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Thank u r information

Interesting to hear someone refer to going into the arts. There is a parallel in the arts, specifically in the visual arts, a degrading of manual skills that accompanied the upgrade of theory to the heights. To short-form it, one's ability to draw was less important than one's ability to spin a theoretical yarn that explained Andy Warhol and his subculture.

re: "isn't there a gender bias towards men in this theory?"

And there would be a bias towards women in the other.

Can't really describe it as a "gender bias" because I think there are issues larger than that particular one at play, quelle shock there, eh, but I do have to ask: what's your point?

I actually ended up getting a degree that used art, psyed and vocational classes that I took in high school. I got my BS in industrial design in the early 90’s recession. Nobody was hiring for ID but I got a job in a machine shop (hence the need for physical education). My point was, there was a strong lobby group that only wanted to save arts and music. They saw no use for physical ed or vocational classes. I’m well employed in ID and I use my vocational and art training almost everyday. It’s all very important. But the damage had long been done well before standardized testing came on the scene.

anonyme - regardez:

http://eater.com/archives/2009/05/florent_to_rise_again_in_new_location_by_2011.php

oh happy day!

I left college after two years, went to computer trade school for 1.5 years, and have been working solidly in the computer field since 1985. I have even risen from being a Jr. field technician (18k) to Director of System Engineering (almost buck fifty) and I maintained and was successfull in that position for four years.

I left that job, and rebuilt myself almost to the same salary level over the course of five years. I recommend that todays' youth definitely consider vocational training. But the trick to being successful with vocational training is to keep up to date with your skill set, and to have an above the horizon lookout for new skill sets before they become fashionable.

Also, you have to be a bit thick skinned and leary of the college types, who will snear at you everytime because you can not possibly be more successful that them, without having gotten a college degree... Their constant retort to you will be that you where just lucky!

BronxTechno

This country does put way too much importance on college. I've been working in Corporate America for the last 8 yrs and its NOT a good fit. I'm in the process of finding my courage and make a 180 toward my passion.

I have an Ivy League degree in "creative writing" and even master's "creative writing." Never has there been a more useless degree, but a terrific reason to push for vocational school.

JP--there shouldn't have ever been a choice to cut art and phys ed versus vocational training. all are necessary in creating a true, well-rounded education. do you honestly think those destined to develop arts skills to make a living are the same people who might want to weld (perhaps in some cases, yes)? it is the emphasis on teaching to standardized tests that has ruined school programming as we knew and enjoyed it. this is the single biggest culprit in creating competitive students who all want to go into i-banking.

I have a Masters degree in philosophy. In school I was realistic, and knew I would not be a professional philosopher.

I've always loved computers, and my 15 year career in them has been very successful.

I found my philosophy degrees have helped me understand concepts and be creative with very complex ideas.

Without a doubt, a college degree isn't necessary to make great money. Of our friends, it seems that those without higher ed have gone on to do the best financially. That being said, nothing can take the place of educating your mind. When populations of people are displaced from their homeland, they are able to rebuild by using their education to rebuild. A skill is only marketable so long as you are physically fit, being able to use your mind allow you to be marketable for much longer.

Hey Brian,
I think it's only fair to also acknowledge that not everyone has the ability to develop the skills needed to be a successful craftsperson. It really takes a certain kind of personality, perseverance, and agility to master certain crafts. Some people are much better suited in a suit.

oops college was to learn to think

I am currently a successful music business executive (a dying breed) but I took time off and learned how to refinish furniture and upholster a few years ago. I know that I was born to be a craftsman. I have installed flooring throughout a floor in our house (while my husband watched in awe). I taught myself to sew and generally LOVE working with my hands. I believe in my heart that these things will be part of my future career goals!

Am in the middle of reading Mr. Sennet's book, The Craftsman. I do not know how much he may address this topic as the book continues but it seems to me that the class distinctions we have about blue vs. white collar work are the result of our immigrant culture. Seems as though first generations often came as labor or craftspeople and always pushed their children to "do better". I have found in Europe that the craftspeople I know are much more well respected in their communities than we are here. I am a custom shoemaker. A custom shoemaker in Europe is an honorable work. Here people do not even understand it and often think I do repair work. Americans do not understand making things at all.

As a college professor I see many students who are not sure why they are in college; they just know they should be there. When it comes to graduation time, they are equally puzzled what to do next.

At least a trade gives a person very defined, specialized skills that are needed and immediately applicable in the real world.

Diane,

What are you smoking? Union jobs hands down get the best medical insurance and most of these jobs don’t require a degree. Some of the best health insurance plans I’ve seen belong to jobs you can get without a university degree.

I am a freelance print graphic designer, but I am currently taking this downtime to learn some html, actionscript and other web based technologies. I figure when most forms of printed materials go the way of the dodo I'll be ok...

I left Rutgers U. just 5 credits short of a liberal arts degree to pursue a music career which was good to me for 5 years. But then due to unusual circumstances I took a job which led me into business and took over the company I worked for. 20 years later I sold that company and started a new one importing organic food. Bottom line, I never did get a request for the degree I didn't finish. All my employment has been via on-th-job self-taught skills.

I am an architect and I believe the vocational training program should be integrated into the community college system. This would allow tradespeople to obtain basic college education alongside a trade. Kinda like what other prof. do, 1st two years basic education, last two years major focused.

Paul

Why is this a surprise to anybody? When secretaries started getting Masters degrees(?!), I knew it was oversold. To this day, I still hear politicians talk about "college" for everyone. Huh?

Many of us don't think of University as an investment which will yield financial returns. We went to University to learn because we are curious and want to be informed citizens of the world.

My father (MD) always said college was to learn to thing - trades come after - he also went to law school and he considered law and med school trade schools! I went to art school. I am looking forward to having people around who aren't "in their heads" all day - working in reality not the abstract.

I'm the oldest child in my family and before I chose a college my father sat myself and my younger brother and sister down to tell us that he'd rather send us to a trade school if we weren't 100% sure we wanted to go to college. He seemed to have the foresight to know that getting a BA in anything just for the sake of going to college was foolish. Unfortunately I did not heed his warning and I am currently working in an office not doing what I went to college for.

My daughters are only 8, but I am encouraging them to head toward a non-college type career. My partner and I are both teachers (she has a Ph.D., I have a Masters+), but looking ahead at the career outlooks and college tuition, non-college looks great. I have suggested everything from carpentry to pet grooming to clowning, though a friend of mine did point out that there is clown college...

after 4 years of college for architecture and no degree, i started my own business doing web design & internet marketing. I love working for myself and having the flexibility to work from home, learn whatever new skills i need, and doing what i love. My business - Http://www.sequoialegalmarketing.com

I went to college for philosophy, grad school for English, and lost my job as a NYC public school teacher in February. I learned how to keep bees this spring, and while learning a new skill, rediscovered my first passion: writing. I'm now writing a blog about urban beekeeping (fuzzybuzzness.blogspot.com) and my new goal is to get published before 30, a lifelong dream. (I'm 28.) My life has become much slower and more fulfilling. At the moment, I'm pretending my huge loans don't exist.

I am a university professor with two small children. I tell my peers that I plan to send either or both of them to a trade school of their choice. My peers laugh but I am serious.

I am good friends with a painter at my university; a friend offered him extra work painting her porch and he declined, noting that he made more than enough money during his hours at work and loved having his weekends off. None of my colleagues have weekends or summers off because we're all trying to publish and not lose our jobs. My friends who can afford to own homes in this city (I can't) are always at the mercy of their contractors, auto mechanics, and other tradespeople. It seems to me that craftspeople have pride in their work, leisure time, and solid incomes. Who needs status?!

Wound up going into broadcast communications after college (where I majored in Psychology/Art History). I do not regret any of my life choices and feel purpose of college should not be that of a "trade shcool" but a place where one can be exposed to knowledge and different ideas that prepare one to be a thoughtful, contributing member of society. Not saying this can't be done without the degree but anyone who enters into the world of higher learning knowing exactly where they're headed is missing out on the most important role of the experience.

I knew that was Florent! I wonder what he is doing now since his restaurant closed! That was a great place!

Leonard (the foodie) should have him on! He's a local treasure!

By the way I have been waiting for this discussion on WNYC for a long time. Almost everyone I know has either profited or lost from this phenomenon. I feel the apprehension to take up a trade or just take time off to work before college is a major obstacle in the prosperity of Americans.

I agree this country place too much status on the suit and tie, but in terms of personal satisfaction and quality of life I would not underestimate the value of college education. I really value the experience of being forced to think in depth than I was in high school. I'm a poor unpublished author, who works at a coffee shop, but I do not regret the knowledge I gained in college.

My media company was bought out by another, and all employees will be laid off in November (myself included). I have decided that I will leave the writing/editorial field and go to nursing school. It's a good solid job with practical skills and I'll be helping people. I am just disgusted with office jobs and corporate America--being chained to a desk making profit for the those at the top. (Though after watching SICKO last night, I'm sure I will soon be hating HMOs even more than I already do).

I'm in Microbiology grad student but if it doesn't work out- I'd like to be a pastry chef

I was trained for a job in Marketing and worked for almost 10 years as an advertising copywriter. I hated advertising the more I worked in the field. It took a recession in 1980 to move me out of that field and after years of floundering I started a small dogwalking and petsitting service . I can't claim I'll ever be on the cover of Fortune Magazine but I do have very loyal clients, they appreciate the service I provide and I'm learning how important animals are in the world.

Here is a reason for sticking with a "traditional" career for which you need a BA: you will probably get a job where you get health insurance.

brian--you don't know who you're talking to! the much-loved florent! ouais, on t'aime florent!!

There's also the too-wide discrepancy of compensation betweeen blue-collar and white collar work!

I have two B.A.'s (in English and History) and look where am I now: unemployed and working part-time for an independent bookstore. Go figure.

I had a 30 year career in the media arts in higher education- teaching and administrating at the college level.
My career ended and I've returned to something I did when I needed money when I dodged the draft - pruning fruit trees. I pruned some trees last winter and remembered how much I love to sit in a tree and work on the puzzle. This spring I took a refresher course at the the Brooklyn Botanical Garden with Trees , NY.
I recently pruned a small orchard for free to demonstrate skill and made a business card. I now have two orchards lined up and several other possibilities.

I grew up in the late 70’s and into the 80’s. Vocational schools were shut down left and right and gym class was on its way out. The educational elite fought real hard to try and keep art and music in school. They had no problem watching vocational schools and gym classes go down in flames. Kind of funny how the market is struggling to find good workers with a vocational background and a large sector of our population is officially obese.

I went to art school and am doing fine. Making graphics for TV. But something I see alot today is friends that are sick of their jobs and say "I want to do what you do." Right cause the 10 years of late night and weekends I have put in mean nothing. The arrogance of wall st.

Oh and starting at the bottom of totem pole is fine. As long as salary is at least 90K.

I am a trained pastry chef but I've always loved sewing.
Recently I turned my skill into a small business.
We developed a gadget which keeps food warm like Thermos keeps liquids warm.
Our gadget is called Warmables. It helps parents feeding their kids better school lunches.
It also helps saving money as many of us pay for school lunches.
I do think people always reach back to almost forgotten talents once times get hard.
See our solution to better school lunches at:
http://www.warmables.com

Talented Seamstress

I graduated in May 2009 from one of the SUNY universities with a Bachelors in Philosophy. I am in the process of applying for graduate school for philosophy and also for law school. Now I'm starting to think I should have learned carpentry or plumbing or something.

Affordable Housing, after doing the Satanic work of brokering and repping big landlords I got into affordable housing. You can maka a darn good living being a federal tax credit (LIHTC) leasing and compliance specialist. I have never met anyone that works in this area. The compensation is great once you know the game. I never met a college Grad in this business. Yes, I dropped out of college long ago, I always knew creating wealth or being happy had nothing to do with education.

Millionaire ex bankers who want to start a new career in the arts?

Really?

I was an electronics technician in the late 70's, a skill that the US Navy taught me. This skill helped me when I became a programmer and later an IT specialist. My college major was film. I still love film, but my electronics skill feeds my family.

TREE CLIMBERS!

The City's Parks Department is always looking for qualified tree climbers with 6 months to a year of experience. 15 paid vacation days and good health benefits. Pays mid-50s to start -- the same salary I was making at a certain west soho ad agency to work 50+ hours a week including late nights and weekends...

I'm an art school dropout who went on to apprentice as a metal fabricator (welding, milling, finishing, etc.). Since leaving school I have never had to search for a job. Even coming back to NY after a 5 year absence, I had three great jobs to choose from. I actually had to turn employers down! I wish more people would do practical work before deciding to go into massive debt for a field they may not even want to be in in the long run.

By the way, Dr. Sennet's book, Corrosion of Character, led me to become a Sociologist, even against his advice.

I wish I had done just about anything besides going to law school. I owe so much money and there are just no jobs anymore - even the mind numbing and soul crushing document review jobs are drying up.

I opted not to finish college and went to culinary school instead. It was the best decision I ever made. I'm a chef and entrepreneur with my own personal chef service in NYC. -unfussyfood.com-
When the economic troubles this winter reduced my client base, I started to teach more private and public cooking classes. No matter how bad the economy - everyone has to eat!

I am a mechanical engineer with fifteen years of work experience. I have been unemployed for nine months. I know engineers who are driving a truck for a living. I know people who have forbidden their children from majoring in engineering because they know there are no paying jobs on the other side.

I would love to go back to the tool & die shop. There just aren't any shops left. It has all been outsourced to China and India.

I'm currently taking a hand tools woodworking class. It's something I've wanted to do for a long time, and I finally found a relatively affordable class being offered at an artists' studio space close to where I live. Even if I never do woodworking professionally, having these skills makes me feel empowered to, say, make minor renovations or build something out of throwaway parts. I don't have to settle for retail furniture.

And I think Priya might be referring to the fact that men dominate "the trades." I know there are programs that try to get women into carpentry, electrical work, plumbing, etc. As a woman, though, I'd find it too intimidating to work alongside men in those professions.

I did go to graduate school, but I learned there mathematics. I am doing a lot of programming, which I self-taught myself in junior-high.

College did not teach me any practical, hands-on skills, but the math and physics I learned there, I couldn't have learned on my own.

I remember reading this story a few months ago with a bunch of these jobs:

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/03/02/ten-hottest-job-opportunities/

I may have $100,000 in debt from going to school for museum work, but at least I can support myself now on my original love, dressmaking. I've been sewing full-time for two months and doing well enough to get by.

Having a borrowed car break down on a trip to the Southwest got me listening to Car Talk. What had heretofore been my prejudice of gear heads is now a deep respect for the most useful people in the country.

I have a Bachelor's degree from a very selective university and a Masters degree in my field. But I've always wanted to know how to do two things:

1. Work on a car. I open the hood and all I see is a gigantic knot of wires and hoses. Other than change wiper blades and fluid, I have no idea which thingy does what under that hood.

2. Work on my house. Home improvement shows make the complete renovation of a 19th century Queen Anne in an hour appear to be a piece of cake. I don't even know how to turn on a power saw or the difference between a T-square and an U-joint.

My Dad worked long hours for a financial services company in an office in Manhattan, so he never tinkered with his car or repaired anything in the house.

My employer's CFO hit the community college circuit and learned how to handle an acetylene torch. He welded some cool things and brought them to work to proudly show everyone.

My lack of skills actually makes me feel less masculine...perhaps I make up for it by discussing more sports with my male peers ;-)

After reading the article yesterday, it is telling that there is a lack of non-B.A./B.S. educated employees to fill certain technically skilled positions. It seems to me that the U.S. decides to look down on what is considered higher end blue collar jobs even as there are still some service-related and manufacturing jobs that are necessary to every advanced economy, even with the push and pull of globalization. Good jobs are good jobs.

My question to Dr. Sennet: Would it be useful for the U.S. education system to beef up vocational and more technical schooling along with apprenticeship programs in high school, and treat them with more respect? I'm thinking of what occurs traditionally in the UK with trades, geared towards more flexibility and 21st Century American jobs.

Priya [1], I don't think that this can be classified as a "theory." It is simply an expression or revealing of collected data.

But that aside, I don't understand the context of your question. what do you mean? What makes you ask that?

isn't there a gender bias towards men in this theory?