jgarbuz wrote,
"Jews are a tribe, and Israel is Jewish tribal land. Otherwise, the whole so-called "Jewish religion"is utterly pointless from Abraham through Moses through King David through all the kings and heroes of Israel, all the way through Theodore Herzl."

This statement is full of problems.

Some responses:

1.) Yet again, you conflate _tribal_, _theological_ and _historical_ arguments.

2.) As I've pointed-out in previous comments, Zionism is actually a _perversion_ of Torah Judaism -- one that has always been rejected by a consensus of the leading Torah sages. (The same G-d who gave us the land exiled us from it and forbade us from re-establishing sovereignty over it before the Messiah arrives).

I realize that you do not appear interested in even _understanding_, let alone _accepting_, this theological position, and debating it would quickly become off-topic and esoteric here.

(Those who are interested, however, may find this site of interest:
truetorahjews.org )

3.) I must note, however, what seems to me like a complete paradox I have found in your posts:

On one hand, you continually invoke the _Bible_ and _religion_ in support of your position that (Zionist) Jews should and must have complete sovereignty over the entire Land of Israel.

Yet, I have also seen posts made by you in which you:
a) stated that you do not even have a solid belief in G-d
and,
b) asserted that religion has been supplanted by science

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

4.) Regarding your assertion that without Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel, Judaism is "pointless" --or not even _Judaism_, as it seems you have implied by saying, "the whole so-called "Jewish religion"", I must add the following to the points I have already made above:

What you are saying here, above anything else, is that Judaism is merely a _means_ toward one or more ends. To a believer, however, nothing could be farther from the truth. We consider Judaism to be the _embodiment of Truth_ itself; not merely _an_ end unto itself, but _the_ very purpose of existence, etc.

Google and Read the dissenting report of Dr. Arnon Groiss who was one of the committee members. He cites many examples of cherry picking the facts against Israel. Basically this report whitewashes many of the vitriolic screeds against Jews and Israel in the Palestinian textbooks. The report
in

For example:

"Your enemies killed your children, split open your women's bellies..." was rejected because it did not mention Jews or Israelis and was actually written in the early 20th century. Its appearance in a Palestinian textbook of today with its obviously serious consequences did not change that decision. Similarly, a piece talking of "invading snakes" was also discarded since no Jews or Israelis were mentioned there, as if someone else was intended, who is not involved in the conflict. "

Read the dissenting opinion

An earlier poster mentioned Chabad-Lubavitch.

I must point-out, sadly, that today's Chabad-Lubavitch movement has strayed quite far from their roots as a venerable branch of the Hasidic movement within Orthodox Judaism.

The most well-known and obvious example of this is the Messianic theology and antics of today's Chabad-Lubavitch, in which they declare their late leader, Rabbi Menachem M. Schnnerson to be the Messiah ("Moshiach"). This alone places the movement outside of the confines of normative Torah Judaism (rejection of the idea of a "second coming" is one of the many fundamental differences that distinguish _Judaism_ from _Christianity_).

But there are many other problems, more subtle and nuanced, with the contemporary Chabad-Lubavitch movement as well.

Included in these are their positions that relate to Zionism, especially their support for the most intransigent nationalist/settler elements.

Ironically, one of the past Chabad-Lubavitch leaders, Rabbi Shalom Ber Schneersohn (known as "The Rebbe Rashab") was among the most vehement opponents of Zionism of his day.

(And not merely of _secular_ Zionism; R' S.B.R. wrote explicitly that _even if_ the Zionists were all devoutly observant and righteous Jews, it would _still_ be forbidden to join or support them.)

You can read some his statements here:
http://www.truetorahjews.org/rashab )

It was actually Rabbi Shalom Ber Schneerson-- the vehement ANTI-ZIONIST-- and the many like-minded rabbis both of his time and who followed who are well within Torah Judaism. (And _not_ today's Chabad-Lubavitch, etc.)

The distorted impression that has been created today notwithstanding.

K Covey --
If Judea has been the homeland of Jews for 2500 years, how is that an "illegal occupation?"

"Ultra-Orthodox" is a highly problematic and generally misleading term.

The media uses it quite indiscriminately, labeling everyone from the most fanatic and violent "religious-ZIONIST" settlers, to the most zealously ANTI-ZIONIST Orthodox Jews (such as Neturei Karta), under the same "Ultra-Orthodox" label.

The other problem with the term "Ultra-Orthodox" goes beyond the scope of the topic at hand but I will just summarize briefly.

"Ultra-Orthodox" is used (usually with at least a hint of pejorative intent) to label any Orthodox Jews who are to the right (theologically/ in terms of level of observance) of "Modern-Orthodox". This sets _"Modern-Orthodox"_ as the standard of normative halakhic Judaism, against which others are compared. Such an assertion is, at _best_, highly _subjective_ and contentious-- certainly not one that can be made by anyone claiming objectivity.

Remember US Senator Robert F. Kennedy - assassinated by a "palestinian" in 1968.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy

To blacksocialist

Who says Blacks have to have a whole continent? Jews are a tribe, and Israel is Jewish tribal land. Otherwise, the whole so-called "Jewish religion"is utterly pointless from Abraham through Moses through King David through all the kings and heroes of Israel, all the way through Theodore Herzl. Of course Jews have to have their land! it is ABSURD to even think otherwise!

K Covey,

If you are honestly against occupation, assuming that you are not a Native American, please repatriate yourself to your ancestral home.

No Double Standards.

@black socialist from bk-

LOL ... that's right, Einstein ....... you DON"T know where to begin.

jgarbuz - you are pathetic... where does it say that the precious jews have to have a land all their own. you make so many juvenile assumptions that i dont even know where to begin....

There is no neutrality. Israel is either Jewish land or Arab land. The Arabs have 21 countries covering 3 million square miles. The Jews barely have one tiny one less than 9,000 square miles. And now even Brooklyn, once a Jewish haven, is no longer Jewish and has been taken over. Jews have no other land and must defend Israel at all costs, or cease to exist as a people, which is what many want including leftist "Jews."

and common sense says that whitewashing palestinian atrocities against civilians and demonzing israelis in order to make things "balanced" is simply a nasty lie.

Peace will come when there is a real arab spring of the mind and sprit and heart

not the raping of women and growing Islamism of the egyptian arab "spring"
not the murder of peace activists in the tunisian "spring"
not the butchering of 60,000 (and more everyday) in the Syrian spring
not the daily slaughter of people in Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Somalia and other Islamist areas

it takes courage, not whitewashing

right on kcovey, it is because lehrer is a hack journalist that adopts the tried and true "mainstream media" protocol of the false equivalency argument. he, like most "respected" journalists, tries so hard to be neutral, whatever that is of course, that they ignore common sense. of course, common sense is not so common.

We have become so accustomed to anti-Israel bias that when Brian tries to be neutral it is understood to be biased for Israel.

The Framing (or Spin) of the Textbook Study

There are the findings, and then there are the ways they are presented. Notable, though hardly surprising, is the way the The New York Times chose to frame the study. For the newspaper it tends to be all about Israel looking bad, and its report in this case is no different: The study, they tell readers, is about Israel being wrong and Palestinians being vindicated. Its headline reads, "Academic Study Weakens Israeli Claim That Palestinian School Texts Teach Hate." (The article's URL, which refers to the study "belying" Israeli claims, suggests an earlier headline may have been even stronger and more off-base in its conclusions.

The newspaper could have more accurately reflected the contents of the researchers' press release, and of the study itself, if it chose any number of other headlines. One example: "Study Shows Israeli Improvement in State Textbooks; Ultra-Orthodox and Palestinian Texts Lag."

The press release, too, seems to tend toward symmetrical language, with the effect of minimizing the overall finding that "the negative presentation of the other, the positive, non-critical presentation of the self, and the absence of images and information about the other, are more pronounced in the Israeli ultra-Orthodox and Palestinian school books than in the Israeli State school books."

K Covey - Brian is usually so inclined, yes. Nothing new.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U5-IVKe5QI
PALESTINIANS BRUTALLY SLAUGHTER ISRAELIS AND DANCE AND SCREAM WITH BLOODY BODIES

On October 12, 2000, two non-combatant Israeli reservists (serving as drivers), Vadim Nurzhitz and Yossi Avrahami, mistakenly passed an Israeli checkpoint and entered Ramallah. Reaching a Palestinian Authority roadblock, where previously Israeli soldiers were turned back, the reservists were detained by PA policeman and taken to the local police station. Hearing rumors that idf soldiers were in the building, a crowd of more than 1,000 Palestinians gathered at the station, calling for the death of the Israelis. Soon after, Palestinian rioters stormed the building, beating and stabbing the soldiers to death. At this point, a Palestinian (later identified as Aziz Salha), appeared at the police station window, displaying his blood-stained hands to the crowd, which erupted into cheers. One of the soldier's bodies was then thrown out the window and stamped and beaten by the enraged mob. Soon after, the mob dragged the two mutilated bodies to Al-Manara Square in the city center as the crowd began an impromptu victory celebration

I'd like to know more about the study design, and whether it addresses non-textbook instruction. I think some of this is suggested in other comments in this thread, indirectly or otherwise. We all know that use of a textbook comes down to the teacher. Some use them as guardrails for what's presented to students, and some may assign reading directly from them, with specific pages usually assigned. It's doubtful many students read textbooks completely and at will.

Isn't much of ideology presented beyond the textbook? Shouldn't that be taken into account (though very difficult to measure)?

K Covey ~

Totally agree.

B. Lehrer can never fully face the unevenness of Holy Land conflicts: that the state of Israel is occupying the non-state Palestine-- by military force, illegally, and in ways condemned by every neutral human rights agency. At best, Lehrer treats the "both sides" as equal McCoys and Hatfields; at worst, he implies that Israel exists on a higher cultural plane.

I'm a product of the lubavitcher hasidic school system in brooklyn and like the orthodox text books in Israel much of my religious instruction and books were filled with inflammatory language for arabs.

@ Edward from Wash. Heights ( 09:31 a.m., 1st comment):

I could list just as many examples of Israeli settlers indoctrinating their children against Palestinians and Arabs as well as actually terrorizing and committing other crimes against them.
_______

Bob from Brooklyn wrote: (10:34 a.m.)

"News to all you Christians, Muslims and Jews: Your religion sucks and the holy land is a collective fantasy."

I'm sure Mr. Lehrer appreciates you making this comment just after he praised these comments pages for civility...

Re: Describing a Palestinian village as "a nest of murderers".

Remember the two (non-combat reservist) Israeli soldiers, Vadim Nurzhitz (also spelled, “Norzhich”) and Yosef Avrahami, who were literally ripped apart alive in 2000 at a Palestinian police station in Ramallah, while a mob of Palestinians cheered?

Trumpeldor said "it is good to die for one's country." How do you interpret that as defensive, necessarily? I don't understand.

"I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country." Last words of Nathan Hale, as he was about to be hanged by the British for being a spy for the (American) Continental Army during our Revolutionary War.

Yes I do believe that religion is the root of all evil, or at least most evil.

1. Why Textbooks? I thought kids learn from TV (see first posting links, such as Mickey Mouse vs. the blood sucker Jews);

2. If Textbooks -- which ones? I thought many terrorists get their education from Islamic schools -- not secular.

3. Also Wexler is presenting the study as a scientist -- but for whatever reason Adwan's answers sound quite biased and defensive (although in his current reply he has corrected his tone toward neutral).

Why is this on the radio in the US? What relevance does this have to the average American? This station spends a lot of hours on this "conflict."

Religious kooks!

Religion: JUST SAY NO!

Let's see, what grade was I in when I first heard "Give me liberty or give me death"...? About second grade.

News to all you Christians, Muslims and Jews: Your religion sucks and the holy land is a collective fantasy. You all make it more difficult to let each other live peaceably. We, the sane people, want you to stop your immature bickering, side taking, and propaganda. If you really can't do that, please just go ahead and get it over with already.

So tired of these all these tribes ruining everything.

I'm curious to know if Palestinian text books show Israel on the map of the Middle East.

What we have here are two groups of people with psychotic levels of PTSD.

Thank you for this segment. I tell my kids that there are not that many bad people out there in the world.

The enemy is most often ignorance and fear, and the solution is education, empathy and contact with other cultures.

After all -- we humans ought to remember our core business: self-preservation!

Oh thanks Edward I've seen Hudson Heights and had no idea where the hell that is! LOL Thanks for the education.

Arabs brainwashed little girls to hate Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo

Hamas Mickey Mouse Teaches Terror to Kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

Hamas Indoctrinating Toddlers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LaAvZp7EP4

Hamas Mickey Mouse hatred show continues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi0nDoG5bRU

Rodgers and Hammersteins "South Pacific" said it best...

"SOUTH PACIFIC" - "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJhRYYjHThI