wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

I can't find the page for this comment on the Green Economic damage, but- you really needed to "drill down" on some of those "facts" being presented in that woman's interview- an 88mpg Ford Fiesta? Get real. Her facts seemed to dissipate as you asked the simplest of follow up questions like "what kind of engine?" Seemed like a fabrication without even a feeble attempt at reality testing.

As a former immigration lawyer, I'm often struck by people who say "why don't they come in legally like my grandparents did at Ellis Island." The law has changed since then, and coming here to work now may be legally impossible, or possible but take many years. I worked with one person after another who was trying to do the right thing, but there was no route open. Would-be immigrants fleeing starvation or unrest at home must either have immediate family legally here or show there is no one here legally who can do the same job. Could our grandparents, fleeing pogroms or famine, have done the same?

Re.- off-the-bks. payments:
Any employer who doesn't require a SS/TID (virtually all day-workers have one or the other of them) and who doesn't pay withholding, etc., to the gov't. is a fool who is guilty of knowingly hiring an illegal. Since most employers of day-workers do pay to the gov't., and since most day-workers never collect on entitlements, the gov't. is the financially richer for them.

nancy-
yes, that's what i'm saying. in all trades and all ethnicities. most guys and gals who work in construction get paid off the books, don't pay taxes and certainly don't have health benefits or workers comp.. most contractors will have an employee or two on the books for show but most are not. most choose not to be. and it's not because contractors are evil, exploitative people- it's beacuse they have to if they want to stay afloat. there are a million reasons why they are forced to do this....unions are on of them. most liberals blindly support unions in every capacity but they do as much harm as good. and for the record, i consider myself a liberal.

Bernie: I don't get your point. Are you saying most of the legal non-union construction workers don't pay taxes or have health or worker comp benefits. If that is the case it is also, illegal. Every one who lives or works in this city sees the illegal worker issues going on in the restaurant and bar business. I was just commenting on the additional situation I see each morning since I live outside the city. I guess cash is what really allows all of this to go on.

What a breath of fresh air to hear a conversation on illegal immigration with real experts who know what they're talking about! I want to add to the mix the fact that a couple of decades ago, when the Irish comprised the largest group by far of illegals in NY, there was no hue and cry. Put that in your pipe and and smoke it.

nancy- here's why the contractors pick up the guys on the corner- they need the workers.
most of the construction business is non-union and most is off the books, no matter what your ethnicity is or or what your legal status is. these guys make decent money and most send it home, out of this country. that is their right, it's their money and they earned it. but so you know, this isn't just in the construction business- it's the same in every restaurant and bar in nyc.
most of the commenters here and the brian's two guests are naive, book smart people who have no idea how this underground economy works.

SUSAN, I read it and there are a couple paragraphs that clearly state that Black Men are not hired by choice! This would not change if every illegal left today. Don't even get me started on the plight of the Black Man in the work force.

hjs - just making some rough estimates, informed by my reading and listening to news 10 hours a day including many on PBS & NPR.

Costs are different in different places. But, my figures are about as good as any coming out from the "regime" where truth is no bar to pronouncements. I would bet good money I'm within 10 -15% up or down.

Hope you're enjoying the nice weather.

sunphat
that caller also said he hires illegals

If illegal workers are not paid significantly less as your guest just said then why would construction general contractors go to the suburban corners to pick up illegal workers that congregate there each morning. It has the same net effect as union busting. On top of that the construction companies don't have to pay employer taxes, health benefits or worker compensation if these illegal workers get hurt. I am a liberal democrat. The illegal labor issue flies in the face of American fair labor opportunities and practices.

What a breath of fresh air to hear a conversation on illegal immigration with real experts who know what they're talking about! I want to add to the mix the fact that a couple of decades ago, when the Irish comprised the largest group by far of illegals in NY, there was no hue and cry!

The only person who had anything worthwhile to say was the landscaper who called in, the rest are out of touch ivory tower liberal academics. Most ILLEGAL immigrants get paid in cash and send most of their money back home and don't contribute via income tax. Most are using fake or stolen social security numbers and going to emergency rooms for medical treatment. On the flip side who wants to work as a landscaper, oh wait, I've done that, ok a slaughter house/meat packing plant. We need to close the borders and set up a guest worker program so all workers don't get exploited.

Calls'em
what is the souce of your "facts"

No one is against legal immigration, but every citizen should be against illegal immigration. US citizenship is not a human right. The real human rights issue is the economic slavery imposed by allowing illegals to be brought here and exploited.

The negative cost of illegals is horrific (100s of billions) & doesn't include the damage to our national character and spirit, nor the cost of supporting all those unemployed due to illegals taking jobs that people would take if they weren’t being undercut by economic slaves.

Let's see -here are some rough estimates:

(1) 15k a year to educate an illegal kid x 5,000,000 kids = $75,000,000,000.00;

(2) 40k a year to imprison a illegal convict x 1,000,000 criminals = $40,000,000,000.00

(3) 5k a year for emergency room care for illegals x 10,000,000 cases per year = 50,000,000,000.

Let's not forget the cost of police, courts, sanitation (illegals are an environmental disaster imposed on responsible Americans), social workers, insurance fraud, social security fraud, victims (rape, robbery, burglary, murder (a huge percentage of the US murder rate is now illegal related), housing costs, utilities, food kitchens, food stamps and on and on and on forever.

If illegals are allowed to stay and anchor then the costs and problems will quadruple and we will become a third world country and need a police state within a decade to combat the Mexico/Chicago, Ill. type crime, corruption and violence it will bring.

susan from nyc- did you see my comments below? if you want a dose of reality, read it. "the root" is a blog with zero knowledge of the reality of the construction business.

Becky--
Note that I said blacks are DISPROPORTIONATELY affected, not the only low-wage wolrkers affected. Please read this and respond.
http://www.theroot.com/views/how-illegal-immigration-hurts-black-america

Illegal workers make Republicans richer, Democrats poorer, and ALL Americans fatter. No kidding.

Yes HJS that is my point they can be recruited to do these jobs.

FYI SUSAN, there are plenty of unqualified young whites who could use a low wage job. You are not helping, this is not about Black people. This is about un or under educated persons.

Truth from Becky
i don't get it do we or don't we have enough drop outs in the country??

i'm in the construction business and hispanic. these guys don't paid as little as you think. there's a going rate for different trades and they are paid decently- it'd be a good job for any legal resident at the same rate.
and to susan from manhattan- no offense but these guys are not taking away jobs from black people. first of all- i've tried hiring more black guys but they don't want the work. and this is predominant across the entire construction industry. i don't care what color my workers are- it's there but young black kids aren't taking it. this is the truth.

We have enough high school drop outs, ex-cons and toothless rednecks in these United States to take up the slack if given a chance. They can be trained to go out and pick fruit, trim hedges, clean house and burp babies.

Re: Number of undocumented people in the US.

I am an immigration attorney, speak Spanish and closely monitor the immigration sitaution. Most immigration people in the know report far less people coming in to the US and many undocumented people leaving, thus the estimate of the number of undocumented people is less than before. See Pew Hispanic Trust. On a personal level, I know many hispanics that have left the US. A note of irony, under the Obama administration, more people have been deported than in previous years.

Stop the madness can't you all see how ridiculous this is? Why in the world do you all think we don't have enough high school drop outs in this country to perform the same low wage jobs as undocumented citizens?

please tell brian the long ice tea already exists. here's the recipe:

1 part vodka
1 part 1800® Tequila
1 part rum
1 part gin
1 part triple sec
1 1/2 parts sweet and sour mix
1 splash Coca-Cola®

These segments with people who pull numbers out of the air are on this topic tiresome and just outrage more and more Americans. Next you'll try to sell us the Brooklyn Bridge. Enough already.

What a breath of fresh air to hear a conversation on illegal immigration with real experts who know what they're talking about! I want to add to the mix the fact that a couple of decades ago, when the Irish comprised the largest group by far of illegals in NY, there was no hue and cry!

Another common misconception.

Documented workers like my girlfriend who dances for a reputable Dance Company is an Australian who has worked here for the last 10 years on work visa's. She has payed Social Security, Income Tax and is Taxed for Unemployment Benefits but can not claim Unemployment or get her Social Security money when she retires. This is especially difficult now because the Dance Company goes through periods of layoffs and she can not collect unemployment benefits that is rightfully hers because both she and her employer pay the tax.

Thank you for helping to clear up common misconceptions for both undocumented and documented workers.

anthony said if illegals went home young americans would leave their office jobs to go out and cut grass. LOL! but by the way he'll hire illegals below minimum wage in the mean time.
I guess we all know why tony couldn't find an office job...

What about the fact that cheap immigrant labor facilitates socially destructive economic activity, such as over-fishing off Mass, meat-packing industry, and corporate mega-farming

The policy is wrong but anyone should be able to understand Arizonan's frustration after watching this clip...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/04/30/kaye.rancher.death.cnn?hpt=C2

My Dad moved to a high end gated community in Az. with a golf course etc. Guess who built the place..
So the builders saved $ by paying cash to illegals, sounds like a typical capitalism ends justifing the means

of course there's "growth in the construction industry" when you can hire workers for half of what used to be the prevailing wage.

the landscaper from LI is right. do you think his workers file taxes? these women don't even know they exist so how can have statistics concerning their tax payments?
and he's right about young people not doing this work- they should be and they are not.

Can you address how amnesty will affect the cost of the new healthcare program?

arrrgh! Love the show but in light of other urgent news please stop using the term "drilling down" unless discussing the catastrophe in the sea.
thanks,
Josh

on the face of it, i find it hard to believe that the lowest-paid least-politically-connected members of society are extracting more from the economy as a whole than they are contributing.

on the other hand, like George Will (and Milton Friedman), i don't believe it's possible to have, for example, UHC *and* an open border.

i don't want the border closed. i do want it regulated. if Arizona's new law spurs the Federal government to (at last) get control of our borders, that's a good thing.

My reading of the data is that low income workers, especially blacks, suffer disproportionate wage suppression as a direct result of illegal immigrants. This is the elephant in the room that no one will talk about. The Root (the online journal) had an article about this not long ago.

what about the taxes that illegals generate
by allowing citizens to work. without my babysitter I would have had to quit my job because i couldn't afford to hire an american nanny. I pay a lot of income taxes thanks to my illegal nanny

brian:

please address remittances back to home countries and the percentage of the mexican economy they represent.

also, please address birth rates and the effect on services, such as hospitals (ER births) and schools.

I believe AZ's action is unconstitutional and repugnant, BUT....

I was injured in an accident caused by two illegal immigrants. The result has cost me my health and, ultimately my career. The benefit-cost analysis you're talking about does not include collateral data such as my loss of earnings. There are lots of "externalities" that the analysis you're doing is not including.

Further, the individuals involved were sending remittances to their home countries. The impact of those transfers generally aren't included in calculations by local officials.

The reason undocumented immigrants pay federal income taxes is because they hope it will eventually help their case in becoming legal, or at least help their case in being responsible residents. A federal tax paying record can serve as evidence of residence in case of a legalization program (which has happened before).

Brian,

How about we cut out the euphemisms out of this disccussion: "broken system" and "reform" are merely a substitute for amnesty.

As for economic impact, one should look at the minimum wage law as the real culprit for this situation.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to bring in some decent economists to discuss the problems in this country, as opposed to the usual Keynisians advocating government spend other people's savings.

these women have no idea what the underground economy is. these guys are all getting paid off the books so it's ridiculous to state that 90% of undocumented workers are filing taxes. unbelievably naive!

Had anyone openly stated the idea of denying automatic citizenship to the children of illegal aliens born in this country? I realize this is an age-old right but maybe it is time to stop it. I believe that this - through the children - is where the high cost of illegal immigration is coming from. I believe there are other countries where automatic citizenship is not granted to children born of aliens.

I'm totally against the AZ law, but understand the frustration that inspired it. The ex-governor is justifying a system that's exploitive on all sides. Undocumented workers have no rights and no representation. Legal workers have to compete in an unfair system. Consumers get a free ride superficially, but by not paying the real cost of goods and services, distorting the economy (and also wind up with unsafe food). The federal govt has to reform immigration to allow a realistic amount of workers from Mexico and elsewhere. We need them. They need us. Let's make it work!

The real issue is our economic policy with Mexico. Obviously, it's a net plus for our big corporations to have a giant pool of cheap labor just across the border. What's negative for actual people is that the minimum wage in Mexico is something like a 10th what it is in the US. Of course people are going to cross the border in droves if our low-wage jobs are so much better than theirs. Beyond immigration policy we should help Mexico develop a strong, independent economy of its own.

BRIAN!

PLEASE, in light of the disastrous circumstance in the Gulf of Mexico, can we use a substitute for the phrase, "drill down"?

Thanks!

Great show, as always!

If there wasn't a need for hiring immigration, they wouldn't be coming.

It's not just the immigration system that is broken. It's the system that makes it very difficult to hire an American for the same kind of work.

I generally hear pro-immigrant groups use phrases like "net" or "on balance" when discussing the economic benefits of illegal immigration. Please address specifically to whom the positive economic benefits accrue to (probably the upper and middle-classes) and who are the "losers", i.e. poor, under-skilled Americans who have to compete with immigrants and potentially, future citizens.

I've said before, this is only about cheap labor. someone is hiring the undocumented and they get paid less than minimum wage, at times. there would be a real revolt in this country if middle class citizens had to pay a fair wage to get their lawns mowed, buy a head of lettuce, have their kids watched after school or other services .
the undocumented support the middle class not the other way around. as for arizona, azizona is a welfare state. more of my federal dollars go to AZ then AZ sends to the feds. we should stop subsidizing red state bigots.