On Demand
As Goes Ohio
Wednesday, February 27, 2008
Cleveland Plain-Dealer Washington bureau chief Steve Koff offers analysis of the debate and looks ahead to Tuesday's Ohio primary.
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In today's debate between Clinton and Obama, Obama said he denounces/rejects Farrakhan (and emphasized it after Clinton's comment) but I noticed he still referred to him as "Minister". I just found a blog entry about this:
http://www.crosstabs.org/blogs/gamecock/2008/feb/27/obama_never_actually_rejects_the_ministers_present_support
This blogger says "Five sentences and he doesn't answer a yes/no question with the obvious "no". He does, however, refer to the racist with the honorific of "Minister", not once, but twice. He compliments the minister on his pride in an African-American. How sweet."
So I'm not the only one who noticed that....
Jerry.
I noticed that too. Did you notice that he doesn't answer the Dragon Lady's direct barbs with any kind of sharpness. He lets her get away though with claiming 30 years of experience, while really, she ran to New York State to run for senator, as a salve and disinfectant for eight years of impeachment and scandal, during which her experience was as a first wife, not as an elected official; her efforts during that time were rejected, since she was not an elected official. Why does Obama avoid pointing such things out, while, suffering her vicious attacks about his "lack of experience."
If you noticed that, you must have noticed Hillary complain (like a 3 year old) about the fact that she gets the first question all time. (Poor Hillary) She was trying to use a skit on SNL to back up her argument. (That is very presidential) Did you notice that she couldn't name Russia's new president. Medv....Medva Whatever. Lastly, Obama did say he denounces and rejects his endourcement. What more do you want? If you really think Obama supports Mr. Farrakhan racist remarks then you should vote Republican. I think this bebate will be the last presidental debate for Hilary.
She did seem babyish with the SNL reference. That's not too presidential methinks...
I noticed that too. On the other hand, if she was being a as you say "3 yr old" with her complaints/ then, he was being 3 yrs old intellecually, with not understanding the difference between a denouncement and a rejection. "I can't help it if an anti semite thinks I'm a good guy Huh Huh Huh chuckle snort. So I denounce his comments." Uh, excuse me Mr. Hussein Obama, but... ahem, denouncing comments is not the same as a rejecting a persons endorsement: 2 different itmes there on the agenday, Mr. Smarty Pants born yesterday small ears man.
The russian is Medvedeyev. Get your mouth around it Hilary :)
I thought it was a pretty civil debate, all in all.
The Russian leader is Putin - NOW. The elections have not occurred and even after they do, the Russian leader will be Putin.
Who won?
Tim Russert
Good job Tim.
Tim Russert and Brian Williams have become jokes. CNN has run circles around them as debate hosts. Normally, these guys are good journalists but at the debates, they just lose all reason, all sophistication, and all decency.
I heard on WNYC last night as I went to bed the last question posed by Williams. It was basically: "Tell me what question your opponent must answer about why they are not qualified to be President." It was really just childish, a way of asking the candidates to say something nasty about each other. What a cop out, what a disgrace. He has 90 minutes to do it but wants them to do his dirty work.
i have read that Obama has two and sometimes three times the secret service agents to protect him than any other candidate,
gee I guess not everyone is crazy about him.
He is going to end up like Bobby Kennedy, just hope that
Hilary will have enough time to mount a campaign
that kicks john McCain into the dust.
Substantative debate? what were u watching...
More rhetoric...Louis Farakan is a part of a debate...Tim Russert made more salient points than both combined...these are pointless deabtes...they are just dog and pony show to see who can look more grown up...Universal healthcare?...what are we gonna give up people...Tim Russert with gloom and doom hypotheticals doesn't do anyone (including me) any good.
From the actual debate:
Obama: "Tim, I have to say I don't see a difference between denouncing and rejecting. There's no formal offer of help from Minister Farrakhan that would involve me rejecting it. But if the word 'reject' Senator Clinton feels is stronger than the word 'denounce,' then I'm happy to concede the point, and I would reject and denounce."
How outlandish Obama is being raked over the coals as some kind of anti-anybody? During last night's debate his repudiation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-semitism was clear and specific. Hillary does not believe Obama is really an anti-semetic. She was simply pandering to the fears of certain voters by cleverly attempting to paint him in a corner.
Is NAFTA even the main jobs issue in Ohio?...Or is this just exploiting the ignorance of the masses, once again?
A vote for Obama is a vote for no improvement in health care and state dinners for dictators.
Not to mention having a president who is still learning how government works.
Finally a president who applauds the Patriot Act.
Nader should be the next president.
this Gotcha method of asking questions has become an embarassment. Why does Obama have to answer for every person that say they support him? there is nothing that he can do about it?
Brian Williams asked a lot of questions about political campaign strategies rather than policy. Not too helpful in my opinion. Same could be said about the last question.
What I did like about Tim was that his questions did not necessarily give the candidates the opportunity to go over the same talking points again and again. As a person who doesn't watch that much network TV and therefore isn't familiar with him, I think he did a good job in this instance.
Obama lets all the criticism float by him. Gee, when have we had another prez like that?
I thought the moderators were harsh on both clinton and obama, perhaps appropriately so.
I thought, though, that the "would you go back into Iraq?" question was a strawman. If the Iraqis don't take care of al-qaeda in Iraq then Iran and Syrian most certainly would; hence Obama's stance on negotiating with those nations makes perfect sense.
As for the Farrakhan/Wright question, why has Russert accused one man of another's crimes?? That was shameful on the media's part
on the farrakhan issue: if it matters (and I think it does), obama and farrakhan are neighbors in Hyde park/kenwood (Chicago). I think they may live on the same block, def. Within a few blocks of one another.
All candidate have questionable or sleazy people that support them. They are looking for support from everyone. Just b/c someone endorses them does not mean they endorse that somebody. I would like to see McCain grilled over the many racists and noxious people that surely support him and have said outrageous things. But I won't hold my breath.
So we have a new (I mean quite old) production brought to you by the lame Dems and the MSM: "Let's see who can be most slavishly devotional to Israel!" No matter how harmful to the US and Israel. Israel has never been in such a precarious situation partly due to this blind devotion and funding.
Gracious. Dignified. Unruffled. Forthright. Calm. Articulate. Inspiring. Effective. Strong. And dare I say, Presidential.
And I'm not talking about Hillary.
If Brian is going to bring up the Farrakhan remark--a non issue, he better bring up Hillary's SNL comment and her inability to name Russia president to be.
obama belongs to a black nationalist church, what ever that means
more about Farrakhan- why is this seen as only a Jewish issue. The Nation of Islam hates whites generally speaking, and has many other "issues" beyond racism and anti semitism.
"Denounce: Publicly declare to be wrong or evil." VS.
"Reject: Dismiss as inadequate, inappropriate or not to one's taste."
Seems to me Hilary's sense of the words was backwards.
Obama has the decency to answer questions basically directly, even if they require some elaboration. This is quite refreshing. Most pols like to just get their message and points out so they don't answer questions but generally address the subject of the quesion on their own terms.
I thought Obama really crushed Hillary on the "denounce" and "reject" issue. That was quite a comeback and it was obviously a spontaneous response.
Maureen Dowd:
"It is only because of the utter open-mindedness of the press that Hillary can lose 11 contests in a row and still be treated as a contender."
Our Brian included.
Obama lives in Hyde Park. Lots of people do. So did I when I lived in Chicago. A nice area. So what?
#16, Healthcare? Nobody is talking about Single Payer Universal Care, a la the Canadian system, which would be the only true universal care. Both Clinton and Obama leave the insurance companies power very much intact. Clinton, though, is tied up with special interests, see: http://tinyurl.com/2yohk7
If you played cards with Obama you'd be there all night long cause he'd call but never raise...
Obama is a master debater that Hillary cannot match. She keeps letting Obama get away with vauge comments and responses to questions.
Unfortunately most American voters do not care that he either does not give specifics answers or he causally disarms (in actuality a dismissal of) the subject.
Every presidential election campaign since Ronald Reagan, except for Bill Clinton's has been more about the candidate's television look and sound bites than about policies and judgment.
Obama = Sharpton!? I don't think so.
This caller is so outrageous and such a disgrace to the Clinton camp. She insulted all blacks (they are only voting for him b/c of melanin) and then she says Obama is just like Sharpton.
And now we have a new caller slandering Obama for tacitly supporting Farakhan. the Clinton people are desperate and despicable.
I can't believe Farrakhan is being discussed this seriously. This is truly embarrassing.
It's not fair to say ethnic people do not have the intellectual capacity to be critical of other ethnic people. Furthermore Al Sharpton is a supporter of Hill. Lastly, even the KKK supported Regan.
What experience exactly does Hillary have? New York has not really changed since she’s been a Senator. She lived in the same house as Bill while he was president. So did Chelsea. So if Hilly gets the Whitehouse, does Chelsea get Rice’s job?
Hillary backers are now just sounding sad. How do you bash someone who has the same stupid policies as the person you wackos back. Vote NADER in 08
The speaker's comment on tacit support for Farrakhan is the same as Bush's tacit support for Osama bin Laden via his past dealings with the bin Laden group. Cheney's handshake with Hussein is far more "tacit support"
this may be off topic, but as far as i'm concerned Obama is black AND white. He's half and half, like me (half Korean have white), and like more and more people in this country. Aside from his positions, I like this about him in addition to his upbringing in Hawaii where he gained experience living with mixed race people.
why do you let racists talk o your show?
Brian's conclusion that Obama's failure to hold hearings on Afghanistan will not become a big issue because he was so disarming, "presidential" and not defensive is a PERFECT example of how the press is eating out of Obama's hand. Our efforts in Afghanistan are disintegrating, our NATO allies are at rope's end, Afghanistan is both more important and more solvable than Iraq, and Obama says he was too busy campaigning to hold hearings? This is outrageous. At the very least he could have given up his chairmanship. But then again, he's the messiah, so why should he.
denounce is a stronger "rejection" if you will. You may reject someone and go on and ignore them but if you denounce them you are directing refusal of their policy or statement.
Estimated total delegates
1269 vs 1360
Dowd is wrong both are "contenders" there is no clear winner yet.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#D
To all the Obama hailers, if you think Hillary was tough on Obama you have not seen anything yet. The Republican machine (and the olde racism monster) is just getting started on him.
I am curious to know what will Brian and all the Hillary supporters back aftre March 4th. Will they support Obama or vote for a Republican? I am really curious.
I'm more afraid of Obama being related to Cheney!
amen rp!
obama 08
I personally find denouncing to be marginally stronger than rejecting as rejecting would be implied when you denounce someone....I mean c'mon
and anyway he said fine I'll say denounce and reject.
and why was that caller allowed to get away with saying that there is a connection "for sure" between Obama and Farakkhan(sp?)...ummmm...based on WHAT? Apparently that caller believes just stating something out of thin air makes it a fact. Obama should sue that idiot for slander...he'd win. But hey, I guess facts don't matter to the rabid Billary supporters.
So I'll do the same thing: Hillary has a connection to the Russian mafia "to be sure"...does that make it true now that I said it?
From Merriam-Webster
denounce: to pronounce especially publicly to be blameworthy or evil
reject: to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use
Miriam, #21.
Why does that matter? Two financially successful African-American men live in the same neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago means very, very little. Oprah and Chris Farley lived on the same block in Chicago. DOES THAT MEAN SOMETHING? Trickle-down economist taught at the University of Chicago, ALSO IN HYDE PARK! Is Obama a closet supporter of Reaganomics to go with his supposed closet Muslim leanings due to his neighborhood?
Hyde Park is a home to many of upper-middle and upper-class African Americans in Chicago; late Mayor Harold Washington lived there. I can assure you that ones zip code does not equal collusion.
ron paul has received the backing of white supremacist groups. ronald reagan was backed by the john birch society. does it really matter in the end?
why blacks won't support hillary might actually be political. remember Joycelyn Elders and Lani Guanier? Black women whom the administration didn't support when they were under crisis. Even the Bush administration stood behind its appointees.
dave if there from democratic strong holds like long beach, brighton beach etc they'll vote for mcain. (check out bl show from about 2 weeks ago)
If there from areas where people actually read papers etc (bococa etc) they'll vote obama!
as a Clinton supporter I've already pleaded to support the dem nominee. just say no to "100 years in Iraq McCain"
Shame on Hillary...Why isn't the issue of who voted for allowing "downers" into the food supply being mentioned?
Obama's record on animal welfare is a low 20 compared to Hillary's fabulous 100+ Her staff is not digging enough. The "downer" issue could have killed many school children. Obama got lucky again.
Sad day when you realize how desperate and petty the mighty have become.
I am sick of hearing that Hillary Clinton has more years of experience while Obama is a Greenhorn. If you look at the actual number of political life years for Clinton – all she has been is a one-term Senator. A position that was handed to her on platter because the Democratic Party felt it owed it to her. Obama has had practically more electoral or political life-years than Senator Clinton.
If you think that being a spouse of a successful politician is the experience that is touted, why is that different from nepotism? I am a better candidate for a job because my spouse held that job before. Why is this different from the third-world politics of patronage and dynasty?
Honestly, the segments on this show have been quite sad in the last months not just due to the slanted segments
but more so because of the air of illogical bigotry underlying SOME of the Billary supporters (and again I said SOME not ALL). There is a CERTAIN segment which seem to be against Obama...for no reason at all. I can understand these "democrats" preferring Hillary for what they consider "experience" or her views but some of these people have no good reason and just engage in slander and seem to be against Obama not based on any valid political reason...and when engaged on their reasoning they just recycle slanderous statements that have been disproven time and time again. YET, they ignore this when confronted on it and continue with the slander,lies,etc. I can only conclude that such illogical visceral hatred has more to do with his skin color than anything else as no substantive reason is EVER given.
It's truly sad but this show has inadvertantly perhaps, exposed the face of the racist wing of the Democratic party.
49
Dave,
Some of them will vote Republican because quite frankly their hatred has nothing to do with Obama's views...
why is it that only one's political life should be the measure?
35 years of activism.
#21
Ummmmmm........so what??????? If that is even true...so what?
Do YOU hold the same views as everyone who lives in your neighborhood? I'll be willing to bet a million dollars that I don't. What a ridiculous premise!
How many of you believe that come presidential election time the American electorate (white males=largest voting block) will pull the lever for a black man?
ab #61,
In all fairness, while some may have a problem either subconsciously or directly with his skin color, I think it is more probable that they just feel entitled to the Presidency. They had it from 93-01 and this was their turn again. So they are outraged that this 46 year old unknown has come out of nowhere. It is not the elder statesman Biden, the rounded out experienced Richardson. Maybe they could handle that but it is this unknown orator and it drives them crazy.
Brian, you really could have spent more time, perhaps the entire show, on this segment with a variety of callers and guests -- political scientists, historians and journalists. It's too bad you allow supporters of Obama and Hillary to belie their weakest tendencies or your show. How'd that rambling Hillary supporter from Brooklyn who equated Obama with Sharpton manage to keep you from hitting the cut-off button for so long? And why didn't you challenge her? Brian, oy!
As the election process goes forward and if Obama becomes the Democratic candidat for president, I suggest that Mr. Leher become better informed about Jeremiah Wright, liberation theology and black liberation theology. As one who was in seminary at the time that it was developed, he seems way to ready to demonize and take other people's word for both the writings/teachings and those who have incorporated some of it into their own lives or preaching.
Also, I agree with TPM's Josh Marshall's take on Russert.
Reply to Jerry
I think it somewhat silly to read something into the fact that Obama referred to Farrakhan as "Minister". While you may feel the term as an honorific, it is also objectively a statement of fact - Farrakhan's position within his so-called movement. He is recognized as the Minister of the Nation of Islam. People refer to Chairman Mao as “Chairman” Mao. We don't infer an honorific meaning to it. I think to infer anything into the title "minister" is grasping. BTW, I both reject and denounce the Minister.
What a sad state of affairs when the most
qualified candidate, Sen. Clinton is hammered
by the likes of Tim Russert who has made his
love of Sen. Obama quite clear. The USA is
not ready for a brilliant woman to lead the
country. There are very few women in Congress and when they do get there these men talk about their pearls or pantsuits. So many of the male "journalists" are filled with animus.
They would even try to harm her by asking her to pronounce the name of an unelected future Russian president. At least she knew it. I
wonder why they didn't ask Sen. Obama that one!
Thank you jeapes. So I have to ask the question again, if Hilly gets the Whitehouse, does Chelsea get Rice’s job? After all, Chelsea spent just as much time in the Whitehouse as Hillary…
It seems to me completely disingenuous to claim that there is no distinction between "rejecting" and "denouncing," when Obama himslef relied precisely on that distinction when he said he could not "censor" Farakon for thinking he is "a good guy." What was that if not mincing the difference between "rejecting" and "denouncing"? I don't need a journalist to opine in categorical terms about whether there is a difference or not (is that analysis??) Hilary Clinton intervened in a plainspoken way to draw attention to Obama's evasion, but that plain speaking was treated as some kind of crazy finickiness--a "woman's thing" one could almost feel while watching the conspiratorial grin (the NY Times' phrase) that then passed between Obama and Tim Russell--the old boy's club is alive and well on "our" media. Why is it that the media constantly addresses Obama's concerns about the campaign --i.e. allegations of racism--, but is incapable of addressing the issue of media bias towards Hilary Clinton in any but hysterically defensive terms?
Michael Yearwood equated the American electorate with white males. (Shows you where he is coming from.) I believe the American electorate will pull the lever for Obama because the alternate is quite unappealing and his time has passed. I like McCain, it is just he is 10 years older than Bush and Bush has been there for 10 years. It just feels like a step backwards and I am trying not to be biased against older people. But in this telegenic era that loves youth and neglects the elderly, it is a big obstacle for McCain. And skin color is an obstacle for Obama. But I think he can overcome it.
Reply to Dave,
Hillary actually said "whatever" when Tim corrected her pronunciation. Way to make friends and influence people.
Barack's premise is to bring all people to the table...and thus even though many demonize Farrahkan...listening to all people and bringing all types of people together is Barack's hallmark. Everyone has something to say...even if we don't agree with them. We are a nation of differences.
[72] I agree with your assessment. America is not ready for a strong woman. The entire campaign has been about beating up on Hillary. Well the Democrats will get what they want, the smooth talking candidate.
McCain will stress national security and experience in an attempt to scare the voter. I think it will work. Republicans back in the white house for 8 more years.
[73] All I said was that white males=largest voting block. A true statement.
The Brian Lehrer show responds: Please keep your discussions based on the issues raised on the show. Lets try and keep this on topic and avoid personal attacks!
The Brian Lehrer Show Team
Re Hilary saying "whatever" is so like, 11th grade. Wait till the Republicans pull out all the stops. They're goonna start calling him "Hussein" Obama, putting out Moslem photos of him, dragging up his past, his past associates.... Hey wait Farrakhn called Muslims a gutter religion, too -- now does it matter to you about denounce vs reject? I'm sure you're very comfortable with just simply denouncing calling Islam a gutter religion, and in this case, you surely don't want him to "reject" a racist lock stock and kaboodle, for you, genius, "denounce" is a sufficient rejection of "words." Just words.
In reviewing our next leader, oversimplification is handy and may be fun but only the truly uninformed and foolish actually fall for that. If you REALLY believe all there is to these last remaining presidential (D) candidates is - a "smooth talker" vs "35 years of experience, ready to lead day-one" -- you've been had. Reducing the candidates to mere tag lines is naive to be kind, ignorant to be accurate. We can do better people, much better.
I think experience should be measured by actual years in an ELECTED position. Period.
Calling someone "a smooth talker" is a bit of an insult. It reminds me of the way whites treated Sydney Poitier in the 1950s. As if, just by highlighting your virtues, ie smooth talking, that makes you "a better black guy."
"smooth talker" = " you speak so well for a....".
ugh.
The Brian Lehrer show responds: Please keep your discussions based on the issues raised on the show. Lets try and keep this on topic and civil and avoid personal attacks!
The Brian Lehrer Show Team
The Brian Lehrer show responds: Please keep your discussions based on the issues raised on the show. We reserve the right to moderate these comments to keep people on track. Lets try and keep this on topic and avoid personal attacks!
The Brian Lehrer Show Team
The Brian Lehrer show responds: Please keep your discussions based on the issues raised on the show. Lets try and keep this on topic and avoid personal attacks!
The Brian Lehrer Show Team
I am so fatigued by the "furor" over Farakhan. MF is a jerk, and Obama denounced and rejected him.
Once you move out of New York, all this insane insistence that everybody move in lockstep with the lunatic fringe of the Israel lobby (I'm in support of Israel, but definitely not the fringe elements of it) seems completely ridiculous. That lunatic fringe almost manages to sully the brilliant science and literature that Jewish Americans have contributed to the US. Just as I wish people in Malibu would spend some time in the flyover states, I wish the people who are jumping up and down over M.F. would just reacquaint themselves with the fact that the US has bigger problems right now than whether someone is in lockstep with you right now.
I can't stand Farakhan. But I think it's absurd to try to bring down Obama on the parsing of "renounce" and "reject" and, well, as Hillary herself said: "whatever."
Wake up, people. This isn't an issue. Meanwhile, on real issues, there are plenty.
Why were my comments removed? Shame on you The Brian Lehrer Show. Your review of the comments, as evidenced above by those that were NOT reviewed, is subjective, at best. More importantly, throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not exactly in furtherance of open discourse. Very disappointed.
As an Obama supporter I think Clinton is doing him a great service by hitting him as hard as posssible now on the Farrakhan "connection". He should take this time to further mature and develop responses that will help "frame" his positive message that will resonate with all Americans. In 5 months he will running against confederation of McCain supporting organizations who will:
Try to use his church, liberal immigrant background, ethnicity, religion of his late father and his relatives etc. etc. to somehow "swift boat" / "Lee Atwater" / "Carl Rove" (sorry for my lack of adequate verbs) him and thus :
A) Rattle Michelle Obama so that she will hopefully say something embassasing that can be YouTubed around by Obama haters.
B) Rattle other African American so that they will hopefully say something embassasing that can be YouTubed around by Obama haters.
All of this will be done to more or less plant the seed in the mind of easily frightened (mostly white independant)American general election voters that there is something dangerous / weak / alien and "not in their interest" about this candidate.
This strategy by his opponents will not work if Senator Obama keeps himself, his principles, his enthusiasm front and center. If he can keep Americans focused on him on his terms, he will win. To do this he must deflect the attacks eloquently and by himself. Only he can get himself elected and in the end, only he will occupy the oval office.
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