On Demand
Explaining Mormonism
Tuesday, December 04, 2007
Jan Shipps, Professor Emeritus of History and Religious Studies at Indiana University, explains some facts about Mormonism and Mitt Romney.
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Brian,
Happy to see you are doing a spot on Mormonism. I am a Mormon living in Manhattan and see a place in my religion for social liberals. I see mormonism as always having been progressive in its views and doctrines. However, some leaders have made Mormonism seem conservative and close-minded (not that one can't be conservative and open-minded) I'm interested to hear Jan Shipp's views on the subject.
Wasn't' Smith bi-polar?
And he talk to an angel on the other side of a blanket?
Barry, what are you even talking about? Please do not comment if you do not have an informed view.
the only difference between a cult and a religion is....number of participants, years of existence, and your own personal religion.
there is nothing i have read about the beliefs of mormanism that is any more outlandish than most of the old testament.
it's all just a matter of numbers.
FYI
some Protestants do not consider Catholicism to be Christianity.
One possible reason for "conflict"? power....
Evangelicals and Mormons compete for conversions.
Even better, he interpreted the Golden Tablets which became the Book of Mormon by looking into a hat!!! What a joke! And Stephen, don't comment if you're just going to be bitter.
I hope the guest mentions that Mormons believe Jesus was in North America...they sound as zany as Scientologists and their aliens in your belly notion.
secreteights, you're right. i'm sorry. there are definitely strange things in the history of my religion that i recognize. i'm sorry for being bitter.
I'd like to hear some comments about the Mormons conduct in Utah prior to statehood. Such as that little Holy War waged against the US government, establishment of a theocracy, persecution of non-Mormons, etc. etc. I realize it was over a hundred years ago, but I think it's important to discuss where they came from. But, on the other hand, we should also discuss the persecution OF Mormons by other state governments.
Why hasn't the Book of Mormon been mentioned? What about the ancient era civilization that is purported to have existed in North America? What about the line of prophesy of Joseph Smith? These are aspects that I imagine would be unacceptable to Christians.
As a practicing Mormon, it is SO refreshing to hear public discourse about my religion that is accurate. Almost invariably, public discussion is full of minsunderstanding and innacuracy. Thank you Brian Lehrer for brining on Jan Shipps, a first-rate source, and thank you Jan Shipps.
Steve wake up
Smith reported that, at the age of 14 (or thereabouts), he experienced a theophany, an appearance of a God to man, or a divine disclosure, referred to by Latter Day Saints as the First Vision. Smith recorded several accounts of the vision later in life[3]. The version which is most well-known and read was published in 1838.
The Nicene creed is a statement of the CORE beliefs of Christianity -- is the Trinity a technicality!? Not to Christians!
If you do not subscribe to these beliefs you are not a Christian, pure and simple.
How would any of your (non-Christian) listeners feel if someone took their faith and conflated it with new dogma?
Will we be having a similar show about the "Scientology faith" when a Scientologist runs for national office?
It is flat-out a lie that it is only recently -- evangelicals -- that are labelling Mormonism non-Christian. Since its founding it has been considered a non-Christian cult.
Slipperly slope we are on...
I don't understand how your guest can assert any similarity between the use of a Mormon Temple and that of a Jewish synagogue. A synagogue is overwhelmingly used for communal services and worship and only rarely for private ceremonies such as weddings - and, in fact, not at all for that in the strict Orthodox rite.
Stephen, almost as many strange things as there are in the older, more established and "recognized" religions. They all have them; I mean, c'mon, transubstantiation? That is not to say that the messages being put forth (love thy neighbor; thou shall not kill, etc.) aren't worth something. They are. And that is what needs to be focused on.
Another thing worth discussing is how Mormonism influenced the Native American Ghost Dance in the 1890s. Mormonism has, simply by virtue of location, has shaped Native American society for over a hundred years.
So like I was saying, wasnt the book of Mormon reportatly dictated to Smith through a blanket?
The difference between Mormonism and orthodox christianity cannot be just in explanation of the trinity.
Even in orthodox christianity there is a lot of argument about the nicene creed and the composition of the trinity. The idea of God and Jesus being same or separate entities is not a settled issue.
Many mainstream churches leave the question alone.
Secreteights, I agree with you. Thanks Brian for a good look at Mormonism.
Next guest, Brian, have a Christian theologian (or historian) who can point out the NUMEROUS non-Christian beliefs of Mormons.
Then let's discuss Mormon practices, both current and historical -- this is certain to open a few eyes.
This was a crap look at Mormonism,
Nothing that matters was discussed.
Not enough time, well it may come up again.
My bad it was his spokesman who was bipolar
Sidney Rigdon had a major influence on the LDS between 1831 and 1839. In spite of his mental illness -- apparently bipolar affective disorder -- he was Joseph Smith's spokesperson and was responsible for a number of:
As an atheist, I find it such a waste of time to "discuss" any religion when the basis of any of them is blind faith without any room for reason.
There is just not such a thing as "objective and logical discussion" when it comes to religious beliefs.
If anything, subjects of discussion where critical thinking and reason are needed in order to be able to talk about them are much more needed in a country where not only 40% of the population "doesn't believe in" Evolution but we have presidential candidates saying so as if it was a "badge of honor" and not a complete embarrassment.
This is a pretty good summary of the differences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity
They are substantial and numerous.
One good one:
"The oft-quoted saying (by Lorenzo Snow, a Latter Day Saint Prophet) that captures this idea is, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be." Simply put, this means that God was once a mortal man, and that men can become gods."
Christians do not believe that men can become gods, only share in God's energies by his grace.
I encourage everyone to pick up a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it (as I did once, finding it at my motel bedside with nothing better to do)
good comment by brian at the end of the interview about their not being any christians/christianity in the western hemisphere when the europeans arrived.
the last writer/prophet in the bookofmormon records/explains how the people completely rejected all christian teachings and, :::gulp:::, nearly wiped each other off the face of the earth. warswarswars. such sadness.
Rosie, this is something I've been struggling with as a practicing Mormon. My religion is very much a cultural part of me, and I can't just leave it by the wayside, any more than I can't just leave my being American by the wayside. However, as practicing my religion does make me happy, I think I've found a way to be happy while not basing my belief on blind faith with no room for reason. I think it is possible to approach faith with critical thinking and reasoning. I just don't know if Mitt Romney has done so...
Thank you Brian for following up yesterday discussion of Mitt vs. Mike Mormom/Chirstian question. I think you picked the perfect person to answer this question. Jan Shipps is a well known and well respected scholar in both Mormon and non Morman circles. As a convert to the Mormon faith, I appreciated her comments about the move "The Godmakers". It WAS a cartoon version of the Mormon faith that was shown in many Evangelical churches in the late 80's and early 90's that has absolutely poisoned many Evangelicals view of the Mormon faith. I can't tell you how many conversations I have had with my good Evangelical friends who come up with the weirdest comments and questions about my faith.
Please keep up the good work Brian!
Well Mormonism is weird.
Smith got the Golden Tablets from who? How?
Next your gonna tell me a man came back from the dead!
some good thoughts on faith vrs. reason. i remember reading from the pbs.org sight on _the mormons_ (did you see that frontline documentary?) terryl givens, one of the talking heads in the peice, was asked about this in regards to the _bookofmormon_
the snippet is to big to paste here (i tried!) so click over and search for the words:
"corresponding weight"
which will bring you to the right place in the interview. (read the para's above and below too)
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/givens.html
hjs: "some Protestants do not consider Catholicism to be Christianity"
This is not really true. Early protestantism -- the operative word is "protest" -- began with Martin Luther (in 1517) writing a scholarly work to clean up some (Catholic) church PRACTICES. That is why you were told about the Protestant REFORMATION in history class.
What divides Christians today is small; and the closer they adhere to scripture, the smaller that difference.
jeapes: "Many mainstream churches leave the question alone."
Funny that -- ask yourself why? "Mainstream" churches leave a LOT alone. {a great example is Leviticus 18:22} That is why all of these denominations are shrinking. Evangelical faiths have grown explosively due to their closer adherence to scripture.
Heather, great link. I think Terryl Givens is a gift to the Mormon Church. He is obviously a man who exercises his faculties of reason.
Brian, both Teryl Givens and Richard Bushman would also be great interviews, to get a view of the Mormons from actualy Mormons. Both are respected scholars.
Also, there is quite a mormon blogging scene that gives good insight, if anyone is interested, see here: www.timesandseasons.org.
SF, I am afraid I will have to disagree with the "culture and religion package". Even though religion might be part of a group's culture, the absence of it doesn't mean the elimination of the rest of that culture. Actually, if you look around, there are a lot of developed countries where the population is highly secular while still maintaining a very rich cultural life. Culture is much more than religious manifestations.
Regarding religions and reason, I just do not see how you can have one without abandoning the other, unless what attracts someone to religion are the rituals and not the beliefs themselves. But still, doesn't it feel funny to follow the rituals when deep inside you do not believe in what originated those rituals?
Finally, wouldn't it also be acknowledging that the deity is not when the religion claims it to be since in order follow it I would have to relinquish what might constitute the essence of being a human being (reasoning), and that was given to humans by the deity for a reason?
some Wiki gems
"...Book of Mormon narrative do not agree with modern archaeology and that mainstream archaeologists and anthropologists view the Book of Mormon as a work of fiction."
"...Mormon view that Native Americans are solely descended from Hebrews in Jerusalem is inconsistent with findings from the science of genetics"
"...certain linguistic properties of the Book of Mormon provide evidence that the book was written by Joseph Smith, rather than obtained from divine sources."
"...Book of Mormon, published in 1830, contains many concepts that are identical or nearly identical to those found in an earlier book, View of the Hebrews..." "... leading to them to conjecture that Smith did not receive the Book of Mormon from divine sources, but rather wrote it himself, partially plagiarizing the earlier work"
"...the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon (Marting Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer) denied their testimonies in later life, or made statements that cast doubt as to the sincerity of their testimony"
People define their spiritual beliefs by the authority they are under. Muslims put forth the Koran as their aukthority, Jews the Torah, or what we usually refer to as the Old Testament. That is why it is absolutely AMAZING how you could get through a discussion of Mormonism and not once mention the BOOK OF MORMON! That plus the bible is their authority. True believing Christians have as their authority the revealed Word of God, which is defined as the 66 books of the bible, alone and in its entirety. We believe that it is the only inspired Word of God, that there is no other, and that we are not to add or subrtact from it.
Joseph
even more, the the "Standard Works" of LDS Church) consists of several books:
* The Holy Bible
* The Book of Mormon
* The Doctrine and Covenants
* The Pearl of Great Price
the last of these contains, among other things, The Book of Abraham, which modern scholars consider a fraudulent document as translations of the papyrus (from which the book was supposedly derived) don't match the text
please have a scholar explain the nephites and if they truly existed and where mormons believe the garden of eden existed .... there should also be discussion on who joseph smith was and what he did prior to his vision...
also, a scholar should comment on the pressure women have in the church to marry young and have children; and that link to get to the highest level of heaven....
so much more to discuss
thanks.
don noname:
i suggest you do some reading. a great book that answers many of those questions is Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling. Although he is Mormon, he gives a fairly levelheaded recounting. Another book is Faun Brodie's No Man Knows my History. She was actually excommunicated from the church for this biography of Joseph Smith, which does have some exaggeration, but gives a great picture of Joseph Smith and the time in which he lived.
it's hard to know what to think of the simplistic statements nicene creed continues to pull from wikipedia.
the words of michael scott in reference to wikipedia were apropos at this point, "“Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.”
Maybe I am wrong, but Old Testament and Christians cannot be combined in the same sentence? This is just my thoughts, so if I am wrong correct me. I give Isaiah a pass ;)
Maybe I am wrong, but Old Testament and Christians cannot be combined in the same sentence? This is just my thoughts, so if I am wrong correct me. I give Isaiah a pass ;)
Ian, traditionally you would be correct; however, the point Ms. Shipps was making is that Mormonism holds that Christians were around from the very beginning of things. In fact, all the old testament prophets were prophesying of and preparing for Christ. Perhaps this is the way Mormons cannot be seen as traditional Christians, a moniker I am quite happy with.
I understand Brian's desire not to step on Mormon toes, but brining on a guest that downplays all the differences between Mormonism and Protestant faiths doesn't help his audience understand the divide facing the Republican party. She was not able to provide any critical insight and merely glossed over what would be of concern to religious Republicans.
I was raised Presbyterian in Arizona, and I attended Mormon services and Sunday school with my Mormon friends. My Cub Scout events were held in the Mormon Church, and my Mormon aunt took care of me when I was a preschooler. I saw first-hand how vastly different the two faiths are.
The most striking example was that my mother could not attend her sister's wedding in the Mormon Temple. I don't think any other Protestant religion has similarly exclusive rites. Your guest downplayed this restriction, but it was a serious disappointment to my mother. On a lighter note, my brother's new boss, who is Mormon, instituted a ban on alcohol at company events. His previous boss, an arch conservative, had no such scruples.
The Book of Mormon, the role of the Temple (which is not at all Judaic), the genealogical practices, dietary restrictions, and the specific relationship to Native Americans are unique to the Mormon faith. I don't suggest questioning these tenets. However, it would be useful to have a guest that could analyze how they would inform a candidate's views on feminism, race, and the separation of church and state.
A friend explained many years ago to me why some society's men have more than one wife.
More females are born than males.
Why?
My explanation and irrefutable logic is that we exist to perpetuate the human race, just as all other animals, germs, plants do.
Of course, we, secondarily, seek food, shelter and pleasure.
Then, at times, nothing makes any sense.
We can speculate the whys; but will never have THE ANSWER.
As Shakespeare wrote in one of his plays, we strut the earth for a time, then disappear forever.
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