On Demand
Give Hope a second chance?
Tuesday, February 26, 2008
Fred Thys, a WBUR political reporter, discusses the similarities between Deval Patrick's campaign for Governor of Massachusetts and Barack Obama's campaign for president. The two have used similar messages, policy and rhetoric - what lessons from the first year of the Patrick administration can Obama learn?
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Comments
as a Clinton supporter I found this whole episode silly, does anyone think politicians write their own speeches?
Yes it really is a stupid subject. They all borrow from others...if someone doesn't realize that they have to be incredibly naive. I know Brian watches the Sunday pundit shows..he makes reference to them often. If so, he surely would have seen them play the John Edwards speech and the Bill Clinton speech from the early 90's which Hillary seems to have "copied"...in the case of Bill's speech word for word....people in glass houses,Hillary!
But we're not going to examine the fact that Hillary looks extremely petty now considering those comparisons..nooooo...instead we're going to engage in yet another Obama bashing segment. It's getting really rather pathetic.
Ask Joe Biden if plagiarizing a political speech matters.
If it's the BL show, it must be time to...that's right: (and the crowd screams) BASH OBAMA!
On today's show, we're going to examine the flaws of that *other black politician* via the lens of someone who has made DeVal Patrick his pin-doll since the governor's inauguration and wonder aloud -how might Obama run our country into the ground.
(applause, applause, applause)
Joe Biden was probably treated unfairly for lifting passages from Neil Kinnock, the British politicain. But I believe he failed a course in law school for plagiarism and obviously that is a very serious charge so the subsequent weak charge of political plagiarism had much more impact with that earlier incident.
Plagarism? Barack was not quoting Deval! They were BOTH QUOTING Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, JFKennedy, Martin Luther King, etc. All of those quotatons are in the public domain! Why has no one noticed this? Anyone can quote the Great Fathers without giving credit. Part of the effectiveness of the quotations (I thought!) was that everyone recognized these "words" as famous, standard American quotations! That CANNOT be plagarism!
One more thing: Please stop saying Obama is 'running on rhetoric.'
The guy is running on the history of choices he made, choices like OPPOSING THE WAR WHEN IT WAS NOT POPULAR TO DO SO.
Hmm...can anyone name someone who made a different choice? Anyone?
When Hillary Clinton does what the media continues to fail to do, point out just one of Obama many shortcomings, she's accused of being petty. When she is slammed, ala the Obama-Edwards piling on during earlier debates, she's seen as a whiner who can't take the heat.
What is she supposed to do? Just over half the voting Democratic public chooses to ignore her strong qualifications. Put them side by side objectively, and Obama does not stack up. Then again, it's not called ObamaMANIA for nothing.
The segment hasn't even begun and you all are trashing each other. Don't you anything else better to do?
slower,
Obama wasn't even in the US Senate when those votes were taken.
"And they lived happily ever after."
Hey Brian,
Deval Patrick and Barack Obama have a similar theme to their speeches.
Deval Patrick is governor of Massachusetts, Barack Obama is running for president of the united states.
How Deval Patrick has performed as governor of Massachusetts has nothing to do with how Barack Obama will, hypothetically, perform as president of the united states.
Do you really need this explained to you?
"Obama wasn't even in the US Senate when those votes were taken."
You're right: He was running for the Senate when he took that position. A much more *politically* vulnerable time to do so.
But thanks for pointing that out, chief.
i'm not quite sure how just using the same rhetoric will in any way affect the way you govern.
Obama is lovely but he scares me, esp. his focus on youth - great to engage them of course - great that they respond as well (they really need a reason to take to the streets)and maybe someday a real president
he has smarts and really smart tacticians but i don't know
I think he's a grand poseur - head-tripping - I am still waiting for the substance and this scares me because think about history and other leaders who appealed to youth and how that worked out
Brian:
You started out this segment by saying that you weren't going to rehash the whole plagerism thing but then you turned around and did exactly that by playing not only the "just words" passage that we're all too familiar with, but with another almost verbatim passage from Governor Patrick. Moreover, its really hard to see any value in your premise that because they use some of the same campaign speech language that these 2 leaders would somehow govern in the same way or experience a remotely similar fate.
"He was running for the Senate when he took that position. A much more *politically* vulnerable time to do so."
US Senate votes for military invasion: late winter 2003
Obama's election: Nov. 2004
Yeah, good timing.
BL: "Clinton's plagiarism charges against Obama already have been beat to death in the media, so we're not going to rehash those here this morning, but -- oh, what the h***, just for fun and just to remind our listeners, of course -- let's do a little audio recap of the whole thing, shall we?"
Sure, Brian, OK, whatever....
Please also do back-to-back audio of Hillary Clinton ripping off John Edwards's "We're going to be fine. The question is: Will America be fine?"
Two for two is only fair, don't you think?
OPPOSING THE WAR WHEN ...he was not in the senate and did not have to vote for or against it. boy that's BOLD leadership.
this is segment is absolutely shocking. what is the point of this? if the issue is how do young politicians do once they gain power then why don't we have someone talk about William Pitt the Younger and even further back. Or are we begging to believe that the inspiring young black governor of Mass and the young black presidential candidate are the same person? one of the worst segments i have heard on NPR, i expect such silly talk from FOX.
It is interesting that I never would view BL as biased or unfair. He is the best. But in light of the withering scrutiny he has been getting on this board, there does seem to be a little bit of a tilt against Obama. I mean McCain blatantly lied, or misremembered, in his press conference about meeting Paxson and writing letters on his behalf. But he is treated gently. But Obama, we get this piece, we get pretty relentlessly critical coverage.
At some level it may be fair because the media generally is more favorable towards Obama than Clinton. But 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Samantha Power, Professor of Haar-vaard, is a big-time supporter of Obama. She's been on Charlie Rose a few times.
I'll bet her students would really appreciate it if you got her on the show to justify Obama's use of other peoples speeches.
For better or worse, my family in MA has been extremely wary of Obama because they feel so disappointed in Patrick after he got into office. I was in MA the night he was elected and there was a palpable excitement about the change he would bring to politics that I had not experienced previously, but see again in the Obama campaign. Unfortunately with such high expectations it may be hard for people not to be let down.
A note on the MA healthcare plan too--it is not working out beautifully for all. Some people who don't qualify for the low income state sponsored plans are now paying more money for less coverage because of the way insures have reorganized plans.
Bravo #2 and #4
Dear Brian,
When are your producers going to get that this kind of bias is killing your show and pushing those fair minded voters on the edge to take a better look at Obama and vote for him.
I really can't stand this show anymore. I love the way they try to portray themselves during pledge drive as being above the fray. This show does nothing but bash Obama. And all the callers are anti-Obama. This whole segment has been beat to death in the media. Why are you still harping this issue?
Donna Wilshire, isn't it plagiarism when all of the words surrounding Jefferson's, Lincoln's, JFK's & King's words are the same?
I usually love this show, but honestly don't see why we should believe that these two men will govern the same way (in two very different jobs and circumstances) just because they are friends and have shared rhetoric in their speeches.
I really very rarely get the feeling I'm being set up when listening to this show --- being fed a specific line rather than exploring a legitimate issue --- but I did feel it here, and think I honestly would have regardless of my political beliefs.
Feels bad.
wait.. i get it.... Brian's next segment will be someone talking about the performance of Benazir Bhutto (Pakistan) or Sirivamo Bandaranaike (Sri lanka) drawing parallels between them & Hillary. sounds silly doesn't it.
who thought this segment up? why doesn't WNYC stick to informative shows rather furthering the cause of silly politics.
hjs,
It's a reaction to a "non biased" source of information on the public airwaves that some of them have given money to and all of them have come to trust showing consistent bias for his preferred candidate.
Of course, you would think that BL's approach is fair if you also believe that Hilary has been the victim of overall media bias and not the inept handling of her campaign, financially and strategically.
“Ready on day one”… please.
I can't believe the numb minded reaction. It's Jefferson and Washington and Lincoln and whoever? That's not the point. Plagiarism is you lift entire passages wholesale from someone else's speech not that you quoted those individual presidents. That's inane. What if Brian went to a radio convention, liked someone's speech, then repeated back to the board of directors of WNYC as if it was his own speech. The geniuses here would say, what's the problem? People ALWAYS borrow each others phrases? Give me a break. you don't know what plagiarism is? Where did you go to school? Is caller Susan now officially part of the show? I now understand what Bob Dylan meant in Positively 4th Street. Running on Rhetoric? Yes, people use that phrase when the candidate has absolutely nothing to say.
Biden was in trouble because he stole words. He repeated what the other guy said word for word. He just thought no one would catch him b/c that guy is in England.
Just words? Just words that Bill Clinton was caught red handed in the Windowless Corridor? Just words? Just words that Hillary has spent a career of "experience" as the Numero Uno excuse giver for the Great Philanderer? Just words? Just words that the Clintons spent their lives destroying other elected officials and political personalities as widely reported in the NYT and othe publications? Just words? Just words that the Great Carpet Stainer should not be allowed back near the Oval Office carpet? Just words?
Why does Oboma feel that he has to run on rhetoric? I don't get it. Doesn't he have anything substantive to say?
Just words? Just words that Obama's middle name is Hussein? Just words? Just words that he wears a turban when in Moslem countries? Just words? Just words that he went to Madrasas in Indonesia? Just words? Just words that his pastor is best friends with Farrakhan? Just words? Just words that his church leader is antisemitic? Just words? Just words that he's way to the left of Ted singemboy Kennedy and widely considered socialist and/or communist? just words? I ask you. What are words? What is the meaning of "is" and "the"?
Please remember to keep your comments civil, and on topic. Many recent posts have been directed at other posters, not at the topic of today's program. And some have been just plain mean. Those sorts of comments do not benefit anyone or any issue.
Thanks for listening. Best,
-BL Show-
singling out Obama for "plagiarism" with regards to political speech, using the norms of written thoughts and ideas we learned in school is quite a stretch to say it mildly.
can ANYONE remember seeing credits roll at the end of a stump speech, or presidential address? i havent, so am i to assume that those speeches were the original thought of the politicians who delivered them?
however, the problem w/ the episode was the silly attempt to get us to think that Patrick's first year as MASS Governor will somehow mirror Obama's as president. The two men are different people, with different experiences and possibly different skill sets.
Hey BL, thanks for telling us Patrick and Obama are the same man. I could have sworn Obama was his own man with his own experiences that guide is life and his political positions. Thanks, great work BL. Top notch coverage of the issues, right.
This thread is closed.
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