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DAT, whine all you want, but Israel successfully foils your islamofascist heroes.

Today I went down to the WTC site to protest the 9/11 mosque.

Here is a link to a GREAT YouTube video by Pat Condell with his take on the 9/11 mosque controversy.

http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

America: The Silence of a Nation and The Signing of a Genocide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elU3etpW-YQ

Israel isn't right, it has never been right.

I'm pretty sure the below discourse is between those who believe Israel should be a country and those who think it should be consumed by Islamists, or at least not by majority Jews.

Here is the Hamas charter, on a Palestinian website (note the hot singles ads...):
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

The frustration reflected below is only fueled by Jews who haven't gotten the memo that most of the world believes that Israel just needs to ... go.

Gaza has been hijacked by hamass which has a worldview not unlike that of fascist Germany.

Take the time to read the hamass charter of 1988, the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed.

Seems that the real Nakba is that the Israelis are not the unarmed Jews of WW2 Europe and the current islamist government of Turkey seems to have forgotten its history from WWI and will be doomed to repeat it.

The American press should have been doing their job and reporting regularly on the conditions in Gaza. Sadly, it took the death of at least 9 activists to finally bring the American people's attention to this humanitarian crisis. Let's hope they didn't die in vain.

I know I'm late to this thread but I just listened to this segment and I'm shocked at how Brian handled it. For someone usually so careful and consciously fair Brian was so biased in favor of Israel it was unbelievable. After a listener called in critiquing Israel he made the point to question the veracity whereas he did not do the same for the pro-Israel callers.

The whole premise of the questions were utterly indifferent to what the Palestinians are living through and more relevantly, the killing of these activists. Muslims can be activists, you know.

It kind of reminded me of Bill Moyers' interview with Richard Goldstone, unfortunately.

This segment really demonstrated the best of the Brian Lehrer Show. It was thought-provoking, informative, in-depth, and well-rounded. Thank you for putting this together!

When the tide pulls out and just the truth is left, the haters will be standing naked, without the devious Jew-Bater PR to hide behind.

This spectacle should put at least one debate to rest: nothing short of the atomic bomb can keep Israel safe.

The USA is directly responsible for every
crime that the Jewish State/Israel commits.
Because we fund them.
When Israel attacks it does so on the
American dime and when Israel gets away
with dropping white phosphorous on men,
women and children in Gaza, attacking Lebanon, the massacre in Sabra & Shatilla,
Deir Yassin,
preventing goods from entering Gaza it does
so, because the USA protects Israel from
the result of such actions.

We are to blame for what Israel has
been doing to people that had nothing
to do with what happened in Nazi Germany,
but were living on land that David Ben Gurion,
Theodore Herzel, etc. wanted for themselves.

Good point a Smith from Brooklyn:

"on most segments Brian successfully pulls off a down the middle broadcast, but it's pretty evident his bias/leaning toward Israel in this instance.. (asking to fact check statements about Hamas while accepting Israeli statements bout the borders, the attack, etc as truth?)."

This is bias plain and simple. Brian has certainly heard countless times on at least BBC and Brian Lerher's show from the likes of Noam Chomsky and Jim Carter the business behind this "acceptance of Israel." Both Brian and Lenny play dumb when they hear things like this and lead guests toward AIPAC talking points they somehow know.

Palestinians have no choice but to accept Israel. It is a bizarre question to ask anyone. None the less they do. Israel does not "accept" Hamas despite it being democratically elected. Israel also does not accept responsibility for crimes per the UN.

This idea that there are "two sides" is just out of control. The only real solution here is a 1 state solution but Israel would not exist if this were so. Brian needs to come back and have experts with real facts speak to this. Israel backs the Palestinians into a corner and makes them scream uncle then changes the rules. It's how they play.

For the amount of Israel and Jewish related programming you would think WNYC would get it right sometimes. Why these issue mean anything to US citizens is beyond me. Our other minority groups deserve at least equal attention.

I was surprised by Brian asking again and again what is the alternative for Israel to prevent Palestinians from launching rockets; in thirst place, it is in reaction to the occupation, so I would have like Brian to ask instead what is the alternative for Palestinians ton end the occupation

When members of the PLO unlawfully boarded the Achille Lauro in 1985, and physically took over that ship in international waters, and then threw Leon Klinghoffer overboard was considered to be an act of terrorism......but......When Israeli commandos unlawfully board a Turkish ship in international waters, shoot and kill 9 Turkish citizens, is considered to be self defense on their part and not ....terrorism.....INCREDIBLE..!!

One last comment, directed to those accusing Brian of pro-Israel bias.

It is perfectly appropriate for a host to make points the guests are NOT making, in the interests of ensuring a full discussion.

Remember, Brian repeatedly said: "The Israelis would argue...." rather that stating the points as fact.

Had there been an Israeli spokesman on the program, I'm sure Brian's approach would have been different.

Gaza is comparable to 1945 Berlin - with a similar Jew hating, Infidel/Non-"Aryan" hating regime.

Simply put, if Israel were "the problem", then Muslims would be living in peace with their non-Muslim neighbors.

Considering that India and Pakistan had a near nuclear war, over land (Kashmir), and terrorists are killing people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Europe (Londons 7/7/05 transport bombings) those attacks put the lie that Israel/palestine are the most pressing issues.

And again, what sort of "peace activists" attack with clubs, knives? Oh yes, "progressive"/leftist/socialist "peace activists.

To those who truly, seriously believe that the inhabitants of Gaza can and should be compared to the Jewish deportees/prisoners of the Warsaw Ghetto, see: http://www.rootsclub.ps/index.php
and here: http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html

I'll say something no one else has: this was an outstanding segment.

There was a sincere attempt to present a diversity of view points rooted in fact. I think many listeners ended up knowing more at the end of the discussion than at the beginning. A few opinions may even have been changed.

And that's the real test. Please do more segments like this. Do not attach too much importance to accusations of bias from the host or guests. It goes with the territory. Sure, there was some heat. But there was also a great deal of light.

Well done.

I am late in posting due to tech difficulties, but I did hear the segment on the way to work, and I thought that Chris Dickey was brilliant.

I am very disappointed in Brian for, as one poster put it, reading the AIPAC talking points. It is just crazy to characterize the flotilla as a "suicide mission," peopled with "suicide bombers." They did not blow themselves up; they were attacked, in international waters, by Israeli commandos. So what if their aim was "propaganda"; as Sara, above, put it, do you think that the freedom riders who sat down at segregated lunch counters in the South, were there to order lunch? Were they on a "suicide mission," because they had reason to believe that they would be brutally arrested? And those arrests were lawful (the laws were evil); in this case, the Israelis attacked the ship in international waters, to enforce a blockade that has been deemed illegal by the U.N. It doesn't matter whether those on the boat were members of the Brotherhood, or came from a variety of groups and backgrounds (which they did -- see yesterday's NYT article). What matters is that they were there to make a political statement, but were met with force. To blame them for defending themselves with clubs -- and when they were legally in the right -- against soldiers armed with machine-guns is to willfully ignore reality.

Dickey rightly said that the key to resolving the crisis lies with Israel. The extremist groups cannot hold sway among Palestinians if Palestinians have a future. That's the bottom line that the Israelis refuse to see.

And Brian, Hamas was elected -- as in voted into office by Palestinians in Gaza. It did not "take over" anything. I am so surprised at you for ignoring or distorting those facts that you don't like.

when israel left gaza, all greenhouses from its flourishing flower and vegetable businesses were left intact specifically so that the new community would benefit economically from the infrastructure. the greenhouses were then systematically dismantled and used as scrap material by the palestinian community. that distructive act ought to be considered when the economy of gaza is being examined.

Edward from Washington Heights AKA pretentious Hudson Heights:

How cares??? It is not germane to this discussion!!!

JP from JP:

KUDOS!

The brutal treatment of the people of Gaza is the policy of hamas. hamas throwing opponents off roofs is your example of a responsible government?

What uniform do hamas terrorists wear to distinguish themselves from REAL civilians - or do hamas terrorists wear civilian clothing to blend in, with the hope of ?

Anyone ever see an "anti-war" demonstration slam al-qada, obl, hamas? Of course not. It would be "counter-revolutionary".

Marc on L.E.S. from Manhattan

US has all but eradicated the American Indian. US were still using slaves when the rest of the Western world outlawed it. US jailed US born Japanese in WWII for just being Japanese decent. US still has an unjust embargo with Cuba. These are heinous acts that I as one man have no control over but I am and will be ashamed of and condemn as an American until the day I die. Sorry but justifying an unjust act just because someone else has done worse does not make it OK. You might think two wrongs make a right but they don’t. Nor does it make me disingenuous as one person to disagree with the existing embargo with Gaza or anywhere else in the world.

Eventual NUCLEAR WEAPONS smuggled through Gaza by Iran, according to Marc from Manhattan. This is the level of absurdity that some may go to jusify, Israel's brutal treament of the people in Gaza.

To Nes Gahas from NYC:
I can only hope that your conflation of Arab-Israelis with Gazan Palestinians is an honest mistake and not a willful misinterpretation of the facts. Whether Arab-Israelis do in fact have full rights in Israel is highly debatable. But for the purposes of the events being discussed here, it is beside the point. One would have to be wildly ignorant or else just plain deceitful to claim that Palestinians living in Gaza enjoy full human and civil rights. They live in what is widely acknowledged by international human rights and humanitarian organizations to be the largest open-air prison on earth.
As for the claim that Arab leadership is schooling Palestinian children to hate Israel ... there's no need for that: Israel is doing the job for them by killing and imprisoning these children's loved ones and forcing the kids themselves to grow up in such utterly hopeless conditions.

Questioning the legality of the Israeli blockade of Gaza by Americans and it's enforcement, is absurd. It shouldn't be necessary to remind any but the disengenuous, that the U.S. placed an embargo against Cuba in 1960 (ostensibly as punishment for expropriating the property of our corporations) and codified that embargo into law as late as 1992 stating that sanctions must remain in place, "so long as it [Cuba] continues to refuse to move toward "democratization and greater respect for human rights".

Let us recall that Cuba never attacked the U.S. mainland with rockets or anything else. Of course our primary fear in the early days was that our "enemy" - the USSR - would strengthen it's toe hold in the hemisphere, and we showed ourselves ready to start WWIII by inderdicting Russian vessels on the high seas to prevent them from introducing more powerful (possibly nuclear weapons) into Cuba.

Now so many Americans (including Jews - to their everlasting shame) are pooh pooh'ing Israel's stated concern that raising their blockade of Gaza exposes them to the grave danger of providing their sworn enemy, Iran, with an open port on their border through which to insert destructive (and eventually nuclear) weapons.

As I heard a TV commentator say recently regarding politicians and morals, "It's rush hour on the hypocrisy highway".

To all "progressives" and pro-hamass activists, please explain why hamass still does not permit the International Red Cross access to Gilad Shalit to verify that he is being treated humanely.

Here is a link to the ICRC webpage.

Gaza: still no ICRC access to Gilad Shalit
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/israel-interview-111208

I guess JS hasn't seen the videos of how the Israelis were brutally beat from the moment they landed aboard the Mavi Marmara. These comment sections are so ridiculous when the show they are commenting on had "reporters" who don't report the whole story, and listeners who lack the information and logic. adios

Christopher Dickey - the principle reason that Egypt maintains the blockade is its current leadership's fear of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which the Hamas is a branch, and very little to do with Israel's pressure or the nature/requirements of their treaty relationship. You are disingenuous, a dissimulator.

As to the Hamas, the evolution of the Brotherhood has its roots in the fascism of Mussolini and Hitler, their doctrine should make any champion of the liberal western enlightenment's blood run cold. The charter of the Hamas quotes the founder of the Brotherhood, the Egyptian school teacher Hassan al-Banna: “Israel will be established and will stay established until Islam nullifies it, as it nullified what was before it.” (nullify can also [here] be translated as obliterate.) Peaceful compromise? Two-state solution? Anyone with preconceived notions regarding the direction, the character, the depth of Islamic hatred towards Israel (and more significantly, the Jewish people) should and must take note. This horror cannot simply be negotiated away in bilateral discussion, it would demand a philosophical metamorphosis.

Sadly, but predictably, the nations of the world appear bent on denouncing the Jewish State, no matter what she does to defend herself. And make no mistake, the people who manned the Mavi Marmara were members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Peace activists, hardly. Convincing the community of nations of this distortion was their first and greatest triumph. The IHH is allied with the Hamas, supported by the Islamist government of Turkey (don't believe for an instant that Attaturk would have stood idle while they have become the dominant political force in his modern, secular state) and as an organization involved in “public welfare” have assisted in subsidizing the families of suicide bombers. Clearly, their intent is anything but peaceful.

One last comment, perhaps a bit further afield, but still applicable: Elena Bonner, Andrei Sakharov's widow speaking before the Freedom Forum last year: "...during the two years that Schalit has been held by terrorists, the world human rights community has done nothing for his release. Why? He is a wounded soldier, and fully falls under the protection of the Geneva Conventions. The conventions say clearly that hostage taking is prohibited, that representatives of the Red Cross must be allowed to see prisoners of war, especially wounded prisoners, and there is much else written about Schalit's rights...Do human rights activists also fail to recall the fundamental international rights documents?

And yet I still think that the tiny, but real step toward peace must become the release of Schalit...

Returning to my question of why human rights activists are silent, I can find no answer except that Schalit is an Israeli soldier, Schalit is a Jew. So again, conscious or unconscious anti-Semitism. Again, it is fascism."

ag from n........i use the word thug only to mock the spin the isreali gov't. puts on their victims... i go by the score card to reach my conclusions not bull s.propaganda....carl scala

Israeli actions have the familiar ring of the Somali pirates.

If Israel in it's blockade of Gaza isn't denying medicine, medical equipment and foodstuffs, then why are 60% of the children in Gaza suffering from Anemia....60%!!!

One of the on-air guests said that hamass said it is willing to have a truce if Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.

I just googled "hamas charter" written in 1988 (the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed, resulting in the deaths of 270 people) and then used the Find command to search for "67".

The only line containing "67" is this...

"We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."

So the guests claim is FALSE.

BTW, Muslims still control their mosque, the Al Aska mosque, demonstrating that Israel supports religious freedom, a right DENIED by hamass, saudi arabia, etc.

to Sara from Pelham,
The Palestinians are not equivalent to the African Americans of the segregated Deep South. Arab-Israeli citizens have their rights as Israelis. But the Arab leaders choose to educate their populace to hate Jews; they use the issue of "Palestine" to fight against Israel's right to exist.

Whatever happened to "Killing civilians is wrong?" Israel attacks an aid ship in international waters and now we can all have a debate about Israel's security concerns, whether they were provoked, who wins the propaganda war, etc.? Sorry, but the moment they opened fire, Israel lost my sympathy. This reminds me, sadly, of the U.S. policy of "pre-emptive war" that got us into a protracted mess in Iraq. The road to so-called "security" always seems to be piled high with corpses, doesn't it? I am sick and tired, frankly, of militaristic governments justifying their barbarism in the name of "defense."

The Terrible Jewish Siege of Gaza:

"Nu, so can I get you maybe something to eat? Have enough water and electricity? Are you comfortable, boobele?"

The Terrible Jewish Genocide of Palestinians:

"Oh, you had 8 babies in Soroka Hospital in Beersheva? Mazel tov! May they live and be well, only they shouldn't throw stones or shoot rockets at our boys. Play nice, okay?"

Ed, maybe international monitors of incoming shipments would work better than squeezing over 1.5 million people into an even smaller space!

Really.

Sam J from Rutgers
Welcome to AIPAC’s good works: keep the American media muzzled. But not worry, Israel is going the way of Old South Africa: a raciest, apartheid state with lots of Bantustan prisons. Ha, ha, ha.

CORRECTION to my 10:51 AM post:

I suggested googling " Emily Hocchenowicz".

Unfortuantely, I misspelled her name,

Google "Emily Henochowicz"

Just caught the very end of the segment, in which you asked for alternatives to the blockade. Here's one: Israel should erect a movable security fence along its border with Gaza. It could lift the blockade, but announce that for each rocket fired into Israel from Gaza, or other terrorist attack in Israel or on Israeli interests coming from Gaza, the wall will be moved a given distance into Gaza, thereby effectively reducing its land area. This would be a non-miltary reaction that would place the onus on controlling terrorists on the Palestinians themselves, rather than the traditional disproportionate military response Israel has employed in the past -- a reaction that has cost it in PR terms around the world. The Israelis could state that the wall could be moved back if there is a peace accord or a given period of time with no terrorist attacks. The important point is that the penalty would be known in advance and the responsibilty for consequences would clearly be seen as being caused by the Palestinians, not the result of some some alleged bloodlust by the Israelis that take innocent civilian lives.

There is no logical discussion with zionist, uzi-toting religious nut jobs.

Enough with the historical rhetoric and religious zealotry!

What are you going to do about the problem at hand????

Please at lease TRY to be productive!

Someone called in and said the Palestinians are indoctrinated in hate as children. I'm afraid the Israelis and their Jewish American supporters are indoctrinated in hatred too. And they defend whatever atrocities are done in their names without question. You can see examples posted here. That's why this will never end.

AG --

re Turkey's launch starting in Cyprus -- brilliant little point, esp. if the post 1964 "current political status" section of Cyprus is true...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

On somewhat related subject, a book called "Cairo to Damascus" by John Roy Carlson is one of the most interesting and provocative I've read, it includes Israel and Turkey as the author was Turkish I believe. This author lived among the Arab soldiers during the jihads taking place on Israel in 1948

Patrick Langhenry, I agree with you that it is a flaw for Brian (and most other public radio programs) to interview other journalists rather than having real experts and eyewitnesses.

If you have "moderate" journalists interviewing other "moderate" journalists, you're in the bubble of "moderate" thinking.

Hey "Palestinians." ISrael is JEWISH LAND! Israel is not Khaybar. Khaybar fell because it was on Arab land. But "Palestine" fell because if was on JEWISH LAND! See the difference? "Palestine" shall not arise again on Jewish soil! God Bless Israel!

Just how pro-Israel can you be whilst posing as a fair arbiter in this debate? It's infuriating and brings up the 'Rocky' instinct to root for the underdog and beat up all things 'bully'. Why not have some balls and HOST SOMEONE ON YOUR SHOW LIKE FORMER US AMBASSADOR EDWARD PECK WHO ACTUALLY WAS THERE ?

I can understand Nes's point. the Turks that fought could possibly be the extremist muslims of Turkey that their people can't seem to get rid of b/c of the current, unfortunate pro islam government.

that part really sucks, so who's to say how Turkey would have reacted if the gov was more western like before. BUT that doesn't mean that most of what israel is doing is ok. Not everything Israel is doing is horrible, like the people seem cool, but the gov is REALLY screwing up, and that needs to be exposed.

Zanton, it's unfortunate that you would refer to the victims, the Palestinians in Gaza as Neo-Nazi's. Taking into consideration that Israel's treatment of the people in Gaza, bare a striking similarity to the way that Jews were treated in the Warsaw Ghetto.

I bet BP would like the deal Israel is getting from the US govt!

From The Guardian aticle about the US watering down the UN call for an investigation:

"Turkey pressed for the security council to launch an investigation similar to Richard Goldstone's inquiry into last year's fighting in Gaza which prompted protests from Israel when it concluded that Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

.... in hours of diplomatic wrangling, the US blocked the move and instead forced a statement that called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards". The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation."

Just substitute a few words in the Guardian article:

"Gulf Coast residents and officials pressed for the Justice Department to launch an investigation similar to Richard Goldstone’s inquiry into last year’s fighting in Gaza which prompted protests from Israel when it concluded that Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. . . .

But in hours of wrangling, the Obama administration blocked the move and instead forced a statement that called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards". The Justice Department representative at the discussions, Eric Holder, indicated that Washington would be satisfied with BP investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Gotta love that whole double standard thing: Imagine if Iran had done this to some international activists!

I could not believe that your two guests were journalists after I first tuned in. Neither seemed to have seen the videos released by the Israeli government showing how the Israeli soldiers were attacked with deadly force the moment they boarded the ship. Both seemed to have a bias in favor of the Palestinians. After Tavernese left the discussion, Dickey's bias stunned me, as he asserted that the Israelis are themselves to blame for the terrorist attacks being mounted on them from Gaza. This is anything but journalistic detachment, as it completely disregards one side of the story, not to mention the only moral one out of the two.

I (usually) love the BL show, because of its (usually) balanced content & commentary. But this segment contained some astonishingly biased and unfair comments by the host, which saddens and suprises me.

The jihadist on the boats were referring to Israel as "Khaybar." For those who don't know, Khaybar was the name of a Jewish fortress in Arabia that was defeated, and the Jewish tribes were decapitated, enslaved and ethnically cleansed from the Hijaz by Muhammad. For 500 years, Jewish immigrants from Judea after the Roman destruction, had lived peacefully amongst the pagan Arabs of the Hijaz. That was until the advent of Islam, and today no Jew or Christian has the right to permanent residence in Mecca or Medina. and the Hijaz which also included Jordan.

Why not h I? Is it because the Cypriot people are peaceful in their occupation that I can not compare the two? Is occupation wrong or is it OK? If it is wrong, like Turkey now suddenly claims, they should withdraw the troops from a sovereign country. At least Israel is recognized by most of the rest of the world...... The "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus"?.....not so............

Link to Gothamist about assault on Emily Hocchenowicz:

http://gothamist.com/2010/06/01/cooper_union_student_loses_eye_in_w.php

Her blog:

http://thirstypixels.blogspot.com/

Or just google. Warning: Some of the photos are disturbing, Which happens when an eye is taken out, eye socket bones are smashed.

Dear Brian.
Of course, every body is sympathized with the under dog.
Christopher dick is either very naïve or vey ignorant

Chris Dickey you were brilliant. All true, poor Brian so uninformed reading from his AIPAC talking points came across as an ignoramous. I called to pledge for his show, long wait, glad I didnt.

producers- this subject matter is a bit too heavy for me...any chance of a segment with a south african golfer to lighten the mood?

Any mention of the assault on a NYC art student, Emily Honenchowicz, observing a small demonstration by Palestinian women against the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

She was standing about 30 feet from the actual demonstration and Israeli border police fired several tear gas canisters directly at her: two went to each side of her, and then the third hit her in the face.

She has lost her left eye --kinda bad for an artist who might want to use perspective, no?

The NYTimes does mention her -- in one of its blogs. On line only. Nothing about her in the paper. But--three years ago, when she posted a video explaining how she'd lost her faith in a god, they did mention her!! Priorities, Gray Lady.

The Gothamist has article, Boston Herald, AP, some out of state and out of town papers. But not the biggies where she was a student...until a semester or year abroad.

What happened, did I violate WNYC posting policy by saying that Brian is a liberal who is trying too hard to please the center, and that WNYC listeners would get news more like they want from http://www.democracynow.org/ ?

AG, are you kidding?
you're going to compare Gaza w Cypress?

nice try..

So now it's all Egypt's fault? Ridiculous.

Bibi has turned the world against Israel. He's insane.

People of Israel - save your country - do the right thing.

Justified or not, boarding a boat of suspected armed terrorists with paint ball guns is not only unprofessional but down right dangerous and foolish. Again US Coast Guard boards heavily armed ships all the time and they are not carrying paint ball guns. They carry real guns and people don’t die.

Sally, good comment
"if it was a muslim group raiding the ship" brilliant.

anyone else find it ironic that the Turkish Flotilla left from a port in a country THEY ARE OCCUPYING to help a country that is being occupied by Israel???

If Turkey was so sympathetic they would withdraw their troops from Cyprus and END THEIR OCCUPATION!!!!!!

I just wanted to point out that the the rhetoric of indignation we keep hearing from Israel and its supporters -- "Clearly their main aim was not to bring in aid, it was to break the blockade!" -- is a bit daft. OF COURSE breaking the blockade was the main aim of the convoy. But why is that being framed as an illegitimate goal? Do you think that the African Americans who sat down at "white only" lunch counters in the Deep South during the '60's were there to order lunch?

CAN WE PLEASE STAY ON POINT???

THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF WHAT HAPPENED TO A FLOTILLA OF UNARMED HUMANITARIAN ACTIVISTS.

ISREAL KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE, AGAIN.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS!

Israel should end the war the way the US and Russia and Britain ended WWII. You level the enemy cities and bring the enemy to his knees. Hitler committed suicide, as did his cohorts. Surrender or martyrdom. Should Israel be the one to surrender instead,

And there were no "'67 borders" but only the 1949 ARMISTICE LINES. The Arabs neither recognized the right of the Jewish State of Israel to exist, and certainly never recognized the 1949 Armistice lines as borders. So that lie should be also exposed, the lie of the "67 borders."

The "western" concepts of economy, democracy are not the concepts held by Hamas and the Islam that they preach. The blockade is not the problem it is Hamas who is not interested in peace but in taking over all of Israel.

I just wanted to point out that the the rhetoric of indignation we keep hearing from Israel and it's supporters -- "Clearly their main aim was not to bring in aid, it was to break the blockade!" -- is a bit daft. OF COURSE breaking the blockade was the main aim of the convoy. But why is that being framed as an illegitimate goal? Do you think that the African Americans who sat down at "white only" lunch counters in the Deep South during the '60's were there to order lunch?

There were six boats in the flotilla and 5 were peacefully diverted to Israel's Ashdod harbor. Aboard the Marmara, however, were not only "peace activists" but also many Turkish hard-line Islamists who were prepared for provocation. After refusing to go peacefully to Ashdod, they attacked the Israelis as they descended by rope. The Israelis were not expecting violent opposition; they were armed only with paintgun rifles and with pistols, which they used only after they were overwhelmed and attacked. The IDF videos and stories hold together. Good sources: http://www.palwatch.org/
www.dailyalert.org
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htm

I would like someone to comment on the arbitrary list of prohibited food items. Canned fruit? Seeds and nuts? How can Israel possibly justify a ban on these basic necessities?

There were six boats in the flotilla and 5 were peacefully diverted to Israel's Ashdod harbor. Aboard the Marmara, however, were not only "peace activists" but also many Turkish hard-line Islamists who were prepared for provocation. After refusing to go peacefully to Ashdod, they attacked the Israelis as they descended by rope. The Israelis were not expecting violent opposition; they were armed only with paintgun rifles and with pistols, which they used only after they were overwhelmed and attacked. The IDF videos and stories hold together. Good sources: http://www.palwatch.org/
www.dailyalert.org
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htm

how can one be called a terrorist if they are defending their nation?
was george washington also a terrorist?

The Israeli attack on the Free Gaza ships is casting new attention on the basic issues of the blockade and Israel's claims of acting only to maintain its security.
The missiles shot from Gaza into Israeli towns over the years are cited as iron-clad proof of Hamas guilt and Israeli innocence.

What is never pointed out by the media in NY and the USA is that during the time that small, ineffective missiles were shot from Gaza into Israel, Israel was bombing and raiding Gaza, killing over a thousand people. During this same time the missiles from Gaza killed less than 50.

It's like reporting on a boxing match and only reporting the punches by one of the fighters.

There were six boats in the flotilla and 5 were peacefully diverted to Israel's Ashdod harbor. Aboard the Marmara, however, were not only "peace activists" but also many Turkish hard-line Islamists who were prepared for provocation. After refusing to go peacefully to Ashdod, they attacked the Israelis as they descended by rope. The Israelis were not expecting violent opposition; they were armed only with paintgun rifles and with pistols, which they used only after they were overwhelmed and attacked. The IDF videos and stories hold together. Good sources: http://www.palwatch.org/
www.dailyalert.org
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htm

very polarizing topic, and tough to listen to this segment...on most segments Brian successfully pulls off a down the middle broadcast, but it's pretty evident his bias/leaning toward Israel in this instance.. (asking to fact check statements about Hamas while accepting Israeli statements bout the borders, the attack, etc as truth?).

Again, a very polarizing topic, so it's tough not to be on one side or the other, but I would hope Brian would be able to do a better job of at least trying to keep it down the middle.

Those who clamor for Israel to return those lands to the Palestenians should really demand that those lands be returned to Jordan and Egypt since these countries had sovereign authority of the territories between 1948 and 1967. Ironically, however, it was Israel that was willing to negotiate for a Palestenian state in those territories in 2000, under the Clinton Administration with Ehud Barak as Prime Minister. But, once again, the Palestenians, under Arafat, passed on the opportunity for a state when they rejected the negotiating process and instead opted for a second Intifada which destroyed Israeli sentiments favoring withdrawal from the territories and an independent Palestenian state.

Throughout this conflict, and specifically since Israel withdrew from Gaza, if the Palestenians in general and Hamas in particular had focused their resources on actually building a state instead of waking up every morning and fixating on how they could destroy Israel, they would have had a flourishing state a long time ago. After Israel withdrew from Gaza, Hamas attacked the border town Sderot with daily rounds of rocket fire. Should Israel have sent them flowers with a thank you note?

Why isn't a 1 state solution talked about.

Brian you are embarrassingly biased. Israel puts their enemies in a corner and damn them if they do and damn them if they don't. Accept us, they do and then Israel says "they need to accept" the "legitimacy."

It's CRAZY. The UN wants Israel to do things but Israel doesn't . Why can't Israel abide those rules when it wants to instate it's own!

This incident is part of a larger confrontation and to try to extract it from that context distorts any meaning that might be taken from it. As long as the Israeli government engages in an ongoing, quiet policy of illegal expropriation of Palestinian land in the West Bank and Jerusalem there will never be peace in the area. The division of the Palestinians into Gaza and the West Bank is part of this policy that keeps the Palestinians too weak and fractured to be able to make a strong, united internal government or appeal to the world community on their irrefutable situation as a captive people. As long as the US government acquiesces to that policy, the US will be seen as a hostile force by the vast majority of the people in the area.

dead thugs? your coments are moribund and beyond foolish -carl

this moderator is removing all comments saying that brian is pro-israel.

isn't this National PUBLIC Radio?

Part II:
The Palestenians could have had their own state in 1948, when the British rule over the land ended, and when the United Nations voted for the partition plan that divided the land into a Jewish state and a Palestenian state. The Jews accepted the plan. In contrast, the Arabs rejected the plan and instead, initiated a war which they ultimately lost, and which created the refugee problems that exist today. Indeed, it was the Arabs’ prerogative to reject the partition plan and gamble that they would win. But, having lost, they cannot change the rules of the game in which they participated. The Arabs and the media constantly refers to the creation of the state of Israel as the cause of the Palestenians' fate, but they ignore the facts of 1948 which would lay the blame on the Arab leaders who rejected the partition plan, and the Palestenian state at that time.

Furthermore, between 1948 and 1967, the West Bank and Gaza were under the rule of Jordan and Egypt, respectively. I don’t recall that Jordan or Gaza had found it in their hearts to give the Palestenians a state on those lands during that time. These historical facts are conspicuously and consistently absent from the media narratives.

Get it yet, Brian!?

Re: planting evidence -- or creating propaganda.

A site says unequivocally that the Isreali gov't has photoshopped "proof" of "arms" on board the boats. Also, kitchen knives (from the ships' kitchens?), an axe, and an electric circular saw were shown as "weapons." However, some of the photos have digital records of being photographed years earlier! And, in some of the Israeli videos, there are shots showing full sunlight and a man holding a ceremonial knife.

I don't know enough about digging out digital trails to know if this site is accurately accusing Israel of photoshopping evidence.

Can anyone here tell if this site is accurate? Or...? Thanks for any who can inform me on this.

LINK:

http://ibnkafkasobiterdicta.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/gaza-flotilla-how-israels-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-fakes-photos-of-seized-weapons/

Isn't it pointless to discuss this endless conflict? It isn't news. What's happening in N.Korea?

Unjustly imprisoned people try to escape. Shocking.

To Whom it may concern:

I am outraged at the fact - the prevalent trope in US media - to ignore the voice of the oppressed and instead rely on pundits and armchair scholastic. In the case of Gaza and the aid flottila why not interview a [caged] Gazan? or a survivor of the Israeli raid? It is shameful that as the world speaks out against this atrocity that the US media regurgitates Netanyahu's malodorous anti-Arab, anti-Iranian rhetoric while putting aside the Palestinian voice.

A vehement listener
Sam J

Part I:

With respect to the raid, Israel intended to send the aid to Gaza from Ashdod once it determined that no weapons were on board. All the activists had to do was allow for inspection. They intentionally provoked the Israelis, and stupidly, the Israelis played into their hands. If these activists really wish to aid the Palestenians, they should work on Hamas to renounce its vow to destroy Israel.

Dude Lenny! You know it and you've heard it on Brians show. Hamas does accept the legitimacy of Israel! The problem is Israel does not accept Hamas!

This is bunk dude!

How can your guests say that there was not intent to provoke violence?

Video of the "peace activists" days before the incident evoking the killing of Jews: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

Brian Lehrer apparently doesn't know that the blockade was established to punish Gazans for voting in Hamas, in a democratically held election.

Rather amazing, this lack of knowledge.

Your guest is mistaken. It is an Egyptian blockade as well.

Finally!

If this had been the reverse and a Muslim group/country had raided a ship in international waters it would be covered and reacted upon in a much different way.

This issue points to the fact that our media and politics are biased toward Israel.

The Arabs started the wars against the Jewish state in 1948. My father ended WWII by storming Berlin with the Red Army, and the US ended it with Japan by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Muslim war to destroy the Jewish state will never end, until Israel or the Muslim aggressors are broken and brought to their knees.

So a nuclear war is inevitable. It's just a question of whether Israel lets itself be destroyed, or if it chooses to destroy it's mortal enemies. Islam will never recognize a Jewish state. It's anathema to Islam for Jew or Christians to have a non-Muslim state on "Islamic soil." No such thing as Jewish soil, but only Islamic soil according to Hamas.

Finally we can criticize Israel with out hearing cries of Anti-Semitism whos goal is to silence freedom of speech. This dialogue is important to the peace process over there. Good job flotilla activists.!

Why cannot we put this in simple terms. Israel and Turkey are not at war. According to international law, boarding a ship in international waters is simply piracy. They Yemani's do it and it is pira

Here are Israeli's alternative:

Realize what you are doing is WRONG and STOP. Just because you suffered DOES NOT mean you a have a right to inflict suffering on others. STOP

Krr, remember we live in NY. Progressive on everything but he Middle East. A nice hypocritical mix.

-re: laws of high seas, see yesterdays NPR story (short answer it is legal if they're intent is to violate a standard blockade)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127373370

-I believe this was the 6th or 7th ship they boarded to take over. The others went peacefully without incident. This suggests that something different or unexpected happened with this one.

Get to the SOURCE of the problem. Here's how to end the embargo in Gaza and improve the quality of life for the people of Gaza:

The international community should pressure Hamas to accept Israel as a Jewish state and live in peace. Gazans could have proved themselves and built a state when Israel dismantled their communities, at great emotional & economic cost to Israel. Instead, the Gazans voted in a terrorist government, tore down greenhouses and set up rocket launchers aimed at Israel.

Starving in Gaza? According to the UN, 68% of childrer are suffering from anemia, due to restriction of foodstuffs.

Water filtration? We, the US gov't, even under Clinton, pulled this game: Something in water filtration can be used to some bad end, therefore water cannot be filtered.

Therefore, people, especially the very young, very old, and ill, DIE or suffer long illnesses.

Way to go, Peace Prize Prez!

The show lacked depth and perspective. It was inundated with rhetoric and unsubstantiated allegations. How could Lehrer not have a guest who was on one of the boats or someone like Dennis Halliday, who is on the Rachel Corrie boat making its way to Gaza? How does he fail to have a legal expert on international law, rather than two reporters, who have their own perspective.

Everyone keeps trying to frame this as a Turkish vs. Israeli event, when the flotilla was organized (like the 8 others before it) by the Free Gaza Movement, an international organization, with no one from Turkey on the board, or board of advisors.

There were activists from 40 different countries in the flotilla, including several medical personnel, who are desperately needed in Gaza.

HB From woodside, Thanks. Not only did the Israeli government engage in piracy on the high seas. It looks like the goods on board ship is being treat as booty. In short the Israeli government has stolen it.

The Israelis should do this the old school way. A surface warship approaches and signals: "Heave to and be boarded or we will fire on you." It's the blockade runner's choice what happens next. All this high tech commando complication is just asking for trouble.

Dead; One American citizen, eight Turkish citizens. Via report from Turkey read over air on Democracy Now this morning -- I haven't googled in about an hour, so don't know if info is reported elsewhere.

Autopsy of the American, a 19-yr old man of Turkish descent, shows 4 shots to the head, one to the chest.

Proportionate???

Everyone keeps trying to frame this as a Turkish vs. Israeli event, when the flotilla was organized (like the 8 others before it) by the Free Gaza Movement, an international organization, with no one from Turkey on the board, or board of advisors.

There were activists from 40 different countries in the flotilla, including several medical personnel, who are desperately needed in Gaza.

Paint guns?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!???

WHAT LUDICROUS NONSENSE WILL THE ISRAELI PROPAGANDA MACHINE COME UP WITH NEXT.

ABSURD!!!

PJ,

Are you kidding? How nice are the drug runners down in Mexico right now? Helping the innocent local community and not brutally torturing and killing them by the hundreds if not thousands? These are the same people. Have you been under a rock for the last 40 years of the war on drugs? Its only gotten more violent, not less…. These guys will kill anyone that gets in their way, even each other….

And yes, the US Coast Guard has to bring them in alive to interrogate and prosecute to get at bigger king pins. It doesn’t pay off to kill them when they have a lot of logistical information. When was the last time you heard a major drug runner was intentionally gunned down in the US? They are worth far more alive then dead.

Soubie asks: "Where is the calculated act of violence by the activists? WHERE?"

Well, over here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

Alleged security camera video from the Mavi Marmara shows the protesters prepping for a rumble with rods and gas masks. They are clearly looking forward to a fight.

I don't blame the commandos, they had to protect themselves just as the occupants on the boat did as well if the felt threatened. They should have never been put in that position to begin with.

The problem was the decision to send masked commandos in the middle of the night. What did the IDF think was going to happen, Ehud Barack should resign immediately.

Israel should have SUNK all those "humanitarian assistance" ships. The Gazans are JIHADI ENEMIES of Israel. Why should Israel allow "aid" to the neo-nazis who seek to commit genocide against them? Justice and human decency demand that the tyrannical monster state of Hamasistan be conquered and DESTROYED.

Israel's Likud Party behaves much like the Protestant Ascendency (late 1600's through the early 20th century) in Ireland.

thugs- 9 dead----- isreali soldiers dead-0................how is it that all the so called bad guys are the ones who always do all the dying........i wonder if pals. have eyes.......i never saw one........when ever there is a shot out, the pals. never hit anything.....i must come to the conclusion that if they do have eyes, then they have guns with no bullets ......... carl s.

I am very disappointed by this conversation. Every time I hear the "they asked for it" justification I feel physically ill. Israeli military boarded a ship in international waters and 10 activists were shot dead. Those are just the facts on the ground. If this was any other country I believe it would be rightfully described as a massacre. It takes extreme mental gymnastics to justify what happened to the activists bringing supplies to a region entirely shut off from the world by Israel. It sounds very similar to the abuser’s justification for beating their partner/spouse: “oh, my significant other provoked me so I had to beat him/her – they knew I was irrational and violent so the fact that they were harmed is their own fault.”

maybe they the activists are pro human being. why do you to couch it as ony pro hamas?

Brian I think you are normally a fairly reasonable commentator and interviewer but I am appalled by your suggestion that 6 ships of people were on, a "suicide mission," or participating in a, "calculated act of violence." Kudos to Ms. Tavernise for strenuously objecting to your statements.

People were tweeting about it as it happened. Check Twitter.

There were thousands of us watching the live feed from the ship.

With out a Palestinian state there is nothing to hope for but more violence.
The exponential growth of the Palestinian population will force Israel to spent huge amount of resources in guarding prisons camp Gaza and West Bank. Welcome come to hell.

Whatever happened to "passive resistance," which worked for Gandhi and the Civil Rights movement? This was a calculated act of violence to provoke violence. It's tragic that people got killed, but more "martyrs" for the terrorist cause.

I tuned in just as Chris Dickey was discussing several facts regarding the raid which I have heard directly contradicted in other media reports (but I don't have the cites available): 1. the only live ammo the Israeli commandos carried was in/for their side arms; they were not carrying automatic weapons, but instead paintball guns; 2. The ship on which the violence occurred had a group live-streaming all the events from the bow of the ship. They were clearly aware of everything that was about to happen - they had lighting fixtures in place, put on gas masks BEFORE the arrival of the commandos, and armed themselves with pieces of rebar. Have you looked at their video?

Now we're making up stuff. Who's this guy? Yeah Israel supplies aid every day. Contrary to Bernie's suggestion that you should be covering this story, this is not the place to cover this story.

Two questions:

Why does the US continue to tolerate and finance this Israeli aggression?

Why is it considered to be anti-semitic to be critical of Israel?

First call: Hasbrah.

The whole "international waters" argument seems to me to be a bit of a red herring. From a legal standpoint, this is a valid argument, however, in a casual discussion about the raid, it seems analogous to asserting that Al Capone was simply a man who evaded his taxes. In other words, as far as the law is concerned, this was just a boat in international waters with no necessary intention of breaking the blockade. However, everyone on both sides of the issue agrees that the flotilla intended to sail to Gaza illegally, just as everyone agrees that Al Capone was a mobster and not just a tax evader.

"Calculated act of violence" by flotilla? What are you talking about?!?

I watched it live from the ship's camera - they retreated after the first contact with the Israelis, they were attacked hours later. You could here the shots BEFORE seeing the commandos board the ships. Where is the calculated act of violence by the activists? WHERE?

Blockade? Ha! My father was at the Seige of Leningrad, when getting dog meat was a treat, and even cannibalism was rife. What blockade?
Gazans have no idea what a siege really is.

When I lived in Beersheba and worked outside of Sderot, 25,000 Gazans used to come into Israel every day to work and get free health care. Gaza was prosperous. My ex-father in law would bring in his car into Gaza garage for routine service or repairs to save money. Then came the intifada, and the Arabs there shot themselves in the leg.
The Palestinians have brought it all on themselves.

Israel was, reasonably so, suspicious that the ship contained terrorists and weapons – offered to unload the ship, where the cargo would be inspected and then delivered to needy Gazans.

The operators of the ship refused.

Israel sent repeated requests for the boat to change course. The response: "Negative, negative."

Re Turkey: Learn about The Armenian Genocide in 1915. Turkey still denies this ever occurred. They killed approx. 1.5 million Armenians. In the wake of Turkey's recent aggression against Israel's sovereignty, learn... about the Genocide that put the word "Genocide" into the dictionary for the first time.

can we ever question the legitimacy of the blockade of gaza? why doesn't the rest of the world blockade israel? and can we ever question the existence of israel and the question of whether it's a legitimate state or not in the first place?

Why are we wasting time and money with this. Israel was wrong... again. They overreacted and now they're lying about it. If those were "terrorists" Israel's word, they why did they not attack the soldiers before they got aboard the ship, while in the air on those ropes? Baloney. The new 1000 eyes for an eye!

Learning lots about Turkey!

Embarrassing... Professional soldiers from the most powerful military in the middle east can't take 6 ships run by civilians armed with deck chairs and pipes---without killing people.

These kind of incidents harm Israel a lot more than dinky Hamas rockets ever could.

One factual correction. Dickey said the Israelis had M16s. That doesn't seem correct. Israel claims the soldiers carried paintball guns and personal handguns and I haven't seen anyone dispute that.

The blockade can never be legitimate because the occupation isn't (neither, some would say, the state). Israel is a rogue state, intent on doing whatever they'd damn well please, and strangling these people by denying them a humane existence. It makes me sad to see the level support, and whitewashing that Israel gets. It's laughable that "the Obama admin has clearly backed away from supporting Israel." considering the mention of "investigation" was followed by the suggestion that Israel themselves do it.

The Guardian is reporting this:
"The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel. ...

But in hours of diplomatic wrangling, the US blocked the move and instead forced a statement that called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards". The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

The flotilla was political in it's mission. Apparently much of the medical supplies were expired.

In 2009 alone, more than 738,000 tons of food and supplies entered Gaza.

There is a great documentary on You Tube called 'Gaza We Are Coming'. It shows a group that initially attempted to run the blockade with ships.

Hot Tomorrow:

Where is the contraband that required the death of 9 human beings?

Where are the weapons?

The 9 were unarmed and attacked in INTERNATIONAL waters!!!

One problem I find is that the issues in the Middle East are too often seen primarily through the prism of Israeli security concerns - and I notice that is the starting point of your program. Of course Israel has legitimate security concerns, but in the US it seems that, by comparison, we very rarely look at the issues through the prism of Palestinian security concerns. BOTH sides have to be taken into account - if you constantly look from the Israeli perspective you get a distortion. For example, it's perfectly arguable that Israel is a far greater security threat to Gaza than vice versa - far more Palestinians are killed by Israeli military activity than the number of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets - by a huge factor.

Are you kidding me??? People are massacred in International waters by the Israel military and you ask how can Israel protect itself?

jp -- are you sure those nice drug runners are fighting back? and are you sure the us coast guard isn't killing anyone?

I hope this segment doesn't turn out to be a sham. Remember John Kerry having to intervene with Israeli authorities so that Gazans could receive "pasta". Ludicrous.

So, now we find out a American citizen is among one of the dead from the Israeli commando raid. Maybe now U.S. politicians like Biden will stop falling over one another in a rush to be apologists for Israel.

Bryan, lets get real please. The 3 yr blockade of Gaza is all about collective punishment. No way, no how - can Hamas be seen as running the territory effectively, hence the blockade to make Gazans suffer. Yes, as a bonus - weapons are kept out, but the primary focus of the blockade is to squeeze Hamas - a policy that is pointedly not working.

Why is that the security of Israel is paramount to that of the Palestinians? Why is that no one monitor what arrive at the Port of Haifa -- the plane, tanks, guns, etc., that are used to attack and oppress the Palestinians? Do Palestinian's security not matter?

US Coast Guard hunts down very heavily armed drug runners in fast boats built to evade radar and the drug runners shoot long before being boarded. It happens almost every day down in the Gulf and the US Coast Guard does it without killing anyone and in a far more chaotic and violent environment. So why did Israel kill so many people?

Don't the Turks and Arabs have sympathy that the Israel's citizens are under threat from Arab rockets -- 10,000 fired over the past few years -- and they want to make sure that nothing is on those boats that can be used for making violence? It's almost as if these Arabs don't WANT there to be an Israel. So confusing!