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I went to High School in the Bahamas. Under the English system for over 100 years we start school at 9:00 am.

Tardiness is rare, Kids even do chores before school. It was crazy to me when I moved to the USA and saw kids going to school so early, also there is so much research all over the world that Teenagers especially function so much better later, and all kids need a good amount of sleep, we are racing our kids to adulthood and responsibilities to fast and we're behind as a nation because of it, My Nephew in Germany don't even start school until six, we start them at Pre-K. Why are we also 10 years behind the rest of the world.

Even ONE hour later would make a huge difference. My child can't get to sleep before 11 or 12 and is exhausted pretty much every day, as are her friends, because she leaves the house before 7 to catch the bus. Studies show it's bad when people get too little sleep during the week, then try to catch up on the weekend (and default to a pattern they can't sustain during the coming week). Sports are often cited as the reason for this system, but some kids can't handle sports and homework on top of this insane schedule. The current schedule is good for elementary school, not middle or high school.

I don't think schools should be started later. I think this because its been like this forever, and to change the time now would mess up everyones schedules. High school students have hectic schedules already, and to have sports practices then be later at night will definitley not benefit students. I feel that practice right after school is perfect because it still leaves them the rest of the day to do homework, sleep, and etc. If school started later, practices would go into late hours of the night causing dinner schedules, as well as other activities to then be messed up. I think that the change is unneccessary and wouldn't benefit students at all.

I think school should be started later in order to increase students ability to retain the information that is being thrown at them throughout the day. I know that in my case there are days where I am just to tired to pay attention and it really hurts when test day comes. I also think that most wouldn't stay up any later which seems to be the counterargument. Students seem to be so sleep deprived and would take any extra sleep they can get without staying up any later then they already do.
what up

I think that the mentioned Obama plan for merit pay for teachers is utterly ridiculous. Teachers cannot control the intelligence of the students, whether they are good test takers and if they have test anxiety, and can't control if the students work hard or hardly work. Furthermore, teachers don't get payed enough already and a decrease in their pay would be a big mistake. Lastly, if teachers only teach for the test, then a lot of outside information is being sacrificed. I feel that foreign languages in particular will suffer because if teachers only teach for the regents exam, there is a lot of outside information that students will be missing out on.

So strange all these students saying it would hurt their extracurricular activities. Isn't extracurriculatar "extra"?? They rather hurt their core education rather than afterschool activities? That's misplaced priorities.

I agree with ML from Brooklyn #38 and Jane #29 from UK. Kids don't need all the extra activities or responsibilities after school. (As an older child in a family of 8 children I was forced to take on far too much responsibility for taking care of my younger siblings and other family tasks - essentially making me an untrained, unwilling and overworked "teenage mom." Sports and jobs are not as important as academics. A later start time sounds like a great idea to me.

One other thing. One fact that is repeated over and over is that "the students have requested this". No. No they haven't. I cannot speak for each student at South, but I can say that most of them hate the idea. This idea was spawned from a single individual from south and a single individual from north (misguided morons).

Absolutely not. This is by far one of the worst ideas I have ever heard come from central. Sure, getting up later sounds appealing but not one student wants to get home around 4 and have less time to do what they wish with their day, not to mention school sports players wouldn't get home until at least 7 or 8ish. What about the kids with jobs? Some students need jobs to support families or atleast themselves. I am a student of Clarkstown South, and I can tell you with confidence that the student advisory board SUCKS! Every class I'm in has discussed this and not one student agrees with it. The student advisory should be replaced.

I have concerns that this proposal has been suggested primarily because of students' request for more sleep, not academic disparity between students taking classes in the morning and in the afternoon. I teach in this district and I can say with confidence that there is no difference in the academic performance of students who are in first period at 7:25 compared with 8th period at 1:15. In fact students in earlier sections often seem more focused because they seem to have less energy for the behaviors that often get students in trouble in the afternoons. If the Superintendent has such a strong desire to implement such a sweeping move based on research, it should be academic achievement data from our own students that drives the process. Through the district's own polling, the community has shown it is overwhelmingly in support of leaving the current schedule. And I am disturbed by the Superintendent's suggestion that the poll numbers may not be accurate because people may have voted more than once, as if there might be a conspiracy to skew the numbers against the proposal. In a district facing a 6 million dollar defecit, layoffs of faculty, cut programs, and increased class sizes, should this really be the priority? And if neither academic achievement within the district nor community demand is driving this change, than what is?

First, I'm for a later start time for high school because I think, based on my own experience and reading the studies, the students will do better in their studies, and also be healthier.
Second, this shouldn't be decided by the children, after all, we're the parents, we're supposed to know (and do) what's best for them.
Even though my highschooler says he doesn't want the later start, he really loves it when there's a snow delay.
Third, I think we need more detail regarding the impact on sports schedules and other afterschool activities before we can make an informed decision. i.e. The phone poll was a very poor way to measure the pulse of the community.
Finally, currently I think the start times in Clarkstown are :
7:30 - high school
8:30 - grammar school
9:00 - middle school

Why can't we change it to something like:
8:00 Grammar school
8:30 High School
9:00 Middle school

Here's an article from a few years ago on the subject... there have been numerous other studies which show a later start time has many merits for teens; I just haven't dug them out of my vast archive yet! (I had to trim most of the article in order to fit the post here; full article is at http://www.w2jc.org/misc/070223_Teens_need_later_mornings.pdf

Later to bed, later to rise may make teenagers wiser

Friday, February 23, 2007
By ERIC HSU
STAFF WRITER, The Record, Hackensack, NJ

Research has started to suggest what teenagers
have known implicitly since well before the snooze button was invented: Teens undergo biological changes that make their natural sleep cycle start later at night and extend later in the morning than that of younger kids.

In other words, if teens stay up and sleep in late, they're not just being rebellious and lazy, it's a natural part of growing up.

Much of the interest in later start times has revolved around the Minneapolis public schools, which in 1997 changed their start time to 8:40 a.m. from 7:15 a.m.for more than 12,000 high school students.

The change has resulted in improved attendance and enrollment rates, less sleeping in class and less student-reported depression.

Findings such as these are in part what persuaded Glen Rock High School last year to move its start time to 7:55 a.m. from 7:35 a.m.

The change has helped reduce tardiness.

CON

"If athletics begins later, you start really having a problem with darkness getting into the fall."

Busing is a factor because many districts use a two-tiered schedule in which buses pick up high school students first, then make a second pass for elementary school students.

Students who work after school also would have to arrange new schedules with employers and would get home even later in the evening.

Great idea, I wished for this my entire time in middle and high school. I can only imagine what a better student I would could have been had I not have to be at high school at 7:30AM! I fully couldn't function at that hour and still can't!

I am a mom of 3 Extra large boys. I have spoken to many school officials for abot 20 years in regards to starting school later. I have a 24year old who went threw High svhool exhausted. My 18 year old went to a boarding school in part to alleviate this problem. My 14 year old is about to enter High school next year and I will continue to do what I do with him now in middle school. Pray for his easy classes to be first snd second period and allow him, on occasion, to sleep in because of "illness", terrible headaches do to lack of sleep! Bedtime in our house is 9 In addition to being unhealthy, one only grows while sleeping! My husband and I are karge and our kids are extremely big. (their sports teams bennefit). Hopefully the people in charge in Denville will come around too.

Re comment 43 -- I meant "never able." (See -- I'm still waking up!)"

I should add that sometimes it's your circadian rhythms, not merely age, at work. I cannot get up before 8 a.m. unless, literally, I have to catch a plane. I get to work -- I'm a lawyer and a college teacher -- between 10 a.m. and 10:30 a.m. Yet my day often does not end until 10 p.m., and people have gotten emails from me at one in the morning. I just work better later in the day. (So now I'm posting to this board, listening to Brian, drinking my tea, phone-calling, and reading my e-mails; this afternoon, however, I will be in power drive.) One of the senior attorneys at my firm jogs to work each day -- at 11 a.m. He, too, however, is a night-worker.

People work better when they work with their bodies. I've told my son that, when he finishes school, he should look for a job with either (1) flexible hours or (2) a late start. They do exist (after the Great Recession, of course.)

We removed our son from a NYC independent school because he was never unable to arrive on time for his very early first class, and the school would not reschedule him. He could not get to sleep before 2 a.m. His doctors told us that it was normal for a teenage boy to be on such a schedule. School and his body clock were incompatible.

The suburban high school that he attended (we moved) was much more flexible, but it was clear to us that, until his body matured, our son was never going to get anywhere before 10 a.m. He is now a college student. His first class starts at 11 a.m. On one day a week, he has a "night" class that ends at 10 p.m.

He's never late. He has a whole different attitude toward school. Why not let the kids start at 9 a.m.? Why fight nature, and treat the kids like criminals when nature fights back?

I believe things should remain the same. If high school kids have after school jobs, or sports, an earlier start time will conflict with that. Let's keep things the way they are. They are home early enough to complete their homework, have a part time job and/or compete in sports.

I completed this phone survey! When I got the call at home (I live in New City) I remember thinking, "Wow. I think I might've been more productive at Nanuet High School if I had a later start time." I spent many a late night wondering how I was going to get up on time early the next morning.

I'm glad our school district is going this far to take the students' needs into account - something I think schools in general don't too much of.

While, as a high school senior, I think that 7:35 is too early to start school, 9:00 seems a little late. My school starts classes at 8:25 and ends at 3:35. This means that even with after school activities, students get home by 7:00. Any later, and sports practices would have to take place in the dark (most schools don't want to pay for lighting), and students wouldn't start homework until 8:30.
Though some studies show that teenager's brains operate at maximum capacity later in the day, it just doesn't make logistical sense to start and end school later. I also agree that students probably wouldn't sleep more, but just sleep at different times.

* Has anybody thought about the difficulty that single parents would have getting their kids to school at 9:00 a.m. -- at exactly the same time they have to be at work?

* I also think about the many children in the world who get up before dawn to help their parents eke out a subsistence existence. Can they cite "raging hormones" as a reason to get that extra hour of sleep?

* From personal experience, I can say that the kids who complain about needing more sleep in the morning are the kids who go to bed at 2:00 a.m. -- after texting and IMing their friends for a couple of hours!

Shouldn't the priority here be the kids' education? Not the sports teams' schedules, not the after-school job, not the babysitting of younger siblings. If we want kids to learn, we should provide them an environment in which they thrive. I believe that environment does not include the ridiculous start times of some of these high schools.

As a family with 3 kids in the Clarkstown District there has been an ongoing debate at our dinner table about this switch. Both High Schoolers (believe it or not) want to stay at the early schedule so that they get home early. Ths middle scholler disagrees. :-) Tim

I have read in a psychology study that teenagers' hormone levels indicate that a later start time is beneficial for learning.

The driving force for this change is students staying up late ... why not encourage students to go to bed at an appropriate time?

I can't imagine with all the challenges a school district faces in these economic times that this Superintendent considers this a priority.

younger kids automatically get up early. let the elementary schoo start earlier

I cannot believe that these poor kids have to be on premises at 7:30. If I'd had the option as a kid, I would have chosen night school...I was consistently in a fog before 11am-noon on most days. Some of us have never been "morning people."

Yes! This is great idea whose time has come! My teen is often late for school because she just can't get out of bed in the wee hours of the morning. When we have delayed openings (for snow days) I notice a real difference in her ability to function.

I am one of those parents who does rely on my teen to come home and take care of my younger elementary-age child, so it just means I need to be creative. We'll figure that out easily enough, and we'll be a healthier family in general.

I hope all Rockland schools get on board!

As a recent HS grad (within 3 years), I can say that a better approach may be to restructure class timings based on how students' brains function. In talking with health professionals, the impact of an early workout on academic performance are staggering. Perhaps this means all students should have phys ed. or athletic practice first period if the data supports the claim. Are Math and Science better early in the morning or later in the day? The same question may be asked for Language and History. Now an engineering co-op student, I realize that the work day does not work around my schedule, but that I manipulate when I do certain functions for when I'm most refreshed and energized. Also, the issue of diet comes up here. Isn't energy a function of what and how we eat?

Oh, and I don't know if this was mentioned, but the reason for the early start time in Clarkstown has always been that they need the buses to be freed up for junior high school and then elementary school.

I went to high school in the UK and school there started at 9 and was over at 4pm. We got a solid hour for lunch. My brother went to an American high school and used to start at 8am. He was done at 3:15. I had 6 weeks off during the Summer, not 3 months, and we used to get a week during each half-term (half term holidays), and 2 weeks at Easter and christmas (no separtation of church and state). When I finally went to an American school I was far more exhausted because we were constantly having Prom, Homecoming, this event, that event, cheerleading, pep rallies. etc etc etc. I learned NOTHING at the American high school and so much in the Brit school. We didn't even have text books in the Brit school.

Brian, please ask your guest:

Why is it that, none of the reasons she gave against making school start earlier, have anything to do with academic learning?

Great idea..!

My vote is for 9AM...the later they get there the longer they have to stay in!

Brilliant! As the parent of a teenager, this is something that would make me choose one school over another. Childrens body-clocks change during the teenage years and they're programed by nature to fall asleep later and wake up later. They can't learn as well. Better to have them in a classroom during the afternoon rather than out on the streets.

Graduate of Clarkstown South ('90) - first period of my senior year was art history. Lights off, slide show at 7:40 am - guess how many of us fell asleep?

Don't teenagers developmentally need more sleep?

By delaying the start-time, at least two class periods will most likely be removed from students' schedules. This is particularly unfair for motivated students who are packing in extra classes such as AP courses, and also for over-crowded public schools like Benjamin N. Cardozo HS in Queens. And of course, just because classes start at a later time doesn't mean students/teachers will stay extra hours to learn/teach.

Will students just end up pushing their sleep time the same number of hours and therefore still be tired in the morning?

I think it is a great idea to start school later, sports will still be there. Arrangements will have to be made regardless of your situation at home, that's just the way it is. "YOU WILL" have better functioning students. After all.. isn't that the whole purpose? Let's stick to the matter at hand.

I have a HS student, and neither of us are in favor of starting HS later. My daughter prefers to go in early and get home early. She did not like getting home at 4pm when she was in Middle School. The after school sports schedule is also a factor, as well as, teenage jobs and the ability for them to be home for younger siblings as parents are at work. Middle school students are also not in favor of starting earlier.

I went to Clarkstown schools as a child. Back then, Middle school started at approx 8:00 as some of the elementary schools do now. HS went in first, then middle schoool then elementary. If they change anything, I think it should go back to that schedule.

We are middle school students on Long Island, we believe that starting school later will help us do better in school. Starting school later will help us work harder and focus because everyday we feel like it is hard to concentrate. We have done much research on the topic and found that starting school later helps not having as much drunk driving, the drop out rates have gone down, and attendance has gone up. We relate to this topic because it affects our everyday lives as well as many other middle school and high school students.

Brian, why do you keep using the word "enormity" to imply "size." It's as bad as "irregardless."

We are middle school students and we are doing research on this so we decided to comment. We believe that school should start later, we feel that having school start later would have us do better in school, and not be as tired. We can focus better and work harder and more efficiently.

There can be little doubt that kids are just going to stay up later and negate the extra hour. The amount of time in a day is still 24 hours, no matter how one slices it up. The real problem is kids who are extremely overscheduled in hopes that more "stuff" on their college application will eventually lead to success in life. Couple this with parents who either won't or cannot establish a routine for their children (yes, they are still children), and you end up with a problem that, like all societal ones, cannot be solved with the simple fix of a schedule change.

Having said all of this, I believe the entire high school concept is archaic and needs to be completely changed. There is no reason why all classes have to start at the same time and at an arbitrary time in the morning. High school should look more like college--especially from 10th grade on--with much more diversity in classes and times in which they occur. Only a radical restructuring of the high school system will allow the US to stay competitive with our global counterparts.

A few years ago, I was part of the group that spearheaded the effort to change our start times for adolescents here, where 8th-12th graders begin their day at 7:30AM. The research was fascinating and overwhelmingly indicative of the need for a later start for these struggling kids.

Adolescents need 9-10 hours of sleep but many get 5,6,7 hours. Part of the hormonal changes that occur in adolescence includes the shift to a later release of melatonin, the hormone that induces sleep, making it impossible for many to fall asleep before 11PM. When kids arrive at school the next morning, melatonin is still telling them to be asleep for at least 2 more hours.

It's important to know that sleep deprivation is cumulative, with most kids in serious sleep "debt" of 5-15 hours by Friday, this debt affecting their immune, metabolic, cardiovascular and neurological systems. It impairs creativity, abstract thinking, problem-solving, concentration, decision-making, coordination and motor response times. And lastly, sleep loss increases the likelihood of stimulant and alcohol use, and auto crashes.

To view some documents, visit: http://lwvnewcanaan.org/id6.html

I don't believe this will result in a net gain of sleep for the students. They will stay up later, making up sleep in the morning. The likely result will be less time in the afternoon for homework, athletics, extra-curricular activities, employment for those student who want or need to work and minding younger siblings after school. Also, unless all local districts made the same change, after school athletics will be harder to coordinate. Athletes will have to lose class time to make events that start at the old time. Same applies for other extra-curricular activities with other schools. I think this is an idea that sounds ok on paper but will be more trouble than it is work to implement. Finally, there is something to be said for the responsibility hopefully generated in high school students by getting up early and starting the day. A necessary skill in college, in the case of early morning classes, and certainly necessary for the working world. Prior generations send men to the moon with an early high school start time. I don't think that start time is negatively impacting academic performance as much as all the 21st century electronic distractions that our kids immerse themselves in every day.

My preference is for the HS start time to remain the same. Having the students begin school at a later time will not allow for enough time after school for studies, sports, employment and just plain old down time. The students would need to stay up later to complete homework assignments, with the later bedtimes not only impacting the students’ sleep, but possibly disrupting the sleep patterns of siblings as well.

Although studies have pointed out the benefits of having HS students get more sleep, I think the opposite would be true. All the time change would accomplish is a re-distribution of time for the students.

If we are going to focus on studies that show how HS test scores improve, maybe we should look instead at the studies that demonstrate how much better students perform on tests when fed a diet of fish twice a week.

If there were to be any change at all, I would swap the middle school with the grammar schools, with the grammar schools beginning latest. The change the middle school children have to adjust to when HS begins is a big one.

(sent via email from Nadine McGarry-Smith, parent of students at Felix Festa MS and Clarkstown HS North)

A few years ago, the League of Women Voters thoroughly researched and advocated a later start time for our 7th-12th graders who now start classes at 7:30 A.M. In spite of scientific evidence of the health risks of loss of sleep, the performance benefits of adequate sleep, and overwhelming support of the parent body, a later start time was not approved by the BOE. The major roadblocks were athletics schedules and bus costs. Needless to say, it was extremely disappointing for us parents who see our teens struggle to go to school when their brains are still asleep.

It's 1:15am and my 17 year old is finishing a reading assignment for school (which begins in 7.5 hours). Starting the school day at 9:00 will yield little difference for high school kids- a) the amount of homework assigned would need to be reduced so that kids can fit in more sleep, rather than just get to bed later knowing they can sleep later, and b) 9am is still very early in the day for teenage brains. A 9:00 start time will mean for many NYC kids a 7:00 wake time given almost hour-long commutes. A 10:00 start time would allow high schoolers to sleep until 8:00, shower, eat breakfast, etc., but of course a 10:00 start time means a much later end time and fewer after school activities.

As a senior at Stuyvesant High School, I've learned to appreciate the value of a good night's sleep. I have first period free every day, so I currently start at 8:40, which is perfect. It means I can usually secure my requisite 7-8 hours of sleep, but it means I have time to wake up early in the morning to finish work if need be. But I'm lucky, most of my friends start at 8, and many of them admit to having trouble paying attention in their morning classes.

That being said, sleep is not a luxury of the real world. Many if not most jobs start at or before eight o'clock, no negotiation. True, teens have different sleep needs than adults, but there is something to be said for learning to wake up early to an alarm and be able to get work done.

All things considered, I'd love the extra sleep, and I'm sure most of my classmates would agree.

As a student whose school day is seven and a half hours long, I would have serious concerns about the effect on my after school time. As much as the extra time in the morning sounds appealing, it is important that there is enough time between the end of school and the dinner hour, when most teachers and students must go home. Especially in winter months, students and teachers already often race against the clock to get home before it is thoroughly dark out. A more lasting solution would be to reduce the workloads placed on students, allowing them to actually get more sleep, not just adjust what hours of the day they sleep.

I start school at 8:25am. Ideally, I'd like to start later, but the problem is that if school starts later, it ends later, meaning there's less time for sports practices or band practices, etc. I'd probably have to stay up later to get my work done, so in the end I wouldn't gain any extra sleep. It's a great idea, but the implementation isn't practical.

I am a student who starts school at 8:25 a.m. I don't support later start times because it would mean I would be at school all day and it would limit the opportunity for extracurriculars. One's extracurriculars would be sleep. It's unlikely you'll wake up early to play sports, etc. and it works better to get out in the mid-afternoon and play sports, etc. than to get out with only time to do homework and go to bed. I think that moving the start time around wouldn't change the net amount of sleep a student gets, and it would just make scheduling more difficult.

Below are comments from Clarkstown PTA members and parents (collected by Dorothy Atzl, president of the Clarkstown Council of PTAs)

FOR THE LATER START TIME PROPOSAL

– It will help High School students function better because they will be in school during their most mentally productive hours of the day.

– Teenagers need more sleep for their brain to develop and the time change will accommodate this.

AGAINST THE LATER START TIME PROPOSAL

- Doesn’t need to be changed since kids in High School are used to schedule. It will affect afterschool jobs for students.

- Older High School students need to get out earlier and get home earlier – like they do now – so they can be there to watch younger siblings in middle school & elementary school.

- Other than “research” that supports teens needing more sleep – there is no reason that makes sense for a change.

– This change would adversely affect after-school sports scheduling and practices. Gym time is very limited and many sports compete for practice space.

NEUTRAL ON THE LATER START TIME PROPOSAL

– Still need more information before I take a position.

- We need much more detail about how this will be implemented – impact on after school clubs, sports, etc. I can’t have an opinion without knowing more detail – Very vague.

I am both a parent and a teacher. My daughter will start high school next year. She will have to get up before I do (I teach elementary school close by, while she will have to travel into Manhattan to go to high school.) Her new school starts at 8 am, which means she really will have to get up around 6 am. I feel that this is unhealthy, given what is now known about the sleep cycles of teens. I am concerned about how she will handle this, as she never does very well when she doesn't get enough sleep. Why can't they even start at 8:30 or 9:00? Particulary given that the City is encouraging kids to travel to distant schools through school choice, particularly in High School.

A few weeks ago our 8th grade son had to decide between two high school choices in New York City. The commute to both schools would have been about 50 minutes, typical for NYC high schoolers. One choice was a specialized high school which starts at 8:05am, the other was Bard High School Early College which starts at 9:00am. Both were great school choices, but he went with Bard not only for the quality of teaching, but also because now he has to leave the house one hour later. We believe that that hour will make a difference during his high school years, when kids are expected to not only excell at home work, but at extracurriculars. As a family we are thrilled that he will get the extra hour of sleep. Now we don't have to stress out so much if it gets late once in a while.

I feel they should start later, our soceity is no longer agrarian, we do not have to get home to care for live stock. But it is scientific fact that teenagers produce a chemical which induces tiredness longer in the morning then other age groups.

Wow, I would have loved this in my public school teaching days! I'm sure it would be wildly inconvenient for working parents, but it was always apparent that it took kids a few hours to "warm up" to the day. I love the idea of early risers getting to spend some time at home over a slower breakfast, maybe doing their piano practice early in the morning, reviewing notes, etc. These are things that aren't too appealing at 6:30 when you're rolling out of bed to catch that 7am bus.