Noach, brutal occupier of Native American land called Brooklyn,

You have only responded, not refuted.

Please show us how a NON-Zionist "authentic" Jew would be treated in Gaza.

Let's see how Hamass treats NON-Zionist "authentic" Jews as opposed to general, run of the mill Jews.

You can also make a statement by traveling to Tahrir Square Egypt. Let's see how you are welcomed outside a carefully controlled show in the Islamist Regime of Iran.

jgarbuz wrote,

"There will be more wars for sure, unfortunately, and many will die but Israel will remain Jewish land."

From the safety of great distance you declare that _other_ people must fight and die?

To Noach again

The only reason Abraham was stupid enough to leave his comfortable home in UR, was because God promised him a LAND. He did not go off into the desert like some sucker, following some empty promise from the voice in his head.
Being the father of a nation (actually many nations) and having a LAND, country of their own for them, is why Abraham went on his journey.

The Jewish slaves of of Egypt did not leave to wander with Moses in the desert forever. They left because they were promised freedom in their own land.

The history of the Jewish nation is for the purpose of returning to their land, and that is the only reason they put up with the rigamarole that the YHWH placed on them. They didn't do all those rituals and follow all those laws just for fun. They took the yoke to plow a road back to their land.

Anyone who takes on a yoke for nothing is a some kind of idiot or parasite, or whatever.

I have decided to copy and paste the original post I had made on Nov. 20th, as I feel it is just as germane here:
____________________
As a NON-Zionist Orthodox Jew, I would like to take this opportunity, first of all, to extend my sympathies and condolences to the Palestinian people for their tremendous loss and suffering.

At this time, especially, I would like to plead with the Palestinians, especially, but also with all people of the world to recognize and bear in mind the following.

The fundamental difference between the Zionist _State_ that calls itself "Israel" and:
-the _people_ of Israel, i.e. the Jewish people
-the religion of _Judaism_; the faith of the _Torah_

In fact, the greatest Rabbinic sages and authorities have, since the inception of Zionism, considered it, in _all_ of its various forms, a grave violation of the Torah. (For an overview and introduction to Torah anti-Zionism, I recommend the web site truetorahjews.org [*])

[*DISCLAIMER: It is not my intention to spam any of these web sites. I simply wish to provide resources for those interested in more on the subject-- one that cannot possibly be done justice on a comments page such as this. Another site that contains material on the topic is http://www.jewswithquestions.com/, which is run by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, spiritual leader of the congregation"Bais Medrash of Bayswater" ( http://www.baismedrash.com/ ) and founder of the organization "Project ReJew-vination", which works with "at-risk" youth. Please note that I am _independent_ and do not _fully_ endorse these or any other web sites.]

There are many Jews, from devoutly Orthodox to completely secular and everything in between, who, for any number of reasons, completely reject Zionism.

Furthermore, even among those who consider themselves Zionist, there are many dissidents and fierce critics of the policies and actions of the State of Israel.

(But how often do you hear such dissident voices on WNYC?)

To the Palestinians, whose immense pain and misery I surely cannot begin to fathom, I nonetheless plead: Do not meet injustice with further injustice; seize the moral high ground by _rejecting_ and _renouncing_ violence and terror against civilians. Embrace non-violent resistance. If not for _moral_ reasons, then at least do this for _pragmatic_ ones of self-interest: Does not every act of violence against Israeli civilians strengthen the arguments of those who defend Israeli occupation and actions on the grounds of "security" and "self-defense"? Even if these are merely pretexts, why not deprive rejectionists of such excuses?

To Noach

Will always be happy and willing to take on your challenge on any forum on the internet-anyplace anytime. No problem.

@jgarbuz:

My post stating that I had already refuted most of what you and Edward from Washington Heights had written was submitted prior to my having seen your posts dated 11:15 and onward.

I would like to respond to more of what you have written but doing so would require time that I unfortunately cannot spare now. Perhaps at another point, if I get the chance.

To Marcia

There is nothing arbitrary about it.The Arabs continue the struggle to destroy the one and only Jewish state,and the Jewish state will defend itself by whatever means necessary, as any other country would against terrorists.

Great segment thoughtfully outlining the arbitrary nature of Israeli regulations regarding freedom of human movement and goods between Gaza and the West Bank, Egypt and Israel.
THANK YOU.

Noach should lead the movement to create an independent Brooklynite state. A "Palestinian" state has as much validity as a "Brooklynite" state. The Brooklynite people have as much ancient history and national rights as do the Palestinian people. Why can't Brooklyn get its independence and observer status at the UN? Is it because Brooklyn does not send suicide bombers or fire rockets into Manhattan? Look at all the Manhattanites occupying Brooklyn land.

Noach

In the wake of WWI the League of Nations was created at the insistence of US president Woodrow Wilson and the Versailles Peace conference. At that conference, in 1919, the leader of the Arab revolt, Emir Feisal, met Chaim Weizmann and agreed to the "Zionist programme." He agree that Palestine would become the Jewish homeland again.

In July 1922, the Council of the League of Nations created the Jewish National Home and urged Jews to return and resettle "state lands" and "wasterlands' and great self-governing institutions. It did not recognize any other nation living in Paletine, but only referred to "existing non-Jewish communities."

After WWII, when the British decides it had had enough and decided to withdraw, the new UN General Assembly in Novemer 1947 voted to authorize a "Jewish State" and an "Arab state" to live in peace alongside each other, but the Arab chose war instead.

The Arabs will never accept the Jewish State or any solution that isn't aimed at destroying it. The Arabs refuse to accept Israel as the Jewish State.that has always been the core of the conflict and remains so.

Noach of Native American land now called Bklyn,

jgarbuz and others have refuted what you presented.

Below are selected excerpts from my posts at
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/nov/20/update-gaza/
..........
How could there be any sense or justice in Jews further encroaching upon the Palestinians land and resources by settling in Gaza-- one of the most densely-populated and battered places in the world, where every bit of the already scarce and strained resources are desperately needed by the Palestinians?
...............................

Regarding the claim that Israel is "Jewish land":

If you are claiming that Jews have a _historical_ claim to the land, then I might begin (at the risk, perhaps, of resorting to a cliche`) by invoking the Native Americans, the people indigenous to the very land that you and I now dwell upon right here in these United States of America. How ready and willing would you be to cede your home to these original inhabitants, were they to come and demand it back from you now?

As for the _theological_ claim that the Land of Israel ("Eretz Yisrael") belongs to the Jewish people, having been given to them by none other G-d himself, a proper response to this would quickly go well beyond the scope of the topic and venue at hand. I will simply note here that the Talmud states that the Jewish people were banished from the Land of Israel and forbidden from re-establishing sovereignty over it until the arrival of the Messiah by the very same G-d who had given it to them in the first place. I would refer those interested in more information and discussion on this topic (Torah-based opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel) to the web site ** truetorahjews.org **.

Noach

You've refuted nothing. You've not addressed the 2.5 million Jewish refugees from the Arab countries. You have not addressed the Arab growth from 145,000 to 1.6 million Arabs living INSIDE the Green Line. What about the huge number of Arabs living inside pre-1967 Israel? Non-Jews make up 26% of Israel's population. What about fact that Zero Jews live in Gaza and yet they keep sending rockets? All you concentrate on are the 300,000 Jews who live on exactly 1.7% territory of the WEst Bank, and that's all. They constitute no more than 5% of the total population of the Palestinian areas whereas Arabs constitute 25% of Israeli territory.

I have already refuted most of what jgarbuz and Edward from Washington Heights have written on the comment page for the Nov. 20th segment on Gaza with David Sanger:
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/nov/20/update-gaza/

To Noach

While you speak of the growth of "settlements"you forget to mentoin that the Israeli- Arab population who live INSIDE the Green Line have grown from 145,000 to 1.6 million since 1948! They eat up Jewish land! And the total Arab population of Israel, West Bank and Gaza has grown from 1.2 million in 1948 to 6 million today, or a 500% growth! In other words, five times as many Arabs live in what was Mandatory Palestine today than did in 1947! And that does not count another 6 million living in Jordan, Lebanon, the US and elsewhere. While the world Jewish population hasn't recovered in numbers from the Holocaust, the Arab population has grown TENFOLD since WWII. And what about the 856,000 Jews who were kiced out of the Arab countries? When was the last time NPR did a story about them?

TO Dk

That's right. Israel, Israel UBER ALLES. Germany is doing okay 70 years after the Holocaust. Maybe we remaining Jews have to learn a lesson from that. After all, didn't Samuel demand extermination of the Amalekites? Arabs are occupying Jewish land.They have 21 countries of their own! Jews barely have one.

Apropos quote from Akiva Eldar, of the Israeli daily HaAretz:

"Occupation does not have two sides. There is no symmetry between the occupier and the occupied. This is true even if the occupied fight the occupier with despicable and contemptuous methods. The problem of mainstream politicians and journalists in Israel--including the Zionist left--is that for years, present day included, they have accepted the conversion of the occupation into an annexation process. Leaders of the Labor Party and even the left-liberal Meretz turned a blind eye while government ministries and the military helped settlers take control of more and more territory. The trend, which contravenes international law, did not stop even after the Oslo Accords were signed in September 1993. At that time there were 110,000 Jews living in the settlements. Today, almost 280,000 Jews live on the West Bank and more than 200,000 over the Green Line in Jerusalem. Now the government expects the Palestinians to give up substantial parts of these occupied lands and allow it to impose Israeli law on them. Is this the behavior of a country on its way out of the occupied territories?"

- On Not Passing Israel's 'Lynch Test'
(This article appeared in the May 26, 2008 edition of The Nation.)
http://www.thenation.com/article/not-passing-israels-lynch-test

Dk,

Google Images "arab nazi salute"

"Many will die but Israel will remain Jewish land"? Is it me or does that sound a lot like what Nazis would have said about Germany during WWII?

Hey Noach of Brooklyn,

If you are against occupation, you should leave the Native American land of Brooklyn and relocate to Gaza or Saudi Arabia where an "authentic" Jew can live with all the necessary community infrastructure necessary to an "authentic" Jew.

The Arabs who occupied Jewish land some 1300 years ago have plenty of countries of their own, some 21 at last. There is no shortage of Arab land for the Arab peoples. Israel is Jewish land and finally has a Jewish government willing to call Israel the "Jewish State," unlike the old bolsheviks who came to Palestine to found a communist state. There will be more wars for sure, unfortunately, and many will die but Israel will remain Jewish land.

The recent UN meeting spent less than an hour on the 40,000 slaughtered in Syria and 6 hours the next day on Israel. What's going on? Let's hear about the double standard and let's hear about Syria!

Speaking of "narrower debate",

- Morsi becoming the Muslim Brotherhood dictator of Egypt
- Assad's Syria with 44,000 dead at the hand of fellow Islamists
- Assad's Syria reportedly ready to use his WMD stockpile of poison gas which he got from Saddams Iraq
- hamass firing rockets into Israel

and all the FAKE anti-war groups can do is focus on Israel?

Why have so many "progressives" come down with OCD?

Why can't people criticize Israel bc they love Israel and they want to see Israel exist in peace with its neighbors? This guest obviously cares about the future of Israel and wants to help create stability and peace there. How can Israel expect long-lasting peace if they continue to keep people in ghettos?

Ms. Bashi characterized the continued expansion of settlements as, "not helpful".

Isn't this continued encroachment upon Palestinian land and resources (which has continued unabated throughout the past forty-five or so years) fundamentally _immoral_ , _unjust_ and _illegal_?

This is why Palestinin National Radio will never get a dime out of me ever again. I LIVED IN BEERSHEBA! I worked in Sderot in the 1980s before the first intifada! Over 25,000 Gazans used to come into Israel every day, to work or get free health care. They never had it so good in all of history.
When I lived there 30 years ago there were less than 700,000 Arabs in Gaza. Today there is a million more because the avarage family has 8 children. Only about 50,000 Arab refugees fled to the Gaza strip in 1948, Now there are 1.8 million. Is that all Israel's fault?

As long as Palestinian National Radio adamantly refuses to air a totally pro-nationalist Israeli spokesman, there is no hope of the truth ever getting out.

If Brian Lehrer is now deemed to be anti-Israel, what's the acceptable range of discourse? Likud and to the right of Likud?

Meanwhile, Brian hilariously suggests that the Palestinians overthrow Hamas in favor of a more moderate government -- presumably, in order to enjoy all the concessions obtained by Fatah from Israel over the years.... In other words, zero.

Why is it some American Jews and the American right-wing generally demand a much narrower debate than they have in Israel?

The next time Hamasstan attacks Israel, Israel should treat Hamasstan as the US treated 1945 Berlin.

Hamas is a brutal dictatorship that oppresses Gazans horribly. How did this interview somehow omit that fact?

Brian, Thank you so much for having a critic of Israel on your program and thank you even more for not making me listen to a supporter of Israel.

Some people view you as not being supportive of Israel and not loving Israe.l For the record, would you state your feelings toward Israel.

Wow. This woman has totally lost the plot.

What a putz, Lehrer.

Syria is loading poison nerve gas....and you're pretending that you are the anti-Israel BBC.

I got a question: Does "freedom of movement" include the right of Jews to move to Gaza and the West Bank? Or do Jews constitute a contamination of the land?

Today's NYT seems to state that Fatah has settled into the diplomatic corps of the Palestinian movement, and Hamas, the military, with the two possibly settling into that arrangement.

Agree?