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Thank you, Ms. Ravitch. I applaud your decision to reverse course on the disastrous policies that NCLB spawned, including incessant testing and moving students out of neighborhood schools, even when it means, as it invariably does, that they have to travel further and to a place where they have no ties. Thanks, too, for noting that teaching to the test doesn't work because there often isn't clear curriculae in place for each grade level (which is a big part of the problem, as any teacher would tell you). And to the caller who believes that vouchers and charter schools represent a choice, I would ask him to give it 2-3 years. Every new effort shows gains at first. (When they don't, then that's real cause for concern.) But when these schools have to accept a greater cross-section of children from disadvantaged communities and cannot expel students who do not conform to expectations, then we'll see a back slide, that is, unless these schools start massaging results--and there's already ample evidence that many have tried to do just that. The real issue, as Ms. Ravitch points out, is poverty and the pressures on families and children living in poor communities. Public education, alone, cannot address the myriad and complex problems these communities have. I am terribly disappointed by President Obama's position on the Rhode Island SD. If someone told him that his children's private school would be upended right in the middle of a school year or a period, like middle school or high school, and that everyone working there would be dismissed, he and his wife would be up in arms. Arne Duncan has never impressed most of us who follow these issues, and the chickens are coming home to roost in Chicago.

Yeah, we need to change the laws in NYS. Tweak the Taylor law so that the state and city administrations bargain in good faith. Tenure is simply the requirement that a person cannot be fired with out cause. If the administration is so incompetent they cannot process those cases that is not the fault of the teachers.

Eliminate tenure and the teachers in NYS will be more accountable. Put in a merit pay and fair appraisal system and hold the teachers, admin and districts accountable. We need to change the laws in New York State. Pay for performance.

I applaud Diane Ravitch for her courage in re-evaluating the state of education and offering concrete solutions to the problems created by No Child Left Behind initiatives. I
was struck by the similarity between NCLB and Leave No Child Behind, the motto of Marian Wright Edelman's Childrens Defense Fund (founded in 1973), and hoped that the values that inform the CDF would be the foundation for the Obama Administration's education policies. Fortunately, there's still time..

@Susan fr Yorktown

As Ravitch just said, she was in the administration of Bush I. Also, I second the folks who are happy to hear someone can look at evidence and thereby change fr a wrongheaded policy.

@Katherine fr Brooklyn
By the very fact that parents have to be aware enough to apply for charters, as opposed to just showing up at their neighborhood schools self-selects for more involved parents. Also, many charters have been accused of dropping "problem" children in a way that non-charters can't.

I am SOOO glad Ravitch is getting this publicity because the Obama/Duncan/Bloomberg/Klein steamroller/PR machine has nearly drowned out any opposition to its pro-testing, pro-charter regime. I am a parent, not a member of a teacher's union. The unions are not the only ones distressed by what's happening in the name of reforming schools.

#14 katherine, a more accurate way of putting it may be that parents who apply in the lottery for a charter school are already highly motivated and better organized than some of their counterparts. That may mean their kids do better in school. Also, not all charters are on a lottery and not all take special ed kids.

As the mom of 2 children in the NYC PS system (12 yr and 8yrs) it deeply saddens and frustrates me to know that the Edu system doesn't work for all children. We are on the UES in a solid school (although you're right about the lack of curriculum) but at least they are receiving a somewhat adequate education. When I see what goes on 30 blocks North of us it's upsetting - why does it all come down to money?? Ask the PAs of the successful schools why the schools work! It's the fundraising!!! This country needs to get it's educational act together!

My daughter (now a Jr in college) went to a wonderful NY Public middle/HS, Institute for Collaborative Education. The school was small, learning was hands-on, and respect for other learners was paramount. Students were engaged (important in a country where most HS dropouts cite boredom in school as the main reason for leaving)! Despite the very high rate of kids going on to college, and its other successes, the school faced a constant lack of support from the Bd of Ed. Why this school's model and models of other successful schools are not followed is beyond me.

As long as we leave families "behind," their children won't even "get off the starting line." Schools cannot solve this problem.

Hi All,
I just wanted to make the observation that the school in most communities is becoming the center of a child's life. With parents working more hours and churches have less involvement in most communities, I feel that if we use a corporate approach to theses schools we will eventually constantly disrupt children's lives by replacing teachers.

Brian and Diane Ravitch and others interested in the problems and solutions should take a look at the new issue of City Limits magazine, which features an in-depth investigation of Geoff Canada's Harlem Children Zone and argues that there is simply no data to support that it is producing results, and that its success is largely a result of the huge amount of corporate money it has pulled in thanks to its charismatic head.
http://www.citylimits.org/magazine/issue.cfm?issue_id=109

Disclaimer: I have no connection to City Limits other than admiring their work.

First, thank you for looking using data to inform your opinions instead of ideology. We cannot solve our complicated problems by relying on what we think "should" work.

Second, I agree that No Child Left Behind is not a good policy. Why is that politicans leave out the fact that non-performing schools and low test scores are highly correlated with poverty, unemployment, drug use, and broken homes? Schools cannot solve these problems but without progress on these larger, societal problems, schools cannot be entirely successful.

#12 lynn, I think what you will find in RI is the same thing you find in NYC--bad faith bargaining on the part of the state because the feds are backing up its position that it does not really have to talk to teachers.

#16 Susan, wrong Bush administration.

I come from a family of teachers in low performing schools in Ohio. They say that they can barely get through a lesson without being interrupted. They have no support from parents. The teachers can only do so much. My sister's school was closed because of low attendance in a school that serviced a homeless center, a poor apartment complex and a trailer park. They could not make kids attend school. Please quit blaming teachers!!!

What has happened to our vocational schools? Our society has lost the sense and enthusiasm of work well done, in particular of the manual trades and their historic nobility. We thereby have chosen the unwise and contradictory notion to scorn the very work, which is essential to our daily lives. A problem of work ethic lies in the poor schooling of manual tradesmen and contractors. Certification would offer proper educational fundamentals to work in a timely and safe manner. A reliable labor force would reduce excessive expenditures for poor work.

very well said MC

Instead of debating endlessly about the achievement gap we should be talking about the social and emotional development gap that plagues high needs communities and is essential for cognitive development.

TO THE CALLER--DAVID:

WHY DONT WE FIRE THE PARENTS ALONG WITH THE TEACHERS! You fail when your children fail...not just the teachers.

We are ONE country despite the fact that states have certain rights. We need ONE standard. If we use the National tests as that standard, ALL states would need to conform to that standard. Allowing states to set their own standards is POINTLESS! Absolutely pointless!

Everyone wants an easy answer. I think that poverty is the best predictor of how someone does in school. Same for health outcomes. But because poverty is everyone's problem no one wants to really take it on.

ask diane about how much test cheating is going on in nyc

Hi Chuzzlewit. I'm glad that you agree with me. Thank you. And thank you for your kind words. It's not often that the adjective gracious is ascribed to me. Kudos to you for recognising.

I wish I could forget the eight years of the Bush administration they way Diane has. I'd sleep better

As a former teacher, educated at Columbia TC during Lawrence Cremin's tenure, and married to a current teacher in the NYC system, I am very glad to hear what Mrs. Ravitch is saying.

Does she think that politicians calling for the firing of teachers is really a ruse to reduce salaries by eliminating senior teachers so that novices can be hired at the base salary level?

Why is she saying charter schools skim the best students? Don't charter schools take students based on a lottery system?

Teachers not delivering "like in corporate America"???!!!

Does the caller have in mind Wall Street -- rewarded to the tune of TRILLIONS for gross, abject failure?!

something is wrong with this woman: changing her mind on ONE day after supporting a policy? Why didn't she listen to TEACHERS that opposed NCLB?

How do you get rid of bad teachers? I have 2 high school kids and there are quite a few people who should not be teaching and there is NO way to get rid of them.

She's wrong about the RI teacher firings: the teacher's union would not agree to negotiations to extend the school day and take part in additional things to help the school. That's why they were fired.

I also believe she's just looking for a way to slam obama/duncan. If she would examine their policy, it's not the same as the Bush policy she supported.

Running a school is not like running "corporate America."

why does she sound like she's talking through clenched teeth? why so angry?

I applaud you for reexamining the issue, more of our politicians should follow your example. I watch my children's elementary school teachers talk about testing for weeks on end. They make the students nervous and anxious as they want to "please" there teachers by doing well on these test. Since when did education become 2 months of test prep that breed anxious teachers and students. We already have such limited time to teach our children the critical issues. Enough is enough.

I am glad that Diane Ravitch has changed her mind but it may be too little too late.

What methods would she suggest to now rectify the test driven and anti-teacher rhetoric and law now in effect? How would she go about analyzing the issues in individual schools and then implementing individualized solutions to problems?

I was originally enthusiastic about Arne Duncan. I had regarded Obama as weak on this issue from the time he began his run for president but when he tapped Duncan I thought he was headed in the right direction. I'm disappointed.

I'm a progressive who doubted No Child Left Behind, and I welcome enthusiastically Diane Ravitch. May all progressives, moderates and conservatives be as open-minded as she is.

Brava!

#1 Akena....very gracious.

Making lemons out of lemonade. Clever!

some schools are going to 4 day weeks. how bad will this be for education

I wonder whether Diane Ravitch is familiar with a study that came out of Cambridge University a year or so ago. That study called into question the stringent testing-based model that is now in vogue in the US, among both conservatives and moderates (including Arne Duncan and Barack Obama).

That study found that the testing model leaves humanities severely under-served. Moreover, students were found to be suffering problems of stress usually found in adults -- anxiety, high-blood pressure, sleep problems, etc.

Tiny correction. Diane Ravitch DOES have a relation to Richard. They were married and have 2 grown children as well as several grands.

I'm glad when people change their minds because of new information but the people who discredited her position from the first should be on the programme. Instead this "expert" [sic] hack and shill has kept herself in the media glare with her new book. Clever!