wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

In response to the caller who suggested that drivers involved in collisions while on a cell phone did not consider the following:

A. Just about everything in an auto policy (except for the clauses regarding incidents with uninsured and under-insured motorists) is for the protection of the OTHER driver, the one presumably not at fault. So, eliminating coverage would most often 'punish' the the non-culpable driver.
B. If there was another person in the vehicle, it might be difficult to prove that it was the passenger who was using the cell phone at the time of the incident.

I find it incomprehensible that anyone can defend driving while texting or even talking on cells. I live and work in downtown Brooklyn and almost every day some texter/talker bumps into me (or I must take evasive action) while WALKING! In other words, people can't see what's in front while accomplishing something that doesn't require conscious thought. Driving is much more brain intensive.

I agree with a law-based solution because it can't hurt and any life saved is a plus. Another point is that the cellphone privilege seems to pervade all forms of life from meetings to parent/teacher conferences to performances, movies, etc., and as such is degrading modern life. What did we ever do without instant telephonic gratification?

I hate riding with someone who is "looking at me" while driving but, it is very different from texting/talking on the cell while driving.

We need less government intrusion into our lives, not more. The Obama-ites believe that every form of personal behavior must be regulated and controlled. Let us live free -- or die.

The studies existed while the hands-free laws were being considered, but the corporations successfully obfuscated and lied about those studies.

Just revealed is the BushCo would not release the study about texting and driving dangers.

It was known **years ago.** Look it up.

The hands-free laws were a good idea at the time. But know we have a wealth of research that has shown clearly and unambiguously that it is the not the occupation of one's hands and is instead the occupation of one's mind that makes a difference. Regardless of people's lifestyle preferences or their own proprietary "common sense," we should go with what the research makes unambiguous.

On the other hand, I do not know that the research has controlled for driver's experience level. A stay at home mother with three kids can multi-task but better than the first time mother of new born. Experienced teachers multi-task all the time. It could be that taxicab drivers, with so much more experience driving -- and so much more experience driving these particular roads -- are not so impacted by talking on the phone as more typical or inexperienced drivers.

Therefore, I would support a ban and all cell phone use by drivers, unless and until there has been sufficient replicated research that shows that cabbies in particular are not so impacted.

You know, policy based on facts and research, rather than truthiness.

The scary thing for me is that, at least in some vehicles, I could tell by posture or the shape of the cell phone at the driver's ear that this was a car to try to stay away from.

With the hands free use, very hard to tell, except by the driver slowing down or speeding up, slowing down, speeding up....

Texting? The head bent at a strange angle for driving for an extended period of time.

Re: distractions: I was actually sideswiped on a quiet side street here in NJ. My car had stalled out and I managed to get up close to the curb, but flashers weren't on as the electrical system was down.

Some humongous SUV, with a driver on his cell phone, slid along the side of my car, from rear fender to rear door on the driver's side.

When he noticed what he'd done he didn't stop at the stop sign, just took off. I got like two letters on the license and could not recognize the make of the SUV.

Plumb outta luck on that scrape and run.

If banning hands-free communication is a good idea, then we should take the idea one step further. There should be a barrier between the driver and all other passengers so that the driver can't be distracted by talking to them. If you can't multitask at that level you should be driving to begin with, but maybe that's the problem, if you can't walk and chew gum, don't try talking while driving.

I see people on their cell phones all the time. Often they are randomly speeding up and slowing down and are clearly not paying attention to the task. I regularly drive the Thruway and yesterday passed someone driving about between about 55 and 60 mph in the middle lane and occasionally drifting out of his lane with traffic passing him in both slow and fast lanes. I see that ALL the time! And it's illegal in NY.
Texting should be illegal if it isn't already. Even if it's hard to enforce, I believe there have been cases that have been able to prove that phone use and/or texting were the causes of accidents. Aren't there time stamps on calls?

Stop the car to make the call...and I love that WNYC won't take calls from a moving vehicle. Keep it up, hands-free as well.

Mimi Brauch

For all of those people who insist they can talk and drive at the same time safely, here is the solution: treat texting and talking like you would drunk driving. If you drive perfectly while talking, great. But if you rear end someone because you are impaired by texting, then add a $3000 fine and you lose your license for a year- just like impaired drunk driving.

Here's an idea for a show.

It seems like there are folks out there who think that they are especially skilled and able to drive very well while talking on the phone. Put them in a car with a DMV tester and have them call in to the show to discuss abortion or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or single-payer healthcare -- your choice. Then see how they do on the driver's exam.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/health/13well.html

From article, which may be the one the woman caller remembered:

...a large body of research now shows that a hands-free phone poses no less danger than a hand-held one — that the problem is not your hands but your brain.

“It’s not that your hands aren’t on the wheel,” said David Strayer, director of the Applied Cognition Laboratory at the University of Utah and a leading researcher on cellphone safety. “It’s that your mind is not on the road.”

Now Dr. Strayer’s research has gained a potent ally. On Monday, the National Safety Council, the nonprofit advocacy group that has pushed for seat belt laws and drunken driving awareness, called for an all-out ban on using cellphones while driving.
....
Laboratory experiments using simulators, real-world road studies and accident statistics all tell the same story: drivers talking on a cellphone are four times as likely to have an accident as drivers who are not. That’s the same level of risk posed by a driver who is legally drunk.
....
It may be that talking on the phone generates mental images that conflict with the spatial processing needed for safe driving. Eye-tracking studies show that while drivers continually look side to side, cellphone users tend to stare straight ahead.

They may also be distracted to the point that their engaged brains no longer process much of the information that falls on their retinas, which leads to slower reaction times and other driving problems.

I am sure that most passengers and cabbies themselves do not know that they are not supposed to be on the phone. I have been assured by many cabbies that they are permitted if they are using a handsfree device. If the ban was publicized, passengers would be more likely to ask the driver to get off the phone and would have a way to enforce their position - by reporting the cabbie. The cabbie wouldn't try that incorrect defense. This would be a big help in light of the lack of enforcement highlighted int he NYT article.

So if you're not allowed to talk on the phone and drive, can you talk to other people in the car while driving? How is that any less of a distraction?

Something to read:
www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/technology/21distracted.html

Scott
did u take down the cab number and report him to the TLC? no that's why "cab drivers able to so blatantly disregard the law"

You can't determine which person in the car was using a phone (e.g. if I'm driving and my kid is in the back seat talking on the phone). Electronic tracking or detection/disabling of mobile phones is misguided and ineffective.

gregb -- that's why they callem driveway and not highway moments

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080531084958.htm

From article:

In two different experiments, associate professor of psychology Dr. Amit Almor found that planning to speak and speaking put far more demands on the brain’s resources than listening.

“We measured their attention level and found that subjects were four times more distracted while preparing to speak or speaking than when they were listening,” said Almor of the 47 people who participated in the experiment. “People can tune in or out as needed when listening.”
....
Almor found that participants could complete the visual task in front of them more easily when the projected voice also was in front. This effect, while not so strong as the difference between preparing to speak or speaking and listening, suggests that simultaneously performing a language task and a visual task is easier when the tasks are in the same space physically and cognitively.

I'm pretty sure findings like this have been covered on WNYC, either on Brian's show or Leonard's. Science Friday?

are you aware that there is no way to register a complaint about unsafe driving by a cabdriver without going in person-- when i tried to report an incident i called both 911 and 311-- and was told i could make an appointment to go downtown in 6 weeks, otherwise they would take no action!

Transportation funds are for everyone's
benefit, cell phone and texter abusers
shouldn't make it worse for the rest of us.

If a car is in an accident and it is
established that the driver was phoning or texting while driving his licence should be
automatically suspended for at least a year.

That would be the most efficient discouragement to those who would put the rest of us at risk.

Enforce the present laws, we DO NOT NEED NEW ONES.

How is there even a question about the danger of texting while driving?! I believe you'd need 4 hands and 4 eyes to do both activities efficiently and simultaneously. Please.

No insurance means that the person you injure can only recover what s/he can get from you. You're required to have insurance to protect others, not to protect your assets.

I totally agree with the "insurance doesn't cover you if you're using the phone while rolling," caller. I was typing that very suggestion while he came on the air.

I had the same solution for seat belts.

It will never happen. Legislators are too scared of the effect of one tragic sob story about some otherwise innocent individual.

The way they used to apologize for drunks.

never got in to a cab when they haven't been talking away on there head set!

It does not matter what laws Congress passes they will not be enforced anyway. We have laws on the books now about text messaging and speaking on hand held phones and yet they are completely ignored evert day. Tickets could be given out every minute in my small town but the offenders are by passed.
Unless the present laws are enforced this new "idea" is a farce.

I agree about hands free, but not being allowed to be on a call means then also do not listen to the radio (sorry Brian) and do not talk to anyone in the car.

Difference?

Love the show...

The caller on hands-free cell phone: Just as distracting as holding the cell phone to his ear.

Scientific studies have shown that the distraction is different from eating or quickly pushing a radio for a change of stations. It's different that talking to a passenger, since the passenger has skin in the game of keeping the car safe (unless a screaming baby).

But, talking to a person on a phone means the person on the other end has no idea what is going on around the person driving, and, there's is something about talking on the phone which requires more brain concentration (this is well studied, for years).

Ah, bless this caller about part of brain being used --affects peripheral vision. Not good for safety.

Study after study shows that hands free is not the issue. One-armed people have no higher accident rate than anyone else.

Most driving doesn't require 100% concentration, but you can't predict the moments that do require your full attention.

Two adults in a car converse at a pace that is in tune with the road. Think about you, as a driver, talking to someone else in the car. If traffic gets tight, you will automatically stop talking, even mid-sentence. Your conversation partner knows what's happening, doesn't think twice, and doesn't ask why you have suddenly gone away.

Now think about a phone conversation, hands-free or otherwise. The other party is not in the car, and doesn't see what's going on. When traffic gets tight, polite discourse requires that you handle your conversation partner, to let them know to hang on at best, or at worst to just continue the conversation.

The problem is that you're on a conversation with a party is literally in another place.

I find it just as distracting to listen to a great book on tape on long drives- a great story sucks you into a deep mental world, and away from the road. Once drove past my exit. Public radio comes in a close second- those "driveway moments" can be entrancing.

Hi Brian,

What's your take on the GPS devices having the bluetooth where you talk over your GPS? I am thinking of buying a garmin with bluetooth, so should I avoid buying one then?

My point in suggesting a huge fine above was to create a deterrent. We don't need to have 100% enforcement, just a few well selected examples that are broadcast in the media, say a few people being fined say $1,000 would send a powerful message.

its interesting that this was never an issue when driver used CB radios

Tipping cab drivers less because they are speaking on their phone is silly. Not getting that extra 1 or 3 dollars AFTER THE FACT is so PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE! And as many divorced people and rebellious teenagers will tell you, that gets you no where. And it's not condusive to have them stop using their cells while driving. Just ask, please do not speak on your phone. If more people ask their cab drivers, more will get ear pieces or stop.

Lately, EVERY time I take a taxi, the cabbie is either on the phone or texting, sometimes both. Some use a headset, some don't. On the few occasions I have asked them to not use the phone while driving, I get attitude and usually doesn't stop them.

The law should occur at the "State" level though this is not a Federal Government issue.

here's another distraction...

I was almost hit walking in a crosswalk by the driver of a minivan making a right turn while looking down at her iPod. she was wearing earbuds.

A few points...

I drive 45 minutes each way to work and those cordless handsets are worthless. I get dropped all the time and then I'm fumbling to get the thing going again. I prefer to drive with the phone on my lap with the speakerphone on. Much less distracting.

Also someone really needs to come up with a text to voice for text messages. It's really hard, if not impossible, not to read a message while driving.

You should be NOTHING while driving a car EXCEPT driving the car. Period.

As a runner along our roads I see MANY people driving crazy using phones. It is crazy. A friend last year was broad-sided by a woman in a large SUV, talking on her phone. He was in the hospital for three weeks and then had 3 months of therapy for his injuries. We should have laws similar to drunk driving laws for drivers talking on phones

From my observations in New York, I don't think people are smart enough to walk and text, let alone drive and text.

please don't get any comments from any policemen. they are by far the worst offenders of talking on cell phones. you seldom see one with one growing out of his ear, and in these little towns around me, i cannot be convinced that they are conducting official police business. i could generate some much needed revenue for the town if i could write 'em up.

Here is what it can do...and why it is useful and enforceable. When someone gets in an accident because they were on the phone, the police department or insurance companies can look at phone records to see if the person was on the phone while driving. Since it would be against the law, they would be accountable and would then be responsible for my hospital bills. Also, is this really a "quality of life bill". Then are laws against drinking and driving "quality of life" laws?

Dont agree with the caller who suggests purchasing a in order to use your phone while driving - what if there's an emergency & you need to call 911? you can't make the call unless you can afford it?

just because people could afford such a device doesn't in any way make them more capable of driving while talking.

I can barely walk the streets of New York while speaking on cell phone. I have run into people and walked into traffic. I can't even imagine operating heavy machinery, like a CAR!

Does this mean car-service drivers aren't allowed to talk to their dispatchers? That would make things awfully complicated.

There was a study done by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that says driving while talking on a hands-free phone is still distracting...But can be no more distracting than talking to someone sitting right next to you. Should this be illegal, too? I'm afraid people who drive like jerks are always going to find a way to drive like jerks, regardless of what is or isn't banned.

I agree we should ban texting while driving.

I don't think people should talk on the cellphone while driving, but sometimes it aids driving so it should not be totally outlawed.

Last night I was driving somewhere and my directions were not right. I was able to call home and get step by step driving directions, which was safer than me trying to figure out a route without the help.

That caller is wrong! I can use my brain for more than one thing at a time! I am doing it now! LOL

Yeah - when you're on a bike and somebody starts backing up or crosses an intersection, it's not uncommon to see them in mid-conversation, totally oblivious to a lot going on around them. I think the "no-texting" rule should just be part of a blanket "no cell-phone" rule.

I see alot of police using cell phones while driving. What makes them immune to getting into some kind of vehicle mishap? Aren't they just as distracted?

I have NEVER been in a taxi where the cab driver was NOT talking on a phone - sometimes without handsfree!

I have asked and they ignore me or say they don't understand what I mean. I have certainly been concerned about their quality of driving, verging on dangerous. There certainly doesn't seem to be ANY enforcement.

There is no such thing as an experienced driver when you are talking on a phone. Moreover, having two hands on the wheel means nothing when you aren't paying attention - talking, texting, whatever.

Finally, why are taxi drivers and livery cab drivers able to so blatantly disregard the law? Especially if the law is specific to them.

Several studies have found that driving while on a handheld phone is no more dangerous than driving while using a handsfree headset.

The two are equally dangerous.

But let's face it. How many of us have seen people doing make-up, drinking coffee, turning around to tend to kids, eating meals, using their computers, etc etc etc -- all while driving?

People are distracted by texting while driving, as well as texting while walking. As a solution, I would suggest that we tax texting; it could be call the Thumb Tax.

More than being dangerous I think the cab drivers who are glued to the cellphone are just providing bad customer service. Don't give them a generous tip and eventually they will get the message I would think.

how silly for the feds to put there nose into this. don't they have enough to worry about fixing the bush's messes. NY has this law but it's unenforced. just walk down any avenue in Manhattan and u see tons of lawbreakers, for some reason in some places it's a secondary offence, meaning the police can't stop u even if they wanted to.

Answer:

Munis get practically no $$$ from enforcing state laws

It is a bad idea to even talk on the phone while driving even when one has a hands free device much less texting. I have been in so many near misses where the other driver was on the phone and was not paying attention. Yes, I know, YOU are a better driver than average and off course can drive while talking, my wife also though so before rear ending another vehicle while on the phone. There is so much distractions on the road, we do not need to be texting or even speaking on the cell phone while driving, it is way too distracting! I say withhold the money and place large, I mean huge fines on anyone caught doing so.

I have been a passenger with a person driving and texting...I ws terrified at how long the person had their eyes off the road!

YES ban, driving while texting! Penalize double when the person is involved or causes a accident!

I was in a cab the other day, flying down Ninth Ave, and I saw that my cabbie was holding his cell phone and recording video of the road in front of him. Why would he be doing this? I almost asked him to stop a) because he was NOT hands-free and b) because why do you need to record video of the road? Not worth the risk, buddy!

Quality-of-Life laws are laudable, but who is going to enforce them?

I come close to being hit at least once a week by drivers on phones. How about people who don't clean up after their dogs? How about owners, who do not keep their dogs on leashes?

Who is going to enforce any of these laws? (Secret answer: No one!)

As a general rule I'm not in favor of more government intervention, but we are becoming a society of people with Constant Partial Attention and something needs to be done.

Texting while driving is just a small symptom of a problem that is infecting our society. We risk losing our ability to concentrate on important tasks in the name of constantly being "connected" for fear of missing something.

Yes, ban texting while driving any way possible!

In NJ talking on the cell phone is ILLEGAL ALREADY.

How many tickets are actually issued? In this town, none. Call your local PD and ask why. There is a very real reason.

Are cops exempt from the law against talking on cell phones while driving? I don't know about texting, but at least in Brooklyn we see them on their phones and driving quite frequently. Seems like they're setting a bad example if it really is so dangerous.

There are still many localities where talking on hand-held cell phones and texting while driving are perfectly legal. One of the major negative consequences of these activities is that the drivers don't use turn signals before turning or changing lanes. With one hand on the steering wheel and the other holding the cell phone, the drivers don't have a free hand to activate the turn signal lever, increasing the risk of a collision with other vehicles and with pedestrians.