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josh
if u hate me can i lock u in my basement and starve you and hope your friends and family stop wondering how you are doing?
better yet if u hate me can i kill 25% of the people u know because they talked to u today?

collective punishment is medieval. where's the peace. with peace there is no hamas

Similarly mainland US would probably be grateful to be free of Manhattan - though the Bridge and Tunnel crowd would be miffed.

If Oslo was aggreed to, there would be no settlements being built

Josh,

Thank you for your honest answer. I, too, wish the same. I simply want to threat of stop the blood shed of all to stop (yes, I do have family in Israel).

As to the artice, I did look at it. More importantly, aside from the fact that it was authored in 2006, is I did a word search re food..two citations, neither applicable.

Edward,

Your second point first...what????

Your first point - your are correct that the charter does not recognize the State of Israel. However, despite same, we (Israel) entered into a cease fire agreement with Hamas which worked (179 vs. 3 monthly launches). We have to admit to ourselves that we do not want peace. If your premise were to hold true - relying on the stated goals of charters, declarations of war, etc. no one on earth would ever make peace.

Yes, Israel does recognise Abbas as a partner. The problem is, he can't seal a deal, too many factions. But notice how its only Gaza (ie Hamas) that's in question.

Josh said:

Everybody attacks Israel for breaking International law. How come, nobody attacks the Palestinians for breaking International law.

This is not true. I read the Amnesty International and B'Tselem reports. They take great care to criticize each side for their violating international law.

Brian does a good job, but Democracy Now asks the tough questions that he's too courteous to ask.

kiki
i could anwser u but they would just take it down!

Norman, that's not what Dennis Ross told me himself. He told me that Arafat rejected his map too.

#57, Hamas "extremists" empower Israel and bring pain and suffering to Palestinians.

hjs, I wonder how you would react to an "ineffective" rocket landing near you or your family.

Josh #48 - It is not true that the borders were open for Gaza to trade and for people to move around. - Israel is using the excuse that it no longer occupies Gaza in order to blame Palestinians - what is NOT MENTIONED is that Israel quikcly moved to close the borders and seal Palestinians in and open a couple of border crossings that are restrictive - Produce farmed for export was detained in the border until it spoiled. The only goods Israel allows in are donations and handouts from the International community. They do not allow Palestinians to produce and export. Water flow is restricted as well as electricity in order to destroy their economy.
Imagine if the US gave 'independence' to Manhattan and then sealed it off and did not allow goods and services to come in and out and controled travel through the Airports in Queens, and began to ration electricity and water from upstate in order to create a state of siege.
I'm sure Manhattanites would be VERY HAPPY and GRATEFUL after a couple of years of this.

Hjs. Can I lob rockets toward your house because I hate your entire existence? If I miss does that mean you won't fight back?

ed, josh
you focus on hamas. has israel been working with the PA and abbas to seek peace?
how many west bank settlements have been built in the years since oslo?

Josh

I read Dennis Ross' book. He gives 1 map. Gush Shalom gives 3 maps. Ross' map is the 3rd map, which Gush Shalom says was given after the negotiations were over, so Arafat never had a chance to accept it.

edward
i would have made peace by now so your point is moot!
israel's actions empowers extremists.
the ineffective rockets should not be used as an excuse, unless one's real goal is war without end or genocide

hjs -

My comment was edited by WNYC. It did ask whether genocide was the solution and if Josh could live with himself with same. I do not know why that would violate the guideline - it is a legitimate, civil and brief comment.

#18 hjs
No.

You make an extremely valuable point.
My main reason for wanting a peace settlement between Israelis and Palestinians is to stop the bloodshed of innocent civilians on both sides.
Secondarily, an Israeli Palestinian deal would be one of Al Qaeda's worst nightmares.
I hope the US can bring the Palestinians and Israelis together in order to deal a body blow to Al Qaeda.

Kiki are you willing to live with the openly stated genocidal goals of the Hamas charter, of the Islamic Republic of iran to destroy Israel and destroy the US?

Also, obviously you didn't even look at the article of the University of maryland. It is part of the whole report

I wish for a two state solution period. I want the Palestinians to stop attacking jews and respect their right to exist. I want the Jews to let the Palestinians be and live and let live. Normal relations will probably not happen, but a mutual peaceful existence is fine for me.

kiki

clearly genocide is the goal. interesting twist of history the victim becomes the new bully

Josh,

I hope this will be my last comment. Must return to work.

Once again, I ask you to provide credible citation. I have reviewed your posts. One cites vegetable growers IN ISRAEL and the other has nothing to do with the anything. As an aside, and even if one were to accept the first as valid, it would be nice to see a cite that is not from 2006...and one which takes into account the blockade that has been in place by Israel for the past 18 months..not to be picky ....

In any event, I earnestly ask you, what is the solution?

"Democracy Now" seems a bit of a misnomer.

Shouldn't that show be more accurately called
"Socialism Now" or "Jihad Now"?

edward 47
what percent of gaza launched rockets kill?

Antonio, the rockets came first. Gaza is restricted because hamas smuggles weapons. Israel completely pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Not one Jew (besides those kidnapped by the Palestinians) had stepped in there until this conflict. By the way, the hostages are still there. The borders were open until Hamas started firing weapons on a regular basis. There has to be consequences. Would you let people who shoot at you in your house?

Anyone who thinks that Hamas firing rockets, missiles, mortars into Israel is just a nuisance, consider living across the street from a neighbor who is envious of you, hates you, daily teaches their kids to hate you and randomly shoots at you and and family.

Would that be OK with you?

I have heard on sources such as democracy now, wbai etc that the Hammas rocket attacks are a reaction to the heavy restrictions and control (inside the territories) that the Israelis put on the the palestinians. Does anyone know more about this from either perspective.

Right, Palestine are non-state actors. Does that make them exempt and free to attack someone else? Israel is condemned and they don't stop. The US was condemned by the world, that didn't work. To think Palestine would stop no buses would blow up because of UN sanctions in incredibly naive. Look at Africa, etc...UN sanctions hold less then zero teeth. They can't enforce anything. When one country seeks the destruction of another, a piece of paper in the UN library is just that.

Here's your food aid and others

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11274019.html

there's also http://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/crsreports/crsdocuments/RL33566_07212006.pdf

Final Note

I do not see the world as Jew vs. Arab,white against black, or conversative vs. liberal.

I see the world as those who value human life and respect the rule of law and what is just vs. those who do not.

I honor all people who, in their hearts, recognize the difference between wrong and right and have the courage to speak up and say "enough" and "never again".

jose 28
oslo offer of swiss cheese bantustans was no a great deal
and why would egypt and jordan want what's left of the palestinian land? then they would be blamed by israel for every palestinian extremists and war to follow.

Norman Read Dennis Ross' book. Arafat lied to the world about what the real deal was. True, there were pockets of settlements close to Israel, but the Bank was contiguous.

Magnus, read the manifestos of Hamas, the PLFP, Hezbollah, etc. They all call for the extermination of the Jews. Arafat might have come to the table, but did not see israel as legitimate. Besides he lied and stole millions of dollars in aid that was suppos to go Palestine, he saw peace as a way of consolidating and maintaining power. besides, he wasn't even palestinian

Again, disporportionality. The only reason less Jews have died, is because Hamas couldn't hit the side of a barn. they lob 200+ missles of week, but miss. is it Israel's fault that less people died? Could you imaging if each missle killed 5 each like suicide bombers? What if someone shot at you 200 times a week, but missed. Does that make it ok?

Josh,

As I have previously done, please provide a credible citation as to your allegation that "Hamas refuses food aid from Israel."

As to your comment that no one attacks Hamas for violating international law, obviously you do not watch MSM.

Edward #37 - I know that my proposed solution is radical - But those Bhudas were not sources of fighting and so many wars - Remember the Crusades? - I have a problem with these religious zealots ( be it radical Jews who want to exterminate Palestinians and establish a 'biblical' state; Hamas and the Taliban who use religion to spread hate and violence; and so called 'Christians' who have used their 'values' to kill and torture people and to imprison them).
We, as humanity, need to decide to cut our loses - if people are going to fight for control of these 'sacrosanct', 'holy' sites then those sites should be destroyed so humanity can move on. - Just keep a good record of them - Humanity does not deserve these historical sites.

To JOSH FROM BROOKLYN:
Palestinian are not held accountable to international law because they are non-state actors. If they had a state they could be held accountable. So, help them get one, and I'm quite sure that no more buses will be blown up.

the Taliban did a form of your plan when they dynamited the two 1,500 year old Buddahs of Bamyan Afghanistan in March 2001 - a few months before 9/11.

Those Buddahs existed during the lifetime of Muhammed, didn't offend Muhammed, but did offend the Taliban. The Taliban are more orthodox than Muhammed.

Everybody attacks Israel for breaking International law. How come, nobody attacks the Palestinians for breaking International law. I hear very little about the palestinians crimes against humanity. During both Intifada's nobody said anything when suicide bombers blew up buses. There were no sanctions, the EU still gave them billions. There was not one UN resolution. Israel gives $25 million to the Palestine Authority a year in aid. How come nobody mentions that. hamas refuses food aid from Israel.

I don't know what "Operation Cast Lead" is.

I'm more than a little disappointed Brian, this discussion was far too slanted to the Israeli position. The final question that we were left with was "how to end this war with Israel safe from rocket attacks?" Excuse me, but how can this question even be asked with a straight face when exactly ONE Israeli was killed between June and the current invasion!? What of the 800 dead Palestinians? They were painfully absent from the discussion. Furthermore, asserting that Hamas's only aim is the destruction of Israel is childish and dishonest. Their 'resistance' is primarily to establish a Palestinian homeland. PLO was the same and they came around to accepting Israel. Very disappointed, usually a very inquisitive and neutral line is taken but but not today.

To Peter from Sunset Park:

Aside from reading from the talking points of "Operation Cast Lead", please provide evidence by way of credible citations, your allegations in Post No. 3.

As a grandchild of a Holocaust survivor, I am ashamed that the world, once again, remains silent to the atrocities we witness.

This "operation" is not in the name of all jews.

Josh,

If you want to see what Barak offered at Oslo, search Google for

Gush Shalom Barak's Generous Offer

The actual offer would have cut the West Bank in 3 parts, and taken control of their borders.

One of the Israeli negotiators said that he wouldn't have accepted it if he were on the Palestinian side.

There is already an agreement on a 2-state solution - The International community should just give the Jews and Palestinians an Ultimatum - IMPLEMENT The agreement from the end of Clinton's administration in 6 months or we implement it by force -
There is PLENTY of Money to pay for a military force to forcibly separate both people and maintain them separated so they can build their economies as American and Europen Taxpayers continue to throw BILLIONS of dollars each year rebuilding infraestructure they destroy and to provide food, healthcare, and shelter in the form of handouts for the Millions of Palestinians who are not allowed to own land or work.
This money can be diverted to forcibly separate them.

Gaza must be demilitarized.

An International Force should be installed in Gaza to ensure that no attacks emanate AND target Gaza.

Finkelstein said the Israelis didn't leave Gaza. They continue the blockade.

Eva, I expect (or actually desire, expect is asking too much) is a genuine committment to peace. Time and time again, Israel has thrown the olive brach, and the Palestinians have rejected it without even attempting to stay at the table. At Oslo, barak offered, 97% of the west bank, pulling all settlements, all of East Jerusalem, Gaza, and a bridge linking the two territories over israel, paying for it themselves. What did the Palestinians do? The said no, abruptly left the table and started the second intifada. This disporportional argument is nonsense. Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately at civilians. Are you saying israel should do that too? They are trying to destroy the infrastructure that attacks them. going tit for tat is ridiculous. Civilians die because Hamas puts them in harms way. The put arms and command centers under hospitals, Dig tunnels to smuggle weapons under residental homes. let's look at aid. They steal aid trucks for themselves creating a black market that includes currency selling. Don't gorget, Egypt doesn't want Gaza either, Israel is not the only one sealing the borders

Peter,

We need international law to make it clear that it's wrong to indiscriminately target children, whether the Palestinians or Israelis are doing it.

Search Google for

Amnesty International Killing the Future

if you want the facts about killing children by both sides.

I'm posting this not because I want to debate it, but to give you the courtesy of a reply.

Freemasons?
are they still around?

His middle name is his middle name because it was his father's middle name that's all.

brian
your question implies leaders on either side want peace!

Any discussion of peace in the Middle East, Israel's security, and Hamas' non-recognition of the State of Israel must also include Nabka because it is central to all the problems in that region today.

Norman,

Does one really need international law to make the determination that specifically targeting children for execution is wrong? I don't.

Eva,

Calling names, calling me names like “lunatic” is not civil and I protest your style of discussing difficult topics. I know that this conflict brings out strong emotions, but I am attempting to have a discourse in a respectful manner. I suggest to you that you try and discuss these topics more respectfully. Please stop calling names.

I simply don’t believe in international law. Take for example, the UN. 70-75% of all UN resolutions are against Israel. While the UN is busy being anti-Semitic, it effectively ignores many of the world’s problems. If international law and organizations were balanced, I would take them seriously. At this point, the UN and the international court made themselves meaningless. And that is a shame. While the UN goes after Israel, the rest of the world burns.

Ugg. More twisted justifications for state violence from Brian Lerher. When will we retire these twisted justifications that paint our motivations as overly generous and optimistic? When will we admit we are driven by the same criminal and nationalistic impulses that drive all invasions and occupations?

Can any supporter of Hamas please explain why according to the Hamas Charter, easily found on the Internet, Hamas is against Freemasons, the Rotary Club and the Lions Club???

Note that the nazis didn't like Freemasons either.

Yosuf, you're right.

binladen (remember him wanted: dead or alive) released a new tape today call for holy war against israel.

can the war on terror ever end without a 2 state solution?

In the case of Haiti it was a less democratic place.

Finkelstein's second point was that Hamas has signaled that they want a diplomatic settlement along the 1967 border.

Question:

If Hamas agrees to a settlement along the 1967 border, should we and Israel agree to it?

Peter,

If you don't believe in international law, then why is it wrong to kill children?

" The international law argument may work well on Arab satellite television stations..."

Okay. I'm not an Arab satellite TV station, and I do believe international law matters, regardless of what, as Americans, we've done to it in the last eight years.

At the point when Americans start intimating, as Cheney did, as Peter has, that international law somehow doesn't matter, you should realize what kind of lunatics you're dealing with.

Usually Brian is on point with the facts, but when I heard him say yesterday that Hamas broke the cease fire, I wonder if he knew about Israel's incursion into Gaza on Nov 4th where they killed 6 Palestinians? Does he not consider that a breaking the cease fire, or does he ignore that and tote the line?

Norman,

International law is ignored by all sides and is only called upon for media attention. All negotiations have treated Palestinian terrorist attacks and Israeli “settlements” as negotiating chips. The international law argument may work well on Arab satellite television stations, but Palestinian and Israeli negotiators have understood for some time that such issues are settled during negotiations. In other words, lawyers will not solve this conflict.

Now as far as the November 4th defensive actions by Israel – Hamas fired many rockets into Israel during the so called cease fire. So, as you well know after listening to the program you mention, the Israeli argument is that you can’t break a cease fire that the Palestinians never implemented.

Norman, what were these Palestinian militants doing when they were struck down by Israel?

Were they launching rockets towards Israel?

Here's my best question:

In 1967, Theodor Meron, the legal counsel to Israel's foreign ministry, said in a memorandum that putting settlers in the occupied territories was absolutely illegal under international law. Other international lawyers agree.

Do the Israeli settlements violate international law?

If they do, shouldn't Israel follow international law, regardless of what the Palestinians do?

This was Finkelstein's first point:

On November 4th, Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point Hamas in retaliation for the Israeli attack launched the missiles.

So here's my question:

Ambassador Indyk, is it true that Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4th by killing six or seven Palestinian militants?

If they didn't want their citizens to be harmed by Hamas rockets, why did they kill the Palestinian militants?

Josh ,
I usually enjoy reading your comments, and appreciate one of the common theme they share. Namely, that too many Palestinians, Arabs, and Hamas neither take responsibility nor recognize Israel's right to exist.

While I think everyone recognizes the obvious drawbacks in negotiating with such a group, I have to ask myself what, exactly, you expect from Palestinians and Hamas, and whether those expectations are reasonable under the circumstances, or simply a way of justifying the recent disproportionate attacks on Gaza, which, to an outsider, appear to be undermining whatever is left of international support Israel.

What the Jews had to go through before 1948 was unimaginably horrific. But ignoring the situation the Palestinians find themselves in (yes, much of it of their own making but much of it NOT, such as the pressure cooker-situation enforced by Israel in Gaza) does not seem like a rational approach to long-term survival in a sea of Arabs.
As an American, I also have to ask what risks/potential blowback you think the current Israeli actions are creating for Americans here and abroad. I note that bin Laden (yes, him AGAIN) has recently announced a holy war over Gaza.
In this case, I have to say thanks but no thanks to Israel, whose stubborn refusal to acknowledge the larger picture is now upping the risk for everyone.

Here's the Amy Goodman interview with Martin Indy and Norman Finkelstein on Democracy Now Thursday http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/8/former_amb_martin_indyk_vs_author
Look at the transcript and see if there were any issues he didn't give a satisfactory answer to that you can follow up today.
(Sorry I can't give an active link but the message system here won't let me use html markup)

Brian,

Just like Jews and Palestinians and other forces are caught in a vicious circle of violence and blame, our discussions on this issue are also caught in a vicious circle of going nowhere.

So let’s try a new conversation. In 1973, Egypt attacked Israel and faired much better in this war then they (Egypt) did in 1948, 1956 and 1967. Many historians believe that after proving themselves as better soldiers in 73, Egypt was able to negotiate peace with Israel because their pride was restored.

Does Mr. Indyk believe that Palestinians are stuck in a similar rut? Are Palestinians harboring hopes that they may be strong enough to begin hitting some targets and inflicting serious damage on Israel before entering into serious peace negotiations? My gut is that regardless of how strong or inept Palestinian terrorists become, in the end, they are going to get the same deal as Clinton offered at Tabba and Camp David. So are the Palestinians fighting for pride?

Josh,

Yes, great point. I will say that Brian has asked a few Arab and Arab American guests such questions, but it does seem to be treated as a minor issue by most journalists. I agree that journalists really need to press Palestinians and their supporters to question methods used towards Israel. Let me add a few more questions to ask Palestinians and their supporters:

5. Why don’t you thank Hamas for building hospitals and providing other social services while also asking them to stop this “exterminate the Jews” nonsense?

6. Why have Palestinians tolerated being used as puppets by Russia and now Iran?

7. Why do so many leading supporters of the Palestinians deny that Israel has made legitimate peace offers, most recently during the Clinton White House years? How does a peace process continue when one side responds to peace offers with waves of suicide bombings? Why not make a single counteroffer?

8. Why has Gaza been used as a launching pad? Why did you destroy Gaza when you could have built malls, soccer fields and schools?

Peter at #3 stresses important points that have been largely ignored in condemning Israel's actions. However, Indyk, who I have great respect for, is Jewish and American. These questions need to be asked of Arab Muslims who are derailing the peace process. I have confidence that I already know his answers. Brian, why don't you have these Arabs on the show who can address these points? What I really want to know is how Hamas and others expect peace without recognising Israel to begin with. They claim Israel doesn't want peace, but yet their manifesto calls for Jewish destruction. I would love to know how this works. Indyk can surely give his experience, but that won't truly answer the questions.

Brian,

The first poster this morning had a great point. Some Jewish opinion writers such as Norman Finkelstein are highly critical of Israel. Could you please ask Mr. Indyk if there are any voices on the Palestinian, Arab or Muslim side who can or have safely criticized Hamas and the choices made by Palestinians? For example, are there voices on the Palestinian side of things who can safely criticize Palestinians for:

1. Using their own children as human shields.
2. Tying bombs to their own children to blow up Jews.
3. Turning down peace deals without ever having made a single counteroffer. and
4. Specifically targeting Jewish children.

Martin Indyk has been highly critical of Fatah for “conceding” Gaza to Hamas without putting up a fight. Please ask Mr. Indyk:

How do you make peace with Fatah when Fatah will not stand up to Hamas? How is a two state solution possible if a Fatah lead government does not have the courage to take on Hamas?

Two days ago this guy would not even debate or talk to Norman Finkelstein on Democracy Now. That was very peurile and churlish on his part. But I suppose that besides talking about his book, he will comment on the current situation in Palestine, hypocritically blathering on about wanting peace and using diplomacy as a tool to achieve that while launching opprobrium Hamas. I'm sure I'll be convinced.