have been found guilty on all charges? Probably not. The highest count was a stretch. But were they guilty of some of those other charges or a lesser charge of reckless endangerment? You better believe it.
"If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgement and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher then they."
Ecclesiates 5:8
Should we feel sorry for officers lost in WTC, when this happens?
What most people don't understand is that these ocurrances are so prevalent for the reason that although the city is inhabited by a majority of people of color, they constantly removed from any influence of power, Starting with the Mayor with and any political power, and the Economical power in white people hands the Academic institutions and the media...NYC has become a apartheid city were the majority in disenfranchised and the white minority hold all the power!
What is a thug? Can a white person be a thug? If so, describe what you mean. If Blacks go to jail twice as much for the same crimes as whites, then clearly the justice system sees 'thugs' as Blacks.
Chris,
Black cops are not immune to being co-opted to the prevailing mentality of white male dominated police culture. They can internalize the belief that black = evil. Self-loathing exists in all communities. That point is irrelevant.
Chris...I am a white man and this was not a racial thing it was a police brutality thing....
Everything I heard from this trial was that these cops were out of control.
This is a travesty. I'd be surprised if riots don't happen.
They didn't stop them at the time they made the threat because they waited til they had back up. Get your facts straight people.
Sure, reckless endangerment would be a reasonable conviction, probably for the guy who fired first (who happened to be black). ANYONE in that position would start firing once one of their partners started.
Ron Kuby consistently ignores the Constitution when it comes to his adversary. You have a right to a trial by jury not the obligation to have one. This is the very kind of case in which you don't want an OJ jury.
black men have a reasonable doubt to get shot by police based on the instances where this has happened?
That's a numbers game, I doubt those w that assertion want to play the numbers game.
Sorry Joe, not a racial thing? If you were Black, you would not say that. Can any white person stand up and say that this is racial or are you still all in denial?
Would love to see a few protests about black on black crime.
They do take place every so often don't they?
These cops assumed these guys were criminals because they black. That's the problem.
But the question you have to ask yourselves is: If it had been three white men, would this have ever happened? Would the cops have simply started shooting? Or would they have drawn their guns and given them a chance to surrender?
Just try to visualize this scene. And imagine that it's three rather shady white men at that. You don't need to picture them like three fine, upstanding young white men. Give them some priors. Give them some tattoos. Have them drunk. Stick a Confederate flag bumper sticker on their back bumper.
Do you see one corpse and two hospitalized men at the end of that scenario? Can you reasonably argue that this man would be just as dead if he were white?
The race card does not work in this case. The cops were white, black, and hispanic.
I agree Charlie, The City is a Apartheid city, were the majority that compose the city population are people of color and all the power is in the hands of the white minority!!!
i'm appalled at this verdict. are police officers held to a higher or a lower standard than an ordinary person? just imagine if instead of police officers the shooters were lawfully armed, ordinary citizens. would any judge agree that it was reasonable for such citizens, in self defense to release a hail of 50 bullets, kill an unarmed man, injure 2 others, and shoot bullets into a train station where innocent bystanders could be hit? i think not. police should be held to a higher standard , not a lower one. and the military standard of overwhelming force, which seems to be what's in place in nyc, is a totally inappropriate one to be applied.
The verdicts of this case make me worry even more about the heavily armed police now patrolling the close quarters of the subways.
The people of Queens are just as racist as the cops. When you see white cops arrest your black neighbors, of course you will learn to fear cops. Likewise, when cops see most violent crime is commited by young black men (sorry this is a fact), they learn to fear black men. Even black cops have admitted to racial profiling. It may not be right, but it's human nature to act on past experience.
I agree with the 1st post by Chris. It seems that the cops were reckless, so the judge could have found them guilty of manslaughter.
Chris...back up?...couldn't the police there have contained them once they got into the vehicle?...couldn't they have pinned them in AND not put themselves in harms way (it did come up in the trial that there were places they could've been protected from any shots that would have been fired)...there was plenty of ways they could've defused the situation WITHOUT firing that many shots...c'mon
JJ-
The judge was white. Race does matter here.
A total and utter travesty of justice. NWA says it best "*^%$ the police."
The verdict aside, I object to the expectation )and in the case of certian media, the hope) that all the black people are going to riot. If the verdict were to have gone the other way, would everybody be worrying about all the white people rioting?
Outrageous, forget race.. it's about the law.
How not to become estranged from it when 3 cops can kill an unharmed guy and receive no punishment. One can list all of the technicalities in the world but won't be able to conceal the basic fact: 3 cops killed an unharmed person.
Dawn---I'm saying for me the fact that the cops were not all white makes it a police brutality case for me...but I do totally agree the police and the justice system screws people of color...did not wanna sound like I was saying it was not racial at all...
No one seems to be talking about the fact that the Defendants claim that they heard someone say "Go get my gun"- probably the one single thing that a judge would use to justify danger the policemen claimed they were in. The fact is, as other witnesses said- no one said that, and the policemen "hearing" that, makes for a fabulous cover. Very sad.
the race card almost always applies - that's why its called racism. All of the people who say there is no 'race issue' can rest assured that they will never be shot down in a hail of bullets. Doesn't it feel good to be white? You can be favored by justice and the government and then point your fingers and tell everyone else whether race is an issue in their lives. Must feel just great to be white.
# 42
I'm a white person and I'll say it's definetely a race thing. Cops oppress minorities and serves the elites, mostly whites.
It's also a class thing and in NYC, that means a race thing.
I think that it is disgraceful that the officers were acquitted on all counts. Even if justification could be found for Officer Isnora approaching and then shooting at Sean Bell's car, what about the officer who unloaded TWO clips - over 50 shots - into the car? What about the fact that the officers never stopped their fire to assess if anyone from the car was shooting back at them? Why are they not held responsible for that?
We need to eliminate all white people from the force and cleanse and retrain all remainning the police and justice system from the White cultural racism...It needs to be done NOW!!!!!!!!
#8
Have you ever had someone pull a gun on you? How the hell did they know it was a cop? cause they yelled it whiole running at them with guns? what would you do if four thugs in jeans were running at you with guns, don't you think that you'd try to get the hell out of there?
CHECK YOUR OWN FACTS! Blacks go to prison for longer, harsher sentences than whites who commit the SAME CRIME. And this country puts more people behind bars than any country in the world. This is statistics, this is facts. I hope that Chris does not have a job in the public sector or in any capacity over people's lives.
Nicole,
You've taken too many psych classes. It's normal human behaviour to profile people based on your experience, especially when you are in a dangerous environment.
It is the media who is rioting!
Let’s face it Chris, you are a bigot.
Police deadly encounters always stir deep emotions. For minority communities they often feel that the encounter would not have occured if the persons were caucasian. Racebaitors Inc, and their attorney's market this for their own sincere but erroneous beliefs that police are inherently eviel and opressors of the people. Most NYPD officers today are from diverse backgrounds we try to serve and protect but we are humans and make mistakes. If a physican makes a mistake and a person dies its called negligence, if a police officer makes a mistate it is called reckless criminal behavior. Here the Judge saw negligence, not criminality.
Buzz-
What are you talking about? If the verdict had gone the other way, justice would have been served. There would have been no incentive for anyone to riot.
Do you want these police officers undercover in your neighborhood? Do you want to see the law enforced in your neighborhood in the same way as it was in this neighborhood? Are you hopeful that the police will apply the same standards to your non-black neighbors as they did in this case in the interest of a color blind enforcement of the law?
This is so frustrating. I feel, sick that in my home county of queens, police can unload rounds from their weapons in an excessive way and not be found guilty on some level of negligence and endangerment. It is disgusting failure of the justice system. The level of negligence allowed of law enforcement agents upon the citizens of this city is frightening.
Yes Dawn, I'm aware that blacks are mistreated by judges and juries. But you have to ask yourself why. Do asians get such a raw deal in the courts? Probably not, because they have been shown to commit fewer crimes. Racism is real, and it cuts both ways. I've have been mistreated more by black people than I have mistreated them. But I don't hold it against them because I know what they've been through.
Nevertheless, this case is more about stupid cops than racism.
Although these incidents continue occur their has been a drop of these kind of incidents have dropped over their is a "Correlation" between the increased diversification in the police force and drop of these incidents...The more the force continues to reflect the people of this city and reduce Caucasian officers the less likely the incidents will continue in the future.
This verdict is a horror- sending the worst kind of message to civilians AND police officers. These unidentified undercover policemen who "heard" there was a gun, should be held to an even HIGHER standard- not just allow them an "they're incompetent- but not murderers" defense. The fact that they are deemed incompetent MEANS they are murderers. Changing their testamony repeatedly apparently means to the judge that they are credible. insane. Also, I guess you don't even need a gun anymore to justify anything- just the RUMOR of a gun is plenty of justification.
Dear Don the Cop,
Has a white unarmed man ever been murdered in a hail of bullets - a hail? No? Why not?
Are you also going to tell me that chicken poop is the same as chicken salad-because that's what it sounds like. It is a fact that the hospital mortality rate for Blacks is greater than whites. For Black women giving birth they are 4 times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. How does that make me feel at 81/2 months - if I die, well - oops? oh well - sh** happens? It happens for me four times more if I'm black.
I am disgusted, outraged and extremely saddened by this morning's verdict.
There is no excuse for excessive force.
My heart goes out to the Bell family, his friends and his widowed fiancee.
The victims were trying to get away because an 'undercover' cop was going after them with a car - They happened to hit a police car and an officer getting in the way - Wouldn't you over react if you had some thugs (undercover cops) coming at you with guns? -
This is a result of poor training, incompetence and lack of accountability in the police dept and the politicians who run this city.
These cops should have been convicted of reckless endagerement and the management of the NYPD. - Mayor Bloomberg has failed to reform the Dept - (1) Accountability (2) Higher Pay (3) better training (4) removal of officers who join for the power trip (5) Residency requirement
Chris come out of the closet and admit that you’re a racist.
I agree with this caller we live in a "Apartheid" city!
Again... again and again and again ...
fifty shots!
They were acquitted because those accussed of manslaughter should have been accused of reckless endangerment. A judge won't convict you of a crime that you are not being prosecuted for. Prosecuters always go too far...
#72
That is a very conscending remark to make, Chris. And, frankly, the reason why the black community is shown to have more violence is because of economic disparity caused by racism. But being rich doesn't matter, either, since well-off black men still get harassed when they are being law abiding.
I'm a bit amazed that they didn't get lesser charges at least, guess the civil cases will have quite different outcomes.
Isn't a civil case double jeopardy?
In all other kinds of situations (drunk driving, buying stolen merchandise, medical malpractice), I would argue, "carelessness and incompetence" IS criminal, no? And, I would argue, cops are more accountable, in terms of criminality, for competence than other kinds of public figures. Incompetence IS criminal when you are trained to and willfully take responsibility for enforcing the law. It simply is; and if the law doesn't enforce that basic truth, then future cops won't take their responsibility for what it is. Responsibility has to mean accountability; otherwise it's meaningless.
Chris,
No one has the right to mistreat you & you should serve the 'tude right back to them regardless of color. But if I deserve to be discriminated against because people think blacks commit the most crimes- Should I pay the same taxes as everyone and I can't live where I want? I can't get the same healthcare as others? My brother can be pulled over and shot to death? Black people do not commit the most crimes - if you think so, what is your source? The media wants to keep you afraid of blacks. You know who you should be afraid of? the white collar criminal who just drained your pension and foreclosed your house.
I am just appalled at the racist comments being posted here - This specific case was not racist per say - but it is a clear example of police abuse and incompetence on the part of our politicians and Police dept which we pay taxes for and should be accountable.
What minorities complain about is that police officers would not have acted with this recklessness at an upper class white club that is involved in prostituion and drug dealing. Police officers who are undercover should not have done what these officers did
When it was first announced that the case would be decided by a judge and not a jury, I had a feeling that the verdict would lean towards the officers. To me, judges tend to lean towards the interests of law enforcement officials; juries tend to learn towards the victims. I seriously pray that the community will not erupt in violence over the verdict, but unfortunately, not everyone will be able to exhibit self control. Then again, in light of what could be perceived as the latest assault on African-Americans by police, it wouldn't be surprising.
This lady, Janice Adams is ridiculous!! State sponsored terrorism? They were TRIED in a court of law, not given awards or medals. Being a cop is tough and these guys probably will stop beings cops very soon.
Lets not fool ourselves,this is a horrible situation. It would have been worse if they were convicted.
Per Brian's ignorant comment about sending defendants to prison for "subjective judgment" the law requires juries to make those exact subjective judgments.
The comment about not having malicious intent ignores the fact that there is "reckless disregard for human life" murder or manslaughter
This is not a case of "state sponsored terrorism" as one of your guests suggested rather incompetent cops (two of whom are black) tangling with a bunch of petty criminals. I've given up on WNYC...I guess I can't take Ron Kuby this early in the day...adios.
Kerissa,
It may be conscending, but that doesn't make it less true. And you're right, the black community has more crime because of economic disparity. I think the legacy of slavery is just as responsible for the economic disparity as is racism today. But it doesn't matter why there's more crime, the point is there is more crime there and that's why cops are afraid of the people that live there. Even the black cops are, I've talked to them.
Civil cases are not double jeopardy. Double jeopardy applies to criminal cases. They can't be retried on criminal charges obviously, but acquittal does not exempt them from law suits.
does anyone one think if the starting pay is 25k you're not going to get the sharpest bulbs?
this isn't going to be the last time this happens
the city should look into police procedures. where is the oversight. does ray kelly have a blank check?
website: peoplesjustice.org
JUSTICE FOR SEAN BELL AND ALL VICTIMS OF POLICE VIOLENCE!!
COME OUT APRIL 25th THE DAY OF THE VERDICT!!
In Nov. 2006, Sean Bell was murdered by the NYPD in a hail of 50 bullets. His friends - Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman - seriously injured. 3 of the officers involved were acquitted of ALL charges! Outraged? We are.
PEOPLES JUSTICE for Community Control and Police Accountability is calling for a rally and community speak-out in front of the Queens DA's office ON THIS DAY.
COME OUT: APRIL 25th at 5:30 pm @ the Queens DA's Office
125-01 Queens Blvd. (between Hoover Ave & 82nd Ave.)
E or F train to Union Turnpike
[[BL Show Moderator: comment removed. against wnyc posting policies]]
The issue is that murdering a black person is a lesser crime in this country. A judge should throw the book at these cops as if the victim was white - or as if justice is blind. Then there WOULD be a different verdict. A white man has never been put to death for killing a black man in this country - Why? because his life is more important - and black lives do not matter - no matter who the killer is.
Come on Chris are you or are not a bigot and a racist?
Get out of that closet, you’ll feel better.
Wait I'm confused: do cops have to abide by the same rules as the rest of us? Or do they get to live by 'cop' rules (can carry a gun, use force etc) most of the time but then live by 'normal people' rules when they mess up ("I was scared, I was confused etc) yet then live by the 'cop' rules again when they are under trial?
Brian, incompetence IS punishable by jail time when it results in death, at least in my moral view. It is a detterent to prevent others from doing so, the city paying out in a civil suit does NOT act as a deterent to the other officers. It's a carte blanche, to allow incompetence to continue.
Dawn,
I never said anyone deserve to be discriminated against. In any case here are the facts about race and murder.
In 2005, 3.5 out of 100,000 whites committed murder and 26.5 out of 100,000 blacks committed murder. So, it seems blacks are about 8 times more likely to kill someone. This difference went down over the last 2 decades as the crack epidemic decreased. If the economic disparity decreaed then it would drop even more, I'm sure.
This thread is closed.
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