On Demand
Crackdown on Tinted Windows
Thursday, August 02, 2007
New York City Public Advocate Betsy Gotbaum discusses a new legislative effort to ban illegally-tinted windows in an effort to protect police officers and curb terrorist activity.
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Comments
A lot of people who live in dangerous neighborhoods feel that they need tinted windows to protect themselves from crime. When a young woman drives home from work at 3 AM, through a dangerous neighborhood, she feels safer when potential criminals cannot tell that she is a lone in the car.
Also, your guest's assumption that police officers and public officials are beyond suspicion of committing unethical or illegal acts is profoundly naive and reflects her status position in society.
that vehicle was a bmw suv and was stolen from a dealership.what about cars from the lot?
There are a range of window tints from light gray to dark as night. Surely, we can preserve peoples' rights to protect themselves from sun and have a little privacy, but still allow activity in the car to remain transparent to police and other authorities. Other states have such rules, such as Virgina--tints can only be so dark, but are legal.
I think tinted windows add to the aggression level on the street. Because I don't know where that person is looking, I start to feel watched. That makes me angry and stressed, which makes it more likely that I will interact in a stressful way with that person.
(I also think dark sunglasses do this, to a lesser degree).
Tinted windows kill the little visual connections that make public space public. E.g. somebody cuts me off, and I spend the next half hour just hating him. He may have been legitimately sorry, but he had no way to communicate that to me because we couldn't see each other equally.
The police should NEVER have tinted windows. They foster enough resentment by their presence just as it is, when we can see them.
The anti-terror argument is ludicrous -- transparency can only go so far anyway. To maintain the quality of public life and maintaining some level of respect for public space would be a better argument.
this is too much. her time would be much better spent elsewhere on more pressing issues. i would think this is an April fools joke, except it's August...
The laws in sunny states like Florida allow you to have a tinted window for practical reasons (ie heat reduction and A/C conservation) up to certain extent where it becomes a visual liability to the driver.
This thought that tinted windows prevents surveillance is like saying I can't draw curtains in my house or wear too many pockets on my clothing because I could be plotting something in one of my hidden compartments. Back off.
Another "who cares" story. We should really be checking out the extremely loud sound systems that prevent drivers from hearing any outside sounds...LIKE HORNS to prevent accidents!
Police by the nature of their jobs take their jobs in their hands. Being a police officer is a dangerous job and you put your life on the line when you into it and you know that. Yes, it's horrible when a cop gets killed or seriously injured, no one denies that, but those are the risks one takes in law enforcement.
If every tool that the terrorists use should be outlawed, why not outlaw guns, knives, telphones, etc.
This is ridiculous and is part of the campaign of fear that the Bush administration is so keen on using for political purposes.
If the cars that are allowed to tint the cars are the cop cars and the undercover cop cars, wouldn't that make undercover cops pretty obvious? Shouldn't such rules be based on safety? I can see heavily tinted windows would make things hard to see..
In California, they don't allow tinted windows over front windows, like the driver side windows. I do believe they allow rear windows to be tinted. It was a bit surprising when I moved here to see it allowed on driver windows when I moved here a few years ago.
Right after 9/11, all you needed to go anywhere in Manhattan (including the wrong way on 1-way streets) was a black SUV, tinted windows, and a bubble gum machine on the roof. I suspect nothing has changed. I also suspect that the terrorists are well aware.
The biggest problem with tinted windows is that they reduce visibility of surroundings from inside the car, especially at night, reducing safety for the general public.
You have to be a pretty incompetent terrorist to use tinted windows -might as well carry a flashing neon sign that says: BAD GUY HERE.
ps:
You know you can have a lighter on a plane again, right?
Steven -- your house can't run me over, cut me off, sit illegally in front of MY house for ten hours idling, throbbing with angry music... your house is private space. Your car is something else (I'm not sure what, I'm just saying I think there's a difference).
I think our Public Advocate should be focused on more concrete, tangible ways to protect the public and police than cracking down on tinted windows. Maybe the focus should be getting guns out of the hands of criminals, not car accessories.
This is ridiculous. The obvious solution to the traffic stop problem is for the police procedure to include the that the driver be instructed to roll down their windows before the police approach. I have a handicapped sister who drives and keeps dark tint to avoid others from knowing she is handicapped and possibly taking advantage. Both of my brothers are cops and agree that this is legitimate.
I think this might be a waste of time and energy given the fact this will give rise to the instant tinted windows (example a cop car is turning the corner, and click the tinted windows vanish!)
In regards to side mirrors: Thank god they're not actually required! I grew up in Inwood in one of the few remaining houses in Manhattan with a full driveway and garage. As you'd imagine, the long thin driveway with high walls on either side is really hard to get in and out of, but it would be impossible if our car had mirrors. It's hard to find cars created like this now, but they exist!
I'd love to continue this conversation but I have business back on planet Earth. NYC has no more pressing problems than this?
Tinted windows make it difficult to see other drivers when trying to determine their intentions in many instances. Just one for example: at intersections with stop signs, it helps to be able to see the other drivers eyes to know if you are being seen by that driver.
We must also consider that people might be breaking the law inside their houses. We need to outlaw curtains and blinds so that the police can look into houses and apartments as well as cars to make sure that no laws are being broken.
Of course, Betsy wants exceptions...rich people in black cars and limos will be permitted to keep their tinted windows. This is because we all know that rich people never break the law.
Seriously...this is what our Public Advocate is up to? We coulda had Norman Siegal. Well, the people have spoken...and now the people must suffer...!
Gotbaum just used the terrorism card. darn
-- she should be ashamed of herself
I don't believe that the tinted windows had anything to do with the unfortunate death of Officer Timoshenko. Considering it happened in the dark of night, nothing could have been seen in the cab of this suv with or without tinting.
Akiva brings up a good point. However, the percentage of New Yorkers who are women driving home alone at 3:00 in the morning in a bad neighborhood would probably be quite low.
I think that the comfort levels people have been discussing are rather childish considering people in Florida, Arizona, Texas, and other southern states with much hotter climates have to deal with much harsher conditions.
The fact is that the protection of the city's police force is much more pertinent than comfort levels. Let's face it, we aren't in a climate with an average temperature of 105 degrees in the summer so the screens for the windshield should suffice while parked. Think of how easy it is for a kidnapper to transport a victim in these cars. The terrorism argument may be going too far, however, the amount of crime that tinted windows allow deem this measure acceptable to me.
The last caller was right on, in that banning tinted windows will only call attention to undercover cop cars. Seems like Betsy Gotbaum has not thought through all the repercussions. Incidentally there are other issues that are so much more important to put your energy towards! Anyone who is a danger to police will be a danger with or without tinted windows. Please spend time on important issues of our City. This is ridiculous.
I think the problem is much more serious than you give it credit for. Something that seems extremely minor -- a reduction in our ability to see each other and communicate in small ways like gestures -- becomes really major when multiplied by several hundred moments per person per day. This kind of micro-networking or whatever you want to call it (sorry, no time to find a better term) really underpins public space in the city. To lose it is to lose a LOT.
I'm not sure what people are thinking of as more important. Taxes? Why be in the city if not to partake in public life? Tinted windows (and sound systems) kill this.
Not that I'm advocating heavy regulation, necessarily, just advocating CARING about it.
This move against tinted windows is another paranoid restriction of life in the US and is of minimal utility. We are beginning to see terrorists everywhere and doing everything.
In our fear, we are slowly placing ourselves in a giant jail with the police as the jailers.
Listened to a bit as I drove into the company parking lot. Counted cars on my way in. Fully half of a line of 25 cars had tinted rear-windows - tinted so dark that I could not see inside the car. A lot of potential terrorists in corporate parking lots in New Jersey!
I think we should ban cars from New Jersey from entering Manhattan, too. I'm sure we'll prevent a lot of terrorism, gun-running, narcotics-running, along with congestion, pollution and accidents.
Overall this regulation is so ridiculous it is enough to make one think government is stupid if not bad. What would making the sale of tinting kits in New York achieve? Buy them on the Internet!
I have tinted windows on my van. The drivers windows are NOT tinted. Only the window that would reveal the items I am carrying.
I am FIRMLY against tinted windows on ANY of a passenger car's windows. I cannot see the driver. I cannot see through the auto to the next vehicle and all of this contributes to an unsafe situation while driving. Interesting to me:
Nearly ALL SUV's have tinted windows, a driver who has a cellphone to his/her ear, and a general disregard for the "smaller" vehicles in the vicinity.
For the woman that called in about breast feeding. Your child should be in a safety seat while in your car. Parked or not someone could hit your vehicle. It is illegal to be riding with a baby in your lap. Too many children in this city ride without the proper protection. Women have breast fed for YEARS without tinted windows.
UV rays can be easily blocked out by those suction cup flaps and your child should have sun protection in and out of the car.
In response to Robert:
Yes police lives are on the line. Does this mean we should allow a clearly dangerous practice with very few positive purposes (in comparison to the negative) to raise the danger level for our police? Should we not provide body armor to our soldiers to lower their chances of fatality? Their job is twice as dangerous, but we don't say, "Sorry, kid, you took the job."
I've never understood the need for the public advocate, and after listening to Ms. Gotbaum I am still not sure of the need. Can it be that her position is to use the fear of terrorism to enact inane legislation that serves no interest but to make her look like she is doing something productive? She sounds like she was trained in the Bush White House that pushes any agenda by linking it to terrorism.
By the way, many criminals have committed crimes and hurt police officers from cars without tainted windows.
Why not try to do something of more consequence and importance?!
Beautiful. The mayor -- who exists to serve the public -- needs to have tinted windows to protect them from. . . the public. It is of course an even more telling comment on our security state that we citizens need to strip ourselves in order to protect the police.
A car on a public road is not private in the same way that a residence is. While it may be unfair to some, many times it is the car with tinted windows that goes flying down my street way too fast, music way too loud, and driver/occupants invisible, making them bolder in flouting the social contract.
A lot of people tint their windows for the same reason other people drive SUVs: they want to feel like they can see other people, but other people can't see them. It makes them feel powerful. An added boost to this sense of self-importance is the fact that high-level law enforcement officials and dignitaries also tint their windows. So it's just another example of the way Americans enhance their grandiosity with their cars.
B.R.W. the Supreme Court has acknowledged a resonable expectation of privacy in one's cars! Perhaps Ms. Gotbaum should read up on the laws before she continues with her busy work.
i'm sure there are other issues more pressing than this,tinted windows keep the heat out of my car and if you want a monotonous state than sell everything one color and one style, go and fight real issues......
Does this mean that vans should be outlawed, too, because "bad things" could be happening in the back that you can't see?
Also, I'd like to know if the NYPD counter-terrorism unit really thinks that tinted windows represent a legitimate threat to our city's security.
Who is left in this city to defend our civil liberties?! There are older souls turning in their graves as she spoke!
There need be compelling rationale to restrict ANY activity of us citizens.
The benefit of this proposal -- perhaps SLIGHTLY reducing the probability of an officer's death at the hands of a criminal murderer -- needs to be weighed against the CERTAIN reduction of the comfort and privacy of MILLIONS of law abiding people!! This does not balance in favor of this proposal.
More shameful even, is her built-in arrogant attitude that law enforcement serves us perfectly and faithfully AND that we citizens should automatically surrender any freedom they request. SHAME.
Further, note the exceptions for the famous or the rich -- of course Bloomberg and Paris Hilton need their "security"! Isn't this the same man who takes the subway to work?! I thought the city is safe!?
See this for what it is ...the continued erosion of your freedom.
No tinted windows??
How can I pick my nose while driving?
Next item on Betsey's plate: Clothing and the dangerous items that are carried in their pockets.
Here's what gets me.
New York State Law clearly states in section 375, 12-a, (b)
(1) the front windshield of which is composed of, covered by or treated with any material which has a light transmittance of less than seventy percent inless such materials are limited to the uppermist six inches of the windshield; or
(2) the sidewings or side windows of which on either side forwar of or adjacent to the operator"s seat are composed of., covered by or treated with any material which has a light transmittance of less than seventy percent; or
(3) if it is classifies as a station wagon, sedan, hardtop, coupe, hatchback, or convertible and any rear side window has a light transmittance of less than seventy percent
The law only allows the rear most window to be tinted if you have two side mirrors, or if you have an SUV or van.
yet I constantly see cars driving around with tint, and worse MIRRORED Tint, Front and Rear side windows. The police aren't told to check these guys out as there are other things they need to do, and the traffic cops have ZERO power to enforce anything.
Ok, tint can be fine when it's not so dark you can't see the outline of the person inside.
The problem is with really dark or mirrored tint. Are people really that shy, or is there something going on there that shouldn't be?
Brian: Maybe the reason so many more people are posting on the website is because your crowd-sourcing project introduced so many more people to the existence of your message boards and how to use them. Many probably wouldn't have tried it otherwise.
I'm a former resident of the area. Betsy Gotbaum sounds intelligent and dedicated. But this is nuts!
For starters, it's the police who shouldn't be allowed to use tinted windows except for carefully specified jobs.
No more restrictions fabricated to prevent something from happening which practically never happens, all in the name of Homeland Security (I don't trust Homeland Security, the police (don't ask!), and terrorism (so far, the political use of terrorism has done more damage than terrorism itself). No! Please!
Gottbaum's justification, claiming tinted windows allow terrorists to hide weapons, could just as well applly to banning overcoats, or those wheeled luggage we see everyone wheeling down the streets, because they can hide weapons. Why not ban pockets in general to get rid of hand-guns. Why not clothes all-together.What foolishness!
Ms Gottbaum, if we adjust our lives that much, the terrorists have won.
I love Doug's comment -- if true (which I assume it is), then this means the police are failing to protect themselves by enforcing this basic law (along with many others they overlook for whatever reason). So perhaps they're really not worried about it.
I agree with the civil liberties comments (as in, the INTENT of banning the tinting is total garbage), but I'm not sure that there's a fundamental right to drive two tons of metal around invisibly. Again, the inside of your car is not necessarily private space, is it?.
There's an argument against car alarms here that I would love to hear too.
It is amazing that the PA is supporting this effort. She does not have one piece of evidence that shows that more officers have been shot/killed from vehicles with tinted windows. Talking to a few people and reviewing a few police reports does not count. Where are the reports, the studies, or the statistics? Why make a policy when you have no facts or real data?
ok, i have to comment again on all the people screaming bloody murder about how this is ruining the American way of life and liberty.
B freaking S.
Show me where having a car is a right and not a privlidge?
Show me where the supreme court said that the right to privacy in your own car means you can block off all the outside world. Sure they meant against unreasonable search and seizures of the car.
Wow, so you can't tint your window unless you have a doctor's note saying you need the tint. You have to drive around knowing that other drivers can see you are yaking on your phone. OH THE HORRORS!! OH THE HUMANITY!! OH MY GAWD WE ARE TURNING INTO A DICTATORSHIP!!!
As for why the Mayor needs protection, hmmm... well, when you have some nut-head in the city council wishing death upon another member, what makes you think that there aren't nut-heads out there wishing death upon the mayor?
As far as people from out of state commenting, since this won't affect you, why care?
Those who will now wish to get tinted windows will just register their cars out of state!
Any terrorist or criminal will still be able to find a way around the law, and it will just be a massive inconvenience for the regular guy.
Another thing to consider is, what will be with all the existing cars with factory installed tinted windows? are we going to have the window police come knocking on our doors?
Oh wait, this will be one more thing we law abiding citizens can be fined for!
This proposal is ludicrous beyond anything in recent memory! This is big brother, or in our case big sister out of control!
Betsy, get a life and stop with this nonsense!
(Outrage,
There was an article in the NY Times this week about how the Mayor does NOT take the subway to work, he is chauffeured around by not just one but two SUVs.)
I agree that this is a huge waste of time. I also agree with the person who said that noise pollution is a much larger problem.
The "terrorist" excuse is so tired, does anyone even take it seriously anymore?
The reality of this is, this shouldn't be a reality, that is, that a public advocate can waste their time on such an insignificant issue. For those who can't think of something more important...yikes!
Exceptions are the bane of security -- has everyone forgotten that an exception got a NYC official killed when his victim walked him around security? If you're important, famous, rich, splurging (renting a limo), or on the job UNDERCOVER, you can have your windows tinted? Either it's a law for everyone or it's not a law. Public officials including the police should be examples and not exceptions – their job is to uphold the law not break it. This knee-jerk law-making is out of control and helping no one. Have you forgotten the sporadically enforced law banning hand-held cell phone use by vehicle opertors? It's commonly ignored and presents more of a danger to everyone on the road than tinted windows...
A primary question has not been asked: Shouldn't the police have different procedures - aimed at protecting their safety - when approaching a vehicle with tinted windows?
The police's ability to protect themselves should be fully explored before regulating the public. A regulation, furthermore, will not eliminate the practice. The police therefore should have procedure to follow when they are unable to assess potential danger as they approach a vehicle.
(Others have addressed the privacy issues and general needlessness of this regulation.)
Tinted windows on all cars should be illegal!
1. Before I had tinted windows, criminals on my block would break my windows and steal anything I absent-mindedly left on my seat—anything from a new pair of windshield wipers to a road atlas. This has not happened since I tinted my windows.
2. Tinted windows offer me extra protection from the sun.
3. My wife uses the tinted windows to breast-feed on a regular basis, especially when we take long trips and need to pull off the expressway and park on a random street.
4. This will not prevent transportation of dangerous materials. Won’t people simply use the trunk? Unless by “curb terrorist activity” you mean to racially profile the passengers.
5. Why not just have the police pull in front of an automobile, and approach it from that direction? Windshields are never tinted, and it would be easier to see into the auto.
george, if you see this, that's taken right out of the book Vehicle and Traffic Law of the State of New York. it's an exciting read, haha. You can pick up a copy at Barnes and Noble. Well, I know definately the one on 5th and 20th (the text book store, which for some reason doesn't show on their website). Should be able to get it from most booksellers. Alternatively, you can also go to the state website and search there. I;m not sure where they have them online. sometimes it's part of the state senate website, other times it's under the judiciary site.
What about smell pollution? The wretched stench of NYC in the summer is more assaulting than noise pollution!!
1) How come whenever the government wants to do something they cite terrorism as a reason?
I don't think terrorists have any particular affinity for tinted windows. The mayor has been watching too many movies. I am not a huge fan of tinted windows but if you don't have a dark tinted back window where I live in the bronx and you have something in your back seat (or the trunk of an SUV which has windows all around it) you WILL have your window broken.
You should do a talk on all of the useless and ridiculous "terrorism" measures this city claims (maybe a contest for the most ridiculous) that are really just ways to raise revenues (tickets for tinted windows) or spend federal funds and recoup some income tax money for police over time.
my favorites
1) that empty police car that sits on the brooklyn bridge with it's lights on and does nothing but cause traffic
2) "random" police inspections at rush hour of white trucks.
we'll teach the terrorists.... we'll make them late for work. We'll make it slightly inconvenient for them. They'll hate the city so much that they'll blow up cleveland instead.
A policeman told me that they were only pulling over unmarked trucks one day because they can't pull over all the cars, and pulling over the big rigs was too time consuming and damaging to business. i.e. lets mess with the small businesses. Do they not think that terrorists aren't smart enough to.... pack a regular car with explosives and make more than one trip into the city?
3) Police state searches of people at Atlantic Station (an arabic neighborhood). You can refuse to be searched and go to another station. Exactly what terrorist is stupid enough to say, "that's okay search my bomb filled backpack", rather than go onto a nother station?
4) terrorists like tinted windows
5) terrorists are going to hijack a plane with a toenail clipper, clearly not as pointy and dangerous as lets say my index finger, or a bottle
6) a bottle of visine eye drops is too dangerous to put on a plane.
This is totally ridiculous. If a bunch of terrorists wanted to drive around the city with guns and not be spotted (a silly argument in itself) they could just use a panel van or any number of vehicles that are built without windows. This women needs a job, plain and simple. Or at least to find a worthy cause to put all of this effort behind.
Presently no none ever pays a fine for tinted windows no matter how many times ticketed.A note from a friendly repair or autobody shop exonerates the offender while the infraction remains. This part of the law must change to effect any remedy for this dangerous problem.
Presently, no one ever pays a fine for tinted windows. A note from a friendly body shop or auto repair shop stating the tint has been removed voids any fine, regardless of the amount of times ticketed. This must change if we are to stop this dangerous practice.
Tinted windows for terrorists was one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Did the 9/11 terrorists drive cars with tinted windows? Better yet, could we see them better in the plane becasue the windows were not tinted? I have news for Betsy: Tinted windows do not kill people. Guns do. Why not spend some time on gun control?
there's a fundauental isusse here that could use more exploration: is a car interior public or private space?
(and does the answer depend on the location of the car? do you have more privacy rights in a cor in your own driveway than you do in a car on a public street?)
in response to chad harris, post 31...i'm the breastfeeding caller. I have NEVER ONCE unstrapped either of my children from their car seats to breastfeed in the car while it is moving, and have rarely breastfed in a parked car. while moving, I suspend myself over the car seat (a difficult gymnastic feat), for up to 20 minutes at a time, to breastfeed, per Dr. Sears recommendation...an arrangement that clearly compromises my own safety for the sake of my children's. I routinely breastfeed in public and can do so quite discreetly. however, hanging over a car seat while moving, in clear view of passing cars, trucks and elevated SUVs, is something I prefer to have a modicum of privacy to do. make no mistake, i've done it MANY times w/o the moderate screen provided by our LEGALLY tinted windows (as I mentioned on the show, we owned a car w/o them before we got a car that does have them). I am a working mom. I've also sat on the floor in the back of my parked minivan in the parking lot of the NY aquarium, pumping breast milk, pump hooked up to a cigarette lighter, so i could attend a daycare field trip with my older toddler and still provide pumped milk for my younger baby, who is also in daycare...because there was no other provision for me to do so (I couldn't do it on the parked bus provided to transport the kids and other parent chaperones after everyone else had disembarked...though I did ask if this might be an option, and the aquarium does not have a breastfeeding or nursing station where I could pump, so I chose to drive myself there separately, rather than miss out entirely on the trip...call me nutty, but I'd rather pump or breastfeed in my own clean, parked vehicle than in a filthy public restroom or roadside "comfort station"). This particular instance at the aquarium was undignified enough, and logistically quite challenging (to do it, I had to separate from my toddler after we arrived, pump in my car, then go searching for her scattered group in the crowds, and I missed a big part of the outing), so I must say I REALLY appreciated having tinted windows in that parking lot. Unless you've held down a full-time job, pumped milk and breastfed exclusively, for a full year for each of your children (as recommended by the american academy of pediatrics) i think you have a heckuva lot of nerve to presume to dictate how it should be done. [you are male, are you not, CHAD???] it requires ENORMOUS effort and sacrifice. SHAME ON YOU!!! an apology would be greatly appreciated.
addendum to Chad, post 31...my very fair-skinned children are ALWAYS slathered with 30+ SPF non-chemical sunblock, too, but if you know anything about sunblocks, that is not sufficient, especially when they are inclined to perspire in their hot car seats. even with air conditioning and cotton seat covers, car seats do not breathe and kids perspire. it is really nice, for their comfort, to have the additional cooling UV-protection of LEGALLY tinted windows, which was another big part of the reason I insisted we get that option on the car. but hey, thanks for your advice.
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