wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

Brian,

Hasn't WNYC reported on this before? If not, shame on you and your station.

The Mengele question sounds like an automatic recourse to Holocaust exceptionalism. In fact, the SS had legions of doctors and other highly educated professionals, and they were directly involved in running the selection ramps and gas chambers.

How is the behavior of American doctors NOT a step on that path?

Im going to take a page from the old 'Peter from Sunset Park' playbook.
Torture is wrong period. End of story.

Oh, Brian, this is OLD news. It's even been reported in the NYTimes. And I suppose this means that you haven't read Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine."

BTW, you asked your guest, "You aren't comparing this to Dr. Mengele, are you?" Why not, Brian? What's the difference?

Actually, Peter, even the generals oppose torture, for practical reasons:

http://armchairgeneralist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/09/38_retired_mili.html

Samuel,

Torture to save lives and fight terror is ugly, but at times, necessary. Torture to stop people from peaceful protests is wrong. As I said before, this is a conversation of nuance, but you do not seem interested in nuance. But I am glad you are back now and decided to discuss issues again.

Peter-- You should consider moving to a different country such like Iran or Saudi Arabia.
You would fit right in there and feel at home with the knowledge that torture is alive and well.
Heck you might even get a little tortured if you one day decided to speak out against the ruling few.
Dude you are so right on Pete!

Claire,

No excuse, ever you say? Wow, I would say that torturing one terrorsits to save the lives of millions would be a good thing.

Torturing a few German generals to find Hitler, a good thing.

Torturing a driver to find out where he just dropped off a kidnapped woman who is being raped, a good thing.

and so on...

This is absolutely chilling. There can be no excuse for torture, ever.

Here is a passage from The Feast of the Goat, by Mario Vargas Llosa, where he describes the SIM (secret police) doctors who assisted Trujillo in torturing his prisoners:

"He[Salvador Estrella Sadhala] prayed in all his free and lucid moments, and sometimes even when he was asleep or unconscious. But not when they were torturing him. On the Throne, pain and fear paralyzed him. From time to time a SIM doctor would come to listen to his heart and give him an injection that revived him."

Providing medical care to facilitate torture does not seem to fall within the boundaries of the Hippocratic Oath.

When Brian asks, "you're not really comparing this to Dr Mengele, are you..." that's missing the point----it's all on a spectrum. enabling in any way torture, no matter how "mild" to the untrained eye, is a violation of the fundamental ethics of physicians. What you are arguing, Peter--that essentially we should fight fire with fire, allows us to stoop to the level of the enemy. Pretty soon its hard to distinguish right from wrong. Depends whose "terror" ox is being gored. Most "professionals," by the way, feel that torture is ineffectual and counterproductive.

Sorry for the typo-- "...diminished."

I am dismayed, to say the least, that WNYC- and Brian Lehrer in particular-- have taken such an apparently neutral position on this matter. There can be no blurring of this fact: participation in water-boarding by physicians is wrong and damnable. Any attempt to explain or excuse it is disingenuous at best and, frankly, morally bankrupt. I am ashamed that the station and BL have not unequivocally condemned the practice and those who would try to whitewash it.

My support, financial and otherwise, of WYNC will hereafter be seriously dimished.

Sorry, wrong link.. on the APA controversy

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/08/15/apa_torture/

Here's some more:

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/10/apa_approves_measure_
banning_member_psychologists

I know Democracy Now gets beaten up a lot as "opinion journalism" on wnyc, but guess what? They reported on this over three months ago.

See this from 2005:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/marks

we were just doing our jobs
we were just following orders
everybody's doing it

Yeah, there was a giant disruption in the American Psychiatric Association leadership over this issue. Your surprise makes me suspect that public radio didn't report on that, Brian? Wow. I know very little about anything, and even I was following that. I'm starting to feel a little speechless here.

Mornings with Sam and Pete!

Give these cats their own show. I'd listen.

Sam,

I disagree. There is much nuance, but you have signaled that you do not wish to discuss the issue further. When you are ready to discuss the issue further, Peter from Sunset is here.

I'm not going to get into with you Peter.
This issue is not a simple one and you seem to want to see it as black and white as usual.
Are you a politician?

Brian Lehrer is always talking about proportionality in war, at least, when it comes to Israel and Israel only. It seems to me that torturing terrorists to prevent more terrorism is proportional to the initial event.

Sam,

Good question. I don't know what Iran, the Palestinian Authority and others are paying terrorists these days. I do know that Hamas and Fatah go around handing out buckets of cash.

Underestimating terrorists does not seem wise to me. Hamas, the 9/11 terrorists, Hezbollah and other terrorists are organized, smart, disciplined and professional. Our response needs to be the same. Torture is one such response.

Thanks for enlightening me on this subject. I never realized that there was such a thing as professional terrorist.
And, now that you have really given a strong argument that torture is a 'solution to terrorism' I have to tell you, I'm convinced.
How much does a professional terrorist earn in these harsh economic times?

Samuel,

I am saying that terrorism is developed by professionals and that torture, a response and possible solution to terrorism, is also developed by professionals. When terrorists professionally plan and attack civilians, our response should also be professional.

Peter are you saying that terrorism is developed by medical professionals?
Otherwise I would ask you to clarify your point for me please?

It is worth noting that terrorism is also supervised and developed by professionals.