having raised a child in a suburban town where many of my sons friends were with him from K thru 12, and nearly everyone went on to college, it is instructive to hear of Mr Canada's work. what is especially interesting is that what his poor kids need is NOT something that the US needs to do for everyone (we in Whippany NJ didn't need baby college or training in parenting) on the other hand, it probably should provide incentive for states to do what he does for kids is at risk communities. but even more so, whatever we spend on testing and monitoring in middle class schools is probably wasted, since these districts DON'T need help at all.

I see that Barack Obama's education policy is that everyone should learn a foreign language, but which one should it be?

The British learn French, the Australians study Japanese, and the Americans prefer Spanish.Yet this leaves Mandarin Chinese out of the equation.

Interestingly nine British MP's have nominated Esperanto for the Nobel Peace Prize 2008.

An interesting video can be seen at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8837438938991452670

Otherwise http://www.lernu.net ?

My kids attended a "good high school" but I found that, except for a very few kids, most studnets were interested in only putting a minimum effort into their academics. Parents often complained to the school about the amount of homework the kids had.

Grade inflation is rampant which serves no one. My older daughter had almost exactly the same cumulative average as I did in high school but I was in the top 17% of my class and she was in the top 48% of hers. However, since she was a "B+" students she thought of herself as a good student.

Found this segment really smart and inspiring----but as education is such an important issue, as Brian rightly points out, I'd love to see you give it TWO days. Today you concentrated on public education for K-12. How about a segment on the state of higher education, and what the candidates will do to make college more affordable?

BTW, Geoff Canada DOES favor paying teachers significantly more. He thinks good teachers should be treated like rock stars---or at like doctors and lawyers. I heard him on Fresh Air as well, and he was pretty direct about the need to recruit talent and pay teachers well.

[[FYI, Anna - We are looking at college affordability and other higher education issues on October 15th. -BL Show-]]

We no longer educate our students. We engage them in exploring feelings and promote pride of every kind, especially in urban areas.

As stated in post #53, passion has replaced reason. I've observed students who are very quick to assert their feelings on a topic without hardly any factual knowledge or historical understanding of the topic.

Our focus needs to "return" to the content of what is being taught instead asking for more and more dollars every year.

Can't ignore how the educational system has contributed to, perpetuated, and been perpetuated by the current Wall Street situation. Americans are last in math and science, yet they race through school with their eye on a high paying job that really does not benefit anyone but themselves, and certianly not society. Maybe the poor math performance resulted in not grasping the basic principles of finance and leads to greed and the destruction of the economy. The education system should teach self control, responsibility, and how impoortant it is to function as a member of society, not a leech on it. Radical concept i know, but its obviously not being taught at home.

I HAVE GONE THROUGH 3 YEARS OF POLISH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL (1ST TO BEGINNING OF 4TH). MY 4TH YEAR AND 5TH YEAR WERE IN GERMANY. UPON ARRIVING IN USA I SKIPPED 6TH GRADE AND ENTERED THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AT THE END OF 7TH GARADE.
WITH THE EDUCATION I GAINED IN POLAND (UNTIL THE END OF 3RG GRADE) I WAS ABLE TO FORGO STUDYING MATHEMATICS, GEOGRAPHY AND OTHER SCIENCES UNTIL HIGH SCHOOL. I LEARNED IN 3RG GRADE MATH WHAT KIDS IN 9TH AND 10TH GRADES WERE LEARNING IN NEW JERSEY. (GERMAN SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS BEHIND IN MATHEMATICS - SO I REVIEWED THE SAME MATERIAL IN 3 COUNTRIES AT DIFFERENT TIMES)
THE SYSTEM NEEDS A FUNDAMENTAL RETHINKING. CHILDREN ARE CAPABLE OF LEARNING AT A MUCH STEEPER CURVE THAN CURRENTLY APPLIED TO THEM. I SPENT TIME OUTSIDE ENJOYING SPORTS AND PLAYING WITH OTHERS AS MUCH AS ANY KID OF THAT AGE. AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE TO CALL MYSELF A GENIUS, I AM NOT! CHILDREN SHOULD BE CHALLENGED AND THEY CAN HANDLE IT. BUT IF YOU TEACH A 10TH GRADER WHAT A COMMON DENOMINATOR IS THAN NO WONDER THAT WE IN USA HAVE FALLEN BEHIND. A FRIGHTENING PROPOSAL TO SEND MY CHILDREN TO SCHOOL HERE. ( I DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF MONEY I NEED FOR EXETER)

Small point: While I don't deny that there are significant problems with our educational system, it's not clear to me what these anecdotal stories from other cultures demonstrate. In particular, are we comparing apples to apples or talking to relatively privileged groups with access to resources in their home countries? As stated in previous comment(s) in some countries children with "academic" abilities are identified early and tracked into academic programs while other children are tracked to more vocational endeavors. Also, in many countries education is available to only a portion of the population; many children have no access to education of any sort.

I'm not arguing that the United States should compete "down," and clearly there is much that is effective about the education that is available in countries like India, for just one example. But there are more questions to ask about the anecdotes when comparing our educational system with a country where tens of millions of children have no access to education at all and with a literacy rate of about 79%.

btw, that principal arrested for tax fraud...that happened two years ago. She's back as principal at one of our public schools.

I think one part of the problem is cultural, as Simon pointed out above. It's not cool to be smart, passion is valued over reason, and we want to vote for a president/VP because he or she is "like us" as opposed to intelligent, educated, or qualified. But there's not just one reason, of course. We're always looking for the One Big Thing that will Fix The Problem, but it seems to me that a cumulative approach, like that of Geoffrey Canada's, is more likely to give us the results we want. I know that in part I've done well in school and in life because my parents and grandparents did. I expect my son will do well also, and in large part for the same reason. I think whatever can be done to establish generational scholastic success in a broad section of our society will help a lot. That, and getting rid of cable TV ;-)

Speaking of ignorant administrators....one of my principals asserts that she handed me a reading "curriculum" to follow. All it was was a list of suggested books to read to the kids and a description of a read-along method.

My other administrator stated that "anyone can teach recorder." She was arrested for tax fraud.

I have always felt that Americans are basically anti-intellectual, a fact that is reflected all to often in the political leadership. I have also never understood why Americans, so proud of their immigrant heritage in most cases, have such limited language skills (in English as well as second languages).

I HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE -- BEING JUMPED FROM 9TH TO 10TH GRADE WHEN I MOVED TO THE USA AND NOT REALLY ENCOUNTERING A NEW TOPIC IN MATH OR SCIENCE TIL I HIT 12TH GRADE -- AND I CAME FROM A PUBLIC SCHOOL IN MEXICO CITY (50 PEOPLE PER CLASS AVERAGE) IN THE MID 60s!!

IT WASN'T THAT WE HAD ALL GREAT TEACHERS, IT WAS WE KNOW WE WERE THERE TO LEARN.

I don't think a "sense of urgency" as one of your guests put it, is necessarily good for children.

iran literacy 77%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/ir.html

What is a “fair” salary for teachers #34, Christopher from Manhattan?
I know many people in the private sector with extremely demanding jobs that require extensive training or education who make a comfortable salary, but aren’t going to get rich on doing what they love doing. Some of these people, when comparing the total package of salary and benefits, make the same or less than a teacher with an equivalent amount of time in the job market. But they make what the market will support, and they do it because they love it. How do you determine what educators should make, especially when it depends on the tax base?

thank you dennis above; it is scandalous that a creationist is running for higher office.

When I was in high school, I met a man who was very successful in the computer technology profession. He was there training to become a school choral director. So, there are people out there who are willing to "trade in" their respectable careers to become educators, at least for a little while.

I worked n a priate school - middle and high school for many years. Most of the very excellent s=teachers there do NOT have teaching certification. Instead, they usuallly have Masters adn PhDs and they have a lot of love for their field and feel the joy of teaching in the field they love and really know. It's not perfect, but I know I would never go through the sill requirements and partonizing BS required to work in the public schools. I have a great friend with two masters who teaches in a public school where he is infantalized by the administration and also by being told over and over again that he needs to take a class or another test to make sure he is certified or he will be fired. Hie is one of the highest rated teachers on rate my theacher (which I do not really support, but...) anyway - those who can will teach if they are treated with respect and not made to jump through ever higher and ill-shaped hoops to snag a lousy paying job!

I work in the education system in Newark, NJ. I was brought up in the Catholic school system in NY many years ago. I think one of the worst policies developed years back across country is "social promotion." Social promotion allows children without adequate skills to pass to a harder grade where they cannot get those skills. It allows teachers who are poorly prepared to pass their poor work onto the next grade. It allows parents to be misguided that their child is doing well enough. And allows children to "check-out" of a system that pays them no intelligent or respectful attention. While we say that we are attending to their needs, we in fact, are not.

I'm an immigrant who went to a "good" college here (ranked 3rd nationally), and found that the college-level science and math classes there were covering materials my high school had covered 2 to 4 years prior.

The culture here has an emphasis on entitlement (fight for what you want, rather than work for what you want), one-dimensional thinking (there are two sides to every issue, no need to consider a 3rd or 4th side), equating opinion and conclusion (how often I have heard a student "argue" for his conclusion), and a general sense that values enthusiasm over deliberation (it's more important to be passionate than right). Critical reasoning skills are not as valued if you are encouraged to fight and argue rather than work and reason.

The problem with education is much, much deeper than politics - it has to do with your culture.

We're not just behind in education:

"Short North Koreans . . . and Americans"
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/short-north-koreans-and-americans/?hp

I completely agree w/the posters who point out that knowing your field doesn't mean you're good at teaching it. On the other hand, many years ago I edited some articles on educational research. It was some of the most densely jargoned prose it has ever been my displeasure to deal with, & I decided that wasn't an area of editing I wanted to work in. Unless things have changed a lot since then, but I think that ingrown theoretical approach has been part of the problem w/American education.

not sure if anyone has mentioned the effect of culture, specifically that of the so-called 'dumbing down' of our culture: reality shows, computer games, etc. which consume a large amount of time children would otherwise spend reading or engaging in learning about the world.

As far as foreign countries are concerned, does California before Reagan count?

California at that time had the best (and free) educational system in the country, possibly the world. I paid $109 tuition per semester at the University of California in 1965.

The way Ireland became so successful was thru education.

By having a well educated worked force, Ireland was able to attract foreign companies, ie Intel.

There is nothing wronmg with the educational system in this country , there is nothing wrong with anything in this country. This is the greatest country in the world and despite what ever problem swe probably don't ha,e we cant and should not "learn " anything from anybody. I object to this whole notion of learning, its just a bunch of elites telling us what to do. John McCain and the republican party will make sure we stay on the solid path we are on now.

How can we keep up with the rest of the world in science when the Republican Vic Presidential candidate believes the earth is 6000 years old?

McCain's comment at the beginning of this segment, averring that certification is what is holding people back from becoming teachers, is absurd. It is both pay and prestige that keep people from becoming teachers. Unions need to keep fighting for better pay, and society needs to value teachers more, both monetarily and with regard to status.
And as for those Nobel laureates, who all work for universities anyway, why should they work for public school salaries? Why do the free market principles of so many republicans always defy reason? The price any Nobel Laureate could set would be far above the entry (or even the retiring) salary of a public school teacher.

So after deregulating the finance and insurance sector, the results being what they are, people are now talking about de-regulating education next?

Isn't this rather a gift towards home-schooling creationists and shouldn't you rather steer this into the right direcetion by increasing incentives in the right places?

I noted a "This American Life" show yesterday that pointed out that kids can't learn because poor families do not teach communication and negotiating skills to their pre-schoolers. The program decribed on the show aimed at very young mothers and taught them how to interact with their babies so as to teach those kids to use language, develop self-discipline and otherwise prepare themselves to "learn."

Don't you think that education should begin in our communities and should address the parents as well as the kids?

Any expert on anything who wants to be taken seriously should stop talking like a 13-year-old Valley Girl, making every statement sound like a question. It makes me instantly dismiss what she's saying. If she's not sure, why should I be?

I find discussions of educational initiatives confusingly vague, and find myself wondering what, specifically, are we working on? I mean, do we want kids to aquire more facts, or do we want them to learn to think and problem-solve more effectively? If the former, it's measurable by testing. If the latter, how do you measure? Does "improving our educational system" include creating motivation in the kids, or even peer pressure? This issue is so diffuse, so hard to get a handle on!

I have a desire to fly, and I understand how wings work. But that doesn't mean I can fly.

RE: McCain's assertion that you don't need an education in education to teach

At the university level, professors are NOT required to have a degree in education to teach, say, thermal fluids engineering or chemistry. I have had a few professors who, while brilliant in their respective fields, were unable to communicate that knowledge to students. As a college student, I was able to take responsibility for my own education and go on to read the textbook carefully, seek extra help, talk with other students, meet with teaching assistants, and I managed to get by, but not nearly as well as when I had a gifted educator giving the lecture. This was certainly the exception rather than the rule at RPI - one of the reasons I went there. We can't have teachers like that at the high school level - the kids aren't mature enough to put in the kind of effort required, and there aren't teaching assistants to ask.

I respectfully disagree #8 on providing compensation (by way of tax breaks) to homeschoolers. I understand the premise, but homeschooling is a choice. I, as a tax payer without children, help pay for the public education system (and feel it is an extremely important investment) and resent talking about education money as if it is a limitless resource from the ether which parents have the sole voice in determining its use. Having educated children benefits all of society, and all of society should have a voice in educating our future.

On another note, I know unions don’t like criticism, but not every teacher is a good teacher, and there seem to be some who’s primary concern is job security and a pay check… not the children. Forcing out bad teachers. And #14… I think part of the issue with treating teachers as “professionals” is the union system. It seems like issues like tenure, collective bargaining, and other big issues stand in the way. Do you agree?

I think the reason administrators and politicians, etc., have an issue with teachers and unions is that they don't have the knowledge, communication skills or ability to motivate teachers to do their best. It's easier just to get rid of teachers who don't seem to succeeding with certain populations. Unions have very good teachers, and they are there to protect them from the abuse of ignorant administrators.

I have heard that in other countries kids who show little aptitude for higher level academics are directed onto other tracks much earlier than in the US.

I think that the underlying belief that an individual can make something of him/herself keeps us pouring resources into the system to help sustain children as they grow and develop and hopefully reach their own highest potential. This may be less efficient, but I believe that in the long run we do help more children achieve a better life.

Do you think this might explain part of why other countries top in math, science, etc.?

is the problem with no child left behind too much testing or too little? does a small number of high stakes tests make each test too important?

I have a degree in chemical engineering from MIT. I would be a terrible math teacher. Knowledge is not enough.

Being an expert in a field does not mean that you are able to teach it, no matter what McCain says.

Who was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan? Does that mean that he'd be a good coach?

Frankly, the kind of knowledge that real experts have in a field are far in excess of what is needed to teach primary, middle or high school. And the kind of clarity, patience, empathy and understanding that teachers need are not required in most other fields.

And while I am critical of most teach prep programs, it is ridiculous to think that they are superfluous. Only those who don't understand what teaching really requires think that it doesn't need any preparation.

Ask McCain if the flight simulator on my computer is sufficient training to fly a fighter jet. Of course he's say "no." He understand what it takes to fly a fighter jet.

If we slowly moved novice teachers from a highly structured/low responsibility position to one where they were fully responsible for their classes, with lots of support along the way, we wouldn't need teacher prep as we do. But we don't do that in the schools. We throw them right in with full responsibility with very little support. And so, we need to train them ahead of time.

This may be the only thing that I agree with JM on. I have a Math degree and can't manage to get a job in any inner city school. So I'm still an accountant even though I have strong desire to teach because my mother was a nath teacher for 35 years.

is being good at something the same talent as being good at helping others to become good at it?

I agree with a comment of Mr. Canada's: even our best schools cannot compete internationally. I am retired math teacher from a high school that consistently ranks in the top 100 US schools. I could not believe this ranking, because the vast majority of our graduates had only the barest understanding of fundamental mathematical concepts. They were tutored to pass tests and then promptly forgot what they had "learned". Parental pressure resulted in policies such as a review packet for midterms and finals that included VERBATIM the questions on the test.

Whenever I had students from anywhere else in the world, regardless of language difficulties, their abilities, self-motivation, and study skills were far superior to the US norm.

I'm sure any school would be happy to hire a Nobel Prize recipient if ever he or she wanted to become a public school teacher.

The discussion about Soviet education credited "totalitarian" government for better education outcomes, but the more relevant word I think would be "egalitarian" government.

When you played the Obama clip, I was thinking, but you can't just tell the parents they have to take responsibility. Many parents don't have the resources--financial & emotional--to support their children adequately so the kids can do well in school, or just don't know how. But I heard Geoffrey Canada on "Fresh Air" 2 weeks ago, & it certainly sounds like his HCZ program addresses that aspect, working w/parents to change the way they deal w/their children (although I'm not sure how much they can help parents who work multiple jobs & come home too late or too tired to help their children they way they'd like to).

I love the Harlem Children's Zone and the holistic approach it takes. I do not doubt for a second that this is the only way to bring poor urban kids up to the level of educational success that they deserve.

But spending 1/3 of the education segment on the HCZ betrays the 30 Issues idea. Canada and Tough are doing the PR for their book.

It would have been much more informative to bring in someone who could clarify policies and conditions more generally.

Teachers are invaluable to the development of our children and subsequently to our future. I think the best way to fix the public education system is treat teachers like the professionals that they are. You will attract better more qualified teachers and have lower turnover.

None of this matters without JOBS.

We don't need college educated workers to man the order-taker-window at Taco Bell.

We are caught in a cycle where we have exported all of our good working class jobs, hollowing out the core of our economy. There is no demand for skilled "trade" education as a result.

And, as of today, there is less demand for "financial analysts". ;)

correction--"enrichment". My apologies, I was educated in the US. LOL!

What does "Whatever it takes" refer to, inside the schools?

It clearly means -- as it means in so many charter schools -- excessive hours (60+? 80+) and teachers spending their own money to equip their classrooms.

At his schools, it means that 70% of a teacher's evaluation is based on test results that supervisors are not knowledgeable enough to really understand.

That is not a recipe for sustained improvement. It's a recipe for short-term results at the expense of long term and meaningful educational reform.

So tired of the teacher-bashing. Just as they'd have you believe that "earmarks" are breaking our budget (less than 1%), the powers that be (GOP) are hanging the complete failure of our education system on teachers. It's the new axis of evil: Teachers, Earmarks, and Community Organizers.

The issue is more than a funding and accountability. That is nothing more than throwing money and threats at an issue, neither of which is a real solution. The issue is that education in this country is vilified and ignorance is praised. Throwing money at this isn’t going to motivate students, encourage parents to help their children, or make union-protected inadequate teachers into better instructors.

As an additional incentive for better education and more importantly, more involvement on the part of parents the government at the local level should be providing compensating via lower taxes to Homeschoolers and parents who engage in inrichment activities with their public school students.

As in the clip from Obama, where does parental responsibility fit? It seems by there rigor, charter schools seem to be both school and parent. But is it sustainable. It seems to me that the issue of kids college and getting parents to be involved is a key to the solution.

Brian

This weekend I was at a flea market and found a book "Math Handbook for Machinists"

It was dusty, leather bound -- from the 1930s.

It had more math in it than all of my high school textbooks -- up to and including calculus.

How far we have fallen.

We need to EDUCATE people, not neccessarily send them to college!!

America's kids doing worse in science than those abroad? Gee... how did this happen? Oh yeah, we have the leader of this country state that he feels "creationism", oh, excuse me, "intelligent design", should be taught in science classrooms.
And now we have a republican vice-presidential candidate who openly declares herself to be a "creationist".
Even on WBAI, of all places, I heard a host recently break out into hysterics on the Super Collider recently completed, crying over the possibility of "black holes doing horrific damage to our planet" and rambling on about chaos theory in a way that showed such a complete ignorance about it that my mouth literally dropped open in amazement, and shame.

How important is education?

Is it ok to demand so much of educators that a high % of them burnout, because the kids' futures matter so much? Or, do the rights and dignity of the people who work in education factor into the discussion.

Your guest, the administration and many who don't work in schools do not think that the rights and dignity of educators should even be a factor in the discussion.

How can be base our educational system on testing when we don't do anything to ensure the quality and proper use of the tests?

How many educators or policy-makers know anything how formal test design, construction or interpretation? People say that its ok to teach to the test if its a good test. How many educators or policy-makers know what it takes to design a good test?

The field is called psychometrics. No one from that field was brought in when NCLB was written, and schools and districts don't employ them, either. That would like passing a financial bailout bill without consulting with economists.

ps: complete link for education post:
sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2008/09/ topic-of-week-education.html
remove space between the slash and the word "topic"

everything in my blog eventually deals with education, INCLUDING my plan for A MANDATORY DRAFT after high school, or age 17, whichever comes last.

The mandatory draft/alternative service plan will also serve as job training, and will also help
to rebuild the infrastructure in our country...
look here:
sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2008/09/ topic-of-week-mandatory-draft.html
(remove space from "topic")

I love Geoffrey Canada.

I agree totally with his project.
(look here: sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2008/09/topic-of-week-education.html

essentially I also propose that :

we need to start education EARLY
like (I feel strongly) starting at SIX months.

and this (similar to Mr. Canada's group)
also emphasizes PARENT Education as a KEY part of educating the CHILD.

I feel that federally paid Locally provided (like the HCZ)Child care is the ONE way we can ensure we don't lose any more generations of children.

please comment.
This is only ONE of 11 proposals that I feel can REjuvinate our country.
They are ALL interconnected too!