The Brian Lehrer Show

Oh for pity's sake! They are birds. We have trees. We have crowded out most of the birds that many would prefer, and pigeons are the best able to evolve into city dwellers. Ir they are a nuisance, then WE are to blame.

If pigeons were beloved by Antonin Dvorak, then they are good enough for the likes of us.

The time and resources would be better spent elsewhere.

Release hawks as predators? Great, but what happens when the pigeons run out, and the hawks turn on us next! Think ahead people.

I say we stop feeding Simcha Felder!

Why do I have deja vu on this story? Didn't Brian or Leonard do another segment on pigeons in the past few years? IIRC, the solution is to have pigeon parks, where people who like them can go to feed them, and there won't be as many elsewhere is people don't feed them. Maybe it's Paris that des this?

The city councilman is ridiculous! I can't believe tax dollars are being wasted on this.

Even if you don't believe that pigeons are rats with wings-- and I don't- everything that attracts pigeons also attracts the real rats. AND as lovely as pigeons may be, they excrete all over everything, everywhere.

If pigeons eat our waste and weed seeds, then that is not an argument not to ban feeding pidgeons.

Let the pidgeons do their thing, and eat the weed seeds and waste.

As for the natural order, by all means, let nature take its course. But humans feeding them are not the natural order.

Uggggghhhh...leave the bloody pigeons alone...I'm a native New Yorker but I've never gotten this irrational hatred of pigeons.

$1000 fine for feeding pigeons??????????? Is this guy whacked out of his mind? So the city is going to fine the old woman on the park bench feeding the pigeon? Is this city so desperate for money that we have to regulate EVERY little thing? This guy deserves to lose his job for such a stupid proposal.

They are a menace. One built a nest outside of my window and woke me at 5am every morning 'til I took it apart. It was the most disgusting experience of my life. And I -do- think people should be fined for feeding them. They congregate where people drop the food and are noisy and disgusting. People clean up after their own dogs, it is not analagous.

Now hiring pigeon poop cleaners??? Wow, sign me up!

this guy is a moron. how do these people get elected?? the real problem in New York is the rats (among many others, of course).

Leslie Day had mentioned how pigeons, european starlings, and house sparrows are a beautiful part of our city. I would have to disagree. I too am a science teacher and know that these bird species are an invasive species in NYC. Feeding these birds causes them to out compete our native species and I would much rather see native species. I believe we can enjoy the birds by watching them and not feeding them. This will allow our native birds to come back in full effect.

Pigeons are part of living in this city. I think people shouldn't feed them, as there is plenty of refuse available for them to feed on, and feeding the pigeons also means feeding the rats, and we don't need to be feeding them. The council should focus more on cleaning up air and improving public transportation. This is not a quality of life issue. They are just birds, and while they are a pest, fining people $1000 is ridiculous, but feeding them does contribute to over-population.

can i still fee other birds in the park??

i don't feed pigions but i do feed other birds in the park.

Pigeon poop is covered in uric acid, which makes it a lot less volatile a breeding ground for bacteria (or anything elsse). 90% of what your average pigeon eats it finds for itself, rather than being fed.

At the same time, we have squirrels and rats whose feces isn't soaked in acid. We have dogs whose owners don't clean up after them. Some of the most unhealthy and bacteria-laden feces comes out of our homeless. Maybe we should have a law against feeding THEM.

I dont like pigeons anymore then anyone else, but where does the city council get off wasting our money in a useless enforcement effort.

The city council is the 3rd worst legislative body in the state (behind the state assembly and Senate). City coucil person is a 75k/year part time job. Go rename a street!

Our city has real poroblems, this is such a minor one. Give me a break and fix the housing crisis and the rockefeller laws (i know that is a state issue)

So...he's saying only manhattanites like to feed pigeons but people from the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and Staten island do not,LOL!

I agree with the earlier comment, we should stop feeding Mr. Felder

Brian, I grew up in seattle, and I wonder why so many ny'rs are so hateful about pigeons? we need the wild life around to remind us we're part of the natural world! I crave any bit of nature and wild life I can find in my day. I think ny'rs don't really hate pigeons, they just think their gross because that's what they've been told, probably by their parents. I'm a lot more concerned and "scarred" of the price of rent in this city than a few birds!!!

You should try sharing an alleyway with someone who feeds the pigeons every day. She never cleans up after them and as a result MY window screens and sills are covers in pigeon droppings and feathers. I won't even get started on the rats, or the pigeon that died in the abandoned window and rotted there for months! I've called the DOH multiple times on this. It's disgusting.

I think there are more important problems than pigeons. Plus do you think that if people stop feeding the pigeons would they stop eating.

What would happen to a person who raises pigeons.

Councilman, please go and talk to the perpetrator in front of your house and explain the problem, then go back to work.

So no we'll have some pigeon police walking around....great idea.......what's next?

"What if I just want to feed the sparrows,huh? I'm not feeding the pigeons, I'm feeding the sparrows...the pigeons juts keep getting in the way!"

This man is a bloody fool.

Not only that, I have to say my fellow NY'rs are wimps then it comes to animals, I've never seen so many people afraid of dogs, birds and rats!!! We should be embarrassed. Humanity can not eradicate nature and expect to continue life.

Rose,

I agree. I say stop feeding the landlords and real estate agents!

Give the pigeons a break! They are not hurting anyone. And saying their poop is dirty....i see more human feces than bird. Tell people to stop being disgusting slobs...the birds probably think we are an overpopulated nuisence. The have been forced to adapt to city dwelling and have done a damn good job.

this is a ridiculous segment. i am on board with Steve's comment.

Pigeons ARE a nuisance. They are not pets. And their poop does destroy statues, benches and other outdoor objects. Attracting rats is a major reason to ban feeding. I'm sure other cities do something to control these pests. Let's learn from them. Owls are also good at deterring pigeons -- let's get some owls into the mix.

Question: has anyone ever seen a baby pigeon?

Tell your councilman Felder to get a life.

I'll tell you what else - animal carcases are a bigger threat to public health than animal feces. Killing pigeons in an uncontrolled, unsupervised way will create pigeon carcases on city streets.

Would Councilman Felder have fined St. Francis of Assissi $1000 for feeding the birds?

Julie - Maybe you are a menace to the pigeons! You should be fined for disrupting their nest...they were probably in NY a lot longer than you.

Why is this a concern when it pales in comparison to the thousands upon thousands of people who litter, toss their food waste and containers in the streets, on the subway platforms and on the tracks? Nearly every day I witness these things, the things that attract rats and roaches, problems far more detrimental to our health and living situations than bread crumbs for pigeons. I wish I was deputized to slap tickets on the litterbugs and total slobs that populate this city.

the issue that I hope this brings up is the other "winged rats", their owners and their DOG CRAP. it is exclusively located on sidewalks, while pigeons seem at least to more fairly distribute their crap.

TOO MANY DOGS! WHY?

during the drought periods of the summer you can get quite a collection of schmears and lame owner attempts to collect their chinese dog food byproduct off the sidewalk.

Slightly more strange and obscene - least I shoulder too much blame on the inbred mutts themselves while the problem is really the owners...

PEOPLE seem to prefer to crap exclusively in purified drinking water from the catskills.

go figure.

Thge street Pigeons w/ which we are familiar are not native to North America.

They were brought here essentailly as breakifast food.

At several historic sites [I believe there is one @ Monticello] you will find pigeon coops outside the kitchen door.

Cook gets up bright and early, reaches in and grabs a few, breaks their necks, skins and cleans them- it only takes a moment- and pops them in a fry pan...

Yummm, fresh food in an era before refrigeration.......

Erin,

I do not think that that pigeon is older than I am, nor has the species been in New York longer than humans. I have just as much right to be here as they do if not more.

Bg and Linda,

Totally agree. People litter all over the place and throw food everywhere and they're not feeding anything.

and there's dog crap everywhere as well. But no talk of $1000 fines for people who let their beloved dogs crap all over the place.

when people come along and dump a pound of old bread or such isn't that littering and isn't there already fine for that, which of course like many laws is not enforced?

Julie - You just helped me make my point - they have just as much right to be here as you.

I'm a life long parrot aviculturist raising cockatoos and helping with conservation projects all over the world. Pigeons are a vital part of this city--and with vital research on local wild parrot populations that is advancing our understanding of both parrot and human cognition. Heard of the Alex Studies? Similar studies are being done with wild quaker parrots in the metro area--an "invasive species" I might add thanks to our stupidity killing off our native Carolina parakeet. These studies require pigeons to happen because the quakers won't let us get close enough to study them until they see pigeons eating the food we leave for them. Then and only then will they eat the food, come to the ground, and let us observe them well enough to record them properly.

Through this research we're gaining valuable data on parrot language and advanced cognition--without resorting to hurting wildlife. And it starts with feeding some pigeons!

In addition, these same pigeons are being predated on by a pair of peregrines. There are plenty of hawks in this city. I watch it all the time. Get out of the way of science and let the bird people do their thing.

Oh, and btw, the dove aviculturists commonly let their flocks hang out with their wild friends. your idea could mean killing someone's treasured pet!

Instead of talking about pigeons, how about we talk about problems facing humans in the city: like poverty and homelessness?

This anti-pigeon attitude has always struck me as stupid & ignorant. I have even flipped through bird books that do not include pigeons.

Perhaps we should learn to observe creatures & plants, we may just learn something rather than just being dismissive of the common place.

Same attitudes persist regarding "weeds" as if

that is a true botanical category.Also reminds me of justifications for saving certain wildlife over others, ones we deem "intelligent" or "beautiful" are worthy of life, etc.

Was Tom Lehrer's "Poisoning pigeons in the Park" Mr. Felder's campaign song? Do his

voters know about his phobias? He is

a frighteningly un-charming councilman.

After hearing your segment I asked a friend whether HE minded pigeons. He said he used to

be bothered by them, when they had raucous sex

on his windowsill every morning while he hadn't... They stopped coming by.

I love pigeons and it is one of the reasons why I live in Brooklyn.

Supporting this legislation could take us down a dangerous path -- the same path that led to the extinction of the passenger pigeon.

Philosopher Peter Singer wrote in _Animal Liberation_:

"[A]ny attempt to change ecological systems on a large scale is going to do far more harm than good. For that reason, if for no other, it is true to say that, except in a few very limited cases, we cannot and should not try to police all of nature. We do enough if we eliminate our own unnecessary killing and cruelty toward other animals."

Ironically, humans imported pigeons from Europe partly to eat horse manure on city streets. Now Felder wants to eliminate them because of their droppings! So as the self-appointed police of nature, Felder is proposing to punish pigeons for the actions of our ancestors.

It's too bad that Councilman Felder's six-year old daughter hates pigeons. I used to be an elementary school teacher. Almost all children I know are naturally inquisitive about animals and like them -- unless they are unfortunate enough to live in a family who condones or advocates for the hatred of animals or a particular species. There is so much that children can learn about nature from watching birds. It's a shame her family has deprived her of this joy.

There will be a press conference and rally on the steps of City Hall on Friday, November 30 from noon - 1 pm. You will have an opportunity to challenge and oppose Councilman Felder's proposal by giving your comments to the press. Please bring banners and signs indicating your support to continue to feed pigeons and all birds. Today pigeons -- tomorrow squirrels, starling, bluejays and then trees. If you care about justice for wildlife, please attend and let your voice be heard. Quinn and Felder's voices must not be overshadowed by bird lovers. They are elected officials, and are chosen by the people. They should do what the people want, and not what they want to do.

City Hall is on Duane Street between Chambers and Vesey Streets. If you get off at Brooklyn Bridge, City Hall or Fulton Street you will be there.

Stop the lies and misconceptions about pigeons who saved millions of lives during two world wars and are now treated with indignity and disrespect by our elected officials. They were elected and can be unelected as well. They work for us and not vice versa.

Show your support for justice and pigeons. Pigeons are counting on you.

I wrote a detailed critique of Council Member Felder's report, on which he is basing his proposed law and recommendations. My critique is available here:

http://www.enidcrow.com/pigeonpeoplefeldercritique.htm

Felder's report heavily relies on a 1994 USDA pamphlet and secondary source material. Basing public policy on a 13-year old USDA pamphlet is like basing public health policy on a Reagan-era pamphlet on AIDS. Since 1994, studies published in scientific journals and cited by the CDC refute the Council Member's claims about health risks. As my critique shows, the Council Member also misconstrues animal protection law and statements made by animal related organizations.

I am a government attorney and I regularly advise on ethics issues and proposed legislation. In my experience, I've never seen an ethical violation as egregious as this: using a government position to scare people about a false health risk and proposing to starve a sentient species, restrict its movement, and kill it based on purposely distorted data.

This is so idiotic! Why would we bother stop getting rid of pigeons? Why don't we get rid of House Swallows or European Starlings, too?

Oh, that's right. They're -beautiful-, they're not a -menace-. Birds like pigeons, house swallows and european starlings are all hurting other birds by forcing them out of nesting areas and beating them for food! Who's to blame? WE are. -We- brought them here. So, why are we making such a big fuss about a problem we brought on to ourselves?

The pigeons aren't doing any harm -- aside from to other birds. Neither are rats. This is a pointless debate -- of -course- we shouldn't get rid of the pigeons, or any other birds for that case. If we get rid of them, we should just get rid of ourselves -- we're the ones who number in the billions. Besides insects, almost no population meets ours. Why don't we just stop feeding us?

Pigeons are beneficial to the urban environment because their foraging removes food that people throw everywhere that the Sanitation Department could not possibly reach, and thus keeps the rodent population under control.

If there were a health risk from pigeons we would all be dead by now. Has there ever been an epidemic among the people who raise them? No.

Mr. Felder, in the unlikely event that he had an ancestor who fought in the trenches during WWI or was also a soldier during WWII, may very well owe his life to a pigeon because they voluntarily remained to work with the soldiers during combat rather than fly away to relax safely in a pleasant park which was always an option, and many pigeons died alone on the battlefields. There are memorials for those birds in both France and Belgium. Many of them received medals, and General Pershing was present to honor the little pigeon "Cher Ami" (who was awarded the Croix de Gueere) when he sailed from France back to the U.S. He died from his wounds within a year, and his remains may be seen at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, D.C.

I'm a New York based writer and photographer.

In protest of the proposed anti-pigeon feeding ban, I've dug up

a photograph of a pigeon "bagel brunch" that I'd snapped five years ago.

I think that the photograph is quite timely!

You can view this print online at: http://www.cafepress.com/writer.

fuck pigeons there retarded they should all be stoped!!!!