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I was rather surprised by the last comment on the show that the incidence of rape of women by other women is almost as high as that of conventional rape, for lack of a better term. I have never heard of a women being prosecuted for raping a woman. How could this be so? Did I hear that right? Please explain?

Dear Beth Tracey,

I agree with you about preparing your daughter for the real world-it would be irrational not to. But I also believe that being frank about its unfairness, and envisioning a world in which women have the freedom that men take for granted, is worthwhile. I have been sexually assaulted. I know the harsh reality firsthand, and I certainly would give my daughter every possible advice in order to prevent the same thing from happening to her. But I would also give her a dose of indignation so that, God forbid something happened, she would feel empowered to hold her attackers accountable in a way that I didn't. We need to talk about this, and we need to stop blaming the victim.

Women showing their ankles have been seen as inviting sex (like women who kiss and then have the nerve to say no to sex, according to #43). Women who were not virgins (even rape victims) have been considered fair game, regardless of whether they consented to sex or not. In those contexts, one would take precautions, but it would also make sense to fight for change.

That's why I think that Yes Means Yes is important: they seem to be pushing for a better "real world." Take a self defense class with your daughter. Give her cab fare if she's coming home alone at night. But in addition to that, it's worth thinking about why you're shelling out for all of the above. The authors are questioning the assumptions that we start with about rape, and they are challenging men to start taking responsibility for their own sexuality. To me, the belief that men are incapable of resisting a short skirt, or a naked ankle, or a makeout session is an insult to them. That's why they're men, not beasts, right?

"Second, you have never addresses my point which is the fact pattern, woman is making out with a man, they are naked and both fully aroused, just about to have intercourse, she all of sudden says no, no, I don't want to. So they stop, then at a later date, she goes out with him again and they start to make out again in the same pattern as above and just before intercourse she says no, no.

That behavior is wrong. "

Does the idea that rape is not an alternative to making better decisions about social interaction ever cross anyone's mind here?

Seems to me that from some of the personal history that is hinted at in this discussion, some of us might want to really look at our personal history. Given the number of times in this discussion or in others that I have heard before (being over the age of twenty-one, I've heard my share) that the woman who is a "tease" keeps coming up. Sounds to me like some of us need to look at the decisions they make, not speculate endlessly about the status of the ones that other people make.

and where do these rules come from?

"In the vision that Ms. Friedman and Peterson have of male sexuality and attitudes toward women, all men would be metrosexual and even gay. Instead of learning the rules of dealing with men, so they want to turn men into eunuchs."

Gee, I think I might put this comment into a Wikipedia entry as the working definition of hysteria, or of over-reacting. It does seem to be that.

"The point is if a woman dresses scantily, she is sending a message that she is on the prowl looking for sex, she goes back to his place, she is sending him a message she will have sex with him."

I had some comments to make that sort of involved parsing this discussion in other terms, but then I saw that little bit about how a woman dressed in a particular fashion is "sending messages." Interesting comment, but it would seem to me that it's about "receiving messages," too. And I would suggest that people who thinking in terms of messages that are being sent and not the ones that are being received are really not much better on balance than the tin foil hat wearing crowd. Loons, in other words. That old saw, about how "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder" has some applicability here. Because after all, if one tends to interpret things in a fashion, one will do so. Deviancy will out afterall. And maybe it's really tiresome that some men, but not all men, are just looking for an excuse to say silly things. And do worse.

When I sat there listening with my morning coffee, I did find myself thinking about a young woman I knew back in high school, a friend and neighbor, who used to walk with me back home from school, and as we walked she would be the object of unsought and unwanted commentary from the older men standing around on street corners (It was the Lower East Side in the early 70s, so it was common. This being the era of construction workers with numerous opinions about breast size after all). Even I, the dull-witted male, knew she didn't like it.

O from Forest Hills
i'm shocked at ur statements. i can change my mind anytime i want for any reason, why can't she?
sure she should keep herself safe and don't do anything dumb like bring someone home she doesn't know well, but are u saying it's ok for someone to be raped if they wear a slutty dress? how is rape any different then punching someone in the face. men can control themselves and there's no excuse to ever force someone because
a) free sex is very easy to get. b) he can 'take care of himself' if need be.
rape might be more about control and other issues than sex.

mlj 25 what was wrong with my question?

The point is if a woman dresses scantily, she is sending a message that she is on the prowl looking for sex, she goes back to his place, she is sending him a message she will have sex with him.

You have never addresses my point which is the fact pattern, woman is making out with a man, they are naked and both fully aroused, just about to have intercourse, she all of sudden says no, no, I don't want to. So they stop, then at a later date, she goes out with him again and they start to make out again in the same pattern as above and just before intercourse she says no, no.

That behavior is wrong. First time she said no, okay, second time, notice I did not say she deserved to be raped, you are adding that to my statement, I said the teasing behavior is wrong.

Think from logic, not emotion. Teasing and getting a guy hot and bothered is not okay, same for a woman too. Women can't go around teasing men, especially in that scenario I gave you above and oh, once it is no and then again no and again get him going and then no, that is being nasty and manipulative to feed the women's ego and it is garbage.

I don't buy your argument. I am not convinced.

Try a different angle and if you want to persuade people, don't tell them they are sick. it doesn't make people give you credit. Present your argument to me logically.

Why is it okay to keep going off with a guy and getting to the point of sex and then saying no, no, i don't want to and to keep doing that with the guy. Blah, blah, blah, it is the women's right to say no, and according to the guests is it okay to be stupid, not on my time or the guy's. That teasing is wrong!

O from Forest Hills, I couldn't agree more! Woe that a man should "get going" and not have the orgasm to which he is entitled by his very birth! In fact, I think I will apply that rule to the men in my life - no longer will they be permitted to get me "going" and not "follow through." Starting now, my mantra shall be "Play the game or not, gentleman, but don't tease!" Thank you for giving me the words to claim what is rightfully mine!

O from Forest Hills, I do not live in a dream world.

When black people were not allowed to vote, or sit in white restaurants, white people said that that was that way things were. They said that was life. And it was wrong, and things changed b/c people spoke out. Things will change for women because we will speak out. And not let people like you oppress up, rape us, assault us.

A woman is never asking for it. That is just plain sick. you need to rethink your view of women and respect. Try walking in someone else's shoes for one day.

#18: throughout history, decent men have always been respectful of women and rape has always been considered a deplorable act. It's when some people insist that a woman should take zero responsibility in the sexual arena that problems occur.

No decent person EVER tolerates violence against women (or men). But we need to recognize that a lot of dogma coming out of the feminist and queer circles regarding sexuality has an agenda and is disconnected from reality.

To remind yourself what happens when you are disconnected from reality, think of the Bush administration and the past 8 years.

david!
but seriously I think it's gross but why should my tax dollars be spent on victimless crimes like prostitution or drugs use.
(I'm not talking about child prostitution or sex slavery)

#31, Neil. A lesbian is still a woman. And as a woman, has to deal with men is daily life. And is also is a sexual being whether or not you can accept it. She has just as much right to talk about it.

Also, just because you read something on a mug, does not mean every lesbian hates men. Its just plain crazy to judge a whole group of people on a saying you saw on one mug. As a queer woman, I have many male friends and men in my life that I love and respect, and being attracted to women doesn't change that.

l from bk, live in your dream world.

You dress that way, you are asking for it. You go off with the guy, be prepared to follow through, not be a tease. It doesn't work that way and that will never change.

If you dress sexy, you are asking for attention and that is it. It is life!

There, now I am your cause you must fix me, convince me to think your way b/c I am wrong b/c I don't think like you.

david!
i think i know why!

No O, #28, a woman can decide at anytime she doesn't want it. Even if you don't like it it is her right. Also a woman can wear what she wants with out a man expecting sex, what you are saying is ridiculous, and part of the problem. I like to dress up for myself, to feel sexy, but that doesn't mean I want to have sex with you.

How would you feel if you were dressed nicely and another man started feeling you up and telling you that you want it because of how you look? I don't think you would like that. And neither do we.

And #29, I am sickened as well, see my comment #18.

I am disgusted that if we don't fit into the "correct" mindset of the guests we are barbarians and we have to be retrained as #26 MLJ for example says we must be taught to think another way.

I don't think so. If you go off with the guy, you are saying yes, that is garbage to say yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.

Either do it or not. but don't play games. we all play games of seduction or courtship, if you are going off with the guy to have sex, you better be ready or don't go off.

I am sick of the games and then we can play with the man and say no when he is ready to go and we got him that way and no is no. I don't think so!

Thanks, l. And I like that term "heteronormative."

I would be interested in hearing more about the gang rape phenomenon. I think that this problem is more widespread among American teen boys than we realize, and that it has been largely overlooked by most while popular culture has (to some degree) promoted it. When I was in high school in the 1990's, a group of my guy friends had a tradition of "running trains" on girls, which meant that they would find a girl that would (or was known to regularly) consent to having sex (orally or vaginally) with several of young men. They would essentially take turns with her, and it was seen as kind of a team building exercise, and a way for the less attractive guys to get sex without having to court a girl. I was the girl that they hung out with for fun - I always had a boyfriend outside of the group, and was never around when they had these girls over. But I heard about the "trains" a lot, and somehow justified it as normal male behavior, consensual sex involving a girl who was predisposed to this sort of act. Over the years it has become clear to me that these "trains" were really a form of rape, and that the girls involved were probably vulnerable and in need of serious emotional treatment. I have also heard similar stories from people who went to other schools in other states, and it is clear to me that this issue is one that needs to be brought out into the open and that kids throughout the country need to be taught that this behavior is not fair, it is not safe, and it is not excusable.

How come a lesbian (Ms. Friedman) is allowed to lecture straight people about sexuality? As a lesbian she is completely biased and might even have an agenda. It's like a vegetarian telling carnivores what kind of meat to eat.

I once saw a lesbian with a mug which said "if we can send one man to the moon, why don't we send them all?" With that kind of attitude, they should stop lecturing and let straight women decide for themselves.

Lastly, these women advocate risky, exciting sexual behavior, without the actual risk. Maybe they should come back to earth and recognize there is a reason some actions are called "risky".

David-

Good question. Queer is a term that was taken back by the LGBT community. Many use it as a positive term. Myself included. It does not necessarily mean Gay, thought it can, but usually means someone that doesn't conform to heteronormative society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer

Is anyone else super grossed out by #4's comment?

#18, I disagree. why can a woman say okay, let's go, no, let's not and then the guy may back off and then the same girl with the same guy pulls that garbage again. NO way!

She is being a tease and it is not right, can't get a guy going and then not follow through. Play the game or not but don't tease.

I don't totally agree with these women that wrote this book. If you are advertising you want sex, you will attract attention, if you don't want it, don't act and dress like that.

As the mother of a 17 year old young woman I completely disagree with your guest. Yes, it is utterly unfair that certain kinds of "having fun" need to be curtailed to keep us safe, but who said life is fair. It is important for women to understand the pitfalls and dangers that they put themselves in when they engage in excessive drinking, being out alone at night, etc. I would rather my daughter feel compelled to forego a night on the town with her girlfriends than deal with the life long trauma of a sexual assault.

Thank you for covering this issue. I know many women who have been raped, none of them who pressed charges due to the stigma, "lack of evidence," the fact that it was a friend of a friend, etc... or even because of the kind of disruption & trauma this causes.

The few comments posted (#1, #4, #5) & the kind of attitudes they reflect shows exactly how far we have to go in terms of reframing the issue.

No means no assumes that women are in a position to say no - but the unequal power dynamic between men and women and the implicit threat in that relationship can prevent a woman from saying no.

@ Neil - "The RULES"??? What is this, grade school? There are no RULES but the golden one; you treat people as you would have them treat you.

Sometimes when a woman stops mid-makeout, it's because she's come to from a bit too much drink. Put your mother or sister into the equation and tell me you still think it's her fault for not knowing "the rules."

While a woman should never be blamed for being raped, your guests almost seem to be suggesting that women shouldn't take steps to protect themselves because they shouldn't have to. Living your life according to an ideal rather than the reality like that seems like it can only add rather than diminish the victimization of women.

As a rape victim I can tell you that Camille Paglia is the only one who gets this right: a society that tells its young women that it's okay and their "right" to go out and party without a framework for them to do so safely is wrong.

Young men in american society generally do not have a right of passage, so when they are released into college parties with booze and drugs, and young women do the same, there is the possibility of violent activity.

I'm sorry, but i feel your guest has it ALL WRONG.

thank you.

I have a problem with this idea of 'pleasure' being 'an essential human right.' Is each young woman who goes out with a throng of other young women, drinking themselves into a stupor, really operating on a principle of individual pleasure? Why not question the very forms of 'pleasure' that this culture avails to young women?

How about getting rid of religious fundamentalism so young girl at 17 doesn't get raped and feels like she is soiled goods and has to marry that man b/c she is damaged goods. She is never regarded as good enough b/c she isn't a virgin and is seen as the injured pigeon.

That was my story, I got out of that mindset and way of thinking but so many of my Christian friends are like that. It is sick and not for me.

No one should ever be made to feel that they are used goods b/c they were raped and not good enough to be respected or in a relationship.

Okay, I confess: I'm not as with it as I thought. When did "queer" become an acceptable term, and what exactly does it mean? Is it synonymous with "gay"?

I am very glad for this segment. Especially as a woman that has been sexually assaulted and harassed.
Thank you.

Also, I am sickened by some of these comments. O from Forest Hills.....Yes a woman can say no at any time, and that is her right. Have some respect and self control, we are not dogs. And Neil, what are you talking about? They are saying men should be respectful and not rapists, how does that make a man gay? You need to rethink what is means to be a man.

Right on! The Paglia-esq idea that somehow women bring rape on themselves is disgusting. If your mother or sister or daughter drinks to excess, are you ok with that argument?

Exactly on the pleasure argument! I couldn't get to the website fast enough to say this, but I think a quote from French urban theorist Henri Lefebvre actually sums it up nicely (from an essay called Right to the City) "The human being has the need to accumulate energies and to spend them, even to waste them in play...To these anthropological needs which are socially elaborated can be added...the need for creative activity, for the oeuvre, of the need for information, symbolism, the imaginary and play...through these specified needs lives and survives a fundamental desire of which play, sexuality, physical activities...can more or less overcome the fragmentary division of tasks."

Latoya's experience is not uncommon...I know I was sexually assaulted my freshman year in college w/ an acquaintance and was not able to find any help because I was not entered vaginally.....though I was pinned down, stripped and ended up covered in semen. I didn't even know what to call what had happened to me. The reactions of my friends led me to just shut up.....my roommate tried to convince me that I had wanted it and just felt guilty. The guy's roommate (a friend) laughed about it. I spoke w/ an angry counselor but her anger was clearly not about my experience.
I ended up dropping out of college. Years later, I was able to deal with it, but it affected me....it still makes me sick to hear about others going through this.

sounds like some crap to me. No one should be out drinking and behaving irresponsibly, male or female. A woman might get raped, a man might get mugged and robbed. No one deserves to be assaulted, but you still have to place responsibility on the individual to not put themselves in compromising positions.

I think this is a wonderful topic to be discussing so thank you very much!

I want to point out that NYC has a wonderful service available on Saturday nights called RightRides. It provides transportation home to women, transgender and gender queer people between 12 and 3am. Just call (718) 964-7781 for a ride home. Their website is www.rightrides.org.

This is a very important topic for women. When I was 16 I was assaulted but technically not raped. it was after a party with someone I met there. I was sodomized, he forced me, tried to go further but was unable as he had already....

I told only friends who did not believe me. it was many years of shame and difficult sexual experience. one strange and horrible effect was that I felt additional shame since it was after a party, there was alcohol, I knew him (only briefly). one of the most awful and shameful things for me to "admit" was that, since there was no penetration- "I could not even be raped right." I was therefore even dirtier, and was not "truly" assaulted.

I have been extraordinarily luck to find men in my adult life who were loving and I have a wonderful sexual life. but all my early experiences were just terrible. I will never have a memory of a beautiful sexual beginning, only of shame and fear. luckily I have overcome this and am sensual and proud of it.

Hey Tony, following your logic, if a man cat calls me and I push him in fromt of an oncoming truck, then it was his fault, right?

Rape is in the mind and hands (no pun intended) of the raper not the raped. I don't care if someone strips and comes on to another, if it gets really heated and the "other" is told to stop touching that might start, then the touching has to stop. Stop and walk away, man.

This is so important! As a survivor of incest as child, how we learn to trust, and when will we get the message that sex is OK? All the messages we get as females are that we need to stay home and not experiment or drink or want sex...how do we enjoy and not get punshed?
We are taught that somehow although the "rapist" is bad we still are somewhat responsible...the homeowner is somewhat responsible for the robber who enters the home?

Jacyln just mentioned something key here, we need to reconfigure how rape is seen, as sexual assault is so common! Ask them about the statistics surrounding this crime- it's astounding how many women are survivors of sexual crimes. I think if we all knew that we could perhaps get so outraged we could do something.

There may be a danger of in talking about "not rape" when discussing sexual assault. I feel like this may be tilting towards blaming the "victim." As a former college rape crisis counselor I feel like we discussed empowerment with our classmates. And we also changed the language surrounding rape, such as calling the person assaulted the survivor, not the victim.

Yeah Tony but the one thing has nothing to do with the other. Just because you're drunk doesn't mean you if you get mugged it's okay.

What do they say about a woman who is making out with the guy and they get to the point where they are both naked and she all of a sudden says no.

True no means no, but she can't keep doing that to that guy either. Actions have to match words. Can't be a tease and say okay let's do it and then oh no I changed my mind.

In the vision that Ms. Friedman and Peterson have of male sexuality and attitudes toward women, all men would be metrosexual and even gay. Instead of learning the rules of dealing with men, so they want to turn men into eunuchs.

#1 hjs--the most recent issue of Scientific American Mind has an interesting piece on that: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=why-do-men-buy-sex

If I go out and drink and get mugged, while the mugger should absolutely be punished, it was pretty stupid of me to start with. Right?

should prostitution be legal everywhere?