wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

nothing wrong with using wikipedia as a source in a laymen's discussion

Just a case:

I get a flu shot every year. Otherwise, I ALWAYS get the flu--and it knocks me off my game for at least 6 weeks (3 weeks of flu, and seemingly all spring recovering).

My friend works with the elderly. She never gets the flu. So she never got a flu shot. She was pressured by her work, and so one year she got a shot. She had a mild reaction. Next year, she was pressured again, and for some reason got another shot.

She collapsed in the parking lot.

I firmly believe in flu shots FOR ME.

BUT she is one of a small percentage of vulnerable people who should NEVER get another flu shot.

99.9% of people posting here have had vaccinations at some point in their life. Yet not one complaint of legs falling off or chronic headaches here or life long health issues or the boogie man coming to get them in the middle of the night due to getting vaccinated. To all the health nuts, conspiracy theorists and people who think their first amendment rights are being violated I ask you this, are you still alive and breathing? Simple common sense and pure logic dictated you are your own test tube that proves vaccinations are no more harmless then walking down the street. This idea that vaccinations are dangerous is the same thinking that seat belts in cars and helmets for motorcycles are bad even though real world statistics and observations prove the exact opposite.

At the end of the show, with regard to thimerosal you made the comment, citing some people's beliefs re: autism that: because no cause is found, you can't rule anything out ("can't rule in, so can't rule out"). But that's NOT TRUE. Numerous epidemiological studies rule thimerosol OUT for autism: remove the thimerosol in various countries and the apparent rate or autism continues its trend upward. If thimerosol were the cause, the rate should go down. Epidemiology has excellent tools for ruling in and ruling out and these have been critical to various medical discussions.

N. Buoy, you're criticizing the use of Wikipedia while citing a YouTube video? Posted by someone who thinks Obama is a "fascist" who is going to bring about "world enslavement"?

Ha ha, indeed.

Ok, youtube is much more credible that wikipedia. I'm convinced.

OK, OK you guys working in the industry don't like Gary Null, what ever, chill.

Try this then, and remember the subject is Swine Flu vaccination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8tK0n18Als

N. Buoy from NY, NY - You're mocking someone for citing wikipedia while you citing someone who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS? Really? Pot, I'd like you to meet kettle...

"Richard Gale and Gary Null have written a very interesting white paper on Flu Vaccines."

This is the second comment to recommend this crackpot in the thread. Gary Null also claims that HIV does not cause AIDS. His website is mostly about selling stuff, including incredibly overpriced vitamins and herbs that have no known clinical benefit.

RE: "Why not just use Vitamin D3 instead of risking injection/inhalation with unproven technologies"

Because vitamin D is not medicine? Because its use against the flu actually is unproven?

Vaccination is an extremely well-tested medical practice that saves 3 million lives per year according to the WHO.

http://www.euro.who.int/features/2007/featureiw07/20070410_6

Your guest was right in her assessment of the public and the public's ignorance. America is facing a real threat of pandemic that could cause the death of thousands, and they are bitching about first amendment rights and conspiracies. America has truly become the land of the ignorant and ill informed. It's clear to me that the internet and the 24 hour news cycles has created a whole class of dummies who cannot think and reason, but latch on to some idea they hear or see, pretend they understand the entire picture and act on it however ignorantly it is. Unfortunately, the only way for these people to learn the error of their ways is by the spread of the swine flu and the subsequent deaths of hundreds of their fellow citizens.

How indeed, Ben from Brooklyn - this sort of thing is extremely tiresome, a dangerous public disservice and especially surprising and disappointing in this case. In fact the link has been disproven (as far as it is possible to disprove anything).

This http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2009/09/week-of-humble-pie.html is an example of the kind of diligence and intellectual honesty I think all journalists and broadcasters should aspire to.

PL Hayes from Aberystwyth, your using Wikipedia as your reference?

Ha Ha Ha, you must have a Master Degree.

LOL

This topic really brings out the crazies, doesn't it?

Upthread we have someone recommending the website of someone who denies that HIV causes AIDS. I hope that callers and commenters overrepresent the true depths of these conspiracy theories. Man-made virus? Really?

It's depressing.

Also, which part of the first amendment says that you have the right to work in a hospital without taking precautions that you don't spread infectious disease to your patients? I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding was that it is about freedom of speech, the press, religion and assembly.

as a nurse i have received and will continue to receive flu immunization as recommended by the hospital where i practice. health care workers by design have the same obligation as the hospitals; protect patients. is there a statistical risk that a caregiver will be harmed by the treatment? certainly - the numerical value probably being somewhere in the probability that i will suffer a serious mva on my way to work; a risk we take every day single day.

Richard Gale and Gary Null have written a very interesting white paper on Flu Vaccines. If you want to read it www.garynull.com

Skeptical is good, afraid is better.

Is H1N1 really a "pandemic" worthy of such hysteria?

In the giant population of China, there are 7000 reported cases with only a few hundred deaths (according to Radio China International)...

In all of India, there are 6000 reported cases with only 176 deaths.

With this tiny percentage of the population affected, why all the commotion to force DRUGS on the populations? when spending the same money and resources on hunger, sanitation, safe water, etc. faces great scrutiny and small funding...

This story needs more attention due to the incredible lack of medical/scientific knowledge in the general public (not to mention the "health worker" who called in before).

I'm wondering when YouTube will have a video about how witches are behind H1N1.

Brian, how could you end the segment saying there is no proven link between Thimerosol and Autism, but the link hasn't been disproven either?!?!?

Thimerosol was dropped from virtually all pediatric vaccines in 2002. Autism is diagnosed by age 3-5 in almost ANY case.

If there were any link between Thimerosol and Autism, the Autism epidemic would have abated by 2007. It didn't. Because there is absolutely NO LINK.

I thought Brian Lehrer had a degree in epidemiology or sociology or statistics or something. How could he make such a gaffe?

It doesn't really matter if that caller is a real paediatrician. Crackpots, cranks and quacks are often qualified. Sometimes they even win nobel prizes before going off the rails. Here's the guy he referenced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Horowitz#Drug_Cartel_Swine_Flu_Conspiracy_theories

*sigh*

Why not just use Vitamin D3 instead of risking injection/inhalation with unproven technologies (nano particles??).

http://www.ehow.com/how_5343048_use-vitamin-flu-medicine.html

What is Squalene anyway?

People need to take responsibility for their health. All you need is good nutritious food, exercise, sleep and wellness practices. You have to practice good health. There are no quick fixes.

Please pardon my ignorance, but are there any proven incidences in which vaccines have caused epidemics? By proven I mean peer-reviewed, academy-grade, journal-published studies or something of commensurate rigor?

Why should we have to *ask* for mercury free vaccines

As a parent I don't know any parent who is not afraid of vaccinating their child for H1N1 nor do I know any parent who isn't afraid not to vaccinate. And mass "education" campaigns from public health officials have thus far not helped assuage our concers because the tone of these promotions are generally disrespectful. "Minority opinion" and "vocal minority" are terms used to marginalized parents with real concerns. We want our kids to be safe and frankly there's a lot of doubt that vaccine manufacturers & overseeing agencies are looking out for our children's best interests. Perhaps if the dialog was more respectful of our "anecdotal" evidence when it comes to genuine situations with out kids.

i've never had a flu shot. wasn't the shot last year for the wrong flu?

my boyfriend always gets a flu shot. and he works with kids. but we get the flu pretty much the same amount.

i don't know, it just seems sketchy.

They're using the H1N1 vaccine in Canada. All vaccines are made in a specific way -- they're not some kind of witch doctoring. Would you please clarify if there even is such a thing as a man-made virus? I though vaccines were made with either active (live) virus or inactive (dead) virus.

This week's issue of Time magazine has a really helpful two page spread about the H1N1 vaccine. I highly recommend it. I felt like it answered a lot of questions I had and a few I hadn't thought of.

The regular flu shot still contains thimerosol as the preservative, does the swine flu contain the same preservative?

Why would a person choose to work in HEALTH CARE and refuse to consider the societal ramifications of refusing vaccination? Where is this selfishness coming from? It's insane to me that so much scientific ignorance thrives in health care professionals. Are nurses not required to undergo continuing education? Were they not trained in the scientific method? It appears that providing care to others has become a "job" rather than a calling. So sad.

A Bronx cheer to this person you have on today.

Who is this caller who is talking about 1st amendment rights? Is she a health care worker? How about the patient right to not be infected by their health care provider. If she is so concerned about her rights, then perhaps she is in the wrong profession. There is so much conspiracy theories out there that put out inaccurate misleading information. Vaccinations have improved the health of the population, does anybody remember Small Pox, Polio etc. probably not, thanks to vaccinations.

I was unlucky enough to get swine flu in August, and it's not an experience I'd like to go through again. Will my body have some immunity against swine flu this season or am I a candidate for the vaccine? (I'm in a graduate student in my 20s, and there's a ton of buzz on campus.)

Brian you are spreading the rumor by just entertaining these nonsense calls

I think what that nurse who was complaining about being forced to get the vaccination is missing is that it's not about whether or not she is immune, it's about the possibility of becoming a carrier and infecting other patients.

Typhoid Mary never got sick.

I heard that only infants (don't know up to what age) need the flu shot twice because it takes longer to build their immunity. Others only need one dose. Brian in the name of fairness you're spreading misinformation and nonsense!

Health Care Workers: It's your job to do all you can to NOT be a part of the problem. It's your job. Unless you have a medical reason for not being vaccinated, just do it. If you don't want to accept this part of your job, fond one where you CAN comply with the requirements.

Can you speak to the issue of the toxicity of the MEDIUM in which the flu vaccine is delivered? It can contain:

Thimerasol
Aluminium
Carbolic Acid
Degergent
Allergens like egg products

Also, speak about the difference in terms of immune system response between vaccines delivered into the blood stream versus vaccines delivered in the manner that we tend to naturally get exposed to pathogens (via inhalation or oral ingestion). Thanks you!

This shows the results of poor science education as well as wide spread circulation of misinformation and conspiracy theories. As individuals people think they're the exception to the rule. The other guy will get sick, but note me. Washing hands, eating well (whatever that means) and getting sleep are preventative measures but not absolute.

Where does the health worker's First Amenedment rights begin and my right to avoid health risks end?

Before you get too enthused about the swine flu vaccinne you should read the technical, researched paper now posted on www.garynull.com

Every point he makes in the paper is authenticated by references and research, not by personal opinions of public officials.

So parents who jump on any new fad diet, buy new technology the second it comes out, believes any loon who throws out theories about what’s in the healthcare bills or this man-made virus hooey that the first caller brought up, and believes every new theory on child rearing thinks hand washing, diet, and sleep are more important and reliable than the new vaccine… Well I hope their obese filthy germ ridden children who can’t stay awake throughout the school day because they’re up all night watching TV and playing video games are segregated from the children of responsible parents.

Swine flu may be over-hyped BUT the idea that one should not use a vaccine that might prevent a fatal illness is the type of non-scientific, irrational beliefs that would have us thinking the earth is flat!

When we brought our 15 month old for his last check-up, we asked our Ped. Her response was "we don't know anything about this vaccination yet, we have no idea where the press are getting their information." Friends reported similar experiences - Peds have no information, and aren't recommending it. A physician friend of ours had no plans at this time to get her 9 year old son vaccinated.
If the doctors have no faith in what seems like press paranoia - why should we?

I have two kids and get the flu shot every year.

I'll likely get this one as well, because the anti-vaccine crazies usually exaggerate any of the claims against any such treatment.

I am attorney and was able to receive a free flu shot a few years ago at the law firm where I worked. When I told my fellow attorneys in my group, I was surprised that all of the 10 or so attorneys thought it was a conspiracy and refused to receive a shot. I understand the medical community suggests receiving one. Sounds like a big disconnect.