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I was disappointed to miss most of this segment today. I'm an RN and have been following closely (on the CDC website) the progression of this pandemic. As a health care professional, I am having difficulty understanding why people would object to mandatory vaccinations. Health care workers are required to receive numerous immunizations or show evidence of having had the disease (Measles , Rubella etc) Of course there are risks but the benefits far outweigh the possible negative consequences. If the state did nothing proactive, I can see these same folks yelling that they weren't adequately protected on the job!

just to be clear - I work in a clinic but I do insurance billing and have NO patient contact and am STILL being told I must be vaccinated. My mom got one of the "rare" but potentially deadly side effects (Guillan-Barre Syndrome), so I have seen first hand what a vaccine can do. She was 90% paralyzed and in a nursing home for a year and a half.

I will happily wear a mask around my office for the next 6 months, but I will not be vaccinated against my will and better judgement.

It is curious that the NY Times didn't cover the International Vaccine Conference in DC this weekend. How about a little non slanted coverage?

What the vast majority of people who take the stand "It's a violation of my rights to have to take a flu shot" tend to ignore or don't recognize is the effect on those of us vulnerable to death from the "mild" swine flu.

I get the flu shot every year. However, my white cell count is so low (due to bone marrow damage) that the shot may STILL not prevent me from contracting the flu.

All the people who don't get vaccinated and go out and spread the disease are like loaded guns pointed in my direction. I handwash, avoid crowds, and wear filter masks religiously. But if I get coughed on in a store, or worse yet, my health care worker gives me the virus, I am looking at the hosptilization at the best, and death at the worst.

My very best defense against not dying of the flu is lack of exposure to it. The more people who are vaccinated the less likely the chance of a pandemic where I will almost assuredly become ill. There are thousands of people in the same or similar situations.

Please think of others as well as yourself.

First, Mr. Lowe is incorrect. The influenza virus is not airborne like TB. It is spread by droplets that are propelled through the air when an infected person coughs or sneezes. Small clarification there.

We've mandated that our hospital employees get the vaccine. If they refuse, we mandate that they wear a face mask for their shift. In addition, we've done a lot of education and we have over 90% compliance.

It is the obligation for all health care providers to get appropriate immunization, including influenza vaccination, for the good of their patient. If they do not wish to, then they should reconsider providing health care. This hysteria over influenza vaccinations is not based in fact and logic, just misinformation and pointless rumor.

A few points the speakers made which are salient & warrant further investigation:
- The state refused to come on and comment
- Drawing the comparison of surgeons not hand wash & invasive vaccine with efficacy but not saftey studies (especially with H1N1)is ludicrous - Above all do no harm to yourself is apparently not important -
- If patients believe that practioners being vaccinated gives them protection from the flu, they are mislead - the speakers made it clear that unless the prevalent strain circulating is the very same as this years vaccine, it will do nothing to help.
-H1N1 dead injectable is not yet available, only the attenuated live which many hospitals aren't even using because of shed to patients and other workers.
- If public school students receive the attenuated, will they not perpetuate the virus?
- To minimize effects from the 1976 vaccination campaign, and to not even give credence to the three elderly patients "who were going to die anyway" who all received the swine flu shot from the same venue on the same day and all died that night is really only choosing to believe what makes you feel safe...
- Yes, there is efficacy from vaccines, no doubt, but where are all the long term controlled large sample group studies on safety?
-Where is big pharma in all of this? Can Brian get drug companies on?
-You don't have to go to Africa to find multiple examples of populations who feel vaccines are not entirely safe, try citing families of vaccine injured children right here all over our country who have little recourse due to the Patriot Act riders which absolve drug makers of any responsibility should vaccine injury occur.
-Here are some amazing guests to consider:
Barbara Loe Fisher, President, NVIC
David Ayoub, MD
Peter Doshi
Walter Kyle, JD
The list is endless, Check the speakers from the recent International Vaccine Conference on Vaccine Saftey which just took place in DC Oct 2-4.

Not to venture too far into hyperbole on this one, but for all the people who think eating organic, sleeping, and exercise (all of which I support wholeheartedly) are the answer to everything involving one’s health… Umm, which percentage of Europeans were offed during the plague when everyone ate organically and it was virtually impossible to live a sedentary lifestyle. They also slept with the sun and did not use alarm clocks.
What about the so called Spanish Flu in the 1900s when artificial trans fats had yet to be invented, everything didn’t have high fructose corn syrup in it, and people still had to physically move for a living?

Swine Flu Hysteria this would seem to be.

This is stupid and wrong headed, the mandate should be for people who are concerned about getting this flu.
Which just happens to be another of the many flu's that come and go yearly.
A sane mandatory policy for workers could be restricted to those who volunteer to administer vaccinations, ER, Surgery & ICU workers.

A search for "Lehrer comments" on the http://www.wnyc.org/search/?cx=009801551925401469317%3Ak2kdlex-qi4&cof=FORID%3A11&q=Lehrer+comments&sa=Search#996 page gets 10 or more *P*A*G*E*S* of results, each of which *mentions* 'comments', but NONE of which POINTS TO the current episode page containing the "Comments" link.

"If you don't know how to get here, you'll never make it." OR "You have to be *born* here."

Peace - Hesch

Based on a comment from a guest on Brian's show last week, you can request a mercury-fee dose of the vaccine.

Health care worker can be immune, and still carry the virus. Therefore, vaccine cannot be the ONLY weapon in the public arsenal.

Health care worker may be healthier than the general population, and therefore be asymptomatic or exhibit only mild symptoms. During some period before they 'naturally' recover completely, they may harbor live virus and pass it on, despite [nearly] all prophylactic measures. Possibly unaware of their status as a [temporary] "Swine Flu Mary".

Ironically, it is people like Lisa that make a mandate necessary. If there were not so many people doing the irresponsible thing, there would not be a need for a mandate.

The ER dr. who called in actually said the H1N1 flu isn't life-threatening? People have already died from it in the 1st wave of infections! And he said "normal, healthy people" will just need to spend a few days in bed, but not everyone is healthy (& they can show up in emergency rooms too), & there have been young, previously healthy people who've died from this strain of flu.

The flu vaccine does not seem comparable to vaccinations for diseases like polio and tetanus. Overcoming illness like flu does make your body more capable of dealing with it in the future, and a vaccine that requires yearly renewal seems more like a boon to drug companies than something that improves the health of our society.

My girlfriend is also being mandated to sign a form saying in essence that if this vaccination ends up causing health issues in the future, her employer, as well as a few other agencies CANNOT be held liable. Herein lies our mistrust of this mandate.

and if 10 million people die who would be the first to say why didn't government do more?

I am angry that the flu vaccine is being pushed so hard as the only defense against the flu, while there is a massive amount of good science backing the use of supplemental Vitamin D to prevent both cold and flu viruses. Vitamin D is readily available, incredibly cheap, and effective. Most people are Vitamin D-deficient, and merely bringing their levels up to normal is enough to prevent most colds and flu. While they carry on about vaccinating health care workers to protect patients, achieving optimal Vitamin D status for both health care workers and patients would be a safe way to prevent flu.

FINE. Don't force health care workers to get the vaccine. Fine. So that means the medical community is going to foot ALL the bills for anyone who contracts the flu in a doctor's office or hospital? YES?

Geez, no one is forcing you to get a flu vaccine, period, only saying it is a condition of your employment in the health care provider system. If you7, as a health care worker, object to this provision of employment, there may be another field you would fine fits your mindset better.

Amen, Elisa.

live viruses actually spread and communicate protection the same way that the diesease does. sousing live flu could conceivable damage immuno supressed individuals

The primary issue is being forced to ingest or inject something into one's person against one's will. This should be the heart of the discussion.

Pretty soon, Union workers might be mandated to get micro-chipped too "for their own good."

I have a compromised immune system, and I am incensed that these doctors and nurses are calling in to say that mandatory vaccination is stupid. I'd like to personally thank them for spreading viruses that cause me to stay home for a week or more. Three days in bed? Screw him. What kind of health care person is he to say that he has the right to come in sick to a place where SICK people go when they need help? That's like saying that it's his right to smoke at work because he's not going to get lung cancer, and as long as I go outside and breath some fresh air later, it's not his problem.

Your caller says it's "crazy" to mandate vaccinations, but we mandate them for school children. How is this different?

I would like to know that my health care providers are immunized from the flu when I seek care if system is compromised for other reasons.

some injectable vaccines are attenuated--MMR, Varicella. Your guest just misspoke--get an expert!

NYC pediatrician

If I could only translate through this venue the music to STAR WARS - THE IMPERIAL MARCH!!!

You must take...must take what we tell
You must take...you must not yell!

Yes, this and much more can be a slippery slope.

Perhaps this is really a connection to the needed healthcare reform.

If people had good sick day coverage, NYS wouldn't care if someone ad to take a day off. Since they don't want to pay for sick days, everyone should be forced to get a vaccine to save them money.

Wow. A lot of callers are just not really informed. H1N1 has proved to be more virulent among healthy young adults. Recently, a college student in Ithaca, NY, died. A healthy college student.

correction of typos:

Very disappointed you don't have any public health or vaccine experts on the show. We need strong encouragement if not enforcement because of health care workers like Liza. She is very misinformed and a risk to her patients. On average people contract the flu every 3-4 years. There is NO lifelong flu immunity, even with yearly vaccination or yearly flu infection. She is undoubtedly exposing others to the flu repeatedly. It's also worth mentioning that no significant adverse effects effects have ever been proven to relate to swine flu or other vaccines. Never infertility!! Ugh. Even Guillain-Barre syndrome was never proven and would less cases than deaths per year from the flu. Ironically the traditional flu vaccine is actually more important since to date it is typically more severe than the swine flu. Also please note, that the safety is much better insured than medications, with MUCH better aftermarket surveillance and transparency of data despite the napping FDA. Please get a vaccine expert.

Chris C.

NYC Pediatrician

Allison,
I don’t know how old you are, but when you were a child, were you required to get a DPT or MMR to attend school? The Salk vaccine?
Have any idea what members of the armed services are REQUIRED to do for the job they’ve chosen?
This nurse chose a job, if she doesn’t like what comes with the job then she needs to either quit or be fired without continuation of her pension or healthcare.

What a ridiculous statement above. If there was one vaccine left available with my name on it ... I would never take it. I have never taken a vaccine and never will. I don't remember the last time I had the flu. Did anyone ever think of promoting healthy diets: no sugar, fresh organic foods, sleep, etc. etc. to prevent illness? If a health care provider feels any symptoms, they should stay home. They can always get something else and pass it along besides the flu. Will we be mandating drugs for any possible illness? As just stated, people can still get the flu even if they have the flu. As always, the majority of alopathic medicine providers address illness instead of health. We need to encourage building up our immune systems and believing in our natural abilities to heal.

These people who refuse to get the vaccine claim that if they get sick they'll just stay home, but aren't you usually contagious for a while before you start showing symptoms?

This H1N1 flu is much more serious for young people and those with compromised immune systems. If a healthy person can fight off the flu, these segments of the population cannot. Vacccines are some not kind of untested prevention. The flu has already resulted in 4000 deaths. Something like 30,000 die each year from the regular flu. We seem pretty casual about keeping people safe.

With respect to one caller, people are NOT allowed to be stupid with other people's lives.

What are they going to be forced to do next? It's a slippery slope.

Vaccines are not magic bullets. There's no guarantee that vaccinating all health care workers will prevent the spread of illness.

All people need to take responsibility for their own health through healthful practices: diet, exercise, good hygiene and adequate rest & relaxation.

If it's one of these health care issues where there is a lot of public doubt, take some money from the wealthy (yeah, fair taxation!) and get them to pay for it for all of us. Make their kids take the vaccine, after they return from Iraq or Afghanistan as grunts. As long as we all go together, perhaps, all is OK. I just hate trying to put stuff over on people for just sales, i.e. BIG DRUG COMPANIES.

Here's an idea,

How about the state mandate that health care workers cannot wear their surgical scrubs and office hygenist scrubs on the subway. What's the point of wearing scrubs for reasons of hygene when you wear them like street clothes?

regarding h1n1 and flu vaccines, do either contain mercury or thimerisol? If so, does this pose any danger to children. I know it's a concern for some parents who subscribe to the theory that it can cause autism.

Though I do see how why nurses would feel bullied into taking the vaccine, I have a boyfriend who has a compromised immune system due to a genetic disease. Getting the the flu, especially the swine flu, could be a life threatening sickness. Since most people do not have the ability to take the vaccine making likely-hood of a nurse contracting this sickness is high.

Why isn't anyone pointing out to the legislators that just because you are vaccinated against a virus doesn't mean you aren't carrying the virus in you or on your person.

can we block an epidemic by vaccinating every fourth volunteer?

Very disappointed you don't have any public health or vaccine experts on the show. We need strong encourage if not enforcement because of health care workers like Liza. She is very misinformed and a risk to her patients. On average people contract the flu every 3-4 years. There is NO lifelong flu immunity, even with yearly vaccination or yearly flu infection. She is undoubtedly exposing others to the flu repeatedly. It's also worth mentioning that no significant adverse effects effects have ever been proven to relate to swine flu or other vaccines. Never infertility!! Ugh. Even Guillain-Barre syndrome was never proven. Also please note, that the safety is much better insured than medications, with MUCH better aftermarket surveillance and transparency of data. Please get a vaccine expert.

Chris C.
NYC Pediatrician

Could we confirm at which hospital Liza works so we will know which corporation to sue when an outbreak happens?
I find it yet another failing of the New York State educational system (or abysmal hiring practices in the state) that the state would need to educate any so called healthcare “professional” on how immunizations work and how they are made and the importance of protecting vulnerable patients. Makes me afraid to even be in the same room as a nurse educated in this state.

I had the swine flu in the spring. Do I need to be thinking about getting a swine flu vaccine to protect against mutations of the spring flu?

No one has mentioned the number of people who will become ill or die from Guillain-Barre as the result of this mandatory inoculation.

Having taken care of a GBS victim who's now a quadriplegic, I'll wash my hands and take my chances.

Moreover, I can't believe that big pharma is not behind this mandate.

how is it the same that washing your hands - is the same as placing a live virus in your own body... this is not a clear example or an accurate assessment of something preventive that is external as something that maybe when ingested..

my doctor told me, he won't give me the vaccine because I'm "low risk" am I going to die?
should I go to canadia to get the vaccine?

Hey Brian,

I work in clinical research at a New York hospital but in a typical office building environment. Can Thomas tell me whether these flu shots are required of me as a health care employee, even though I NEVER come in contact with patients in the hospital?

Since we're discussing vaccines, wouldn't this be a perfect time for Brian to correct his FALSE statement from last week's vaccine show that a supposed link between Thimerosol and autism hasn't been disproven?

Or perhaps a follow up Friday segment?

If you look at the comments for last week's show, several WNYC BLS listeners called Brian out on this misstep.

Ben

And by the way, if the powers that be are going to mandate it then they should mandate by law that ALL health insurers to pay for the shot. Many (most?) don't pay for it because it's "preventive" medicine. Did it ever occur to insurers that if they paid the lower fees for many preventive measures they might not have to pay out the more expensive treatments for serious diseases and conditions!!! Duh!

What are the other steps to prevent the flu..
(washing hands, exercise)?

My daughter is immune compromised and while an adult health care worker may be able to fit off the flu, she cannot. Health care workers often cannot "see" that someone is immune compromised so they could unwillingly pass it to many sick individuals who are seeking help.

Brian this segment is irresponsible. It is feeding the misinformation. If the state did not mandate the flu shot, and people died, then they would be called negligent.

Well, if the large pharmecutical companies make and distribute the vaccines at NO PROFIT to themselves (properly monitored) AND sponsor the government option in health care, then, I might go along with the salesman.
OH,and along the way, if the FDA is brought back to us as a real standard bearer for truth in medicine post RUMSFELD, then, and, only then, will I believe the drug salesman guest.

I can't believe that the health officials are comparing washing your hands to being INJECTED with medicine. That's so invasive. You can't force yourself onto somebody's body for work. That's so wrong. Washing your hands is something everybody does and is external and doesn't have ANY side effects.

Also the vaccine doesn't always work so...

Brian Lehrer nailed it last week when he said that people opposed to the vaccine will start clamoring for it the minute we get reports that vaccine supplies are running out.

The nurse who called in last week does not inspire confidence in nursing professionals.

A bout of flu may leave one with immunity to that species of flu; it does not do so with all varieties.

New York City has unique issues -- it is a singularly dense city. It has a very heavily used public transit system. It has the largest school system in the country.

I absolutely do not want to have a nurse attending to me or my children if he or she thinks she doesn't need to protect herself against disease transmission. Simple.

It is ludicrous to say that refusal to take a vaccine is a matter of freedom of speech or religion. Granted, there are faiths that forbid modern medicine, and everyone has the right to follow those faiths. But when you accept the responsibility of safeguarding the health of others, you make sacrifices to do so. If one's faith requires them to put others at risk, they--not others--must make the sacrifice.

That nurse claimed that the vaccine was a live virus, but Channel 4 news last night did a 'mythbusting' segment in which a doctor said the viruses were not live. Which is correct?

Leading with the fear mongering nurse…
Well, I guess that’s no different than the soldier who refuses to shoot a gun, the waiter who doesn’t believe in the practice of hand washing, the doctor who thinks sharing needles between patients is a great way to save money, and the parent who doesn’t believe in car seats or seatbelts.

No one should be forced to get the vaccine. I too rarely get flu vaccines, got the flu once and was over it in 2 days. My 88 yr old mom never got a flu shot in her life, got one last year and became very ill with flu!!! OK. If one starts to feel ill and it seems flu-like they should stay home and ride out the episode be it really flu or just a cold. Mandating is crap and should not be done.