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The Brian Lehrer Show
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Thursday, August 30, 2007
New York Times sports columnist William C. Rhoden joins us every Thursday in August to talk sports.
His book Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete is available for purchase at Amazon.com
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Comments
after listening to him speak lst week on this show, I am really surprised he is invited back! (He defended Mr. Vick and his dog torturing/murdering!)
Team USA (men's senior intl.' basketball team) looked great (playing like a team and playing defense!) at the FIBA qualifying tournament. Does Mr. Rhoden think this unit is good enough to take the gold next year at the Olympics?
OH COME ON! Found Jesus? More like "hallelujah, where's my paycheck!"
Give it a rest. Mr. Vick is a fool.
Yes, he did defend Vick by saying he's being dealt a bad deal and that football will loose one of it's best players. Baloney he's an evil sick person and that others to it doesn't excuse him doing it. Anyone who does it is a sick criminal mind.
I can't believe Rhoden has been asked back on the show. Rhoden just compared his own suffering listening to Imus's jokes, to the suffering of dogs that are tortured and murdered. That is possibly the most appallingly ignorant thing I have ever heard. Rhoden is an embarassment to the NYTimes and to WNYC.
This comment was removed because it was deemed uncivil in violation of our comment guidelines.
here we go again....."vick should not serve any time"
what? you have got to be kidding me. this criminal should ABSOLUTELY serve time. he is a sadist.
get this guy off this station....at least until he gains some perspective.
hey Bill-
is EVERYTHING about race??? what if Mike Vick was white- would you be defending him?? when you say that "some people" feel differently about dogs, is that code for the fact that Blacks don't respect dogs as much as whites.
I guarantee that an "average" person would do time in the same circumstance.
This guy has got to get over playing the race card. A man abused many many dogs and then admitted to it.
This is a joke and not to mention, totally ANNOYING to listen to.
There seems to be no consequences for anyone that can make someone else lots of money. Vick is a tool of the NFL and they will conveniently look the other way. "Redemption" isn't automatic from being caught. I'm sick of the celebrity "oops I'm caught so now I'm sorry". Hiding behind religion is dispicable and the Vick incident is nowhere near the Imus or other cited examples. Words are not tourture and killing.
Mr. Rhoden's heartlessness is unbelievable. He suggests that Vick "shouldnt go to jail"!?!?!?!?!?!?
No word, no matter how hateful (Imus) even slightly compares to what Vick did to those animals. This justifies my hatred of sports so much more.
Yeah women's bball is farrrrrr more superior! More PASSING, CUTTING, James Naismith would be proud!
I love animals but we have to understand some people grow up surrounded by these things and to them, it isn't wrong. They've become sensitized to it just as a soldier can kill innocent woman and children in war. What he did was horrible and wrong, but he has realized what he did was wrong and is trying to redeem himself. Time will tell how he adjusts. He who doesn't sin cast the first stone. I believe in redemption for all. Calling Rhoden all these names is pretty childish. Debate what he says, lets not revisit our kindergarten years people. We are adults who are suppose to be rational.
Good, lord. This guy's defense of Vick is so blatantly dishonest. How do compare Vick to "some guy in the Bronx who gets a slap on the wrist"? If that guy in the Bronx has organized and hosted all that Vick ADMITTED to organizing and hosting he'd get more than a slap on the wrist.
And calling having to listen to Imus "cruel and unusual punishment." Give us all a break. Grow a spine, thicken your skin, and repeat after me: "sicks and stone." Vick KILLED innocent animals and reveled in it. Get some perspective.
Vick needs a "time out" and a "slap in the face"? Is he 5 years old? Why do you have this guy on the show...I can hear this trash from any idiot on the train, but I don't expect it from your show. Rhoden can only sees things in one way...it has nothing to do with right & wrong, it has everything to do with Vick being singled out because he's black.
Men's tennis is 'serve and run up to net'... Brian have you watched Federer or Nadal play recently?
I've followed tennis since 1974 and the serve issue was a factor in the early 90s, but things have changed.
Pardon the spelling and grammatical errors. I was multitasking in a fury.
I am surprised to hear William Rhoden diss the New York Liberty. What good does this do. It just hurts a wonderful sport that is enjoyed during the season by up to 10000 people per night. It is watched on TV to the extent that women's basketball has a contract with ESPN/ABC for next year.
I hate to think what he might say about our wonderful US WOmen's Soccer team that will play in the world cup in China next month--and likely win.
Any comment on the emerging soccer scene in America.
Women's tennis is more popular than the WMBA because of simple asthetics. Tennis is a more flattering sport for the female form. The motions and movements of tennis comliment the female form more than basketball's.
I suggest you dump Rhoden and get Goerge Vecsey a real sports writing mensch.
Yes he defended him because White People don't like when Black People do something in their personal lives that THEY find reprehensible so it becomes a license to vilify BLACKS ONLY. Turn on 66AM for your proof. WHITE ATHLETES get a pass, because it's not as appetizing to ream them, hang them, etc. over remarks, personal actions. If BLACKS grew up in the South where foaming at the mouth dogs were sic'd on them, maybe it's not the same thing as White Bread Sally and her Mommy shopping for a puppy at the local mall and bringing her home with a pink ribbon tied around her ears. But her brother upstairs, IS allowed to watch TV where black men rip each other to shreds on any playing field, because that is NICE entertainment for CIVIL WHITE PEOPLE. And that's the difference. You want to lock Vick up, fine. Don't MAKE BELIEVE that the impetus behind all the professional villification has NO roots in racism, because if you deny that, you're the biggest racist of them all. Proof? The comments above that don't want their white, yuppie airwaves tainted with his scent, because he dared to say there might just be the tiniest tad bit of RACISM in this equation. Not only does that make you a Racist, worse, it makes you not too smart...
Mr. Rhoden may simply be the worst interview Brian has ever done. Separate from Mr. Rhoden's pathetically simplistic, inarticulate manner of speaking, his brazen disregard for Mr. Vick's crime is sickening and it is Brian's fault for not taking Mr. Rhoden to task.
One has to only wonder how Mr. Rhoden manages to maintain a job writing at the NY Times....
I'm listening to you discuss the ticket prices for the US Open, and I agree that they're prohibitively expensive (I'm a grad student). But last weekend I watched James Blake and Mardy Fish compete in the finals of the Pilot Pen tournament in New Haven - one of the US Open series, leading up to the Open - and the ticket prices were $45 - much more reasonable, and I saw a marquee player in a final. I think it's a bit much to paint all of tennis as elitist.
To the person who asked if everything is about race - yes, yes it is, insofar as the "race card" is *always* in play. There is no such thing as colorblindness in our society; one's race is always taken into account, subtly or overtly, in any interaction or situation. It's inescapable, and thus, it's as much in play in the Michael Vick situation as in any other.
Also, whenever I hear any commentary on the Michael Vick case, I wonder about why so many athletes who are accused or even proven to have abused their wives, girlfriends, or other women have not been tarred and feathered as much as Michael Vick has been for abusing dogs. Not to excuse the latter, but where's the moral outrage about violence against women?
Really though, I came here to respond to Rhoden's comments about the WNBA. His judgment of the sport as simply sub-par is entirely subjective. Just like race and racism are always in play, so is sexism. Women's basketball is limited by sexism - the sexism that determines how much (or, as it were, how little) money is put into the game. I guarantee that if sexism were less prevalent and women's basketball got as much money poured into it as the NBA, folks would start thinking that it was really exciting, too. To impute that the women who play in the WNBA are lesser athletes than the incredibly overpaid NBA players is insulting, biased, and inaccurate. Different, yes - but not lesser.
Imus tortured Rhoden? Please, what a stretch.
What happened to freedom of speech?
Vick broke the law, and he admitted it. He should go to jail. He tortured and killed defenseless animals. He is a sadist and should be committed to a psych ward. He is psychotic.
Why does this journalist makes excuses for African Americans when they clearly break the law?
He should not be on the air, he is offensive and a hypocrite.
It's a shame that Mr. Rhoden speaks so unfavorably about WNBA women's basketball as compared to men's NBA. What he fails to mention is that the women play pure basketball, without all the razzle dazzle, temperamental outbursts, and "star" performances of the men.
Please don't have this guy back. What is his logic - historically African Americans have suffered so they have a license to commit cruelty to animals? The former is indisputable but the latter is not. Maybe even kinda racist.
He maintains a job at the Times because he is a fine writer and he had many good insights on the segments with Bryan. You probably prefer more modal tones like Sunday mornings with waspy Liann and the puzzle guy for your latte. Sorry, this is Thursday morning honey, and this is NYC. Perk up your ears to the rhythm of a black man talking.
We live in such an interesting society today. We are such vengeful people. Theres so much rage and although what Vick did was terrible, wouldn't it be more productive to talk about solutions to rehabilitate him? I am an Asian American and grew up in an urban neighborhood. A lot of my friends participated in these sort of abusive behavior to their dogs in dog fights. I was appalled. I lived in the nicer part of town but this was recreation to them in the projects. This is their mentality. This is how they grow up. He didn't show compassion for these dogs at the time, but he seems to realize how horrible his acts were. We can show him compassion and support also. To keep him off this path. Isn't this the beauty of human nature than calling him names and being vengeful?
Even taking unspeakable history into account on the race card, and carrying its shame (slavery, lynchings, bigotry, ku klux klan, jim crow, all of it.) - and persistent class inequities, (i do get it that OJ did get "white man's justice," being able to pay for it until the civil suits) - does this mean Vick is not accountable for torturing and killing sentient beings for six years and we're supposed to "put htis in perspective?" give him a pass?
This guy is obviously not very smart - defending Vick on race lines with some vague reference to police German shepherds in the civil-rights era is one of the stupidest things I have heard on this show. I hope he is not invited back in the future.
I assume that you didn't take any calls because you knew it would be a blood bath. It would have been nice to counter Rhoden's ridiculous comments. He has used everything he can to defend Vick and even tried to say that ball boys at the US Open are treated worse than Vick's dogs (you have to listen carefully, but he does try to sneak that in). Please remove him from the guest list going forward, he's a disgrace to the show.
if you don't like what he is saying, you don't have to listen you know. I think you want to listen though so if he came back on the show, would you really not listen to the show to all those who say not to invite him back? As Herisse said, he offers different insights and is actually a good writer. I read his columns and the way we speak and write can be completely different. Do you really want to listen to someone who believes everything you do? I don't agree with a lot of things he says but I respect his commentary and his ability to spark debate.
Imus tortured Rhoden because the media who has NO sense of ironly could not see that Imus, who uses "rap words" in irony (like calling his own wife "the shopping ho), do not see that a 72 year old man saying nappy and ho, which is in all the current lyrics is IRONIC and NOT premeditated racism. Think about it. Your Dad is at the Thanksgiving table and he says "Yo What UP" You believe that in the moment he is actually make a comment about blacks in any way shape or form? No, whites like to imitate the way blacks talk because it is funny to them. The worst thing you can accuse Imus of is not being funny. He and his cohorts used "rap language" every day of the week. The guy he's being replaced with, Steve Carton, did worse: he had Chinese guy on and yelled "Ching chong ching chong -- See the NY Observer -- but CBS thinks this is a BETTER replacement and you won't hear a word out of Fatty Blackso about it.
Oh you do get White Man's Justice Chestine? and you DO think OJ is a different sort of case......... please. Chestine.
Who cares if he grew up with dog fighting? If that's what he's used to? Dog fighting is against the law. Vic knew it and everyone else who fights dogs knows it because last time I checked ticket master, I couldn't purchase a ticket to go see a dog fight. It's the same with beating your wife or kids, you hide it because you know you'll be thrown in the clink if you get caught.
People need to stop making excuses and just own up to their crimes and be responsible for themselves.
Barbie, "pure basketball"??? The WNBA is a bore. That's why only little girls are there, next to the huge Lesbian section.
Hey Mike: You seem to be a big U.S. Open fan and we love your ballboy reference. So, for our segment on crowdsourcing, please count the amount of black ballboys on the Flushing courts. Then post them and we'll do a statistical analysis of where they live and how many pitbulls they own. Oogah.
Brian, keep bringing guests who instigate debate. We promise not all of us are so simple minded. It's what makes your show the best on the internet and the airwaves. It also sparks inter-office debates which is what a talk show should do.
ha ha ha! Funny!
"Barbie, "pure basketball"??? The WNBA is a bore. That's why only little girls are there, next to the huge Lesbian section."
Yes Brian, keep on bringing these guests on. It's better than all things white, uhhhh considered.
Rhoden equated the pain sufferred by Vick's dogs to the pain he (Rhoden) sufferred listening to Don Imus' comments.
Simple test Mr Rhoden: In Room A you will be forced to listen to Don Imus for 24 hours making insulting comments. In Room B you can dunked in water and electrocuted. Which do you choose?
And, in response to Comment #34 above, I completely agree that a diversity of opinions on hot topics like the Vick case is essential. However, Mr. Rhoden is simply not the person to make the counterargument. His comments were unintelligent, uninformed and displayed a lack of logic. He is pathetic and the NY Times should be embarrassed for having him as a columnist.
Sarah, no, darling you can't buy Dog Fighting Tickets from Ticketmaster. Only NFL tickets.
Why is this a race issue again? He tortured many dogs and took a very big role in helping more to die horrible deaths and then made a ton of money on it. Black, white, pink, it does not matter. Ignorance means nothing to the law, nor does ones history of "being chased by foaming at the mouth dogs". How is this even a debate!?!
Joh, not sure what you are referencing. Do you understand my comment?
Mike, I think he UNDERSTANDS your comment, but you might not get his......
ok, so what is he talking about?
brian--
You do a serous disservice to wnyc listener/members by giving a platform to a racist like Rhoden, allowing him to espouse his racist agenda, and not challenging him. Why didn't you refute Rhoden's claim that Vick should be treated differently by the law because he is a black man?
And why didn't you challenge Rhoden's argument that Vick should not be treated any differently than anyone brought in Bronx court for involvement in a dog fight, which pretends there is no distinction between funding a large dog torturing operation for six years as against having low level involvement.
And why did you let Rhoden wriggle away from answering the listener comments emphasizing the vast difference between insulting speech and physical torture?
Your willingness to allow Rhoden to promote viciously deceitful arguments without pointing out how wrong they are strikes me as immoral and a betrayal of your listeners. Would you please explain yourself on this?
On the affirmative side, I agree completely with your animadversion that the NFL is playing down the dog torturing because it cuts too close to the vicious enterprise that it runs, which maims no end of ignorant young men like Vick both physically and psychologically, and contributes significantly to the wholesale brutalization of our culture. That's a subject I'd like to see your program address.
mg duke
___________________________________________________________
To argue that the perception of cruelty is subjective and depends on your personal prism is soft-headed and intellectually dishonest.
Deriving pleasure or profit in the pain, suffering and death of an animal is a rephensible crime punishable by much more than the "slap in the face" Mr. Rhoden suggests is appropriate.
Sorry about the typo. It is reprehensible.
Brian, you have a wonderful show but I have to tell you that you disappoint when you allow William Rhoden to make these kinds of statements relatively unchallenged. It would be one thing if Mr. Rhoden's views were thought-provoking in some way, but they were not. They were pathetic -- shocking and sickening. And I believe you were as shocked as we all were, Brian? I really cannot beleive that an educated person, a respected NY Times columnnist no less, can defend the killing and torturing of dogs in such a cavalier manner. I'm sorry -- his remarks and moral comparisons bordered on infantile.
I agree that having controversial guests is a good thing, but this guest was just flat out wrong and the worst part about it was that the producers and Brian didn't take any calls to debate the issue. If controversial guest are booked, you should give enough time for people to rebut.
Rhoden's arrogant and blithe dismissal of the seriousness of the crime which Vick pleaded guilty to is astounding. The man clearly has an agenda and is blind to whatever might interfere with that agenda. Having him on the show is an insult to the intelligence of your listeners, Brian. We deserve better!
actually, Brian, maybe this is a good guest and an opportunity to look through different eyes, turning a light on things i know little about. The only place I ever saw animals used for gambling was from a distance in a little town on the Pacific coast of Ecuador 20 years ago - chicken fights. I had no idea that dogfighting is an accepted part of a different culture from mine, no matter what i think - and to think of the impact on any culture of a thing like colonialism, or slavery, or a culture like our majority culture that was dotted with active chapters of the ku klux klan (and still could be for all we know) which drowned and lynched peaple, in my lifetime, and the majority sees none of this in judging michael vick - not that he is blameless or that there is anything acceptable about torturing animals, building a business out of it for six years - but there IS a larger context we do sweep under the rug - or not know about - it's no justification, just a context of shame created by the larger culture -
one sadly telling aspect of this thread is that nearly every comment (excluding WC) supporting Rhoden or Vick emphasizes the color of a person's skin, whereas every comment criticizing Rhoden and Vick sticks to the content of a person's character.
MLK jr taught that racists come in all colors. Vick, Rhoden, and their supporters are a disease of black culture, just as Lester Maddus and "Bull" Conners rwere a disease of white culture, a disease that the society as a whole had to cure,by force where necessary.
Dog fighting is not a part of decent black culture. I heard a cogent expose on bbc this morning about the prevalence of dog-fighting rings in Europe. Dog fighting is apparently engaged in by the vicious, sadistic scum of all races.
Vick could find redemption, I believe, by devoting all his remaining energies and resources to exposing and destroying the dog fighting culture in America.
Amen to JM's comment! I sat with my mouth agape listening to Rhoden stammer through that segment - attempting to make the argument that what? Blacks are within their rights to torture & execute dogs today because authorities in the south used or misused police dogs against civil rights demonstrators 40 years ago? Is this guy serious?? Sane??
I too listened to the Rhoden segment and I am dumbfounded that so many people think Rhoden was saying it is ok for blacks to torture and execute dogs because dogs were used to torture and damage blacks in the South during the civil rights marches.
Rhoden's point was that many blacks don't view dogs in the same light as many whites. Blacks are more outraged by injustces done to human beings than to animals.
For many blacks the outrage showed Vick should more properly be directed to the people responsible for the horrendous desth and destruction of the hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq.
Vick should obviously pay his dues for what he did, but bring some perpective to the situation.
And his dues are no prison time...just a slap in the face?
What we forget in all of this discussion about the Vick conundrum, beside the heinous actions against sentient beings, the illegality of dog fighting and the man himself pleading guilty to all charges is the other aspect – GAMBLING- a huge No-No in professional sports. I just have one thing to say to Mr. Rhoden- Remember PETE ROSE, a white man, barred from major league baseball FOR LIFE and without a prayer of getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame even after having many all time major league records (career hits 4256). So get a clue, it is NOT about race, it is about ETHICS.
Look at all these comments! Brian, you must do a follow-up or at least mention the furor caused by the comments of this guest.
Keep up the good work...
This thread is closed.
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