On Demand
Horsing Around
Tuesday, December 11, 2007
Tony Avella, New York City Council Member (D) representing the 19th District, on the proposal to ban horse-drawn carriages in New York City. But Steve Mallone, owner of the Clinton Park Stables, thinks that this proposed ban would hurt small business owners, and that the accusations of cruelty are false.
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Ah yes, take a horse carriage ride to a Broadway show, that's real New York!
I think the show tune goes: New York, New York, a hell of a place, where no one lives on account of the space..
The city is in the business of perpetuating government jobs, and the status quo of licensing horses, drivers, etc, not necessarily to serve the people (who live here), as is most bureaucracy. Start getting the cars out of New York City and make better places to ride a bike or walk and we'll have even more people lining up to come to NYC for what it is, not for some gingerbread fantasy of royalty and carriage horse rides. (most of the bike paths in the city are a joke, btw)
As a New Yorker, and a cyclist trying to ride in the only place left (Central Park) I think we could do better than to 'whore the city out' to these tourists who are riding in the backs of carriages with blank looks on their faces, thinking to themselves, "Duh gee, aren't we having fun now? Can we go to Ground Zero next?" as I ride by trying to miss the scat.
We've replaced the prostitutes in Times Square with corporate tax prostitutes. Can't we make the city a 'nice girl' the people really want to see as she is, instead of a dressed up 'slut' and build a business/tax model that will make tourist tax income the dessert, rather than the meat and potatoes of our tax revenue? The horse and carriage industry is a smelly but lucrative business for the city government. Good luck getting rid of it.
Why is a Council Member introducing a bill to ban an entire industry. The free market must always decide whether a business succeeds in our city and any other. This seems to be an issue that has nothing to do with him. Council Member's must stop being so anti-business. Perhaps we should consider a ban on the City Council. Now that sounds like smart policy!
Yes! Let's dismantle the tourist industry in New York altogether. Let's throw tens of thousands of people out of work. Let's get them evicted as soon as possible. That way the cyclists won't have to deal with unpleasant people or unpleasant animals.
I just spent a year making a documentary film called BLINDERS about the NYC horse-drawn carriage industry, and the equine veterinary experts I interviewed stated unequivocally that conditions in NYC cannot be corrected in a way that would make this industry safe and humane. The ASPCA, Humane Society of the United States and the other national and local animal protection groups agree: 19th century horse and buggies have no place in the congested streets of midtown Manhattan. This is the trailer to the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31GgmMsFzOM
What would commenter Glenn know about "nice girls"? As someone who is obviously dipped in the putrid syrup of cynicism, sprinkled liberally with misanthropy, and topped off with a rotten cherry of elitism, he's a dish a "nice girl" would politely pass on. He couldn't care less about anything but burnishing his image, - of himself, to himself - as a "NYer" who knows better than all others what NY "really is". He doesn't know the 10s of thousands of people who take carriage rides every year, he doesn't know the people who work with the horses, and the saddest thing of all (for Glenn)is that Glenn doesn't know Glenn, even with all that polishing. {{{{Glenn}}}}} Someday you'll grow up.
Donny Moss works for one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in New Jersey that firmly believes and defends their right to animal testing in every way, shape and form. Why doesn't Donny do a documentary on the real animal abuse right under his nose that he makes his living from? Stop hiding in trees, Donny. Your propaganda film, hypocritical animal exploitations and self-promotion is a joke.
Thank goodness someone is standing up to the carriage horse industry, an entrenched special interest group.
In 2006-2007 there were 7 accidents and one additional horse collapsed. Five people were injured. Three horses died. Four of the 7 accidents happened in Central Park or on Central Park South (so much for the argument to keep the horses in the park). From 1994-2007 there were 26 accidents (an additional 4 horses collapsed and died).31 people were injured. Nine horses died. Eight of the 26 accidents happened in Central Park or on Central Park South. Two of these accidents/collapses went unreported. How many others go unreported?
What you won't hear from the carriage horse industry is facts. They will do anything to protect their industry, including make libelous attacks against a Tony Avella. He is to be commended for having the courage to do what is right and take these horses off the streets.
Excuse me, Gary, but Donny Moss does not work for a pharmaceutical company. This is another example of the lies that the industry tells. Why don't you talk about the facts?
As a horsewoman, I can tell you I've never seen a fit and healthy horse pulling a carriage. There are many different kinds of people devoted to the horse industry. This does not mean they are devoted to the horse.
I agree with Mark in Manhattan, let the market decide, just leave the horses out of it.
How about some legislation for carriage horse care?! Thank you.
Slavery was part of the free market system as well. Same with the drug trade. The carriage horse trade is not only inhumane and cruel, but it threatens public safety. A 71-year-old man broke his hip in April 2006 when a horse spooked and ran wild in Central Park. There are limits to the free market system when a practice is immoral and dangerous.
The ASPCA, the organization that regulates the laws for the carriage horses is unequivocally supporting Tony Avella's ban on the industry. The following is taken from their recent press release:
As the primary enforcer of New York City’s carriage horse laws, the ASPCA can no longer accept the status quo,” said ASPCA President and CEO Ed Sayres. “The ASPCA has always wanted to see the carriage horse industry in New York City come to an end, but until now, such a bill had not been introduced. Increased accidents, the recent death of a carriage horse and the city comptroller’s report all underscore the urgency to get these horses off the streets.”
Responding to Glenn's comment, the carriage horse business is not lucrative to the city government. It's a private business. Two city agencies conduct oversight of the industry, there's manure cleanup, there are real estate tax breaks for stable owners (the department of education owns shamrock stables, so no real estate taxes are paid). It's a cash-only business, so how much money is lost in payroll taxes, income taxes? The industry costs the city government money. As a taxpayer I want to see it go.
Jill, check your facts. Donny Moss works for a pharmaceutical company in Nutley, New Jersey. Starts with a "R". Also, get a life. You seem to have way too much time on your hands. Happy Holidays!!! Going for a carriage ride now....
Gary, you've got the wrong Donny Moss. I know Donny and I can vouch for the fact that he does not work for a pharmaceutical company. Be careful or you'll be sued for libel. And there's another personal attack. Argue the facts.
This is an easy issue.
1. a horse can only work for fours a day.
2. a horse can not work longer than 10 years
3. a horse can not work longer than 5 days in a week
4. If this is unreasonable then ban the horses I have no problem with banning the horses.
Treat them well and keep them or treat them badly and lose them.
Easy.
I think it is easy to get a veteranarian to say conditions for Carriage Horses cannot be made safe and humane. They are in the business of making sure they don't give out any advice that does not subscribe toward creating as close to perfect conditions as possible. I believe there is room for improvement in carriage horse welfare, but let's get an inspector who can identify problems and propose innovative solutions, rather than ban an entire industry before anyone has made an effort at all.
The problem is that it's inherently inhumane to have horses in an urban environment--hard pavement that is concussive and can make a horse lame, extreme temperatures, loud sounds, traffic and other phenomena that spook horses and make them take off in flight. Horses don't belong in a city period. We're not talking about a need here. This is all for entertainment!
Efforts have been made--this is what the regulations are all about. The accidents haven't stopped. It's wrong to put the horses, and people, in danger like this.
As a native New Yorker, I am appalled by the fact that horse-drawn carriages are still permitted in the city, They are an anachronism and are an embarrassment for our reputation as "sophisticated" and "cosmopolitan". Not that our reputation has anything to do with the problem. The priblem is the issue of cruelty to the animals. I, too, am a person who used to ride alot. I even rode in Central Park, many years ago, and was so pleased to learn that the Claremont Riding Academy had finally come to face the reality that the time has past when our city is a healthy environment for horses. The horses that pull carriages are a pathetic sight...even those that do not get into accidents. The people who enjoy them are selfish, thoughtless, insensitive People who could enjoy the city just as much from one of thos bike-drawn buggies that people WHO HAVE THE CHOICE NOT TO choose to work showing others the park and the city. The poor beasts do not have the choice, Thet are exploited by greedy humans. Many drivers have little or no training in driving a horse-drawn carriage. I always have to look towards the east when on a 5th Avenue bus at 59th street so as not to see the poor suffering animals being abused. I hope that other people who feel as I do will suuport the ban in the city councel and not just "sound off" to WNYC. Please contact the city council...all of you who share my view.
It's cruel and should not continue. I agree, get rid of it. And I don't give a crap what the tourists who the media are interviewing think! Let them visit a farm.
And by the way, all the horses aren't retired to farms as the horse-drawn carriage business claims. They are taken to New Holland Auctions in Pennsylvania where they can be bought by a slaughterhouse.
(they cut my previous email short)...as I were saying....I hope that other people who share my opposition to horse-drawn carriages in the city will contact the city council PLEASE.
Thanks.
to Beth,
If the efforts that have been made are in the category of regulation only, I can see how that wouldn't work. It would be like trying to regulate the practice of painting and sculpture. You need someone who will be present to guide solutions on each horse, each driver. I'm sure there is no blanket rule that applies all. Horse management is an art and each horse is different. Thanks to Michael Winslow for proposing a simple framework. Would everyone be happy if someone were around to start helping the stables figure out how to do this? Would everyone feel better if the drivers were required to get more training? Maybe we need to pay the drivers more so we can attract experienced talent. That actually sounds like a regulation, is that one in place yet? Let's also not forget the inherent danger and risk in all uses of horses everywhere. They injure riders and drivers out there where they are "supposed to be" . It is a good question of wether or not NYC wants the risk to enjoy the entertainment. But remember, there are lots of dangerous things we allow to go on. Like the privelege of riding a bicycle in New York. Let's separate the argument of risk from the argument of "cruel abuse". Horses working cannot be directly related to salvery either. Beth, I suppose you are against all horse interaction with humans. Can you see what you are proposing? No more horses at all except on a preservation held artificially free from predators?
Lets separate the argument of what happens to so many horses, not just carriage horses, at the end of their useful working life. I agree it is a horrible thing to send a horse to slaughter after years of service. It's an economic problem. All horse owners need to be banned if you want to play that card. I think the Carriage trade would do well with their public image to guarantee that no carriage horse goes to slaughter. I'll bet it would be easy to get the carriage riders to contribute to a retirement or euthanasia fund. And yes, a money paper trail might be what we need to make sure that happens.
What I'm saying is that New York City is an extreme place to have horses. I'm not talking about any other place because this is the issue at hand: do horses belong in midtown New York? It's inherently inhumane (putting horses in traffic and subjecting them to the danger of injury and death is not only unsafe but it is also cruel).
Let's put ourselves in their position. They are prey animals that are easily scared and yet we put them in one of the scariest places on earth (think Times Square). We also put them between the shafts of a carriage where they can't even scratch an itch. They don't get daily turnout, which is a necessity for horses. Who are we to make them suffer like this when it's not necessary? This is the 21st century.
A public stable is needed in Central park. So that orses would be properly and safely cared for and the safety of all park users would be assured. Horses should be used in the park away from auto traffic. Lets get Central Park a proper horse facility, trails and enviromental education area as well. Let's give a safe and green home to our police horses, carriage horses and trail horses. Horses can be a financial and culturl asset to our city. We have a wonderful public barn in Jamaica bay, however more like it are needed. We should try to have one in every boro.
Tally -HO!
Sydney Delle Donne (formerly of NYC but relocated to chester NJ so I can be with horses.)
It is not also inherently cruel to race a young thoroughbred before his legs have hardened up enough to take the pounding? This is much more cruel to me. I don't know if I would call it creul to put a horse in traffic. Especially if they have learned that it is not dangerous, which all the carriage horses have learned, or you couldn't get them to do it. What about the Police horses, they are out there too. Beth, do you have experience training horses? Are you aware that they enjoy work when handled properly and motivated properly? I don't know first hand if all the drivers know how to do this. But I wouldn't call it cruel the relatively easy job of carriage pulling. The horse doesn't really care where, they care about who they are working for.
There are hundreds of acres in Central Park. An equestrian facility to properly house our police horses, carriage horses and riding horses could bring financial gain and security to Central Park.
Horse should be part of our park, but not part of our streets. Let's keep our horses and pedestrians safe - and do the right thing by building a facility like the one in Jammaica Bay that offers public riding and quality horse care.
build a public barn in every boro!!!
_
-- BL show responds:
We remove all comments that violate our posting guidelines. This comment was removed because it was offensive. http://www.wnyc.org/about/terms_comments.html
Here's an idea for 2008: Let's put a GPS and credit card swipe on each carriage, tax them out the wazzoo, make the drivers pay all their taxes on their tips, and make the 'thousands' of tourists pay the inept transit authority to go to Prospect Park, Brooklyn, where Donna lives - to take their fantasy horsie ride. Get 'em out of Central Park - Brooklyn needs the tourism anyway. Take the Hershey store out to Grand Army Plaza at the same time.
Hi Brian,
Let's take one of your unofficial public surveys! Please ask your listeners to e-mail your website at WNYC.org and incicate if they are for or against the building of a horse facility on some of the hundreds of green acres in central Park. Police horses, carriage horses and riding horses could add beauty, enjoyment,revenue and security to our park. As well as ensure safety for public and horses alike.
Thanks for all you do,
sydney
Keep the horses, lose the loud music. We could do with a little more "low-tech" living these days.
The horses in NYC may look healthier than the horse drawn carriages in countries like India, but the fact that horses are spooked and injured remains the same in any country. The argument of mere tradition to support a trade or business for people does not justify such treatment of animals. We can't say we respect and love them; appreciate their intelligence, then force them to "work" like this. Perhaps the way to deal with maintaining this tradition is to create a space for the horses to live in Central Park and not have to commute from the Park to the stables outside the Park and not to have to do any carriage rides on roads outside the Park.
Central Park is a preserved landmark, so the horses can't be housed there. The horses live on the far west side of manhattan--up to 2 miles away from the park, so they have to go through lincoln tunnel traffic every day. There's no way to keep them out of traffic.
I invite all of you ghouls addicted to humaniac equine pornography (pictures of horses lying in the street, pilgrimages to New Holland PA, etc) to a breath of fresh air - the truth. Go to www.petsalive.com and click on "Our Critters" and then on "Carriage Horses", and you will see just ONE of the many places that our horses are retired to. Go ahead, it'll be good for health - surely all that gruesome smut that you wallow in cannot be healthy as a steady diet. Also - have you given a carriage horse a carrot lately? Left your name & number with an owner, requesting to adopt the horse when he's ready to retire? No? The SHADDAP AND SIDDOWN - as the providers of food, treats, grooming, easy, steady work, shelter, vet care, farrier services, and affection & respect, **WE**in the industry do more on any given day for our horses than you will in a lifetime of crying over them.
And there have been a lot of accidents in the park--see earlier post by Jill Weitz.
I see a lot of agreement that we wnat horse to be safe and well cared for. I myself have witnessed a carriage horse breaking loose from it's shafts in an accident with a taxi cab outside the plaza hotel. So, these things do happen. I think a public stabe in the hundreds of acres of Central park would add revenue and give our plice horses and carriage horses a safe home. Horse and traffic are a bad combination. Build a public barn that will add security, beauty and safety for all!!! and not that it matters, you don't have to wn a horse to love them - but I do and I consider myself a very lucky person.
Sydney
Show us where all of your horses have been retired to, not just one. Pictures don't lie. They're not easy to look at, but this is what the carriage industry does to horses. It kills and injures them for profit.
On the issue of spooking.....anyone who owns a horse in the country knows that a newly fallen log, a stone in a different place, a squirrel, wind, water muddier than yesterday, all make a horse spook.
It's not just the traffic.
Again, Central Park is a preserved landmark and the Parks Dept said that they are opposed to changing this in order to house the horses. It will never happen.
I've been a rider, competitor, and owner for thirty-eight years, and I spent ten years working in the show horse industry as groom, rider, and farm manager.
The carriage horses in NYC are generally in as good a condition as the average schoolhorse, and a lot better shape than most of the hack horses at rental barns.
As other commenters have pointed out, if these horses are removed from the street many -- if not most -- will end up at the slaughterhouse. Horses are too expensive to keep as pets; if they don't have jobs they usually get eaten.
Police horses undergo evaluation and training to weed out unsuitable candidates and render the useful horses as 'bombproof' as it is possible to make a horse. Requiring such a process for the carriage horses could drastically reduce spook-and-bolt incidents.
Train the horses; train the drivers and grooms; enforce the regulations. It's the best answer for all concerned.
The horse aren't properly bathed and Central Park's roads are littered with manure. The horses should be running free in the countryside, not pulling tourists around the Park.
Delighted to hear that there is a true effort to ban this bizarre "industry." Not only is it a visible and disturning cruelty, but the stench on Central Park South, summer and winter, is stupendous. I am AMAZED that the owners of the apartment buildings and hotels in that area haven't complained vociferously.
How many carriage horses have you looked at? Advocates are raising money to buy the horses and place them in sanctuaries. We already have a number of places who have agreed to take them. Perpetuating the industry is wrong and saying that they will be eaten is not an excusing to send hundreds of horses through this punishing way of life till the end of time.
Thank you Councilman Avella you are correct. The horses sit there with those feed bags on their noses sometimes even after finished because the drivers are chatting and ignoring them. They don't get REAL exercise without being hitched not allowed to run freely. From street to small stable. They should be rotated if continued so as to get a day or two off. Anyone with a brain and a little feeling can see there is a problem.
What about the horse sh*t?
As a runner and cyclist I can't help wonder about the public health issues. Especially in August.
This "industry" can't possibly bring in enough revenue to justify the ongoing enslavement of these animals. I feel embarrassed when I see tourists in the carriages--as usual, they are oblivious to the effects of their actions in their frenzy of comsumerism and inflated entitlement.
I would like to see mechanical horses that are driven by cycle power.
Every time a horse is killed or injured is beaten on NYC streets, PETA is inundated with calls from residents and tourists who are appalled that city officials still allow horses to be used in the cruel industry.
Regulations are NOT working. NO inspections were conducted at all in fiscal year 2006.
The only realistic and humane solution is a permanent ban on horse0-drawn carriages.
why is brian being so hard on this guy. Brian is typically even-handed in questioning guests but his questions today are seeming a bit heavy handed. whats going on?
"Beast of Burdon"
if we really wanted to make the world a better place we'd ban all cars --all fossil fuel vehicles and ONLY have horse drawn carriages
I just came back form St. Augustine, FL and they also have this practice of carriage and horses. I could see how tired they were and I can´t imagine how cruel is to have this in a city that has a very warm climate all the time. It´s very inhumane to have this practice not only in St. Augustine but in NYC, Boston, Philly. It should be banned!!!
I wholeheartedly applaud the councilman's introduction of this bill!! It is way past time to get these poor horses out of NYC, and it sounds like he has really thought out the details of the bill very well. Thank you!
what about police horses, which are only used to intimidate people.
At least 30 years ago I read an article in Sports Illustrated that gave statistical evidence that there were more deaths in the state of CA per 100,000 mi. ridden on horses than per 100,000 mi. driven in cars.
Oh, yes, Donna has a vested interest in her postings.. she gets paid by this industry.
Cyclists get killed, and they could get killed in Central Park, because there are too many PEOPLE and horses in a small space. I guess someone on two wheels is worth less than those who drive cars or walk?
Let's stop talking Central Park, start talking Prospect Park or Flushing Meadows. Let's start talking about a public tax policy that really works for people who live here, and stop whoring ourselves out to tourists who want to take a picture of dead air at Ground Zero.
About 12-15 years ago on an extremely hot summer day two horses had to be killed (shot) after succumbing to the heat. I could see that there was something terribly wrong and found out only later that they had to be killed.
I think that many of the drivers of these carriages have no idea what they are doing and no idea of how to take care of horses.
having these horses on the streets of new york is insane.
why is it so hard for us to change, to accept that something that was once appropriate is now inappropriate.
i have lived in this city my whole life, and things have changed. new york is more crowded, the traffic is far worse, and the way that people drive is more dangerous- a lot of bicyclists have been killed recently too.
if the horses could be in the park, and only the park, that would be great.
Maybe the NYPD mounted unit would be able to buy/acquire some of them, I'd have to guess that the horses will be sold if they are forced out of business.
Also, I seriously doubt that horses were intended to walk for 6-7hours on paved city streets.
The worst aspect of this, to me, is the fact that the horses are working on asphalt. Clopping around on this hard surface causes them to go lame quicker. They should put them on dirt surfaces if the business is to continue.
Talking of the mistreatment of innocent horses, the long work hours, the poor living conditions, while at this moment equally innocent people are equally mistreated (i.e. tortured) is truly beyond me. Air-time for a "debate" on horses at this moment in history, with the CIA under attack for destroying evidence of torture, time reflects more misguided, mis-guiding "journalism". Why not spend the segment time exploring this issue? If the answer is, we already did that, then why not keep doing it? Torture continues (on humans, not horses) whether or not we talk about it. Shame shame shame.
The horses are NOT well taken care of. My girlfriend and I both grew up with, on, and around horses and I have never seen such ill-treated animals outside of a slaughterhouse.
They are NOT given constant access to water, usually the buckets with food and water and stashed under the carriage they are constantly attached to.
The horse owners should, at the very least, remove the bit from the mouth of the horses, but really should detach the animal from the carriage becuase they really don't get enough business to be constantly attached to such a heavy piece of equipment.
The horses are NOT well groomed, they smell and they are very often too thin. Walk around central park and take a look at how many horses have rib cages that show through their skin --this is common for race horses, NOT work horses.
Seeing them walk down busy, loud thouroughfares makes me sick and sad for them. There is no reason we should allow this to continue.
This is only the briefest version of the criticisms I have but I don't have the time to continue.
This practice IS outdate and inhumane, there should be serious reform on this practice if it is allowed to continue.
This is not the turn of the century. There is no reason to have horses on the streets of new york working themselves to death.
Joshua stated:
"if we really wanted to make the world a better place we'd ban all cars --all fossil fuel vehicles and ONLY have horse drawn carriages"
Wrong. New York City was incredibly polluted and dirty largely until the late 19th century as a result of the huge horse population--not onll did people have to watch where they stepped to avoid all the horse droppings which were all over the streets and sidewalks, there were also frequently horse cadavers--after horses dropped dead, their bodies would often not pe picked up immediately-with the accompanying stench. Also, don't forget horses (like all animals) emit flatuelence which is also a big source or methane population and greenhouse gases. No--an overabundance of horses would not be a "green" soultion.
If the council member is concerned about humane treatment of animals, perhaps he should look into the use of glue traps as a means of rodent control. These traps are used all over the city and in my opinion are a far bigger aninmal rights issue than horse drawn carriages in Central Park.
I saw a horse drawn carriage last week on 52nd street and about 8th Ave. at about 11PM. Traffic was heavy and it was cold. The horse look tired and extremely depressed. The animal may have been on the street for more then 8 hours, who’s to know.
I say ban the carriages now. And drivers need to find other jobs.
Poor Glenn - please gather your thoughts before posting. How could *I* be insecure about *your* analogy? Makes no sense. And the rest of your post confirms my initial evaluation - you are one of the legion of big-government curmudgeon elitist PC fascists that have sprang from the loins of the left in the last 20 years. With this in mind, I can only feel sorry for you. Cheer up.
If you support Tony Avella's ban, call Speaker Christine Quinn and Mayor Bloomberg today. They need to hear from people!
It's not how long the horse is actually "working" (giving a carriage ride) but how long he is standing on concrete in that kind of stressful environment. Horses are not meant to stand and walk on concrete. Anyone who knows anything about horses takes one look at the state of the horses feet in Central Park and knows this is a travesty. Even non-working horses need monthly maintenance from a farrier; obviously working horses would need much more. Are these horses getting daily hoof care and attended by a farrier each month? This is so important to their health and comfort and if you see most of the horses in Central Park they have horribly overgrown hooves and swollen legs.
To World's Toughest Milkman: Hmmm. Are the 'paved city streets' that the police horses walk and stand on for 8 hours with 180 lbs. on their back any softer than the ones the carriage horses traverse? Another genius.
To Amanda Taylor: With the 'logic' you are employing, it would follow that bicycles should be banned, also.
on the issue of the manure....
it's not like meat eater's poop, it is simply ground up grass. It's much (tons) cleaner than dog, cat, and human's meat eating feces. It takes only a few hours for it to turn to dry mulch. It's the best food safe fertilizer. It is not at all full of fetid bacteria. It's like 95% grass held together with a little mucous. OK sorry everybody for the graphic description, I'm trying to help. Hope this makes everyone feel a little better about seeing horses "standing in their own feces". And bike riders dodging it - I hear you about the slippery part, but don't sweat the filth of it.
OK Donna, you get the last word, nasty at that, and wrong, just like an insecure person in Brooklyn needs. I'm voting for Ron Paul in 08, btw.
To all others, write to your councilperson and soon we'll get good democratic transparency with their stats on how many people write their council person about what. Yes, Donna, you write too.
Forward this link to all your friends
http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml
To Hillary: You are a breath of fresh air. Thank you for posting. For the 16 years that I drove a carriage, it was a rare day that went by without a real 'horse person' commenting on how fit and quiet our horses were. Thanx again, and enjoy your holidays!
I think if the ASPCA deems NYC conditions inhumane for the horses, the industry is inhumane and the animals should be sent to sanctuaries like the farm sanctuary in Glenns Falls. It's not as though NY doesn't have other tourist attractions! Is it good for our image that we are cruel to animals?
I agree, Central Park is overrun but it depends on your vantage point, Glenn - cyclists don't have enough space in Central Park - and btw where is it written that Central Park is for cyclists! It's too small and overcrowded to give cyclists what they really need, room to speed up and fly. They terrify me - one nearly took me out one day - knocked me over on rollerblade squeezing between me and a cab - now THERE's a subject for something to ban in Central Park.
There are just too many people in NY. I know someone who was so severely beaten up riding his bike in Corona Park that he may never cycle again.
www.petsalive.com - I dare you! LOL
Thank you for airing the story of the current effort to ban horse drawn carriages from nyc. I am fully in favor of such a ban. Horse drawn carriages are a vestige of another time and are unnecessary, inappropriate and inhumane in NYC 2007. To look upon the image of the horse and his carriage idyllically is another example of how we, as humans, convert other sentient beings into objects. It is a sad comment on our lack of vision that we haven't advanced beyond this understanding. It is time for NYC to follow the example of other forward thinking cities and ban the exploitation of our fellow beings.
"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons.
They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men." Alice Walker, The Color Purple
To Justin,
Your say you grew up around horses. Doesn't sound like you had a very good instructor, and that you make be one of those " backyard horsemen" self taught, who unknowingly endangered the health and life of your horses every day.
Constant access to water. Skilled horsemen know this is a potential founder recipe.
Remove the bit. Who taught you saftey procedures?
Not well groomed. Were you giving too many baths? I guess you don't know how this irritates skin, and yes, an hour of brushing is the right thing, but skilled horsemen know the dirt is not the problem. Only the dried sweat under the leather. Maybe you did not realize even the best show stables don't groom for show every day, it would be too much for both the horse and groom.
Smell? Most, no all, horsemen like the smell of horses. Maybe you hadn't spent enough time around horses to develop this.
Rib cages showing? Some breeds just don't hold fat like draft breeds. Doesn't mean they are starving. You should know this.
Seeing those horses lined up along C.P.S. and pulling the carriages both inside the park and throughout the city is just really sad. It's clear that, as a popular bumper sticker said, horses don't belong in traffic. But do they belong in the park? No and not just because of the poor stable conditions: these horses are not treated well. Why is it that several have died in recent years, and not of old age? The drivers generally have very little training in horse care or much interest in the horses at all. Let's face it: it's a syndicate and a tough one at that, with close ties to politicians, immigration authorities and less savory characters. The horses are pawns and voiceless ones at that. Free them and let the pedicabs take over the turf. The pedicab drivers are ferrying people by choice, not as a stop on the way to the glue factory.
And taking the horses off the carriage out of the barn? Are you crazy?
Justin, have you learned anything? Or are you one of those people who occassionally rode a rental horse, have a friend who had a horse, and so now you are an expert?
Having a horse stand attached to a carriage not moving. How in any way is this bad? In a stall they would stand. In a pasture they would stand. Ok it's not quite as nice, but it's no hardship. It's still standing. No weight on their back.
Maria,
Maybe you are not aware of how many horses die on farms owned by the best horsepeople on the planet. They die all the sudden in the prime of life. Not overworked.
It seems everyone against the carriage trade has no idea how frought with risk, constant injury and sudden death the entire horse population is. No matter where they live and work or just stay in a pasture and do nothing, as so many of you want to see. You have no idea how running around in a pasture can be of equal risk.
I feel for you all. The shock that a beloved sentiant animal could at all possibly be exposed to any potential harm. Every good horseman does everything in their power to prevent all harm and injury, and still, they know for certain that harm, injury and potential sudden death has a good chance at any moment to happen to their horse. We have learned to accept that, and do everything possible to prevent it. Vigilance to be extremely disciplined to follow the rules of digestion and circulation must not falter. It still happens, and it devastates each owner everytime.
It's not just New York City Carriage horses. Banning this will get it away from your eyes, will send those horses to slaughter. I just want you to know that the same thing is happening right now, out there in the countryside. There is a horse, unexplained, collasping to his death right now. Not pulling a carriage.
Barbara - Rarely have I seen a more eloquent, informed, and comprehensive overview written about the symbiotic relationship between man and horse, and on the realities of horse ownership and use. I encourage you to write to the NY Times, where your voice can be heard by many more people who need to hear it, and invite you to comment on our business at any given opportunity. Thank you!
Here's the kicker, though. They don't need to be out there in all weather extremes, breathing in exhaust fumes and putting themselves and us at risk. Even the ASPCA has come out in favor of a ban on this cruel industry. The audit showed serious neglect. And these horses come and go so often...where do they go? To slaughter? I don't believe for a second that there is some big unidentified, imaginary farm with hundreds of horses who are now "retired." It doesn't add up.
That's a really bad argument for not taking the carriage horses off the street. Because other horses suffer, we should let these animals suffer? As I said earlier, there are good people who have already volunteered to take these animals and there are a number of horse sanctuaries. You can't let an evil continue because an evil exists somewhere else.
Jason and all about the weather extremes:
Horses are open prairie animals well adapted to extremes. You wouldn't worry about a buffalo out there. Horse is the same. OK below 15 degrees for hours at a time,yes, that's too much. But just because it's cold....rest assured, there is no harm. You know, all horses absolutely must continue their work schedule or they will get sick. Cold or not, they must keep moving. This is the prairie effect. And, most sport horses have to be shaved in the winter because their fur gets so thick that they sweat too much if they move too fast. The Carriage horses are not shaved, nor do they work at speed extremes to sweat too much. It better be cold, or all that extra fur would kill them.
Beth,
You have hit on the real argument here. YES. Is it ethical? Is it what humans should do with horses? You cannot isolate a few barns in the city to pick on, destroy, and go home feeling you solved some sort of big problem. You have to address the entire horse world. Are you ready for that?
I want every one who wants to ban the carriages to realize this is what they are upset about. They are upset at being forced to look at the reality of what happens with horses. If it takes the shock caused by your misunderstanding normal standards of equine management to allow for a change for the better, I applaud you. Every barn needs to improve, city or country, because it's easy to become complacent with good equine management. Because it's so involved and the work literally never ends, humans find themselves drawing the line somehwere, not always at the right place. We need an ethical way to euthanize available to all. I could go on but you get the point.
Thank You for the show about the horse and carriges of nyc. I get a sick and sad feeling very time I pass these horses. They are amazing creatures. To be put in the middle of nyc in traffic is cruel. It is even sadder to see the stables were they are kept. Patrice
As someone said (I think it was a Zen Buddhist), shine the light on your corner of the world. This is what NYC residents are trying to do. Take care of these animals and eliminate a hazard to both humans and animals. The next step for some of us will be to address this larger issues involving horses. Let's start in our own backyard...
Thank You for your show on the horse and carriages of NYC. It's very sad to pass them on the street. They are amazing creatures. To put them in the middle of traffic in NYC is cruel. It's even sadder to see the stables in which they are housed.
Beth,
I'm all for public pressure to change what can be changed. I'm sure there is plenty that can be done. I suspect higher fees for a ride could help, and I want the riders to know what they are paying for. I also want the silly topics, that are not at all abuse to be dropped now. Like the cold, like the water, like the exhaust, the list is endless and should not enter the argument because it's so mis-informed that, as you see, most horse people don't even respond because it's so laughable.
What you are saying is horses should only be in pastures doing nothing. Or be wild. How can horses go back to that? And I think you don't really know horses or you would be so upset about them working.
Typo, Meant to say:
If you knew horses, you would NOT be so upset about them working.
Fer cryin out loud: Give the stressed out horses a pasture to chill with their significant others or stop this cruel nonsense. If the Parks Dept. and ASPCA can not manage this tourist attraction. NYC has the Statue of Liberty etc.
And: Glenn and Donna: cut it out.
Please people, this is getting ridiculous! Human beings die every day in our city from gas explosions, scaffolding collapses, window cleaning, heart attacks, traffic accidents, murders, domestic abuse, you name it! All you can think about are some horses that any novice can see are well taken care of and fed?? Get real. I am embarrassed to live amongst such a small-minded obsessive community of animal crazies that could care less about human life and spend all day blogging about animals. Get over it and get on with it! ENOUGH!
Bernd:
Can I comfort anyone with the fact that there is alot of social life going on in the cramped barn? And socila life out there on the hack line? Just because you can't tell when it's happening, doesn't mean they aren't getting some herd politics taken care of.
Just so you know, turning horses out together is a long and very dangerous process that is carefully developed. Horses will attack first, ask questions later. Usually severley injuring one or both. It is one of the toughest questions and I'm glad you are directing this to the Parks Department. I consider them having alot of what would soothe people's nerves about this, but they do seem to hope it will all go away. Their loss.
Lisa
I'll be here all day to answer anyone's questions. This is basically a lynching. Trying to take a business down based on total misinterpretation is about Civil Liberties. Kinda on the level of Guantanamo.
Horses are not suited for standing and walking on concrete all day. They shouldn't be forced to breath in exhaust fumes and walk through traffic. I myself am afraid of taxi drivers. Horses spook easily. The NYC training manual shows that they are spooked from sounds (hello, this is NYC!), manhole covers, etc. It's unavoidable. It's time to do the responsible thing - end this business. Move into a job that doesn't harm animals. Horses were not made to pull carriages. They are here for their own reasons and would much prefer to be in a pasture grazing and doing all the things they do naturally (run, even, on the soft earth that isn't cement). It's pretty common sense than standing in their cells at night and when they aren't working in some warehouse is not what they would like to be doing. I'm thoroughly saddened by the fight to keep this for profit industry going.
Lynching? So sad.
We have no right to condone cruelty to animals. There only violations here are done against defenseless animals.
As a wise woman once said, "Rights movements never go away, they always get stronger."
So I guess no one can be convinced right now that pulling a carriage is not cruel.
I know everyone likes the idea of horses in a pasture as ornament, but it's not realistic. Only a few can afford to have ornamental horses. They are too much work. And you know, they get pretty bored out there too. They start eating the fence. They start digging their way into the earth. They start beating up on each other for stimulation. You see them out there at peace only as a respite from work, which keeps them stimulated. I'm not saying a horse cannot adapt to the pature and be OK with it. But don't think all horses want or need this and only this forever. You underestimate their intelligence and curiosity if you do belive this. Most horses have to have something to do, and they'll find it, good or bad. So I guess you're saying if the horses want to injure themselves out of their own free will, or strangle themselves with wood splinters that's OK to have as your mission to set up all remaining horses on earth for that. OK. I can see how that appeals.
Meantime, try to realize that the pulling of carriage is not in and of itself cruel.
The hard pavement topic:
Yes, everyone is onto one of the toughest points. The best way to keep injuries down is by limiting speed. I never see a Carriage Horse moving faster that a slow trot which should be the speed limit. Sometimes I see a fast trot or a canter on the side street with no passengers. I defer to the judgement of that driver who may be rewarding his horse with a short speed blast after a good days work.
There are horses that can take this pounding and never suffer. Many breeds in fact. I'm sure it does happen, at which point that horse is retired. Does anyone want to know about all the injuries, way, way way, way way way more injuries that are caused by traveling on soft ground?
Take a poll of the tourists (not to decide the issue on what they say, but to consider something):
Ask them, was it fun?
Like what Glenn says in the first comment, I suspect they don't find it fun. Most that I see sure don't look like they're having fun. Heck, you can't even see the horse from where passengers sit!
I hope all the people that want to ban the carriages are going to right now, right along with this argument, start to take on the entire horse industry for any and all practices that potentially cause discomfort or injury or death, and not just single out this small industry in New York and be done.
Beth, you say this is the first step, your own backyard. But I say you don't have the guts to go beyond your backyard. You think because there is enough people here who know nothing about horses, and can easily be duped into signing your petition that carriage work is cruel and you will congratulate yourself for being the big bully on this block, by corralling a city full of ignorant bullies who imagine themselves as carriage horses and make all their judgement calls based on that picture in their head.
I stand by my definition of a lynching.
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