On Demand
Why Can't We Talk About Islam?
Wednesday, March 19, 2008
Eboo Patel, executive director of the Interfaith Youth Core, discusses his autobiography Acts of Faith: The Story of an American Muslim, the Struggle for the Soul of a Generation (Beacon, 2007). We also get his thoughts on the role religion is playing in the Presidential campaign, and his reaction to Barack Obama's speech yesterday on race and the Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
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Tell me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are.Jeremiah Wright and Tony Rezko says a lot about Obama's judgment and character.long term relationships with both by choice is an indication of a man who's words doesn't match his actions. That is indeed sad for a person running largely on words alone.
I think the question is, "Why can't we talk about Israeli policy in this country?"
Islam will only be associated with Jihad because the moderate Muslim STAYS SILENT.
When the moderates stand-up and silence the radicals then progress will be made.
Otherwise what else are people supposed to think?
More have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews - all have been slaughtered because of their beliefs and have slaughtered in the name of their belief. Doesn't your guest think it's time to abandon the god model?
I never read the Koran, but is it true that extremists like OBL are considered "true" Muslims because they faithfully uphold the book?
Lack of contrition, responsibility, etc. toward fellow muslims who are dangerous... After 9/11 I was shocked at this phenom.
I realize it takes some bravery for american muslims to criticize violent muslims who commit acts of terror but i think most americans feel this minimum sense of obligation as americans with ties and opinions about their "other" identity.
As far as Obama -- if his father figure is a jew hater and one who says "gd damn america" i DON"T NEED to know more. Don't want to. In terms of "understanding" his church. THat is enough for me!
I'd totally lose respect for Obama if he'd denounced Reverend Wright. Why? Because it would tell me that he is a man willing to throw everything and everyone he holds dear under the bus in order to win the nomination.
What a juvenile response, "the first question is a negative" Muslims are killing each other and Christians, Jews, Hindus and Budists around the world IN THE NAME OF THEIR RELIGION, and that isn't a legitimate first question. You prevaricating fool!
I think the question is why can't we talk about Islam without some insidious anti-Semite bringing up the canard about "why can't we talk about Israel?"
There is more talk about tiny little Israel in the media and among politicans than virtually any of the other 192 countries in the world inicluding such major human rights violators as Sudan, Libya and Syria...
Obamamama: Did you even listen to one word he said in his speech? Why is it so hard for people such as yourself to take a look at the world from any other perspective besides your own? Obama clearly addressed what other things there were about Wright and his church that has kept him in that community for so long. Listen to the speech again and try opening your ears. If you were only judged by your worst moments, what would people think of you? Words alone? I guess his legislative exprience, civil rights lawyer experience, ability to move millions, and life experience counts for nothing. I'm afraid this country will never be ready for true change and progression.
Isn't it interesting how most of the people who dismiss Obama for running "just on words", "he only has words", "empty words", "pretty speech but no substance"....all these people are really taking the WORDS of Rev. Wright pretty seriously! Those select, sound-byted, out-of-context words...those words are powerful and consequential but what Obama says, feh, blow that off, that's meaningless.
Uh, Sally, we do.
And would much more actively if Israelis lobbed 400 rockets a week blindly into Arab civilian neighborhoods solely to create fear -- which they would do for about 1 hour before the Jewish, Christian and Arab citizens of the country of Israel and jews worldwide physically halted the Israeli army.
I prefer going to primary sources for information, but my understanding is that there is no sanctioned English translation of the Koran. Is this incorrect - is there a translation Islam calls accurate? If not, couldn't this be a cause of the confusion Westerners have about Islam?
We had a fragile truce with Obama. If he didn't remind us he was mixed-race, we would pretend we wouldn't take his race into account when he ran for President. The right recognized the fragility of that truce.
To an objective (or at least attempting to be) outsider, Islam clearly has a lot of wisdom and culture to offer people who are not famililar with it. I believe americans interest in the positive elements of Islam is growing and rightfuly so. These facts do not address the issue that a small group of people who claim to be a part of the faith have sworn to destroy the US. I think many outsiders feel that moderate muslims are the best "bridge" to solve the "radical" muslim problem as many frightened americans see it.
The thing that always concern me about these inter-faith movements is that 1) They tend to only focus on the religions of Abraham. 2) There's no inclusion of those without a faith. There's a part of me that feels like if Christians, Jews, and Muslims work out their differences, the rest of us are up the creek.
There is no one to sanction. Islam is a decentralized faith.
Three Questions:
1) Can religion be reduced to a set of values without any reference to the deity?
2) What does the Quran and the Muslim tradition say about Moses? Jesus?
3) Can there be a common understanding of who God is and how God acts within history and among human beings?
You cannot equate the prejudices people have about Islam with Obama financially and personally supporting a man who preaches hate from his pulpit. I accept that people have anger about the injustices that have and continue to occur but that does not excuse preaching hate.
I do not want a president who cannot stand up to people who preach hate in his own church.
As a practicing Catholic, I can relate to the fact that what makes news and what those who are not RC know are the bad things. And they are very bad, no denying that. However, the religion is more than its bad side.
Having said that, I'm not sure that I expect the rest of the world to educate themselves about Catholicism as Mr. Patel seems to expect the rest of us to educate ourselves about Islam. What's their impetus to do so?
Why does Mr. Patel personify religion? It seems more accurate to illustrate that PEOPLE take action and exhibit kindness, love, and even terror. Religion is static and can not exhibit these qualities.
If only the people who had power in Islam, i.e. the leaders/dictators of the 56 countries who are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) were more like Ido Patel.
Many of these countries are led by tyrants who brutally opress their minorities are not really interested in interfaith anything - more interested in global Islamist domination - which given $110 oil and the creeping Sharia - is actually becomeing the reality.
this isn't alarmism or anti-Islam sentiments -- just facing the stark reality of the 21st century...
When Patel says that when our first brush with a belief system is negative, we should be inspired to seek out more information about that system, my first thought is this: But I did not seek out any information when I was confronted or provided with the negative information. It CAME to me. I would therefore expect any non-negative information to similarly come to me (such as his presence on Brian's show). Why should I be required to actively research the belief system? Is this again a matter of media influence? Or, just another example of how good news is really not news?
Interesting point, Paulo.
It's so sad that otherwise intelligent people still are immersed in the "teachings" of mostly illiterate Bronze Age nomads. Your guest is correct in that too few Americans know much about modern Islam...they should certainly educate themselves on the teachings of people like Sayyid Qutb and Hassan al Banna in order to understand why the Islamic world seems to be in a death spiral.
#7
Kay,
I totally agree. Plus...so far I haven't seen him say one thing that was explicitly racist in those clips. I don't agree with some of what he said...but angrily condemning the racism of america is not racist in itself, by definition. Of course, maybe there is something he said that I have not seen yet?
At any rate, I think Obama presented some nuanced mature points in his speech and didn't just decide to completely throw the man under the bus for the ease of political convenience.
The question is why does Israel matter in this country at all, we have been put in a trance to believe that Israel matter to our national politics it does not matter at all, I don't care about Israel! I care about my country first the USA...Since has Israel become a litmus's test for the OUR presidency?
It is pretty incredible how simpleminded some of Brian's comments and questions are with this guest. Brian also seems to be dancing on the line of bigotry in that the tone of his questions presupposes Islam is a terrorist religion and is asking his guest to atone for the actions of a few for the past 15 years (since WTC '93)
Violence has existed in most all religions including Christianity's very brutal, oppressive, and bloody past including ongoing bigotry. No other guests are asked to account in the way this guest is. We also rarely go beyond the "they hate our way of life" argument and don't look at historic conflicts between Islam, the Middle East, and the western world including but not limited to the break-up of the Ottoman Empire and the middle east from 1918 to 2001.
We cannot talk about Islam because we cannot get past the bigotry of sound-bites in the media.
All that being said, kudos to Brian Lehrer and WNYC for inviting well informed and competent guest to speak on this and other shows.
To self-identify in any way in reaction to the small-mindedness of bigotry is to become complicit in the bigot's program of de-humanization.
#11
Wow Sue, excellent point!
He talks about "universal values". Lets hear some more about that, things like freedom of speech and the status of women. Islam is supportive of those things right?
I think Sally (#2) gets to the point. Islam is demonized because Israel is demonized by the Islamic world. Of course, Israeli occupation, oppression, racism (Arabs born in have no rights compared to Jews born anywhere in the world) is correctly demonized.
So the powerful Israel lobby wants the US to be at war with the Muslim world the same way Israel is at war with them. And thus it is so. Through their enormous influence on the media and the US gov't, the Lobby controls this discussion.
I agree totally with posts #2 and #7. We should be critical of governmental policies and I also believe that Obama should denounce what Rev. Wright said, but not completely throw away the relationship. If each of us threw out of our lives everyone and anyone who said something we disagreed with, we all would be alone. It is an unrealistic expectation. I have friends that have uttered racial slurs, both black and white. People need to stop acting self-righteous.
I call FOUL. BL playing this speech yesterday, in FULL and again the best the speech.
Clinton and McCabe ask for equal time and fairness!
BL is a obama suppoter!
I Don't Want To Blow You Up! (www.blowyouup.com)
Liz -
Why is Rev. Wright preaching hate but Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson (often closely associated with our government leaders) not preaching hate?
For the guest, what was the relationship between Muslim America and non-Muslim America before 9/11? I realize there are many experiences but I am wondering if essentially most Americans didn't even think about Islam before 2001.
Thanks.
Agreed! Good points from caller (steve). Why do we need to learn about this religion or any other? Does ignorance of Islam prohibit someone from living a happy, productive life?
What does Mr. Patel's organization say about the nature of self-development (inner practices) in Islam and in other religions than Islam? Specifically, how can there be reconciliation between Wahabi views on this and Sufi views on self-development? Why do so many deeply faithful muslims say that sufis are kafir? Social unity seems a nice aspiration, but there are sharp conflicts in doctrine that have intense social divisiveness within Islam. It's not an explanation to say that other religions have divisions too.
so....7% of (more than a BILLION?) muslims agree with terrorism...and we SHOULDN'T be worried?
That last caller, Steve, doesn't seem to have been listening to himself. You can't start out saying that you feel no responsibility to learn about Islam, and then say that you haven't heard enough Muslims condemning terrorism. Are you seeking out sources of contemporary Muslim thought? Or are you just jumping down the throat of a public figure bold enough to say this issue is worth talking about?
Americans, and New Yorkers in particular, have a reponsibility to understand the diverse cultures and beliefs of the people who are our neighbors.
Where do I start... first of all Islam repordedly hates the West YET the are moving in droves to Europe and to the United States.
Why ? Because it is their intention to control Europe first and then the Unted States. Since Europe has become increasingly secular and anti-semetic, they are ripe for the taking. Islam's intention goes back to the crusades and THEY WILL EXACT PUNISHMENT ON THE WEST!
Wake up you who are sleeping. Brian your guest
has good intentions but he is deluding himself. I have not heard any "moderate" Muslim
condem radical Islam and the will not!
Is the critique of ideology an attack on it? Isn't critiquing identity and ideology part of the discourse necessary to such a complex and (post)modern society?
The question is why does Israel matter in this country at all, we have been put in a trance to believe that Israel matter to our national politics it does not matter at all, I don't care about Israel! I care about my country first the USA...Since has Israel become a litmus's test for the OUR presidency?
The caller Steve was simply stating the obvious truth that many of the victims of AlQueda's wrath feel that it ultimately is primaryily the responsibility of Islam to destroy AlQueda. And Islam's apparent failure or seeming reluctance to do that is an ominous indication of deeper beliefs about AlQueda. Like it or not, there is some sense to this anxiety. And nothing short of Islam's successful eradication of AlQueda & radical, militant Islam will make the rest of the world comfortable with Islam.
Obama, religion, and Israel -- this is the crank poster trifecta.
I would argue that you don't hear from moderate Muslims because our media doesn't have a clue as to whom to talk to. Muslims in this country don't even have a reliable Sunday-morning talking head like the execrable Abe Foxman to represent their issues. That's not the fault of moderate Muslims, it's the peril of a small minority in the face of our doltish media.
oops i made this entry in wrong segment!
At the school I went to (French, Catholic, worldwide) kids are taught (Catholic) "doctrine" till 8th grade and in HS they are taught everybody else's religion -
People keep saying "there's nobody out there in the Muslim world speaking out against these terrorists" in spite of that there are moderate Muslims continuously doing it... I think these people will not be satisfied until the Muslim world elects a pope and have him do it. And I can't decide whether it's that the media isn't covering those moderate voices enough, or if Americans are just tuning out these moderates. It could also just be that they see these commentators as isolated individuals.
Is Rev. Wright a Muslim? Is Barack Obama a Muslim? Your show has stooped to new levels of bias with this shameful attempt to perpetuate Hillary's "as far as I know' innuendos. Just listen to the bigoted hatred the last caller elicited with" I don't need to know anything about Islam, other than that they kill people". Good goin, Brian. Maybe the rumors that your show is sponsored by Hillary's campaign are true.
Your guest stated that 93% of Muslims condemn violence. With over one billion adherents worldwide, that still leaves about 70 million people devoted to my destruction. I'd call that a very real threat.
It all sounded rational up until he declared that it's not a choice, religion. It is a choice, to be male/female, one race/ethnicity, apparantly.
That's absurd. He is willing to alter reality to fit his perception. That's a CHOICE.
Mr. Vessio
I know plenty of normal, moderate Muslims! IN NY you have plenty of oppty to get to know them. Shame on you!
No group as big as the Muslim faith can all be crazy!
hi brian,
thanks for this segment on muslims in america. to steve who asks where the moderate muslims are, i want to say this: they are not standing out because they are normal people, just like "you and me." it is not true that they are not speaking out against extremists. when was the last time you spent any time with anybody who happens to be muslim? if you do, you will quickly lose your own ignorance and find that they do deserve respect.
Chris O -
Actually, Islamist anti-Semitism and racism is rampant throughout the Arab world and the larger Illamci world.
From the oil-rich petro-dyansties liike Saudi Arabia whose powerful Lobby contorl much of America's foriegn policy to the smaller tyrannies like Syria and Lybia where no Muslims, especially women, have the same civil, political and human rights that Arabs and Muslims in Israel enjoy,,,despite many of them openly proclimaing their death wish for ISrael and non-Muslims, I'd say your absolutely wrong.
But don't let facts get in the way of your anti-Israel comments. You never have before.
Patel's arguments are poor in so many ways. Religion not a choice? And, he takes our, assumed, relative ignorance of Islam and uses that to dismiss our thoughts on it completely. He has invoked Timothy McVeigh [a freak, anomaly] -- hardly a fair comparison to the average suicide bomber. And, like Barack, he brings up americas racist past, and lingering bias here and there to shame us into not pointing the finger at a guy like reverend Wright.
A good PR guy he is. Condescending.
I agree with the basic poits that the guest is making but considering all the bloodshed that all religions have caused and continue to cause, I really wish that Americans could also have a mature adult objective discussion about the pitfalls of religion particularly concerning fundamentalism and religious influence upon governments.
One thing that I disagree with the guest on is his equating religion and race. People are born into this thing we call "race". There is no changing or converting my skin color (unless I'm Michael Jackson). But religion is essentially a set of philosophical guidelines for how people should live. it is something that can be changed, modified, converted, distorted, swapped, modified and abandoned. It is absurd to treat race and religion as equal and interchangeable.
WILLFUL IGNORANCE is the bane of all of humanity. It is really troubling when people continue to refuse to be confused by the facts in any number of situations.
Putting forth and amplifying mis-perceptions is having a horrendous effect on public discourse and the policies and actions of governments throughout the world. This is as true about attitudes about Islam, as it is Judaism, as it is to Christianity, as it is to ethnic and racial constructs we have come up with to define some one else as "Other".
P.S. People should look into the Old and New Testaments for insight into what has been called "Liberation Theology" for a more nuanced understanding of what seem to be 'outrageous' statements by Rev. Wright.
Nicholas Vessio you make me laugh. I am glad you are retired just sad taxpayers had to pay you. Their intent is to conquer the West, you say. What is our intent, To conquer the East? After all, we invaded their countries, we have military bases in about 70 countries. We (or our surrogates) have bombed Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Pakistan all in the last few years. Did you ever consider our intentions, our real posture in the world, our militarism, our aggression. Or is that too real and you'd rather look at some fantastic caliphate scenario?
I have no trouble understanding that religious extremists have hijacked the name of Islam. A similar thing has happened here in the U.S. Religious extremists in this country known as 'Christian fundamentalists' have hijacked the name of Christianity, and tried to claim that their beliefs, and theirs alone, comprise "true" Christianity. The media is complicit in perpetuating this fallacy.
Is the issue here religion or intolerance (and the violence that it can beget)?
One of the ways in which apologists for Islamist terror in the world today try to get off the hook is invoking McVeigh or making bland comparisons about how they "condemn all violence religous or not"
Moderate Muslims would be taken more seriously if they condem BY NAME specific religous and governmental groups of Islam and their leaders who espouse violence and preach hatred...
Blanket statements are not very menaingful.
Mr. Patel continues to insist that non-Muslim Americans must educate themselves about Islam.
That is absurd.
I am a Christian. It is NOT my job to learn about any other faith tradition - Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. It IS my job to speak up about Christianity when others are committing what I consider to be un-Christian acts in the name of Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, etc.
And so it is the job of Muslims to speak up about Islam when others are committing what THEY consider to be un-Muslim acts in the name of Islam, Mohammed, the Quran, etc.
Mr. Patel continued to insist on putting that responsibility on MY shoulders. It belongs on MUSLIM shoulders and none other.
#34/HJS
This show is covering an active news story, not just waxing poetic on a favored son. In fact, there are stories, all be them shorter, on the other senators right now. And, the last segment vaguely linking Obama, the reverend, and Islam was far from flattering to Senator Obama. The campaigning process in this country needs a radical overhaul, but covering the senator's speech isn't being laudatory.
No Megan, while Saudi Arabia controls a lot of the oil we need, they have NO control over our foreign policy as is plain to any fair minded person. Israel on the other hand, has enormous influence if not control over our policies, as is plain by looking at their policies and ours.
You are right that I am anti-Israel but for good reasons. I am anti-torture as well as anti-injustice, too.
Here are three points to consider:
1. People are saying that they don't hear about the vast majority of Muslims who disagree with the extremists are missing a larger point. We expect all of our information to be delivered to us by the media. They feel like they don't need to do any research.
Here's the problem, it's not that there aren't Muslims speaking out against the extremists. The media isn't covering it. CNN, Fox News, the major networks have all jumped on this administration's propaganda wagon so that they don't lose access and to keep profits up.
If you want to be a critical thinking person you have a responsibility to do your own research and not have it spoon fed to you.
2. Why should those of us who are not Muslims learn about Islam? Because it is a major religion that has more in common with our traditional "US Values" then is different. It is finding this commonality and working with it that will cause the extremists to lose power.
We expect the world to learn about us. Yet bristle we are asked to do the same.
3. Most would agree that majority of Christians shouldn't be judged by the white power groups who claim to be Christians, the Christian terrorists who blow up abortion clinics, or the so-called Christians calling for the destruction of Islam.
So why do we judge all of Islam based on their extremists?
Thank you, Brian, for covering the facts, every opinion and starting these discussions.
Liz-
and where is the "hate"? It is hate to criticize our history of slavery, apartheid and institutionalized discrimination? It is "hate" to disagree with the bombing of Hiroshima? It is "hate" to express one's conspiracy theory about drugs being pumped into black communities (a viewpoint I do not share)? It is "hate" to express anger over racism in an angry tone? Is it that you think it's ok for people of color to express such things as long as they don't get too "uppity" while doing it? Or do you always think it's "hate" when someone expresses their objection over racism?
re:#9
Number 2 mean't, "why can't we criticize Israeli policy". Just in case you were'nt aware, 2 days after 911 Osama bin Laden's message to the world clearly stated that his attack was because of our policies paying for Israel's war. Do you thing poor people out in America know that the US pays Israel more than 10 million dollars a week to perpetuate what most of the World, including the United Nations, has called barbaric? You should read President Jimmy Carters book.
June
good point
I'd like to hear anyone criticizing Muslims for their great sin of ignorance not knowing about Bhuddism, Hindusim, Janeism, Judaism, Mormonism and Zoranitism....
Do Madrassa curriculum include study of other religions?
Just wondering...
Or is it only that Westerners must learn about Islam -
I'd bet that a majority of the Arab world, which is largely illiterate knows less about Christianity than the average Western person knows about Islam.
#59
It is a shame though that we cannot have a public discourse on the religious extremists here in this country because people, like the guest today unfortunately seek to silence that discussion by equating religion with race.
quoting michael:
"When the moderates stand-up and silence the radicals then progress will be made."
Unfortunately this observation is all too true at home, as well as in the Muslim world. The moderates of all political/religous groups remain, for the most part all too quiet, especially here in the U.S.
Thus, these partisan cleavages continue to exist and thrive, at great cost to the world at large.
And the anti-Israelites are now coming out of the woodowrk....led by Chris O
isn't it possible that america supports israel because it identifies more with people who want peace than it does with hamas and fatah who celebrate the mindless death of their own children as they murder israeli civillian children?
isn't it possible that depite the billions of taxpayer doallrs in aid america wastes by giving to the opressive racist and brutal egyptian regime, Americans believe they get
a better bang for their aid dollars in Israel?
isn't it possible that the bizarre canard about Israel's alleged control of America and it's media hasn't changed since Hitler and the Nazis made the same claim?
is anyone stopping you or other potential anti-Israel lobbytists from making the case to support Arab terror states?
Isn't it possible that no matter how many Saudi and Wahabbi petro dollars you would get to make such a case - wouldn't give you any good talking points?
#9 statement is typically inflammatory. Someone asks, "Why can't we talk about Israel policy?" Seems like a fair question, seems like that is a taboo topic if comparing our media coverage of this issue with that of other countries (and our billions in aid and involvement with Israel should lead to more coverage not less).
But what does #9 say - "you are an insidious anti-Semite" for asking this legitimate question.
#45, Mark, has it right: we don't hear from moderate Muslims because the mainstream media has no interest in doing the leg-work to find them and make them familiar faces to the public. A similar thing happens with the black community, where the media has decided that Sharpton, Jackson, West, and Smiley are the only spokespeople for millions of black Americans.
In the absence of good mainstream media, though, it falls on the public to educate itself. I'm ashamed of the people posting here who self-righteously proclaim their right not to have to learn about other ways of life. Since when is willful ignorance a point of pride?
Why can't we talk about Islam? In terms of the media, it seems that we never stop. Islam, like the other large, organized religions, is pedantic, rigid, self-involved. But worst of all, it is BORING. It has acheived a presence in public discourse far in excess of its relative importance to the lives of most people. This may seem like a gross generalization, without any room for the positives, but the media goes on and on and on about religion, and it is stifling.
Please, WNYC, limit yourself in the number of segments you do on your shows with respect to Islam and other large religions.
Chris O
the question is a canard, because Israel is discussed more than any of the 56 Islamic countries.....so besides being a flat out lie
asking the question is a way of slinging the the lie that Israel isn't discussed because of "Jewish" control of the media -- the anti-Semitic libel that you purport here and the Nazis and that is part of most Nazi and Ismaist, white supremacist and other anti-Semitic propoganda...
pretty simple
TO CHRIS O . Chris in all do respect
I spent my career preserving and protecting our First Amendment right to free speech.It is precisely why folks like you can opine out of sheer ignorance about our history and why you can insult me. I would suggest strongly that you read and and understand American History. I hope you take my advice...
Sincerely, Nick
Nick - Sorry, I should not have insulted you, that was wrong. But your comments about a conspiratorial Islamic takeover of Europe through immigration struck me as worthy of ridicule. Name one ignorant statement I made regarding US history (in this case, current events)?
Chris O
Your comments about a conspiratorial Israeli takeover of American media struck me as worthy of ridicule too.
If the mainstream media is controlled by Israel it would not display the level of bias against Israel that it does - see www.camera.org
So your accusation is not only hollow, but insidious.
I went to Mr. Patell's Interfaith Youth Core Conference in October. It was very disturbing. The main speakers denied there was any Islamic terror movement around the world. These were professors and activisits.
There were representatives of a peace group that was working closely with Hamas. Yes, Hamas, were presented as a hard line group that we needed to fully engage.
I came away from the conference with a better understanding of Eboo's empty rhetoric and his true agenda. Check out his writings in the The Review of Faith and International Politics Journal.
Chris, I hate to burst your bubble but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
I am not a believer in conspiracies. You can argue opinion on any topic but you cannot argue fact. There are over ten thousand mosques in the United States. In Europe, Islam
extremists openly condem the West and want to
destroy its core beliefs. I suspect you are much younger that I am. I was at 911 and I lost many friends that day. Try and understand where I am coming from.You mentioned Somalia. When the United States military went
there it was for humanitarian reasons. Instead, our soldiers were met with hostile gunfire and death. Please get your facts straight. The United States has done more good for more countries than any several countries combined. Be thankful that you live in the greatest country in the world. Sincerely, Nick
Nick,
Right on!
My family immigrated here from Ireland and the best way to understand America's greatness is to speak with immigrants.
God bless America!
(sorry to differ w/Obama's Pastor here)
Nick, My facts are straight. I was referring to our multiple bombings of Somalia by the Navy in the last several years, not our role there in the 90's. As for humanitarian, I don't believe it and I don't believe it would be proper when we have needs in this country to be spending taxpayers money to help people many thousands of miles away. And I am sure our leaders understand this and that is why there are never humanitarian interventions, it is a fiction.
I don't believe the "greatest country in the world" stuff. You are saying all other countries and peoples of the world are lesser. I don't believe in that kind of worldview. If a Brazilian, or a Russian, or a Norwegian, says they are the greatest country in the world, I would object as well. Can't we love our country and think it is great without it being the greatest, without demeaning every other country in the world as I believe your formulation does?
Chris, Obviously you hate our country so I would suggest you move to one of the other "great countries you mentioned". You still don't get so I am going to relax now and do something productive. It is apparent to me that you have a skewed view of American history and probably have bought into the move on . org crowed. So, Chris I wish you the very best. Nick
P.S. Megan gets it! So do many of my friends who were born in Eastern Europe. You dont have to believe me. Just ask anyone who was born in a former Communist country. Get their prospective...
why are so many people who live under Arab or Islamist tyrannies dying to move to America?
how many people in the world are risking their lives to immigrate to Egypt? Iran? Syria?
God Bless America
I've recently read Patel's book, Acts of Faith. It is articulate, passionate, and compelling. I'm delighted to hear what he has to say. There is hope in his voice and the voices coming from Interfaith Youth Core.
Thanks Andrew
I plan on getting the book because I think that America should be a leader in Interfaith understanding and I'd like to hear what Patel has to say whether or not I'm in agreememnt with everything he says.
Nck,
Obviously you hate our country and the right of the people to criticize it. That is the foundation of our country after all in the Constitution's preamble and First Amendment. Nick, you and your ilk belong in a totalitarian state like Libya or China and then you would not have to deal with pesky citizens like me that criticize the government. After all, you say that I "hate" my country because I criticize it. That is exactly the attitude someone like Saddam used on his critics. How do you not see this?
Y'know, I should just start on the Comments page before I even try to call in. It might be just as well, though--I have more to say than there'd be time for on the phone.
First: Brian, I hope you'll post a reading list of the books Eboo Patel recommended!
I'm generally pretty open about this topic, but I have to admit I was put off at the beginning when Patel said he told people who hear him speak & then ask where the moderate Muslims are that they were only "pretending to listen" & called people "ignorant." The 1st can come off as an accusation & the 2nd as an insult, & neither is likely to induce people to continue listening. I appreciate what he's doing w/his org., & I'm concerned he may be turning people off to it when he talks to them this way.
And wow. I was going to try to respond to some of the other posts, but there are way too many. But Jason Aydelott said a lt of what I hope I would have in #65. It's amazing how many people only want to hear what agrees w/their preconceptions.
Chris ,I am of the ilk who not only loves his country but would serve it if I could... even at age fifty four. I come from a family who has fought in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.Their service has allowed you the opportunity to spew your rhetoric and vitriol against your own country. By all means you have the right to criticize your country and its policies BUT don't hate it. Understand the distinction.
I have one major regret in my life that I was not in the military. Instead, I became a police officer and retired as a police supervisor (sgt). I had a wonderful career and I enjoyed serving the people of NYC and NYS. Please understand I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TOTALITARIAN REGIMES NOR WOULD I WANT TO LIVE IN ONE. Maybe you should serve your country it might do you some good. If nothing else it would open your eyes and expand your mind . Good luck, Nick V
YOu say I spew vitriol against my country. Where? I defy you to find vitriol against my country in my comments. Moreover you know nothing of my service. You are very presumptuous about me - telling me I never served my country and how I hate my country. What are you a psychic? How dare you.
You must say these things about my person because I made an observational critique of my government, namely bombing many countries. (Of course, this bombing leads us to be hated and weakens us so criticing it is really an act of love. If I hated my country, I would love Bush since he has done so much harm to the US.)
Thus if someone criticizes his government and says it is following the wrong polices, to you that seems like hate. That is precisely the mindset of a totalitarian. Don't you think that if an Iranian citizen criticized his government for supporting Hamas and Hezbollah and demonizing Israel, that he would be accused of hating his country by their leaders - and by citizens there like you. That is just what you have done to me. You do not believe in freedom of speech, you think I should leave this country because of my speech.
I thought that Barack Obama gave a good speech about race. I was impressed that he did not pander and disavow Jeremiah Wright....
I understand the political need to do this, but I did not like the white grandmother "outing" at all.
Black, brown, white or gray (Maureen Dowd's new category), we are all racist of different degrees.
Why isn't John McCain giving an apologetic speech on his relations with racist, anti-semitic misogynist preachers? I was particularly disturbed by his non- responsive smirk to the WHAT ABOUT THE BITCH remark.
Of course those racist, anti-semitic preachers do NOT Damn America...Anti-patriotism supercedes ethnic, racial and misogynist slurs any day. Wave the flag, God bless America and you are perceived as a decent, civil American.
I am 66years old, an American of color, and i've listened to Brian's show for years. I always thought he was a fair man. However,since Obama has been running for President, Brian has shown me a different side of him that, in my opinion is racist and unfair.It is so very obvious that he can't stand the idea of a Black man as President.
I would like to know how the tape of the minister's talk got to the press-who gave it to the media?
Joanne - I think that is a very unfair thing to say about Brian Lehrer. (Disclosure - I am white but some wrongfully accuse me of hating my country like they accuse Pastor Wright; also, while not a Dem, I definitely prefer Obama over Clinton by a mile and think he deserves b/c he has earned more positive press coverage than others).
Perhaps all humans have an element of racism built in, but we can at least fight it, challenge it, control it. Brian is one of the most open-minded people I have ever heard. He is a titan of fairness. I think you should look at your own biases and if you are not hearing what caters to them, perhaps you perceive unfairness.
One thing that Patell said seems to have slipped past in all the discussion. That is his comment towards the end that equates aggressively atheistic books as attacks on religion that are no less than attacks on gender and race.
Note, that one that he didn't put into the equation is homophobia. The thing is this. Religions may be equally important to identity as gender, race, or nationality. However, religions also make truth claims and render moral judgments, which they tend to try to impose on societies. Following Patell's reasoning, ridicule of the truth claims and complaints about the moral judgments are out of bounds. Yet, we heard one on the very show: he said something about "lewdness," in US culture. What did that mean? To me, it implies a problem with the loosening of sexual mores since the 1960s, the same loosening that allows me, as a gay man, to live a normal life.
Questions for Mr. Patel:
Does his organization have branches in other countries, e.g. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon,Indonesia,etc.?
Has he ever talked to an audience on the subject of learning about and having tolerance for other religions in any of the above mentioned countries ?
Does his book sell in any of those countries ?
Does he think that people in this country need to be taught religious tolerance more so then those of the Moslem faith ?
Mr. Patel makes several errors:
1. His parallel to Islam and Rev. Wright are incorrect: With Islam, the adherents act better than, and in spite of, a belligerent and intollerant written doctrine. But it's the opposite with Wright: his use or intepretation of his religion is belies the written doctrine---or at least the current mainstream precepts of it.
2. He says we should not believe the David Dukes etal who may claim to love the USA, but that we SHOULD believe Rev Wright when he says it???
3. Patel misrepresents conservatives in the same way he claims muslims are misrepresented: It's only the dumbed down radio and cable TV conservatives who are obsessing over Obama's middle name. Whereas the responsible conservative publications are looking at such things as Obama's principle mideast advisor, who is a known Palestinian partisan, and one who does not accept Israeli sovereignty.
4. The poll he neglects to mention is the one that found a majority of muslim americans who feel that terrorism by Jihadists is justified.
5. Patel does not understand that Obama's speech yesterday was an attempt to draw away attention to his errors in judgment, by making unprecedented statements of candor with respect to race----and placing race within a larger context than his relationship with the obhorent aspects of liberation theology.
What errors in judgment? Obama had allowed his impressionable children to attend Wright's hate-filled sermons. That we are to accept that Obama never talked politics with Wright, or knew about his anti white anti jewish beliefs. Obama's speech belied the very statement of his female apologist who was a guest on Brian's shows right before the speech was given. She said, "Obama does not agree with liberation theology." Really? Show me a conservative who takes his daughters to David Duke's Klan rallies, but who does not believe in white supremacy.
QED
We have to listen to BBC Radio to hear anything about moderate Muslims, and their voices. Those voices are out there. If you are not doing that, and making pronouncements here about the lack of moderate Muslim voice, then you are deluded. BBC is interested in giving that minority group voice because in their own country they feel the discord and the social injustice brought on my the mass immigration they've had over 50 yrs. Much more than any media here, because after all it is all owned by rich white guys here who really don't give a damn about our social fabric, but only want to keep everybody blindly consuming.
While it is true that ultimately all religions have the capacity for violence and fundamentalism, I feel that there are some qualities of modern Islam that are problematic and are not adequately addressed by moderate Muslims such as Mr. Patel:
1) The proclivity of so many Muslims to respond to acts of perceived humiliation (i.e the Danish cartoons) with outrage and violence rather than discourse. I would like an explanation of how humiliation became a fate worse than death among Muslims.
2) Islam is a "high maintainance" religion, and many of its adherents in the United States seem to expect the general population to accept unfamiliar customs like the full veil, prayers five times a day and foot baths as welcome or at least tolerated additions to American culture.
To me and I would expect many others, Islam has a public relations problem. It projects an image of being (and again,other religions are also guilty of these qualities) inflexible, ignorant, backward and adolescent. While many Muslims are moderate the religion will have problems with acceptance until they deal with the extemists among them.
Re BL's question: How many Muslims live in US. As of Y2K, the estimates range from 2 - 8 million; about 1 to 2.75% of the population. this seemed a pretty good source. http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html
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