wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

To comment #155, John from Westchester. In what world is $250,000 middle class. GET A CLUE.

I grew up in Westchester and live in a very expensive neighborhood in Brooklyn and can gaurentee that most people in both those areas do not earn that much money.

Growing up in Westchester, I was incredibly privileged and was considered rich by most of my classmates standards. I know for a fact that my family did not earn $250,000/year. We were very comfortable and endulged in several luxuries (two trips to Europe, an interior decorator, etc.)

Just so you know, country clubs, elite private education and million dollar homes aren't the things of the middle class, they are the things of the wealthy.

I can't believe the lack of awareness not only on the part of the author of the article, but also on the part of some of the callers (especially the first one) concerning who is the "best and the brightest" or the "hardest working and/or smart". These people should calm their rage and take some time to learn about how race, gender and class affect many options in a person's life.

Try telling any person (whether partnered or not) working a job (or two) and raising a family that she/he doesn't work hard. These people need to gain some serious perspective. I'm absolutely livid.

they deserve a lot worse.

I am bothered and bewildered by people like the caller Michael from Park Slope. People like him are deluded by the idea that the wealthiest 1% are where they are because of hardwork, determination and smarts. Such hubris blinds them to the fact that oftentimes the wealthiest people are also the recipients of unearned advantages. Grandfathering, nepotism, legacy admissions, and intergenerational transfers of wealth are just a few "privileges" that come to mind.

As for wealth, sure the "entrepreneurial class" createth but they also taketh away. I'm guessing the caller has never heard the word, "outsourcing."

RCT... I see how miserable you are. But, you are not alone. Look back at your original comment. That teacher's have it easy. Am I hearing a little back tracking now? Teacher's have it easy. A Columbia student... you it must of been easy. You had the pick of the lot! Lucky you. This Ivy League culture bears askance. I am back to my original statement that we are witnessing how the Ivy League MBA system doesn't work... but, now, after RCT's 'teacher's have it easy' chime in with Ed and seeing what his Columbia University background is maybe the Ivy Leagues are failing in their social and cultural responsibilities as large? This is scary.

Ed at 36 and RCT 53 are now going in to teacher bashing. If it was so easy Ed why did you go into law instead? Nice of you to go off topic and proceed to everyone's favorite... let's bash the teachers... scum of the earth that they are. It is their fault that I know how to read and write and add and subtract so that I am literate enough to try to make sense of how our economy has been ruined. Teaching is easy, indeed. Stop it already! Gee, maybe we should all have 2 months off like the Europeans. Gee, Ed, maybe you should have 2 months off a year just to keep your head together. I know I could. And when was the last time you travelled outside of the U.S. to see other countries. I haven't. But, that is what the likes of the neo-cons want. To be parochial, merely literate enough to perform the tasks for their world view... which obviously didn't work... in short to short circuit the democratic process of informed dialogue. Teacher's have it easy! Teachers stay on for years contributing to society in a far greater manner than what we've seen from the sorry likes in the Financial District. Ed, what sort of teacher were you? Did you give a positive influence to those that you taught? Or, did you merely want to contribute to the culture of greed and avarice? Please, stay on topic.

Greed for money and power have proven to be more addictive than crack cocaine. Financial rehab is in order.

You clearly forgot to mention that those scum bags caused the down turn in the econmomy because of their greed we are in this mess. They don't work harder, smarter, or are any more entitled than anyone else. I know Ivy league graduates who can't get jobs let along high paying jobs. They ruined the economy and in the process killed the America dream.

89 Jen from Conn - What a civilized and decent point of view [unique 2].

YOU ARE AWESOME!

Kai -- My M.A., Ph.D. and J.D. are all from Columbia. I still teach part-time. No one is suggesting that college professors are well-paid (or that teachers don't work hard). I can only say that, having been both a college teacher and an attorney, I vastly prefer the quality of life that I had as a teacher, and would probably had remained a teacher, had I not wanted to stay in the NYC area at a time when liberal arts professorships were few and far between. Moreover, the work was alot more interesting. Lawyers and financial people earn more than college teachers because they generate more cash profits, take more financial risks (thanks, John) and work longer and more brutal hours. That's true. I've been there. I made a conscious choice to go for the higher income so as to provide my family with a better quality of life. I know that Brian and others think that this can be done in NYC on little money, but that was not our experience.

John form ny...c'mon dude..that dream died long ago..this is not the time for hyperbole or gloating political self aggrandizement. we are not heading to a new world order and the globalization movement is not done..the fact is the majority of people involved in financial services are honorable, work hard and deserve to be rewarded when their performance warrants it. I think the real gripe that most of us have is that when times are lean those guys need to bite the bullet like the rest of us. Arbitrarily raising taxes for people earning over a particular benchmark is also not the answer. To be effective that level will be around 250,000, which in this area is squarely middle class. The system needs this period to reset, and adjust to the changing landscape. The other major gripe I am hearing is that the attitudes of entitlement need to change. Just because you went to an ivy league school does not mean you are any SMARTER than the guy driving the truck...just that you were provided the right opportunities to succeed ( read the book Outliers by Malcom Gladwell)

I can't believe I saw somebody write that teachers don't work hard. I've seen it all. And to the other person who claims to have been a teacher and it was very easy (short hours, lots of vacation): You must not have been a very good one.

My mother has been an elementary school teacher in this city for thirty years and she works like a dog, basically raising the kids in the Bronx and being abused by the education system and you have the nerve to coast by, doing the minimum, claiming that it's easy? Teachers--those worth anything at all--spend thousands of dollars of their own money on support materials for their classrooms, they work long into the evenings and throughout the weekends, what are you talking about?!

Oh and since you guys will be looking for new jobs now that your incentive has been taken away by higher tax rates. Mayor Bloomberg is looking for volunteers according to the earlier segment on Brian's show. Maybe you should try that kind of a job. You might actualy learn the pleasure of helping someone directly Instead of lying about what the taxes your Swiss bank accounts and tax shelters are paying for. So bye bye ladies and gentleman of the finance class . You don't need Granite counter tops anyway and as far as the erosion of the tax base as a result of the death of banking! Don't worry us poor shnooks don't need your hand outs were busy working to create a better world. Since our taxes seem to be paying for you and your lie I can't really think of how we loose once your gone so stop threatening us with how much we will miss you. The truth is Banks,Bankers and Wall Street have been ripping off most of the world for a Century It only becomes an obvious truth at these particularly critical moments. A moments brought on by Wall street and the banking businesses own self destructive behavior. You guys were all so drunk with bonuses and perks you couldn't even control yourselves enough to keep up the image of the lye that was making you all rich for so long.

j

RTC..you are right, and that is why lawyers and brokers do get paid more....but because of the nature of the financial industry when times are down those people need to accept that they are not entitled to the compensation they had before. The only real secure investment is education and public safety...if you invest in these areas you are guaranteed a return on your investment...

Micheal, Micheal, Michael boy are you and people like you delusional. I'm really laughing here!!! but I'm glad to hear how scared and angry you all are. Welcome to reality. You bankers are back to being just "Grey Flannel Suit Men" from a bad 1950's movie and at least those guys were respectable; You clepto-financiers don't even have any self respect left to fall back on.

The value of your work is a lie; a wet dream you just woke up from. These boom and bust cycles we keep experiencing as a result of you Charletons have become synonymous with Capitalism. How very sad. Go back to Economics school you need to understand how things really work. I'll take a guy on a jackhammer over any of you privileged incompetent losers any day. All those Wharton grads obviously couldn't count; "Wasn't that your essential job function and educational training" look at what happened to you. The poor schnooks had to bail you all out.

Who cares weather you went to a $50,000 a year country clubs? (Harvard Wharton) You mean your daddy had good connection,. like George Jr. Oh he went to Yale I forgot...
The value of the work you do is no better then the restaurant supply delivery man disparaged early on in the piece. People like you obviously still need a bigger humility lesson . High taxes sound like a start.

Since you all you soon to be out of work Bankers are so smart,entrepreneurial and hard working why don't you go back to Harvard and University of Penn and become Doctors or Psychotherapist's then you can help all those lazy people work harder.

They should tax you guys out of existence as far as people in the creative class are concerned. You've all produced nothing but fetishistic bourgeois hedonism and cleptocracy as far as most of America sees it. Saddly for you, your own economics seems to bare this out .

j

Re: monetary compensation's relationship to worth of product:
Do you know the going salary for moms and dads?
Is there a more vital job to a society than the one that tends to a young child?
Racism, sexism and class bias determine salary- not the job.

I have to say that I'm furious to hear the incredible self-centeredness and snobbery on the part of certain Wall Streeters who announce that because they went to B-school at Wharton or Columbia, they DESERVE big bucks. Well, I have a Ph.D. from Columbia and am a junior professor who works all of the time serving the academy. B-School: 3 years and MBA. Grad school: 7 years or so and a Ph.D. Hmmm... Sounds like I spend more than twice as much time developing my specialized skills, and come out with a higher degree, suggesting I'm much more adept than someone with a mere Master's degree. However, I don't pull 6 figures. Hmmmm...

As for being an academic, I have 14 hour days on average and essentially work 7 days a week.

Wall Streeters have Blackberries that they check at all hours? I have one too that I check at all hours because I have to be attentive to the needs of students!

As for the caller from Brooklyn who equated hard work with a large salary, allow me to enlighten listeners: beginning salary for Ph.D. graduates in Assistant Professor positions are usually on the order of $40,000 a year (in the humanities -- which, clearly, don't count as far as most people are concerned). There are NO bonuses involved. That's the remuneration the country believes people who work hard, work independently, and produce hundreds of pages of practical research, deserve. Never mind that Wall Streeters and other people send their children to be educated by and to benefit from the professor's high quality specialized training -- but they don't seem to value that specialized training enough to pay for it. Thanks Wall Street.

All I want is a wage that reflects my achievements, my rigorous specialized learning, and my hard work. Imagine that!

There is one thing though I have not heard today or read about in the comments above: reason and measure when dealing with the actual amounts of those insane salaries and Bonuses...
All those comments and statements keep referring to "High Salaries, High Bonuses" etc...but how much is HIGH? how much is Crazy High? where is the sense of measure and reason?
Regardless of what one may think is the actual value, intelligence and contribution or lack of it in a Finance Executive's job....how is it imanginable that any reward could top more than 2-3-4-5-6 or even 10million in a given year...how much is enough? Where is the limit? not even 10 years ago any of the current amounts of salary/bonuses would have been considered unimabinable...so how could they do the job then with lesser earnings and why couldn't the Banks find qualified execs to do it today for those amounts...if the current ones alledgely leave? Once again can anyone explain to me how much is enough to motivate and satisfy the greed and ambitious of those financial execs?and why?

I meant because "they don't have skills that DO result in higher profits." The point is that cash is not the only reward, and that the fact that you can't earn a higher income should not doom you to a less secure life.

Thanks, sonofvin, and I agree with you that the system requires all components and that many contributions are undervalued. I think that a system that would, for example, provide health benefits, a clean environment and a quality education for all, would offset the inequities in cash income created by the free markets. The point is not to undervalue people as human beings because they do not have skills that, due to their scarcity and ability to produce profits, do not result in the higher cash returns that produce higher salaries.

The sanitation guy is a good example. He works hard, and so do I, but I can (and have) transported my rubbish to the dump, whereas he cannot negotiate a contract. Hence, I receive a higher wage; but we BOTH should have health insurance and he should not be ripped off by anyone, including lawyers.

RCT: IT was indeed a real question. Thank you for your response. I understand that this is how the market currently operates. However, I submit that there are many professions that contribute greatly to the profits of others, but in unappreciated and unrecognized ways. Our economic system, I believe, operates in a similar fashion to biological systems. You can not remove any component from the system and expect that it will continue to operate in a sustaining manner. Thus, all components of the system are important, to the big predators to the microorganisms. So, while I am not suggesting that we are all working as hard as the next person, in general our economic system in unbalanced in the reward system. What happens when your garbage man stops showing up and you have to take your own garbage to the transfer station.

The best and the brightest? Puleeeeeze. Give me a goddamned break. And who am "we"?

boohoo, or whatever your name is:

I do in fact deserve to be paid more than a teacher, for any number of reasons that I would be happy to list for you. Moreover, a highly skilled, experienced teacher with advanced degrees earns about as much as a staff lawer, at least in Westchester County.

My family sees plenty of me. (I don't have much personal time, but that's another story.) Dissing professionals who work long hours as bad parents is merely another stereotype; or are you saying that those poor, working-class folks who are toiling 60 hours per week at unrewarding jobs are neglecting their families? Is it just the money that bothers you? I guess that it is you, not I, who is a greedy materialist.

when wealth circulates it's good for the economy!

People go into finance because finance provides a certain lifestyle. 40 years ago people went into manufacturing because it provided a good lifestyle for someone uneducated and willing to work hard.
But take auto manufacturing for instance. Instead of spending money to make more efficient and better cars, they spent the money lobbying to lower the standards of safety, fuel efficiency, and ecological impact. Imagine if that money was spent on making better cars or shoring up pensions and other legacy obligations.
The financial companies did a similar thing. They lobbied for and got deregulation. What resulted was the current crisis. The difference is the best assembly line worker is now qualified to work at Home Depot because of a limited skill set. The best finance people are qualified to work anywhere in the world in a variety of capitalist ventures. The situations are very similar except for the disparity in market value in the workplace. The days of finance support staff making 6 figures is over however.

@40 - Lisa, wow, what is there to say? I hope things improve for you and your family.

Engineers, teachers, scientists, police and fire fighters and others work VERY hard - we can not do with out these people. The compensation and bonuses for these much needed professions are not equivalent to the excesses of Wall St.
And yes we all did benefit in some ways when Wall St. did well.
Will the talent go elsewhere? Where will they go if the playing field is changed? European banks do not reward the way our banks do - they will have to adjust.

apparently the top 1% believes they are entitled to their wealth because someone told them they would make that much money. it seems to me that the rest of us have had to bear the brunt of the costs of this financial disaster, and no one told us we would have to.

i dont see why it isnt completely obvious that higher taxes on the rich is just them paying their fair share into what we have all been experiencing. why should those at the epicenter of the problem get away unscathed? talk about unfair!

in regards to michaels comments at the start of the show...are you for real dude? hard work and intelligence are important but for those of us in public service these attributes alone do not guarantee financial wealth. I have a degree from a top 20 university and a masters degree as does my wife (2 masters), she is a teacher and I am a cop. I work 60-80 hours a week, and she puts many as many extra hours in at home preparing.We make a comfortable living, but now all these captains of industry (many of whom we went to school with) do nothing but complain about our salaries because it effects their tax bills. This sense of entitlement is absurd. The intrinsic truth regarding the financial industry is that it is based on risk, when the economy is up the industry is up. Now that we are in a down cycle these people need to accept the fact that they will not be compensated as before and stop complaining about how they are perceived. Just because you went to wharton or columbia does not guarantee an enormous salary. What it does seem to guarantee is an enormous ego.

(In my post of 89, I meant to write Pat/16. Agree with the Spitzer comment too)

When I hear wealthy people say that higher taxes penalize them for doing well and that they deserve a more privileged place in life than middle class folks or the working poor, I remind them that their success comes from more than just their individual drive and energy. It's also because they're allowed to take advantage of so many other aspects of the system. The middle class and working poor support them as their customers and their employees. The tax system gives them the roads, bridges, subway stops, buildings and other infrastructure that often allow their businesses to flourish. It also gives tax breaks for donations to their Ivy League universities and other tax benefits for the corporations from which many derive their high incomes. The office of the million-dollar-plus corporate lawyer would be a pretty unproductive and unattractive place if the $25,000-a-year cleaning man didn't come by every night. Finally, average taxpayers today are bailing out many of the wealthy for their mistakes. Many wealthy people, especially successful entrepreneurs providing valuable goods and services, deserve to be proud of their achievements. They just have to understand that they don't do it alone. Henry Ford understood that his success was not only based on his grit and determination. It was also based on the support of his employees to both build and buy his cars, and for other average Americans to be able to afford his products. It's why, early on, he understood the need to pay his workers a living wage that would allow him to sell each one an automobile.

RTC -- sorry but you don't deserve to get paid more than a teacher just because you ignore your family.

this isn't communist russia where you would.

"Going Galt." Good point, Steve.

For people who didn't catch the reference, "Going Galt" refers to John Galt, the Ayan Rand character. In Atlas Shrugged, the "producers and innovators" and captains of industry go on strike and the world grinds to a halt.

These Wharton and Columbia graduates aren't as smart as they think they are and we don't need them. We could get lawyers and accountants who make $300 an hour (and associates who make $100 an hour) who understand these financial systems just as well as the crooks who created them, to unfuse these bombs.

In Europe, especially the Scandinavian countries, there are plenty of executives who very successfully run corporations just as complicated as ours for much lower salaries. We can give them H1-B visas and fire these incompetents.

I keep hearing that the rich will leave New York and leave us poor working slobs, some of us without jobs, floundering because we are no longer the beneficiaries of their trickle down munificence. I really dislike this mental blackmail that seems to be all over the media. Am I supposed to get scared that the rich are not as rich as before? Whatever has happened to them, they are still rich.

I want to say I know a number of people who are wealthy and they are not the spoiled, entitled boors that this economic downturn seems to be exposing. I'm tired of hearing that success equals amount of money you make equals hard working. When some of this wealthy class say they are working smart it means they are exploitive and all they care about is the bottom line on their spreadsheet. And even their so-called generosity to charity is about what's in it for them first.

So, the people who risk their lives doing the arduous work of say, building water tunnels, to provide water for us don't work as hard as the hyperactive profit pusher? Nurses, teachers, manufacturers aren't as important as someone who gambles all day long with other people's money? Yikes. One of the difficulties many of us have with the financial class is their utter arrogance. They really do believe they are more important than other people. The wealth you pretended to create was on paper. Real wealth comes from the sweat of labor. Not from you. Your artificially inflated incomes (and apparently egos) was bound to build the wealth of a very few. I for one am fine if they take their ball and go home. You failed even in the limited job you had.

Taking #72s question as a real question:

The skills of lawyers and financial workers generate more profits -- money and yes, there are many values, but we are talking about money) than other skills. Therefore, those who have such skills earn more than those in other professions that generate lower profits. It's the marketplace, in other words; the same principle working that will induce you to buy a car that gets more miles to the gallon.

Agreed, the people who have these jobs sometimes overestimate their abilities and undervalue those of others. They are, however, "smart," although their definitions of "smart" are far too narrow.

There are surely some people who think they deserve the salary they make, regardless of amount or profession. Others may say that they are right to take advantage of the system that they can exploit. In neither case, though, can they claim to be punished when conditions change such that they are no longer in a position to demand high-flying salaries. That includes the government levying higher taxes.

Taxes are not a punishment of success. It's a recognition that people have earned a lot of money in and are a part of a society that enabled them to do so. They are partially responsible for paying back the favor, just as we all are.

My genuine sympathies to those people and their families who are turning in honest work, not whining about how they aren't going to be able live quite as high as they were but still have their jobs, and catching all of the blame just because they happen to work in the financial sector.

agree frank/16 -- also a few others, looking at the bookshelf (read most in 01 and 02 for background, when i expected the current crisis to hit!: portnoy's "infectious greed," rutherford's "who shot goldilocks", helyar/burrough's "barbarians at the gate" , leon levy's "the mind of wall street", hedrick smith's "The power game," maher's "bull", levine/hoffer's "inside out".

and i loved kouwenhoven's portrait of brown brothers harriman and reich's biography of andre meyer.

i am not an academic so there is possibly no rhyme or reason or agenda to the above books, but they all are rooted in insight, history, first hand experience and a good story.

RCT-

The problem with your argument, as K pointed out is that opportunity is a big factor in this country and it's not at all a level playing field no matter how much you want to pretend that it is.

And quite frankly the anger is directed at the greedy wall street crowd who contributed to this crisis through nothing more than greed. It's directed at the right people. The "system" failed, it needs to be fixed, deal with it.

I think that what we are witnessing is how all these Ivy League MBAs and the institutions that they went to do not work. If they are so brilliant, why couldn't they foresee the collapse and develop financial instruments accordingly. No, they are the one's that in too many ways have hijacked the economy over the years for their peevish sense of entitlement. Enabled by the likes of the Manhattan Institute. I am Keynesian in my perspective, true capitalism requires a large middle class. God bless those that were brilliant enough not to follow the lemming trail from the Ivy League MBA into this collapse. The emperors here have no clothes. And we are all left holding the bag... including these 'pilots' of laissez-faire. The fact of the matter is we don't have to be here and things could have been going as per usual... big homes and all... the party could have continued if the quality of their financial instruments had been more transperant... were they trying to avoid taxation doing this? What galls me is that we don't have to be here... and these 'pilots' of capitalism (more like laissez-faire). Have fired themselves, you have no one blame but yourselves by my reckoning. And we all need to learn from this.

RCT...tut, tut. That was foolish.

People aren't paid what they are worth to society. Does society have a payroll department I'm unaware of?

The people who are paid the most are the people of the most utility to the most monied interests. It's simple. They aren't "creating value" or whatever they like to tell themselves. They are protecting the wealth of nations, corporations, and other, even more dramatically wealthy people. That's all.

Good riddence. Go to another country. This is an example of phenominal erogance. I've met an outstanding number of ignorant wharton and harvard students.
What do they have to give up? They're summer homes?! I say goodbye and good luck in china.
Top 1% pfffft! They will figure out a way not to have to pay taxes anyway.

i work with lawyers, they aren't that smart either.

yh from Brooklyn -
well said!

I am a part-time graduate student at Columbia. I also work for Citigroup. I regularly meet people ate the business schoiol, as well as MBAs from all the top schools at work. I know these people. They are far from stupid, but it's commonly accepted that the brightest people do NOT go to business school. The greediest do. And as the profit motive as become more prominant in medicine, medical schools increasingly attract the same sort: Far from stupid, not the brightest but highly motivated by MONEY.

Whenever I hear the argument that "if we don't pay the financial managers their bonuses, we'll lose the people we need to manage these companies to get us out of the economic slump" I find myself asking two questions:

1. What makes these idiots thinkt that they have demonstrated ANY ability that we NEED to correct the situation -- what makes them think that any decent set of managers with morals and ethics can't do a good enough job of banking to rebuild the economy?

2. Just exactly where do they plan to go if they don't like their lower incomes. I certainly wouldn't hire anybody whose resume shows he was involved in the econmic debacle to do anything challenging - not even to "deliver groceries for Sysco in a big shiny truck."

They may THINK that they are the "Masters of the Universe" but _I_ think they're in for a very rude awakening.

wah, wah, wah, if you have no savings to take you through this tough financial time, shame on you 1%...don't let the doorknob hit ya!

According to that caller Michael, only 1% of this country has any ambition, ha!

What an idiot.

Notice how he made his grandiose statement, probably verbatim from Rush or Hannity.

But when Brian challenged him with follow-up questions, he couldn't articulate a response.

First, Lori is correct; $250,000 per annum does not make your rich, and most of those bashing the "wealthy" are actually earning alot less than $250K and are lumping lawyers and doctors in with hedge fund millionaires.

Secondly, while there is no perfect meritocracy in America, merit does count in obtaining an ivy league education. My parents were the children of immigrants and did not finish high school, but I earned two ivy league degrees and have a good job. I was a scholarship student. What helped me was not greed, influence, power or a tipped playing field, but hard work, good study skills and scholarships and loans. Many students at the "best" schools attend on scholarship; I know, because I taught them when I was a graduate student.

Class hatred is based on thrwarted ambition and the unavailablity of economic help to those in need. The rest is nonsense. You're shooting the wrong people.

could somebody talk about how racist/classist/sexist systems of power are embedded in wallstreet and the comments by the "best and the brightest" as though there has always been a level playing field for all folks.

why are we worried about making rich people mad?
all kinds of poor people are blamed for the failures of the system ... why not blame people in power too?

having gone to a college that produces the workforce for lehman bros. and gang (williams college) i saw people know the minute they entered college that they were going into finance because they were going to make a lot of money and they should make a lot of money. and they were not the best and brightest at all. they were just poised for old + new money success.

that doesn't mean they deserve anything... just means they expect to continue to succeed no matter how much they fail.

The real 'bottom line' test for all these folks who think they are so invaluble is this:
Let's "out source" THEIR jobs to some folks in India -- who would be glad to do 'number crunching' and all the other really hard work -- for 1/10th the pay. And, then see what we lost -- I'll bet nothing would be missed & we would all be better off.

#33

Good point...Bush went to Harvard...are we REALLY going to continue with the fallacy that these people are "the best and brightest" in the face of THAT example????

I went to Columbia (School of the Arts) and paid the same price for my education as the business school students. I will never have the chance to make the sort of money that is made on wall street and will work every bit as hard, if not harder.

I worked on wall street also, as many artists do, as a temp and a secretary - I used to have conversations with them all the time, nobody is all that smart - There is a sense of entitlement - their entitlement to their clients' money. That sense of entitlement is why this happened.

I worked in Wall St and let me tell, the people who made a ton of money weren't smarter than everyone else, they were manipulating the system and milking it dry. The people who brought down the economy should have to pay there bonus back and some should go to jail!!!

Why do law and finance earn higher returns in the marketplace?

I am a physician in NYC who committeed 8 years of post college education to my profession to only earn fractions of my contemporaries who landed Wall Street jobs in the boom straight out of college without any additonal schooling. In that regard I feel wall street was reckless. There are a lot of very intellegent and highly school people in all profession, but salaries don't often match degrees of schooling.

As for the soooo talented people not bothering to make so much money, or going to work for foreign banks, I say: Go right ahead!

antonio
and if they fail they don't get the big pay checks any more. wall streeter are still getting their bonus checks

I've worked 2 jobs now with 65-100 hour work-weeks. Absolutely there is no proportional pay increase for dedication. Also there is No shortage of self-justifications for those that do "luck out" though.

Alex Rodriquez makes a lot and people DO wail about it, especially when the new stadium is financed by tax subsidies. The yankees choose to pay him and can. When the financial people have to be bailed out, people will also wail about high financial salaries subsidized.

I keep hearing references to "the system" as if it is some mystical deity in and of itself. Isn't it (or shouldn't it be) we who determine what system we will live under--economically, politically, socially? The system failed, it's being changed accordingly. Get over it.

I wonder how "punished" (as if taxes are a punishment) you'd feel if you lived during the Eisenhower presidency and its 90%+ marginal tax rates?

the reason we single these people out rather than baseball players or actresses is because these people do their jobs out of greed, not for the love of baseball or acting.
pure greed.

on the segment about biking, a caller suggested that drivers be required to bike NYC before getting a license, as a way of knowing 'the other side' when driving.
it's too bad people who consider themselves 'the best and the brightest' or 'carrying the torch' can't walk in the shoes of the working poor/middle class who never had trust funds or for that matter encouragement as children, and instead began making money at an early age to support their parents' household.

#30: I agree with you totally, that's why I think a max (because we can't trust BUSINESSES to do this) limit on compensation is a start

(no more the 20times least paid employee or CONTRACTOR) on their staff.
(here: http://sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2009/02/obama-salary-caps-yes-limits-no.html

ThIS is a START to having a FAIR living wage

I sure dont have one.... Bet you don't unless you're a 1percenter...

Seriously?! Who was "paying them that much money?" Certainly not the average person. It was the CEOs raising the stakes so they could benefit themselves. Come on - any mention of doctors and Wall Street in the same sentence is absurb.

And Michael - your prejudice is one of the perpetuating problems in this country! The bell weather theory has been repeatedly disproved. Get over YOURSELF!

And that brain surgeon analogy is nonsense. The surgeon saves lives, the bankers have ruined millions of lives. FAIL.

"nuculous"...a real masters of the universe mispronunciation if i ever heard one!

yes, we have you geniuses to fix everything wasted in your path, don't we? please.

I love comments about working hard from "go-getters" sitting at home at 11:30AM. It says everything.

I watched my former college roommate start at Lehman Bros and become bewildered by the money she was making. Her perception of society became completely distorted, and she admitted that she spent money on weekends for therapeutic purposes.

Amazing the mythology built up around a meritocracy. Horatio Alger in '09 is a plainly bewildering phenomenon. The interesting thing would be to see that the skill of ultimate merit is not technical merit, but rather the manouevering of systems and people - Michael would agree. These folks, tending to be anti-intellectual and not so skilled themselves, employ, esp. on wall street the engineers, lib arts folks who hold that angst about not getting paid for that expensive education.

Seems to me the "fighter pilot" mentality is a big part of what got us into this mess.

alex rodriguez and will smith make a ton of money BUT they actually produce something! people come to the ballpark and the movie theatre and buy things, real things and pay for the entertainment these people provide. most i-bankers actually produce nothing except making money off of other peoples money with noactual product.

I'm going to agree with Ed. I was a teacher. Now I'm a lawyer. Teaching was ALOT (sorry to disillusion you, folks) easier; shorter hours, more interesting work, summers free, more control over my time. There are teachers in my family who have twice as much time home with their kids than I ever had as an attorney. Let's stop idealizing canonizing people to validate our own anger and check out reality instead.

Thanks, Wall Street guy. I went to Ivy League schools and am sick of the entitlement that most grads expect from the world.

Plus, the top 1% is often inherited wealth -- it's not about entrepreneurism. Entrepreneurship doesn't have much to do with taxing the uber-wealthy. The tax isn't a penalization -- it's a fair share of what people should owe b/c we have a system that allows these people to make this much money. They don't do it in a vacuum. There's no such thing as the free-market. There are always rules. Let's shift the rules to make it more fair, not less profitable. Fair can equal profit.

"Why should I be punished for being a beneficiary of the system?"
Well, you're not be punished because, or as a direct result of being a beneficiary of the system, you are being punished because you are part of a system that is being punished.

please don't forget they are were they are because of their connection not their skills!!

Yes, I have a college degree and work hard. But, say, the people that toil from sun-up to sun-down, doing outdoor work that would exhaust me, don't work hard? Peole that have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet? Really? Ugh, such arrogance! I had to turn off my radio when my stomach started to churn.

The caller, Michael, is delusional. You cannot value the worth of an individual by their salary or educational history. He generalizes by saying that everybody that didn’t go to college is "lazy" or "has 15 kids". These wealthy people aren't necessarily "ambitious". They're wealthy -- that's it.

Can we all get along (again).
Because whether you like it or not and like to admit it, we DO need each other.
Let's recognize and respect each other for what and who we are, not what we would like to be or are afraid we have all become.
It's not by our thirst for retribution or conptempt for those who have or know less than we do that we can hope to learn from mistakes of the past.

yeah but if a-rod doesn't bring in a championship and julia roberts makes a sucky film the world doesn't come to a near collapse...

No, 11/RTC -- all you have to do is let your failed bank fail.

"Let the banks fail and see what happens?"

Only the overpaid bankers and associated professionals, such as lawyers, say this (and I don't blame them from a purely financial view). I would LOVE to let the banks fail and see what happens! I believe in capitalism and competent banks would be invented OVERNIGHT

This isn't a class issue, but simple morality. Ask your reverend/ rabbi/ imman.

PS Hypercapitalism? Does anybody believe this is capitalism? Capitalism is when investment banks invest in a company and increase its value. DIFFERENT than trading derivatives, chumly.

If these people are so smart, how could they manage to virtually bring down the global banking system and not know it? Furthermore, if they are more important than other types of workers, just remember what happens when sanitation workers go on strike. I would be quite happy to put them in their place. Their arrogance has now cost the taxpayers billions of dollars and I don't really see how they are being punished when multi-million dollar bonuses are still being handed out.

What the hell?! So if we don't give them what they want, they'll leave?! Let them. Let's try running things without the entitled and greedy. They overestimate their limited usefulness.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I hate to burst Michael from Brooklyn's bubble but you will not find "entreprenuers" on Wall Street. They are company men/women who did not want to question the viability of these derivative products because they were making to much cash. Smart, maybe. Greedy, yes.

Thank heavens for the pious saints who used their ivy league degrees to benefit mankind rather than earn a high salary.

Certain fields -- finance, law -- pay higher returns, in return for skills that trade for higher values in the market place. I.e., those skills earn more money for those who purchase the expertise.

If you choose to enter such a field, you pay a price but earn dividends. If you think that a functioning economic system doesn't benefit society as much as biomedical research, check out today's economy, and think again.

The woe-is-me attitude of "wealthy" should just close their mouths.

Our business tanked due to a) a very ill child b) when I was able to return to my business the stock market collapse occured.

Now, we have been using our savings, our portfolio is down 50%, and since we own our own business in NJ, we pay into unemployment insurance, but can't collect it.

We pay $1000/month for health insurance, and have been for 15 years our business has been functioning (decently every year until 2008 when our daughter was diagnosed with bone cancer).

Our priorties, pay off our hospital debt (co-payments go only so far), continue paying our mortgage and insurance. We have no credit card debt.

Those that have a one-income or two-income family should count their blessings.

This two-former-incoming-earning household is struggling.

please
they make money because they deal with money.
they don't work any harder or longer hours than the guy on the corner in the coffee cart.

Do people realize that all this bail-out money is fiat money printed at the fed without backing of gold, or debt? It is basically a hidden tax on our economy. People think that they are getting value when they receive these funds. As a disabled artist I will get $250.00 in stimulation. I realize this is really a hidden tax than will inflate prices and actually lower my purchasing power.

Richard Karnatz

PS: Eat the rich. I hear they are tender. Best to get them young before they build up botox.

I'm going to say something shocking. Teachers do not work long hard hours. Grading papers is not grueling work. A 2 month paid vacation is a 2 month paid vacation.

Thank you Brian for this piece. It is infuriating how the successful blind themselves (willfully or ignorantly or both) to the inequities of life. Yes, there is A relationship between how hard one works and how "smart" one works, but it is far from a straight line. Many of these folks claim that THEY THEMSELVES have accomplished their success and deny the multifarious ways that they've been assisted. Plenty of poor people have worked just as hard and just as "smart" as they have - and might be working poor because they've made ethical decisions for which they have been financially penalized (such as helping out family, or quitting jobs where they didn't like the ethics).

caller
if we "piss them off" the "masters of the universe" where would they go?
take their trust funds to montana? don't think so

I agree with comment #10. 99% of these people are idiots driven to make money for the sake of money and they are dangeorous.

@Karen - you're right. W had a Harvard MBA and that didn't work out so well.

Along with privilege comes responsibility and the "masters" did not act responsibly. The populist anger is based in large part on a sense that they are only out for themselves and have no scruples. That or they do not know what they are doing and lack the courage to admit it.

Don't lump every household that earns $250K or or more in with millionaire hedge fund managers. The concept of the $250K millionaire is absurd, especially in the NYC area. If you have a household of 4 adults, pay NYC metro area income taxes, living costs and real estate taxes, commuting costs and then lump in the cost of most private colleges which tip the scales at $50K plus, there isn't much left.

There are plenty of people who grew up "working class" poor, worked their way through school with loans, etc., and are now middle and upper middle class. That was supposed to be the American dream and many people, not elitists, have worked very hard to achieve this status. Paying close to 50% in earnings (given state and federal taxes and AMT) is more than adequate.

You are unfairly and inappropriately lumping everyone together.

I work freelance - I deal with dozens of big corporations - I see the same pattern in almost EVERY company: the higher the pay the less they work. It's almost a mathematical formula. The highest paid people are always taking vacations and dealing with personal stuff during the day while the lowest paid people work like DOGS for a tiny fraction of what the execs get paid. The lower paid employees also NEVER complain (that I'VE SEEN) THEY JUST DO THEIR JOB WHILE THE HIGHLY PAID PEOPLE COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME about every little thing, "Starbucks messed up my order again! I need to go home, I have a headache..."

I am appalled at these 1 percenters.

Many of us went to top tier schools, Ivy and otherwise. How is it that all of a sudden we are characterizing the rich as the "best and brightest." Anyone, in fact who attended such a school very quickly realizes that the rich kids are NOT the smartest kids. And then after we graduate from Harvard or Columbia, somehow the kids who prostitute themselves, throwing themselves forward into careers revolving around unabashed greed, are the MERITOCRACY. That is insanity. Myself and a number of my friends have gone Ivy, to become journalists, doctors, think tankers, political administrators. Not because we wanted money, but because we want to impact the world in a positive way. You losers chased money, ruined the world, and now are mad because we amongst the rabble (with the same degrees as you) no longer have to quietly assume that your work merits your wealth. Hang your heads in shame.

The wealthy are merely those with the most perverted values in any society.

Michael is RIDUICULOUS!
If these people are so smart why did they MESS UP THINGS SO BADLY?? GREED and INDIFFERENCE to the effects of their actions is the real cause.
There ought to be a RETROACTIVE fine/tax charged to those thta made all these enormous amounts over the past 5 years.
(By the way I have a masters and most of my family have at least 2 degrees.)

people like the caller michael are the reason we had the economic collapse. basically saying people are poor because they are lazy. how does a person grow to hold such opinions? instead of getting to the bottom of the collapse, we need to get to the bottom of the psychological make up of people like michael.

"Why should I be punished for doing well?" Well you didn't do so well, did you? You created a global economic recession, if not depression.

Why should folks that graduate with business degrees be considered "the best and brightest" of our society? They are simply the greediest and driven to make money. The true best and the brightest are generally middle-class and are driven to employ themselves in ways that help society, not just themselves. They check their blackberries just as often, even at 2am, because the infrastructure jobs they work on are running 24 hours a day.

Here Here #6

gIVE ME A break, "most ambitious" (best/brightest)

Go away. let us have our 15 kids family

We need absolute reform in this country

I have a ten point program to reform the country HERE.

AND I propose two specific programs for the rich

a) a Minimum Millionaire tax here:
http://sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2009/02/obama-salary-caps-yes-limits-no.html
(a minimum tax based on GROSS income...

b) a limit to compensation to NO MORE THEN 20% the salary of the LOWEST paid worker
(see here: (see here: http://sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2009/02/obama-salary-caps-yes-limits-no.html

How about that???

producers?
Brian?

My ideas of last year are coming up to the top of the pile now...
care to comment?

The students in my graduating class at Harvard who had no real direction often opted for a very secure investment banking track that guaranteed them quick large salaries straight out of college, whereas the more interesting and ambitious students chose much more interesting and ambitious careers.

The word "smart", as in "working smart" versus "working hard",
does not have the same meaning as the myriad of meanings of intelligent, intellectual, brilliant, innovative, inspired and inspiring, creatively thinking outside the box - could go on obviously indefinitely...

I think if your guest spent ONE day doing work as perhaps a garbage collector or dishwasher, he MIGHT change his mind. I could be wrong about his ability to open his mind. But he is so VERY wrong about lower income people working hard. Just one day...

How insensitive and out of touch these privileged people are! It's revolting. I think we can certainly do without them - god forbid we should enrage them! Pathetic!

I also went to Princeton and have a PhD, could have gone into investing banking, but decided to be a biomedical researcher. I work as hard as anybody in Wall Street and make 1/10th of what I could have for personal satisfaction. The only difference between people who went into Wall Street in college and the rest of us was that their goal in life was to make money.

These people broke the world, and now they want us to feel sorry for them? Let them go "John Galt" - we're better off without them. Others can be found to do their jobs, and do them better.

P.S. That quote from John Mack can be found in "F.I.A.S.C.O. The Inside Story of a Wall Street Trader", by Frank Partnoy.

Everyone should read this book, so that they can get really mad and get our legislators to do something.

We need a special prosecutor. Elliot Spitzer is available.

The deal Giuliani and now Bloomberg made w NYC's financial houses is this:

base yourselves in this city and we won't charge you corporate taxes.

The logic is that the city will benefit, albiet less directly, from the plethora of high salaried jobs and associated personal income taxes and sales taxes. The first thing their bosses did -- as soon as technology allowed them -- was to shed all outsource-able jobs to India, Bulgaria, Philippines etc.

So the remaining employees -- bungling, arrogant middlemen and analysts all -- are furious that they must pay taxes, unlike their benefactor-employers? To the corporate-wealthy -- review your legacies.

My husband is a portfolio manager at a hedge fund, and this past Christmas when spending time with extended family he found himself acting as a scapegoat for all the rage his relatives had toward Wall Street, and awas constantly put on the defensive. Recently when he was traveling to London on business during the G20, he was warned not to wear a suit, use his Blackberry, or make any other sign that might point to his status as a banker. It is a witchunt out there currently.

Why do we assume that offering money brings in the "best and the brightest"? It seems to me that what you get are the greediest, not the best.

MBA from Ivy League equals "smart"?
pulease.

It wasn't even a generation ago that the world of PhD's looked down their nose on business majors from Harvard.

Compulsively ambition also does not equal smart

I'm totally tired of class-bashing such as the comment above. Going to college and graduate school and getting a good job doesn't make you evil. The "guy from Freddie Mac" was hounded to death and has a five-year old daughter. Bullying people who work in the financial sector is just as despicable as bullying kids in middle-school or depriving those adults who committed suicide of their jobs and savings. Moreover, we have indeed been reading and hearing about the latter in the media every day.

If you want to level the playing field, okay. I'll quit my job and, next time that you need a lawyer, call your garbage collector.

Brian-- I work with these "smart, ambitious" people every single day. 99% of them are idiots. It's like that 30 Rock where Jack hires the bankers: "They have no skills, but they try so hard!"

of course they're expressing rage instead of shame. That's because "offense is the best defence".

Here's a quote from John Mack of Morgan Stanley: "There's blood in the water. Let's go kill somebody." refering to the losses suffered by corporations who bought the fraudulent derivitives and then lost money. Let's go destroy some more companies and make more money off of it.

They're all crooks. They shouldn't be rewarded for they're performance, they should be incarcerated. And they know it.

I generally resent the tired phrase, "the best and the brightest," for what I hope are obvious reasons.

some of us have very expensive educations and degrees, but because we didn't study finance, we get paid like the guy down the block. grow up and come back to earth with the rest of us still paying off our student loans from Columbia and Penn.

Is this segment's purpose just to piss everyone off?

Give me a break. Learn to deal with reality.

Some of these guys say they deserve their big bonuses because they work long hours. Many teachers work long hours. Soldiers, policemen, and firemen risk their lives. These people and many other ordinary Americans do not feel entitled to such large bonuses because they work hard. Do they work because they love their job or because they love the money.

They're lucky all they've lost so far is face and status (they certainly haven't lost bonuses or income) - if things keep going down the angry mobs will demand blood.

The guy from Freddie Mac killed himself and while that is tragic, many "common" americans have committed suicide due to the downturn in the economy, most who were worse off than him, and they do not get nearly as much attention. There is a serious deficit in this society when it comes to who's life is valued.