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To Peter from Sunset Park and others who cry anti-Semitism to prevent criticism of Israel:
Anti-semitism is another big myth created by those that rely on the ignorance of people about the Jews. The fact is, that even the Arabs are Semitic, which of course makes the Palestinian Semitic as well. The inhabitants of Ethiopia and Erithre are also Semitic. But the Ber-bers are not Semitic, neither a large part of the Egyptian population.
So, Please, stop with the anti-Semitic excuse to prevent anyone from criticizing the Nazis governing Israel now.

I fail to see this last attack on Gaza as a "war". The number of casualties in Gaza, over 1300 dead, a third of these children, and more than 5000 wounded, seems more like a massacre, especially when the attacking side had 10 soldiers and 3 civilians dead.
Gaza has been under occupation for many years, why don't their rockets count as self-defense? In 2006, after being elected by their people, Hamas attempted contacting the West and Israel, but the EU, the US and of course Israel decided not to engaged the group. It was better to ignore it in order to keep on fighting a war that by military power and brutality alone Israel would undoubtedly win and which would make a good excuse to keep on moving into the territory and eventually take over it totally.
The fact that Israel used phosphorous and tested DIME bombs on the population of Gaza stripped the Israeli rulers of any moral ground to fight what they wrongly but conveniently classify as terrorism. The Israeli rulers show to be not different from the Nazis or Sadam Hussein, and I do hope they are punished by international law. The pictures emerging from Gaza are not different from those of the concentration camps after the Nazis were defeated.
Israel is a powerful country with one of the most powerful armies in the world and which develops weapons not other countries have. Its existence is not in danger any more. On the other hand, the aftermath of its last incursion into Palestinian territory demonstrates that it is the Palestinian population's existence that is in danger.

Mike McKenzie, a Jew born in Brooklyn, now living in England, wrote this great, revealing, eye-opening book, " If I'm Not For Myself", which really explains the conflict very well. It basically points out that when it comes to the issue of Israel, that even the liberal, progressive Jews, lock step and blindly throw their support to Israeli, ignoring the injustice that has been and is being perpetrated upon the Palest people!

PG

Thank you for your efforts to keep us informed. The Gaza plight is horrendous for all involved but most coverage doesn't seem to be accurate or very deep. I encourage people to log on to the sderot Media Center; www.sderotmedia.com
and
http://www.MidEastTruth.com For example who has reported this?
Israel shells near UN school, killing at least 30
By Ibrahim Barzak and Steve Weizman
The Associated Press
January 6, 2009

...
The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. Residents confirmed the account, saying militants were seen staging attacks from the area.

In a statement, the Israeli army said an initial investigation found that "mortar shells were fired from within the school at IDF soldiers. The force responded with mortars at the source of fire. The Hamas cynically uses civilians as human shields."

The army said two Hamas militants — Imad Abu Askar and Hasan Abu Askar — were among the dead.

Two neighborhood residents confirmed the Israeli account, saying a group of militants fired mortars from a street near the school, then fled into a crowd of people in the streets. Israel then opened fire.

The residents, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared for their safety, said the Abu Askar brothers were known low-level Hamas militants. http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8834

Leslie Gordon

Peter you mentioned the harboring of terrorists by the U.N. going back to 1967. I guess there were terrorists aboard the USS Liberty, when Israel decided to attack that ship in 1967 and kill 37 U.S. sailors.

Bob,

Shame on the UN for harboring terrorists in a school and for allowing yet another UN building be used to fire upon Jews. Stretching back to 1967, the UN has a long history of allowing its buildings and vehicles to be used in acts of terror. So sad.

There were no rockets fired from that school. Israel has a history of coducting attacks on U.N. facilities. You may have forgotten during Israel's last attack on Lebanon the incident regarding a U.N. observaion post. Here was a building painted in white, and with large U.N. letters painted in blue all over it, and the IDF forces still bombed it. Oh by the way, the U.N. again gave the IDF the coordinates of that totally exposed post, but that still didn't matter.

Bob and Peter,

I think you are both speaking past one another.

I honestly believe (and perhaps naively - or worse, super-rationally) that the only way this will be resolved is if the Bobs and the Peters of the world can stop the blame game and figure out how to make a workable peace for both sides.

If you were Israeli or Palestinian, you wouldn't necessarily be acting rationally after all these decades of conflict. There are plenty of scientific studies to back that up.

The guest was, I believe, right in saying that you have to move past who's "right" and who's "wrong" because both groups fit that bill, and neither group seems willing to acknowledge the harm they've done to the other.

We can't afford to adjudicate "rightness" when we should be planning for both groups to be able to co-exist.

Regarding the incident of 40 Palestinians being killed by the IDF at a UN school. The UN gave the IDF the coordinates of that school, but that didn't matter, because they still open fired on the school.

#54,

we should amend that to "it takes very little to inflame any group." They need not be religious. White southern lynch mobs were not about religion, but ostensibly about race, irrational as that sounds now.

Having said that, I thought the speaker invited on the program was good - someone who is looking for a workable solution for both sides. It's not going to be easy. I am relieved that he is avoiding the argument of who's right, because both sides can fairly claim they're right. The critical part is: where do we go from here so that the two groups can live in peace in that "holy" land?

It takes very little to enflame any religious group.
Catholics protested the movie Dogma.
Jews protested the movie The Passion of Christ.
Christians Protested Brokeback Mountain.
Less violence by comparison, but violence all the same.
The Danish cartoons…. An editor decided to poke fun at something that another religion saw as heresy (depicting the prophet) Christians and Jews used to feel the same way (You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me)

If and only if Hamas (or the Palestinians since we’re using both interchangeably here) stops firing rockets aimed at Israelis (who happen to have children) and sign a peace agreement, then Israel will have to stop dropping bombs and firing tanks at Hamas and the Palestinians (who also happen to have children) and stop blockades, allow supplies and humanitarian aid in, allow Palestinians to cross the boarders to visit relatives, allow the outside press to enter, allow the people of Gaza to live independent of Israeli rule, and prevent Israeli citizens from further encroaching into the newly defined Palestinian lands. I fear that giving up victimhood and accepting a two state solution will prove the hardest step of all for Israelis.

It takes very little to enflame the Arab Street.
Remember the Danish cartoons?

The world should not be held hostage to the endless "rage" of the Arab street.

It's about time we started seeing something positive from the Arab "street" & the enflamed "Muslims" of the world.

And I say that as an ex-Muslim Arab.

Just read Daniel Levy's excellent 5 points to Israeli-Gaza ceasefire. It should be easier to find on your website (I had to go the the New American Foundation site to read it). Hope the Obama team can find it.
Hard to find a smidgen of news about the Israeli blockade (seige) of Gaza ever since the "pull out" not to mention the Israeli violations of the cease fire (mentioned by Mark Perry on the News Hour 1/5/09). These provocations contributed to the rocket attacks but the massive Israeli retaliation only enrages the Palestinans and the world.

MY Israeli friend writes: "After years (dare I say decades) of dishonest, biased and misleading reports about Israel in the world press, they have lost credibility &sympathy in Israel. Why should we let the press in - so that they can bias the media against us, create greater international pressure for a premature cease-fire which just endangers the life of all of us here in Israel and innocent civilians?
The press is the boy who cried wolf, and we learned our lesson over & over again, most recently in Lebanon in 06.

To understand the media on Israel go to:
1. www.camera.org
2. www.honestreporting.com

Just on Gaza alone, their is so much manipulation &unlike the media smearing or hyping Paris Hilton, how they report on the Middle East affects life & death.

Peter,
If Hamas stops firing rockets, all of what would stop? The current invasion? Any and all opposition against a two state solution? Hurt feelings over the partitioning of the land? Palestinians wanting a capitol in Jerusalem? Israeli settlement expansions? Israeli fears of the country of Israel loosing it’s majority Jewish population? The subjugation of Muslims within Israel’s borders? The United States interest in the area? The Muslim resentment of Jews?
Hamas ceasing rocket attacks stops this conflict, but does nothing towards having a peaceable solution for the region.

Samir,
This article was put forth by Peter. It was supposed to be the proof supporting his rhetoric. I make no claims to it or support from it. Simply reading the article showed how erroneous Peter’s implications were. (The implication that Hamas was firing rockets at Israeli citizens across the borders from a school using its children as a shield. The truth of the matter was that Hamas fired a mortar at invading Israeli forces within Gaza in a school full of mostly adults.) When one party fires at the forces of another party, especially within its borders it is referred to as a little something I like to call war. Rhetoric like his, and to an extent yours, does nothing but fan the flames.
I agree with you on Hamas’ media manipulations. If only Israel would allow Western reporters into Gaza’s borders to report what’s really happening. Guess both sides have something to hide and spin to produce. Demand Israel allow western (non Middle Eastern regardless of religion) reporters into Gaza.

As my Israeli Jewish friend put it:

"Israel will stop it's defense operation, when the Arab/Muslim world +/or the "international community" - the UN, EU, stops the terrorists.

Until then, Israel will stop the terrorists."

Israel was attacked by terrorists hiding in a school. Israel was in Gaza to stop the same terrorists from firing rockets.

If Hamas stopped firing rockets, all of this would stop. Word.

Upon actually reading the article, I see mortar rounds were being fired at Israeli troops in Gaza, not rockets at Israeli citizens across the border. I think shooting at soldiers in your own territory is called war. "Initial checks ... show that from inside the school mortars were fired at Israeli forces," a spokesman said. "In response, the forces fired a number of mortar rounds into the area."
Hundreds of citizens (and some Hamas militants with short range mortars) were in the school seeking refuge. 30-55 are now dead. It goes on… The Israel Defense Forces had no comment on the incident, but in the past has accused militants of using schools, mosques and residential neighborhoods to store weapons or launch attacks. Earlier Tuesday, Palestinian medical officials reported that 10 civilians were killed when a shell fired by an Israeli ship hit their house on the Gaza shore. Officials in Gaza said at least 20 people were killed in shelling up and down the strip on Tuesday. Only two of the dead could could be immediately confirmed as militants.

I understand using fiery rhetoric, but rhetoric steeped in fact is more effective.

I bring up the UN because it is a travesty of justice and a mess. The UN should be forgotten and disbanned.

I bring up Iran and the issue of gay rights and genocide as simply two examples of how dangerous the country is right now.

The elected president of Iran denies that gays exist and says openly at the UN that Israel should be exterminated.

If the Palestinians had leaders whose philosophy was based on building a productive society rather destruction we might be in a better place.
Arafat was once asked how he envisioned the structure of a Palestinian state, his response was "I am a freedom fighter." He had no answer. I'd say that's a problem.

Voter,

By UN count, there are probably tens of millions of refugees in the world. So, if your question is, "Should the UN be allowed to take control of large swaths of the United States and invite tens of millions of immigrants to live here"?, I vote no. The UN is usually the problem in most conflicts, not the answer.

In Lebanon, the UN has allowed an independent army to stockpile tens of thousands of weapons from Iran - do you really want Iran controlling Manhattan? I don't.

Name a single other country that is not expected to respond after having 10,000 rockets shot at it - you can't.

Elaine , Do you feel the people of Gaza should only be allowed to survive through the benevolence of Israel? Is your form of democracy, democracy only one’s neighbors agree is best for you? Hamas is far from innocent; however, your post basically says the people of Gaza should only be allowed to live at the mercy of Israel. (and be grateful Israel allows them that much) If that is how you feel, fine. But don’t try to make it look like anything more than it is.

Samir , you say Israeli bombings, tank firings, and bullets, are all aimed precisely at Hamas and collateral damage is a result of cowardice on the part of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields. Please then, explain the bombing of United Nation’s refugee sites. Is Hamas firing rockets from them as well? You mention Israel blindly lobbing rockets into Gaza as Hamas does into Israel isn’t an option; is that because Israel’s military capability leads to a higher kill rate? Let’s face it, this is about more than rockets… Hamas isn’t firing rockets for fun. Silencing Hamas rockets doesn’t get anyone any closer to a peaceable solution.
Peter (#28), you are correct, this is more or less the root of the problem. What if the UN said we needed a DMZ where all nations could come together and work out their issues, a place where the refugees of the world would be safe from genocide and tyranny. The perfect place? Manhattan. The UN and the population mix as well as its ability to support the population density would make Manhattan the perfect solution. Would you be upset?

Putting the onus on Israel that in the 6 month lull in rocket fire from Gaza, Israel should have taken upon itself the risk to open the borders is absurd. What has Hamas shown in good faith toward Israel since Israel's exit from Gaza? The first thing they did was burn the intact greenhouses that Israel had kindly left for them. Instead, Hamas set up rocket launchers. That 6 month lull was used to build up their weapons storage.

If someone says they want to murder you & has a knife in their hand & attacks you, and you have a knife and a gun, what are you going to use to protect yourself? The knife for proportionality?

It's tragic that the Palestinians continue to fail to recognize that their choices in government only brings them grief. They continue to blame Israel rather than take responsibility for the terrorist group they have elected to represent them.

Peter. I agree with you. Israel is not the only one to blame. It was also sealed by Egypt - Egypt is a repressive, brutal dictatorship that is supported with YOUR and MY tax dollars at a tune of $3B a year for at leat the past 20 years. They have created a right wing religious opposition and they are ALSO afraid of having Hamas succeed in Gaza because that will undermine their dictatorship and provide the religious group in Egypt with a weapon to showcase Gaza of what they can do in Egypt.
I am not anti-semitic and I think that Israelis are also being held hostage - Not by the Palestinians - but by the monied elite and corrupt politicians in Israel, Middle East and the US. There is a powerful group of people who profit handsomely by maintaining the status quo since US and European taxpayers waste at least $7-10B a year in this bottomless pit. This money provides nice profits for the right people. and keeps them in power

The problem of Israel and the Palestinians started with Palestinians and other Arabs refusing to respect the UN creation of Israel and responding with violence and terror.

Hamas has as much responsibility as the Israeli in finding a peaceful resolution to this problem - but you once again continue to ignore that Gaza is basically a big prison or ghetto for over 1.5 million people.

They are under the overwhelming mercy and control of Israel for basic things such as water and Israel has been slowly starving them as collective punishment for electing Hamas which was done democratically and in retaliation for Fatah's corruption. To think that even produce that Palestinians were producing for export in order to build a small economy was held up at the border intentionally by Israel until it would rot in order to prevent Palestinians from gaining ANY self sufficiency under Hamas. You only talk about the missles (which I oppose). but you choose to ignore the conditions and humiliation under which Palestinians live on a daily basis.

How would you like if Brooklyn were sealed off and it's access to food, water and electricity were strictly controlled and reduced to a minimum preventing you from feeding your family? Would you react with submissiveness and beg your jailers for handouts?

An interesting an intelligent segment, but way too short. Should have deferred that silly 'Style' thing.

The problem of Israel and the Palestinians started with Israel's founding and continues. If it is ever to be solved it will take people who can see both sides of the issues, something most of the partisans refuse to do.

Let me correct you on an imoprtant point. Gaza was sealed by Egypt and Israel. Egypt is as scared of Palestinian terror as Israelis are. I am confused as to why you only blame Israel?

This is not a conflict of Israel's making. This fighting has a clear cause (Hamas missile attacks) and effect (Israeli defensive operations against the missile launchers and terrorist leaders). For seven years the international community has ignored Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel (more than 3,000 attacks from Gaza alone since 2001).

It is time for the international community (especially those hiding behind cynical human rights rhetoric) to reject moral equivalence and to distinguish between the arsonists and the firefighters.

The absurd call for a "proportionate Israeli response" would have Israel randomly launch a missile into Palestinian population centres for every rocket fired at Israeli towns and cities like Sderot and Ashkelon. Like all morally-anchored countries, that is a posture Israel could never contemplate.

Unlike Hamas, whose missiles are purposefully and intentionally fired into Israeli population centres with the explicit aim of killing and maiming civilians, Israel's response is directed solely at Hamas military facilities and firing locations; with great care being taken to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible.

Unfortunately, Hamas has placed its missile batteries and depots in the midst of Palestinian towns, deliberately putting Palestinian families in the line of fire and cynically turning them into human shields.

The main difference is that Gaza was under Israeli occupation and since 2006 it has been sealed by Israel.
Hamas was originally created as a religious non-violent organization and gradually became violent as Israel's abuses increased.

The violence against Israel is a result of abuses from Israel and it's unwillingness to abide by its responsibilities to protect and provide basic services and the means for people it occupies and controls to make a living

The problem with Levy's statement is that 1) Hamas is not interested in ending the “occupation,” meaning settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The occupation in Gaza was ended, and its termination only encouraged Hamas’ delusion that it is on the winning side of history. Levy certainly understands enough about these matters to know that when Hamas talks about occupation, it means the state of Israel. 2) Hamas is not a Palestinian nationalist group — it has always condemned and assailed the two-state solution, Palestinian statehood, and negotiations that have as their premise Israel’s right to exist. 3) Where have all these “heavy hints” from Hamas about the 1967 borders come from? I recall one extremely vague muttering from Khaled Mashaal a while back that only a very desperate person would interpret as an endorsement of the 1967 borders. Then again, Levy thinks that the famous “Three No’s” at Khartoum in 1967 were an opening ploy for negotiations, so he appears to be easily seduced.

Brian,

Can you ask your guest whether he thinks that a strong/competent peace keeping force can be funded with the $7-10 billion dollars a year being spent by the US and European taxpayers to continously prop up the never ending violence and humanitarian assistance?
Currently the US taxpayer spends $3B a year supporting a brutal undemocratic dictatorship in Egyp; #3B in military aide to Israel and at least #1B in humanitarian aide. Add to that at least $1B on the part of the Europeans to prevent the Palestinians from starving to death.

Title of a post at the Daily Kos:

Why Do I Find Israeli Troop Deaths Satisfying?

They’re not anti-war, they’re just for the other side.

The goal and objective of the Israeli government and the Bush administration has been to undermine ANY Palestinian govt. This is why they have been carrying out the embargo and siege of Gaza since Hamas won the elections pushed by the SAME Israeli and Bush administrations. They don't want them to be successful. This allows Israel to make excuses that it doesn't have anyone to negotiate and to go on a public relations blitz blaming Hamas for the horrible humanitarian crisis in Gaza that has been going on for years - not just in the last 9 days.
Israel and Bush now want to deal with Fatah - but before Hamas won the democratic elections they spent over 4 years complaining that they could not negotiate with Fatah because they were corrupt and inept. Never mind that the last 2 Israeli prime ministers have been under constant investigation because they are corrupt!

For the record Hamas launching rockets at Israelis is wrong.

What my point is Israel's response is completely out of proportion.

It’s worth asking what is the difference between Israel’s military response to Hamas and America’s military response to the Taliban. If the differences are not significant or germane, it’s hard to see how liberals can defend and support our actions in Afghanistan while condemning the actions of Israel.

In both cases, there is a dramatic “disproportion” in military technology, in the level of social-political advancement, and in the number of casualties. Yet the purpose of America’s and Israel’s responses is not to work some abstract calculus of proportionate justice, but to achieve military and security aims, and in any case these “disproportions” did not lead all (or even most) liberals to oppose the American action in Afghanistan. So why do they support the one and oppose the other?

Hamas cynically uses human shields, children, hospitals & mosques and even private homes to store and manufacture weapons caches that include 12,000 missiles.

Then they fake photos & stage Pallywood scenes of crying women.

Sad.

Time for Palestinians to stop hiding weapons and terrorists in schools.

Just in: 40+ Dead after Israel attacks U.N. Gaza school housing refugees.

Does the world even care anymore? The entire U.S. political spectrum is completely bankrupt.

Time to end this monstrosity.

Janine. I remember the Israeli papers publishing pictures of Fatah troops hauling cow parts onto the strees of Janine so that it would smell like rotting bodies.

... get a copy of the paper/report written by the UN in which they conclude that Janine was a myth. The UN actually got it right, once.

The Jenine myth.

Even Hamas and Fatah don't play the Jenine myth card anymore. No one buys it.

Peter From Sunset Park you are dead wrong when it comes to Israel killing civilians.

research: Israeli occupation army in Jenine involved a massacre.

There was a massive cover up of the Jenine massacre.

Jeff:

1. The comparison to American Indians is a good one, except for one thing. Israel was created by the UN and was partially in response to British colonization. Sometimes, cleaning up a mess is messy in itself.

2. Anti-Semitism is when you hold Jews to a different standard then others. Israel has the very best record in the world towards civilian losses and you can't deny it, so you go into distraction.

Israeli occupation army in Jenine involved a massacre.

Israel is the clear and savage aggressor here. It's been a thorn in the side of world politics, especially the Middle East since it was first created by the European and U.S. powers sixty years ago.
The idea that Israel should exist as a homeland for Jews by referring to myths in a book is not only absurd but has proven to be tragic for all around, including Jews. How many Jews in this country are emigrating to Israel if that's what it's supposed to serve as? If anything Israelis are coming here to live in the U.S. How many homelands can one group of people claim?
By the way, when is this country going to give itself over back to the Amerinds who were inhabiting it for a much longer time than Jews were inhabiting Palestine?

We will do our best to keep up with your comments, and in turn, we ask that each of you please stay on topic, refrain from attacks on others who post and please, follow our guidelines.

We appreciate each of your contributions to the show.

The ratio doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that no country has a better ratio then Israel. The UN lists something like 50 armed conflicts going on right now across the globe. I challenge anyone to find a country that has a better enemy to civilian kill ratio then Israel.

Of course, no one ever answers this question because the only answer is - Israel is the best.

I rather enjoy all the folks who respond by saying, "Yeah, but Israel kills children."

What it comes down to is that people like hjs simply don't feel that Jews have the right to self defense. Of course, this is anti-Semitism. Holding one group of people, Jews, to a different standard then everyone else is clear anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, folks like hjs confuse liberal ideas with anti-Semitism.

i think the kill ratio is 5:1. where does the 50:1 number come from

Hamas must stop.

This can not continue.

Hamas and the Palestinians are losing credibility with every minute.

Hamas has been firing rockets at Israel for 8 years. Both sides agree that it has been more then 10,000 rockets. There is a simple solution. When Hamas stops, so will Israel.

I am not sure why you blame Israel for Hamas' insistence on using Palestinian children as human shields. Perhaps Palestinian terrorists should stop using their own civilians as bullet stoppers.

It seems pretty clear that everybody knows what a final Israeli/Palestinian agreement will look like.

Please ask Mr. Levy:

Why don’t Israel and Fatah simply enter into negotiations, get the final deal in writing, and then have both sides put it up for a vote during a general election?

Of course, Hamas would be excluded from this final agreement.

Isreal must stop.

This can not continue.

Isreal is losing credibility with every minute.

I guess Obama picks and choses who he would negoiate with by supporting Isreal. Hamas is not on the list of countries he would talk with just kill.

There is something very wrong with a 50 to 1 kill ratio.

Isreal is killing too many civilians.